Does anybody know of any source of a few easy tunes with b/c fingerings notated? For someone just starting the box.
I found some great ones here: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.speek/irishbox/finger.html but they are for c#/d. I'm having fun playing them but I think they're coming out in pretty strange keys on the b/c box.
Hi Paul,
I play the B/C box a little bit but the fingerings you refer to are vastly different from the fingerings I would use though I admit I have never had any lessons. One thing I have learned from playing the fiddle is that if you learn a tune with the wrong/inferior bowing/fingering it takes time to unlearn it and then you have to start again. Try to get some fingerings from aB/C player. I am sure there are basic principles such as thinking ahead to where your fingers need to be for the next phrase. I don't think playing several consecutive notes with the same finger is a good idea because it slows you down.
If you watch box players their hands don't chase up and down the keyboard. Also a C#/D box requires a lot more bellows changes than a B/C.
Good Luck,
Ian.
I'm assuming that the C#/D box is the same relationships as the B/C, just transposed? When I play the Hans Speek tunes I'm just following the button numbering, ignoring the notes. It seems to be logical fingering (like I would know!) but the tune comes out a tone below the key of the dots, e.g. Silver Spire comes out in C.
Then, I was listening to Sharon Shannon's Silver Spire and it comes out in E. Presumably she's using a key of D fingering from a B/C box, but playing it on a C#/D box???
i'm actually not sure because i haven't played c#/d and i don't feel like searching right now to find out, but i don't know if the fingerings would be the same. i guess what i did when i started learning (i've been playing for about a year) was just playing D scales to get familiar with the format, and then i do tunes in d that mostly fall within the easy octave and a half range from D up to high a. one of the nice things about the B/C box is that the way the notes are arranged works very well for tunes in D and G which make up the majority of irish tunes, so you may want to stick to those keys and take advantage of that.
usually, because of the way tunes move around, you can use your second or third fingers to play notes and then you can sort of run circles around that central finger for the other notes. pretty much everyone will have different fingerings by a little bit. it's not a standardized thing like fiddle or whistle, it's just a matter of what's easiest for you. the only thing you don't want to do is really twist your fingers around each other.
i hope this was helpful, although it's not quite what you asked. if you want me to write out the fingerings i use for some tune you know i can.
Thanks, heth, that's really generous of you but sounds like tedious work! I've found I can get a copy of the Williams video through the library (in Edmonton, Alberta, who would have thought?) so that should get me going.
Hi Paul,
I've thought some more about this and playing in the key of D is significantly different on aC#/D box. All the notes are on the inside row whereas on the B/C box you have to cross rows for two of the notes. This is bound to alter the fingerings. Try playing a tune in the key of C on the B/C box and that will be like playing in D on the C#/D box. As I said before it is important to learn a tune with fingerings you can speed up later.Stick to a few tunes and get them right. The temptation is to try lots of tunes most of which you will have to relearn later as your technique improves.
And then there's the left hand!
Good Luck,
Ian.
Hi Paul,
If you look at Han Speek's first tune Off To California you will see that the first three notes of the tune proper are fingered 222. That is because on the C#/D box they are all played on the same button in/out/in or out/in/out. On the B/C box you are using two buttons to play these notes so it would be 212. So be very wary of following those fingerings.
I have heard that a comprehensive tutor for B/C box is to be published later this year. I look forward to getting hold of it.
Good Luck,
Ian.
Paul,
I wouldn't get too hung up on fingering system. I have met one teacher who was very into this sort of thing. But others just concentrate on the tune and will point out if your chosen fingering is causing a problem only when it actually is - its a personal thing. Different players will vary but as Heth says, avoid having to cross your fingers. Also, although difficult early on, don't ignore your little finger - as skill improves it helps out in all sorts of ways.
Finally, whenever I find myself making the same mistake repeatedly, I stop, slow down and look at my fingering and see if if a better choice of movement would suit. Trust this helps.
Hussar, why do you say avoid crossing your fingers? (I assume you don't mean "don't trust to luck.")
ImM teaching myself the C#/D box (nobody to learn from for hundreds of miles and no teaching materials anywhere - to Speek of ). For some passages involving row-crossing I've found that crossing the fingers makes things a great deal easier, more fluid and I think logical.
It also seems to tie in with the way you move around on the piano keyboard (dim memories of about three piano lessons I had as a small child chiming in here).
To give one simple example, to use the "magic note" of F# on the outer row (E on your B/C) in passages such as G-F-#E (Fnat-E-D for you) I use 3-1-2. The shape and length of my fingers seems to preclude any other way of playing this passage reliably.
This then frees up my index to play the next note going down the scale when needed, i.e. G-F#-E-D (Fnat-E-D-C) = 3-1-2-1
If I need to keep going down the scale, say with Cnat-B-G (B-A-Fnat) I would then cross again using 3-2-1 for these next few notes.
Any comments? As I say I am working in complete isolation and am interested to know what experienced players do and why.
Steve,
I would not care to classify myself as an 'experienced' player but I do know that when my fingers (partic. forefinger and middle) start crossing, that I tend to be more likely to trip up. Better to hop or slide the finger across from inside to outside row - doesn't work in reverse though. Your hand can move crab like up and down the fingerboard shuffling one finger behind the next but I would't call this crossing! When I get out the box this evening to play, I'll check your points and think about it!!!! Best wishes from Wexford.
Barry.
i think hussar pretty much covered what i was trying to say. just run with the notes and don't worry about the fingerings too much--whatever works comfortably and up to speed is gonna be fine.
Steve,
did have a look at your query re fingering last night. Can't see any problem with that - it's like moving your crab like, shuffling sideways up and down the keyboard, rather than crossing fingers. Mind you, when I played that sequence of buttons, I was inclined to use 3-2-3-2-2-1-1 on your fingering system. The way I'd look at it is that if your hand is comfortable playing a tune and the ryhthm is right, then what you are doing must be correct for you. As one gains experience and start to add in triplets and rolls, then one will need to adjust and perhaps change fingering to make it more fluid. As mentioned, I met one tutor who was very keen that her fingering was followed for a tune she was teaching and watched it like a hawk!! Her point was that although she was teaching the tune 'straight', that her system would more easily allow for ornamentation when that came to be added. But I don't know, getting the rhythm and flow of the tune is much more important it seems to me rather than concentrating of what particular finger you are using on any given button. If you are having trouble with the rhythm or hitting the wrong note consistently, then its time to stop and look at the fingers.
One last point, when you watch a good box player .. look at the position of the thumb in the groove. From a given position of the thumb, most players can play from a low D button to high D button (B/C) comfortably with a stretch either way for an odd note. So for the first and usually lower pitched part A of a tune, the thumb is here. For the higher pitched Part B, the thumb slides up to where the high B button can be comfortably reached. The thumb slides up and down, up and down the groove as you go along from A to B etc. returning each time to the exact point. This allows you to 'know' where any given button is without looking for it.
Yeah, The Wounded Hussar is a great air - I just happned to be listening to it when signing on here!! I hate passwords and user names so it was as good as any!
Thanks for the input Barry and the thought that went into it. WIll have a look at what I'm doing with the right thumb, although I'm surprised at how quickly a sense of what button is where develops. (But when you hit the wrong one, the results can sometimes be hilarious!)
As you say, to a great extent I think it has to be a question what works for you - not everyone's fingers have the same width, shape, or length relative to the other fingers. And yes, that word flow again, that's what matters.
I suppose I will have to adjust if ever I start playing rolls seriously. At the moment I'm not fussed about them at all - some of the players I most admire don't use any and sound fabulous. I think rolls might be a B/C player hangup (* ducks *).
Ha Steve,
what's this about rolls being a B/C hangup!!
as far as I know, the B/C tuning system became popular precisely because early melodeon and accordion players had difficulty emulating the running triplets and rolls common on the fiddle and pipes... i.e. it was developed and has become popular to allow for this sort of ornamentation in G and D scales in particular. Mind you, I am still struggling to get some rolls to flow and fit naturally into tunes. Best wishes,
Barry.
'bout ye!
Beginners - forget about rolls, forget about bass, forget about reading fingering numbers off the music
Fingering sort of comes naturally - play the tune with any fingering and if you find it awkward, then try different fingering that make it easier. You'll learn after a while that certain patterns emerge in tunes and you will have the correct fingering without even thinking about it
For every tune you'll have to think about and probably adjust the fingering somewhat.
I play a b/c and have had to tweak the fingering over the years. Also, some fingering can't get easier (unless you sew on extra fingers) so you'll just have to practice.......and practice.........
b/c box fingerings for beginners
b/c box fingerings for beginners
Hi there,
Does anybody know of any source of a few easy tunes with b/c fingerings notated? For someone just starting the box.
I found some great ones here: http://home.hccnet.nl/h.speek/irishbox/finger.html but they are for c#/d. I'm having fun playing them but I think they're coming out in pretty strange keys on the b/c box.
Cheers,
Paul
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Paul Brennan
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Hi Paul,
I play the B/C box a little bit but the fingerings you refer to are vastly different from the fingerings I would use though I admit I have never had any lessons. One thing I have learned from playing the fiddle is that if you learn a tune with the wrong/inferior bowing/fingering it takes time to unlearn it and then you have to start again. Try to get some fingerings from aB/C player. I am sure there are basic principles such as thinking ahead to where your fingers need to be for the next phrase. I don't think playing several consecutive notes with the same finger is a good idea because it slows you down.
If you watch box players their hands don't chase up and down the keyboard. Also a C#/D box requires a lot more bellows changes than a B/C.
Good Luck,
Ian.
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by Taglione
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Thanks for that Ian.
I'm assuming that the C#/D box is the same relationships as the B/C, just transposed? When I play the Hans Speek tunes I'm just following the button numbering, ignoring the notes. It seems to be logical fingering (like I would know!) but the tune comes out a tone below the key of the dots, e.g. Silver Spire comes out in C.
Then, I was listening to Sharon Shannon's Silver Spire and it comes out in E. Presumably she's using a key of D fingering from a B/C box, but playing it on a C#/D box???
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by Paul Brennan
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
i'm actually not sure because i haven't played c#/d and i don't feel like searching right now to find out, but i don't know if the fingerings would be the same. i guess what i did when i started learning (i've been playing for about a year) was just playing D scales to get familiar with the format, and then i do tunes in d that mostly fall within the easy octave and a half range from D up to high a. one of the nice things about the B/C box is that the way the notes are arranged works very well for tunes in D and G which make up the majority of irish tunes, so you may want to stick to those keys and take advantage of that.
usually, because of the way tunes move around, you can use your second or third fingers to play notes and then you can sort of run circles around that central finger for the other notes. pretty much everyone will have different fingerings by a little bit. it's not a standardized thing like fiddle or whistle, it's just a matter of what's easiest for you. the only thing you don't want to do is really twist your fingers around each other.
i hope this was helpful, although it's not quite what you asked. if you want me to write out the fingerings i use for some tune you know i can.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by heth
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Thanks, heth, that's really generous of you but sounds like tedious work! I've found I can get a copy of the Williams video through the library (in Edmonton, Alberta, who would have thought?) so that should get me going.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by Paul Brennan
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Hi Paul,
I've thought some more about this and playing in the key of D is significantly different on aC#/D box. All the notes are on the inside row whereas on the B/C box you have to cross rows for two of the notes. This is bound to alter the fingerings. Try playing a tune in the key of C on the B/C box and that will be like playing in D on the C#/D box. As I said before it is important to learn a tune with fingerings you can speed up later.Stick to a few tunes and get them right. The temptation is to try lots of tunes most of which you will have to relearn later as your technique improves.
And then there's the left hand!
Good Luck,
Ian.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by Taglione
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Hi Paul,
If you look at Han Speek's first tune Off To California you will see that the first three notes of the tune proper are fingered 222. That is because on the C#/D box they are all played on the same button in/out/in or out/in/out. On the B/C box you are using two buttons to play these notes so it would be 212. So be very wary of following those fingerings.
I have heard that a comprehensive tutor for B/C box is to be published later this year. I look forward to getting hold of it.
Good Luck,
Ian.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by Taglione
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Paul,
I wouldn't get too hung up on fingering system. I have met one teacher who was very into this sort of thing. But others just concentrate on the tune and will point out if your chosen fingering is causing a problem only when it actually is - its a personal thing. Different players will vary but as Heth says, avoid having to cross your fingers. Also, although difficult early on, don't ignore your little finger - as skill improves it helps out in all sorts of ways.
Finally, whenever I find myself making the same mistake repeatedly, I stop, slow down and look at my fingering and see if if a better choice of movement would suit. Trust this helps.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Hussar, why do you say avoid crossing your fingers? (I assume you don't mean "don't trust to luck.")
ImM teaching myself the C#/D box (nobody to learn from for hundreds of miles and no teaching materials anywhere - to Speek of
). For some passages involving row-crossing I've found that crossing the fingers makes things a great deal easier, more fluid and I think logical.
It also seems to tie in with the way you move around on the piano keyboard (dim memories of about three piano lessons I had as a small child chiming in here).
To give one simple example, to use the "magic note" of F# on the outer row (E on your B/C) in passages such as G-F-#E (Fnat-E-D for you) I use 3-1-2. The shape and length of my fingers seems to preclude any other way of playing this passage reliably.
This then frees up my index to play the next note going down the scale when needed, i.e. G-F#-E-D (Fnat-E-D-C) = 3-1-2-1
If I need to keep going down the scale, say with Cnat-B-G (B-A-Fnat) I would then cross again using 3-2-1 for these next few notes.
Any comments? As I say I am working in complete isolation and am interested to know what experienced players do and why.
Steve
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Steve,
I would not care to classify myself as an 'experienced' player but I do know that when my fingers (partic. forefinger and middle) start crossing, that I tend to be more likely to trip up. Better to hop or slide the finger across from inside to outside row - doesn't work in reverse though. Your hand can move crab like up and down the fingerboard shuffling one finger behind the next but I would't call this crossing! When I get out the box this evening to play, I'll check your points and think about it!!!! Best wishes from Wexford.
Barry.
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
i think hussar pretty much covered what i was trying to say. just run with the notes and don't worry about the fingerings too much--whatever works comfortably and up to speed is gonna be fine.
the wounded hussar is a lovely tune by the way
# Posted on March 11th 2005 by heth
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Steve,
did have a look at your query re fingering last night. Can't see any problem with that - it's like moving your crab like, shuffling sideways up and down the keyboard, rather than crossing fingers. Mind you, when I played that sequence of buttons, I was inclined to use 3-2-3-2-2-1-1 on your fingering system. The way I'd look at it is that if your hand is comfortable playing a tune and the ryhthm is right, then what you are doing must be correct for you. As one gains experience and start to add in triplets and rolls, then one will need to adjust and perhaps change fingering to make it more fluid. As mentioned, I met one tutor who was very keen that her fingering was followed for a tune she was teaching and watched it like a hawk!! Her point was that although she was teaching the tune 'straight', that her system would more easily allow for ornamentation when that came to be added. But I don't know, getting the rhythm and flow of the tune is much more important it seems to me rather than concentrating of what particular finger you are using on any given button. If you are having trouble with the rhythm or hitting the wrong note consistently, then its time to stop and look at the fingers.
One last point, when you watch a good box player .. look at the position of the thumb in the groove. From a given position of the thumb, most players can play from a low D button to high D button (B/C) comfortably with a stretch either way for an odd note. So for the first and usually lower pitched part A of a tune, the thumb is here. For the higher pitched Part B, the thumb slides up to where the high B button can be comfortably reached. The thumb slides up and down, up and down the groove as you go along from A to B etc. returning each time to the exact point. This allows you to 'know' where any given button is without looking for it.
Yeah, The Wounded Hussar is a great air - I just happned to be listening to it when signing on here!! I hate passwords and user names so it was as good as any!
# Posted on March 11th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Thanks for the input Barry and the thought that went into it. WIll have a look at what I'm doing with the right thumb, although I'm surprised at how quickly a sense of what button is where develops. (But when you hit the wrong one, the results can sometimes be hilarious!)
As you say, to a great extent I think it has to be a question what works for you - not everyone's fingers have the same width, shape, or length relative to the other fingers. And yes, that word flow again, that's what matters.
I suppose I will have to adjust if ever I start playing rolls seriously. At the moment I'm not fussed about them at all - some of the players I most admire don't use any and sound fabulous. I think rolls might be a B/C player hangup (* ducks *).
I am partial to the Wounded Hussar too, learned it on fiddle a couple of decades ago. Although having got it from a recording of Séamus Ennis, I find that Tony McMahon (who also got it from Ennis I seem to remember) makes it sound excessively ponderous and lugubrious, hard to get used to.
Cheers
Steve.
# Posted on March 11th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
Ha Steve,
what's this about rolls being a B/C hangup!!
as far as I know, the B/C tuning system became popular precisely because early melodeon and accordion players had difficulty emulating the running triplets and rolls common on the fiddle and pipes... i.e. it was developed and has become popular to allow for this sort of ornamentation in G and D scales in particular. Mind you, I am still struggling to get some rolls to flow and fit naturally into tunes. Best wishes,
Barry.
# Posted on March 11th 2005 by the wounded hussar
Re: b/c box fingerings for beginners
'bout ye!
Beginners - forget about rolls, forget about bass, forget about reading fingering numbers off the music
Fingering sort of comes naturally - play the tune with any fingering and if you find it awkward, then try different fingering that make it easier. You'll learn after a while that certain patterns emerge in tunes and you will have the correct fingering without even thinking about it
For every tune you'll have to think about and probably adjust the fingering somewhat.
I play a b/c and have had to tweak the fingering over the years. Also, some fingering can't get easier (unless you sew on extra fingers) so you'll just have to practice.......and practice.........
# Posted on June 28th 2005 by jerry from derry