Pete Cooper describes this in his tutor: "It's not, strictly speaking, a treble, but it feels the same." He transcribes it as two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth note - da da dum - using it as a substitute for a roll. For the first note you dig into the string just like usual. It's not something you'd want to overdo, I'd imagine it'd be quite irritating if you used it in every tune.
It occured to me that this might make a nice excersise - to play these "trebles" instead of rolls in jigs - and indeed it really forces you to loosen up. Weird thing, there are certain notes I can't treble well - but the string next door I have much better luck with. How does that work? Nerves I'd say!
Why aren't they "strictly speaking" a bowed triplet? I think of them as bowed triplets, and the eighth note can either kick them off or end them. Though not a "cat scratch triplet," it's still a triplet, with each note bowed separately and distinctly. An excellent way to work on loosening, relaxing, and minimizing your bowing movements.
I use such triplets a fair amount in jigs, usually as chromatic triplets, changing the pitch of each note (or sometimes just changing pitch once). They're not merely a replacement for rolls--played with clarity and good timing, they give more of a sense of momentum and movement, I think, than rolls do.
Food for thought. You'll hear plenty of such triplets in the playing of fiddlers as different as Brian Conway, Martin Hayes, Liz and Yvonne Kane, and Tommy Peoples.
Thanks for bringing this up, Kevin; I've been thinking about this (the triplet thing) a lot lately. I credit the inablility to play them well on all strings to creeping middle-agedom, but I'm sure there's some other explaination...
And yes! Will, they kick some tunes up a notch or two (if only I play them the way they sound in my head). I guess I don't think of them as bowed triplets; maybe I've always misunderstood the term. I had a string of music teachers over the years who were Very Strict about giving each note its full value, and when I think triplet, I think 1/3 times 3, even though I'm playing 'traditional' not 'classical'. I think this is why my playing sounds so limp.
".... he transcribes it as two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth note..."
Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed. Very few people play them as true three-into-the-space-of-two triplets - except, perhaps, in hornpipes, depending on who's playing.
"Why aren't they "strictly speaking" a bowed triplet?"
Because, strictly speaking, a triplet divides the beats evenly. They ain't got no swing. The people who speak strictly are really anal about even divisions of beats.
Ever hear someone who's never really listened to Irish music and picked up a jig from sheet music? Strictly speaking they are playing it correctly as notated, and playing it God awful.
It's like that. The eighth notes on the paper aren't, strictly speaking, eighth notes in the music. Irish music doesn't translate into "strictly speaking" terms because the people who invented strict speech weren't talking about Irish music, and the Irish musicians weren't speaking, they were too busy playing the s**** out of the stuff.
Sure, it's perfectly reasonable to think of them as triplets, but they're "Irish" triplets, not the common sort, and it's important to point that out to someone who already has a classical sense of what a triplet is, just like it's important to point out that their jigs sound like crap.
"Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed."
Go plug that into an ABC translator. Won't sound right at all. If you wished, for some reason, to strictly notate Irish music you would need to devise an Irish notation.
"This is the symbol for three notes that sound like this."
Well, KFG, there are a lot of really anal people out there 'teaching' music; unfortunate. Kind of takes the fun out of it. On the other hand, I sat in on a workshop a few weeks ago where a guy spent a couple of hours showing people the difference between music 'memorized' and music played from the heart. No tunes were taught, no techniques demonstrated, but it was an afternoon well-spent. Different from a lot of classes I've been to because we didn't wast a bunch of time butchering some defenseless tune.
I hope you weren't refering to our Will H there Mrs Bat. It might be tedious to follow the musings of the Harmon sometimes, but, take it from me, he's very seldom wrong. You just have to bite the bullet sometimes and accept that learning to play is a tad anal. No getting round it.
Nah, Michael, I find Will neither tedious nor particularly anal. I spend a lot of time dealing with folks who are both; maybe someday I'll publish a field guide.
Batlady, I think there are a couple of possible explanations for your difficulty in playing bowed trebles equally well on different strings.
The first is that the strings have different weights, tension and reponsiveness. The G string is relatively heavy, a little "floppy" compared with the other strings, and has an inherent slower response due to its greater inertia, whereas at the other end of the scale you generally get an instant response from the E string (including those unwanted squeaks). The A string certainly has a different response to the D (higher tension for starters) and is closer to the E in its behaviour, whereas the D behaves a little more like the G.
The second is that the posture of your left hand and arm varies according to the string you're playing on, as does the posture of your bowing arm.
The answer, I suggest, is more steady work in the woodshed - slow thoughtful practice on all the strings, trying to be aware of the subtle differences in bow pressure required for different strings, and the equally subtle different left hand finger pressures needed according to the string you're playing on. Try to work on having the fingers moving as little as possible from the strings. The less distance the finger has to travel then the faster it can move with less effort. A high finger action, "hammering" on the strings, although it can look spectacular to the audience, doesn't really do anything useful, and I suspect that it could cause joint problems in later life.
Finally, it's worth checking that your fiddle action (distance of the strings from the fingerboard) isn't too high. Too high an action, even though it's said to give a bigger tone, makes life unnecessarily difficult for fast fingering. If you use all-steel strings such as Spirocores, it's often a good idea to have the action as low as possible. If you're using synthetic cores (or especially covered gut) then you can have an action that's a little higher. If you need to alter the action talk to a luthier about it and get it done by an expert. It shouldn't be an expensive job.
Trevor
I believe she is refering to people such as my old, German violin master, who took all the joy out of music and offered nothing in return other than weekly beatings, as Kerri so aptly phrased it.
Well, Ms. Bat, each to their own -- personally, I get a lot of joy out of being anal about bits and pieces, so long as it doesn't affect how I finally play the stuff. And it's all those little details, of course, that go into making this stuff sounds more like itself, at least in my experience, which is admittedly limited.
Michael, you just think Will's always right because he never bothers to disagree with you when you go spouting outrageous stuff for effect. Pbbbbtthhht. *smirk*
Lol, I step away from the screen for an hour or two.
Strictly speaking, they are a "bowed triplet," and by that I mean the sort of Irish trad triplet we fiddlers play in a variety of forms and timings. Yes, it's different than the more evenly spaced triplet you might find in a hornpipe - |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE| In notation, it's more of two sixteenths attached to an eighth note: |d/B/c/d.... | (and even that is just an approximation of the timing). But how you notate it doesn't matter--the timing is all in how you hear--and play--it.
My point is, it's an articulation of three notes played by separate bow strokes, commonly called bowed triplet by many, many trad players. Good enough for me.
That said, I can understand Mr. Cooper's hair splitting. Bowed triplets serve a variety of purposes and can be played with varying amounts of scratchiness, percussiveness, separation between the notes, etc. You can vary the timing to incorporate a delay (most commonly hanging on the first note, sometimes the last note), and the notes can either be all the same pitch, two pitches, or three different pitches. So the sort of open bowed triplet that I notated above is different than just a hard, crunchy bowed triplet. It's good to be clear in your mind which you mean to use when you're playing a tune.
The only thing you can say for sure about this "ornament" is that it always has a rhythmic element. Even the most distinctly articulated, chromatic bowed triplet changes the timing of the notes in relation to the beat. And that is it's real purpose in this dance music--to create lift or pulse and rhythmic interest.
In contrast, the more even triplets often heard in hornpipes (and also often bowed in slurs as well as with single bows), though still a rhythmic device, are *melody* variations. Similarly, a run of slurred triplets in a reel (more common in Sligo styles than most other regional styles) is more a melodic variation than a purely rhythmic one.
So, in a reel, we might play dB|AF F/F/F GFEF|DF F/F/F ABde| or do rolls in place of the bowed triplets, but the timing would likely sound weird if we played an even, slurred triplet: dB|AF (3FEF GFEF|DF (3FGF ABde|
Thanks to Michael for coming to my defense, but it really wasn't necessary--I knew Batwoman meant no harm.
Ack, stirred up some hornets here.
I was quoting Pete from his book at the top, I wonder when he was typing that if he realized such a fuss would be made! Whatever you want to call it, it seems a very good excercise for the bow hand. Before I'd been racking my brains trying to think of another reel or hornpipe to practice the treble in - or yuck puke, just do string excercises. And a treble in a jig is a nice effect here and there.
Along the lines of pedantry/authenticity, old instruction books call what we now invariably refer to as "rolls" as "turns" or curls." Patsy Touhey (1860-1923) mentions "roll" as an alternative name for the cran.
I've been to several of Pete's workshops and he was the one person who most changed the way I played both jigs and reels. I came from a music reading, classical background and the first workshop I went to was one of Pete's at Fiddles at Witney. I went home and played solidly for about three days to try and absorb all he'd taught!
The problem is that tutor books are not always the best way to learn - it's difficult to describe the nuances of irish music in words. You have to use them in conjunction with shedloads of listening!!
Couple of things here - first, I'd agree with Kevin that the bowed trebles make good exercises, echoing also Batlady's
sentiments by keeping them as exercises to improve on, and not butchering a tune trying to perfect them.
My perception of a triplet (slur bowed or fingered) is that in the case of a jig, it's 4 notes in the time span of 3 : with reels it's 3 notes in the time span of 2. In either case, the start and end notes will be struck with the same time gap as if you had played the phrase 'straight'. The timing of the notes in between will vary from player to player, the more
regular the millisecond gaps, the more 'mechanical' it can sound. Also important IMO to additionally practice the triplet with the 3rd note landing on an adjacent string.
I've noticed students having trouble with the timing for 2 reasons : the bow travel is too long on the tripletted note, and / or the bow travel is not straight up and down - rather drawing a small ellipse over the string.
' "Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed."
Go plug that into an ABC translator. Won't sound right at all. If you wished, for some reason, to strictly notate Irish music you would need to devise an Irish notation. '
So you regard ABC translators as the arbiters of what sounds right in Irish music? I'll bear that in mind when reading your posts in future.
"So you regard ABC translators as the arbiters of what sounds right in Irish music?"
No, I consider them an approximation of how things sound in *classical* music and specifically said a notation played that way would sound wrong for Irish music; and will further state that anyone who learns a tune by copying the output of an ABC translator will play jigs that sound like crap.
After writing the above about half an hour or so ago I'm still puzzled by how you interpret my saying that an ABC translator doesn't output music that sounds Irish, even after notational adjustments are made to make it more "correct," as a statement that an ABC translator is "the arbiter of what sounds *right* in Irish music."
How can I consider it the arbiter of what sounds right when I claim it doesn't even produce what sounds right? I have, in fact, denied that it is the arbiter of what sounds right.
There is obviously some weird sort of miscommunication going on here, which is why I feel compeled to post again more explicitly.
If I say the output of the translator sounds wrong, I must be doing so in refererence to so some *other* source that I think sounds right, just as if I told a portrait painter that his output didn't look like me at all. I consider my face the arbiter of what I look like and Irish music as played by Irish musicians the arbiter of what Irish music sounds like, by comparison to which the output of an ABC translator sounds wrong.
Kevin, I wonder if the problem is in talking about abc translators and triplets at all.
The rest of us are talking about "bowed triplets," which have little to nothing to do with triplets the way other genres use the term, and we know that here. Also, no one here is implying that triplets must have any sort of even timing, or that abcs or dots can do real justice to the timing and nuance of the music we play. They're just visual conventions for approximating what we play. In abcs, many people use the B/c/dB notation to distinguish bowed triplets from the more even triplets common in hornpipes, notated as (3Bcd. As you well know, the use of the terms "triplet" or "treble" by Irish trad players is also such a convention. It refers to the presence of three notes, not to triplets as they're understood by fans of Vivaldi or Brahms.
In short, no one here expects abc translators to play authentic sounding Irish music, so it sounds odd when you suggest plugging our abc convention for notating bowed triplets into one just to prove that it won't sound right. That misses the point.
Moving on, I think Pete Cooper is right to distinguish between the clean, open bowed triplets often used in jigs (as notated above for Garrett Barry's) and the grittier, more compact bowed triplets also widely used in this music. I agree. I play both types of bowed triplets in jigs and think of them as quite distinct from one another.
For example (keeping in mind the limitations of abcs), the opening bar of Sean Ryan's Jig can be played bare bones:
|c3 B3|AGE DB,G,|
or with rolls:
|~c3 ~B3|AGE DB,G,|
or with tight, crunchy bowed triplets:
|cc/c/c BB/B/B|AGE DB,G,|
or with a light, open bowed triplet:
|cA/B/c BAG|AGE DB,G,|
or another:
|c2 A B/c/d/B|AGE DB,G,|
To me, if you tighten and dirty up the bowed triplets in the last two examples, you lose their full effect. They sound best when each note is clear and distinct. Notice also that the timing can vary--hanging on the first (eighth) note before articulating the bowed chromatic triplet in the first case, or starting with the triplet (sixteenths) and lingering just a hair on the last note. Those differences also tend to affect the internal timing of the triplet itself.
In short, when scanning abcs for a tune, I interpret cc/c/c differently than cA/B/c. That's just me, but it matches what I hear good trad players doing.
Upon review of the first post and your response it certainly seems that I have the gotten the context all out of phase and gone off crosswise to the subject. I'm afraid I'll do that now and again.
I apologize.
In my defense all I can say is that Batlady and Steve seem to have made the same error, and that's what got us going at each other in some sort of bizzare, out of phase, feedback cycle.
To further compound the error I have already written that I had had no exposure to ABC notation before coming here. I'm playing a bit of catch up there, and your notation, to me, looks like cat scratches even if they aren't intended to represent cat scratches. I like dots. And where have I started to learn to read and transcribe ABC?
Pete Cooper plays many types of fiddle music besides Irish. Although I am not personally acquainted with the man, his playing or his teaching, I have heard good reports thereof. Perhaps his need to be 'anal' (sorry to be 'anal', but how many of us *really* know what that word means, in it's psychological context? I don't) about musical nomenclaure is due to the fact that, in some of the music he plays, a triplet really *is* a triplet, and dotted notes are dotted notes, and f-naturals are f-naturals, etc.
Ummm. I think this thread is possesed by demons. Sorry-just made an idle comment about it finally dawning on me (doh!) that triplets are not really triplets. I go home, live my life, and come back to find that some weird game of Telephone has been going on. I can't keep up with you guys....
Neither am I, which may have contributed markedly to what I have taken to be my previous error. I commented on a small quote, taken out of context, from a book I have not read. Given the positive comments I've heard it's been on my "to do" list for a while, but hasn't made it to my "to done" list yet.
Thus I interpreted the quote as being about the difference between a classical triplet and the Irish variety, since that is a matter that commonly needs to be addressed. Will seems to have interpreted it as the difference between the cat scratch triplet and the da da dum triplet and in my apology above I accepted that he was most likely correct.
Now after your post I'm not so sure again and I took it from his opening remark that Will hasn't read it either (and it was Will who first used the term "bowed triplet." The provided Cooper quote simply said "treble").
I guess we should both go read the bloody book and find out exactly who's talking crosswise to the subject.
Or we could just say "Screw it, it doesn't really matter" and go for a tune and a cup of coffee. Works for me.
"Perhaps his need to be 'anal' . . ."
As the one who introduced the term to the converstion I'll point out that a) I didn't apply it to Peter; and b)it is the shortened version of anal-retentive and in technical language means "archaic term that only those entirely benighted strict Freudians still believe has any meaning at all." I've read Freud. He was pretty anal. I wouldn't trust his terminology.
". . .and f-naturals are f-naturals. . ."
Now that's just not natural.
". . some weird game of Telephone has been going on."
Welcome to the web, ain't it grand? If this sort of thing bothers you stay the hell away from usenet, just trust me on this one.
Re: I'll tell the (mildly) amusing anecdote if you buy the beer
A new subdivision popped up in a neighboring town a couple of years ago. Situated on a major road and beside a large irrigation canal, the developers had built a snazzy entrance wall and gate with the name of the subdivision tastefully lettered on the gate: CANAL VIEW. Within 24 hours, some local wits/juvenile delinquents had made off with the "C" . They replaced it; the "C" disappered again. They finally gave up and took the whole thing down.
Kevin- nice initial post- my fiddle teacher has suggested the same thing; playing with the notes for practice, rolls for triplets, to keep the mind and fingers loose enough to do what you need them to do. Also to break some pre-set conventions you have when you play.
I'm sorry if my tactless remark caused you offence, anguish or indignation, KFG. It was supposed to a bit of harmless stirring, hence the
I still don't quite understand why you made the remark about ABC translators, but then I haven't read everything that has been said since with due care an attention. I of course took it to mean that you didn't agre/e/e that the 2 16ths + an 1/8th notation was correct.
The funny thing is that to my ear, this notation sounds fine in ABC players such as ABCMus and ABC Navigator!
Steve, ABCMus2.0 has a technique for accenting the notes so as to make the rhythm sound more realistic. I think it's user-definable. You'll find it under Options/Playback and MIDI Options/Volumes.
Trevor
"Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
"Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Pete Cooper describes this in his tutor: "It's not, strictly speaking, a treble, but it feels the same." He transcribes it as two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth note - da da dum - using it as a substitute for a roll. For the first note you dig into the string just like usual. It's not something you'd want to overdo, I'd imagine it'd be quite irritating if you used it in every tune.
It occured to me that this might make a nice excersise - to play these "trebles" instead of rolls in jigs - and indeed it really forces you to loosen up. Weird thing, there are certain notes I can't treble well - but the string next door I have much better luck with. How does that work? Nerves I'd say!
# Posted on March 7th 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Why aren't they "strictly speaking" a bowed triplet? I think of them as bowed triplets, and the eighth note can either kick them off or end them. Though not a "cat scratch triplet," it's still a triplet, with each note bowed separately and distinctly. An excellent way to work on loosening, relaxing, and minimizing your bowing movements.
I use such triplets a fair amount in jigs, usually as chromatic triplets, changing the pitch of each note (or sometimes just changing pitch once). They're not merely a replacement for rolls--played with clarity and good timing, they give more of a sense of momentum and movement, I think, than rolls do.
Consider the first part of Garrett Barry's:
|DEF ~G3|AGE ~c3|dcA d2 e|fed cAG|
|~F3 ~G3|AGE cde|dcA GEA|DED D2 A,|
Here are some of the triplet possibilities. Mind you, I wouldn't play all of them in one run through.
|DEF GE/F/G|AGE cA/B/c|dc/c/A d2 e|f/f/ed cAG|
|FD/E/F G/E/F/G|AGE cde|dcA GEA|DE/D/D D2 A,|
Food for thought. You'll hear plenty of such triplets in the playing of fiddlers as different as Brian Conway, Martin Hayes, Liz and Yvonne Kane, and Tommy Peoples.
# Posted on March 7th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Thanks for bringing this up, Kevin; I've been thinking about this (the triplet thing) a lot lately. I credit the inablility to play them well on all strings to creeping middle-agedom, but I'm sure there's some other explaination...
And yes! Will, they kick some tunes up a notch or two (if only I play them the way they sound in my head). I guess I don't think of them as bowed triplets; maybe I've always misunderstood the term. I had a string of music teachers over the years who were Very Strict about giving each note its full value, and when I think triplet, I think 1/3 times 3, even though I'm playing 'traditional' not 'classical'. I think this is why my playing sounds so limp.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Batlady
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
".... he transcribes it as two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth note..."
Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed. Very few people play them as true three-into-the-space-of-two triplets - except, perhaps, in hornpipes, depending on who's playing.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
"Why aren't they "strictly speaking" a bowed triplet?"
Because, strictly speaking, a triplet divides the beats evenly. They ain't got no swing. The people who speak strictly are really anal about even divisions of beats.
Ever hear someone who's never really listened to Irish music and picked up a jig from sheet music? Strictly speaking they are playing it correctly as notated, and playing it God awful.
It's like that. The eighth notes on the paper aren't, strictly speaking, eighth notes in the music. Irish music doesn't translate into "strictly speaking" terms because the people who invented strict speech weren't talking about Irish music, and the Irish musicians weren't speaking, they were too busy playing the s**** out of the stuff.
Sure, it's perfectly reasonable to think of them as triplets, but they're "Irish" triplets, not the common sort, and it's important to point that out to someone who already has a classical sense of what a triplet is, just like it's important to point out that their jigs sound like crap.
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Cross post:
"Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed."
Go plug that into an ABC translator. Won't sound right at all. If you wished, for some reason, to strictly notate Irish music you would need to devise an Irish notation.
"This is the symbol for three notes that sound like this."
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Well, KFG, there are a lot of really anal people out there 'teaching' music; unfortunate. Kind of takes the fun out of it. On the other hand, I sat in on a workshop a few weeks ago where a guy spent a couple of hours showing people the difference between music 'memorized' and music played from the heart. No tunes were taught, no techniques demonstrated, but it was an afternoon well-spent. Different from a lot of classes I've been to because we didn't wast a bunch of time butchering some defenseless tune.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Batlady
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
I hope you weren't refering to our Will H there Mrs Bat. It might be tedious to follow the musings of the Harmon sometimes, but, take it from me, he's very seldom wrong. You just have to bite the bullet sometimes and accept that learning to play is a tad anal. No getting round it.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Nah, Michael, I find Will neither tedious nor particularly anal. I spend a lot of time dealing with folks who are both; maybe someday I'll publish a field guide.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Batlady
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Batlady, I think there are a couple of possible explanations for your difficulty in playing bowed trebles equally well on different strings.
The first is that the strings have different weights, tension and reponsiveness. The G string is relatively heavy, a little "floppy" compared with the other strings, and has an inherent slower response due to its greater inertia, whereas at the other end of the scale you generally get an instant response from the E string (including those unwanted squeaks). The A string certainly has a different response to the D (higher tension for starters) and is closer to the E in its behaviour, whereas the D behaves a little more like the G.
The second is that the posture of your left hand and arm varies according to the string you're playing on, as does the posture of your bowing arm.
The answer, I suggest, is more steady work in the woodshed - slow thoughtful practice on all the strings, trying to be aware of the subtle differences in bow pressure required for different strings, and the equally subtle different left hand finger pressures needed according to the string you're playing on. Try to work on having the fingers moving as little as possible from the strings. The less distance the finger has to travel then the faster it can move with less effort. A high finger action, "hammering" on the strings, although it can look spectacular to the audience, doesn't really do anything useful, and I suspect that it could cause joint problems in later life.
Finally, it's worth checking that your fiddle action (distance of the strings from the fingerboard) isn't too high. Too high an action, even though it's said to give a bigger tone, makes life unnecessarily difficult for fast fingering. If you use all-steel strings such as Spirocores, it's often a good idea to have the action as low as possible. If you're using synthetic cores (or especially covered gut) then you can have an action that's a little higher. If you need to alter the action talk to a luthier about it and get it done by an expert. It shouldn't be an expensive job.
Trevor
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
BTW, I think I should have made it clear in my last posting that I was considering fingered ornaments as well as bowed trebles.
Trevor
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
I believe she is refering to people such as my old, German violin master, who took all the joy out of music and offered nothing in return other than weekly beatings, as Kerri so aptly phrased it.
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Let's not lay into Pete Cooper for choosing to be meticulous with his language. That has nothing to do with his understanding of the music.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by granama
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Well, Ms. Bat, each to their own -- personally, I get a lot of joy out of being anal about bits and pieces, so long as it doesn't affect how I finally play the stuff. And it's all those little details, of course, that go into making this stuff sounds more like itself, at least in my experience, which is admittedly limited.
Michael, you just think Will's always right because he never bothers to disagree with you when you go spouting outrageous stuff for effect. Pbbbbtthhht. *smirk*
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Lol, I step away from the screen for an hour or two.
Strictly speaking, they are a "bowed triplet," and by that I mean the sort of Irish trad triplet we fiddlers play in a variety of forms and timings. Yes, it's different than the more evenly spaced triplet you might find in a hornpipe - |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE| In notation, it's more of two sixteenths attached to an eighth note: |d/B/c/d.... | (and even that is just an approximation of the timing). But how you notate it doesn't matter--the timing is all in how you hear--and play--it.
My point is, it's an articulation of three notes played by separate bow strokes, commonly called bowed triplet by many, many trad players. Good enough for me.
That said, I can understand Mr. Cooper's hair splitting. Bowed triplets serve a variety of purposes and can be played with varying amounts of scratchiness, percussiveness, separation between the notes, etc. You can vary the timing to incorporate a delay (most commonly hanging on the first note, sometimes the last note), and the notes can either be all the same pitch, two pitches, or three different pitches. So the sort of open bowed triplet that I notated above is different than just a hard, crunchy bowed triplet. It's good to be clear in your mind which you mean to use when you're playing a tune.
The only thing you can say for sure about this "ornament" is that it always has a rhythmic element. Even the most distinctly articulated, chromatic bowed triplet changes the timing of the notes in relation to the beat. And that is it's real purpose in this dance music--to create lift or pulse and rhythmic interest.
In contrast, the more even triplets often heard in hornpipes (and also often bowed in slurs as well as with single bows), though still a rhythmic device, are *melody* variations. Similarly, a run of slurred triplets in a reel (more common in Sligo styles than most other regional styles) is more a melodic variation than a purely rhythmic one.
So, in a reel, we might play dB|AF F/F/F GFEF|DF F/F/F ABde| or do rolls in place of the bowed triplets, but the timing would likely sound weird if we played an even, slurred triplet: dB|AF (3FEF GFEF|DF (3FGF ABde|
Thanks to Michael for coming to my defense, but it really wasn't necessary--I knew Batwoman meant no harm.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Ack, stirred up some hornets here.
I was quoting Pete from his book at the top, I wonder when he was typing that if he realized such a fuss would be made! Whatever you want to call it, it seems a very good excercise for the bow hand. Before I'd been racking my brains trying to think of another reel or hornpipe to practice the treble in - or yuck puke, just do string excercises. And a treble in a jig is a nice effect here and there.
Along the lines of pedantry/authenticity, old instruction books call what we now invariably refer to as "rolls" as "turns" or curls." Patsy Touhey (1860-1923) mentions "roll" as an alternative name for the cran.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
I've been to several of Pete's workshops and he was the one person who most changed the way I played both jigs and reels. I came from a music reading, classical background and the first workshop I went to was one of Pete's at Fiddles at Witney. I went home and played solidly for about three days to try and absorb all he'd taught!
The problem is that tutor books are not always the best way to learn - it's difficult to describe the nuances of irish music in words. You have to use them in conjunction with shedloads of listening!!
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Couple of things here - first, I'd agree with Kevin that the bowed trebles make good exercises, echoing also Batlady's
sentiments by keeping them as exercises to improve on, and not butchering a tune trying to perfect them.
My perception of a triplet (slur bowed or fingered) is that in the case of a jig, it's 4 notes in the time span of 3 : with reels it's 3 notes in the time span of 2. In either case, the start and end notes will be struck with the same time gap as if you had played the phrase 'straight'. The timing of the notes in between will vary from player to player, the more
regular the millisecond gaps, the more 'mechanical' it can sound. Also important IMO to additionally practice the triplet with the 3rd note landing on an adjacent string.
I've noticed students having trouble with the timing for 2 reasons : the bow travel is too long on the tripletted note, and / or the bow travel is not straight up and down - rather drawing a small ellipse over the string.
Jim
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
' "Actually that is how all trebles and bowed triplets ought strictly to be transcribed."
Go plug that into an ABC translator. Won't sound right at all. If you wished, for some reason, to strictly notate Irish music you would need to devise an Irish notation. '
So you regard ABC translators as the arbiters of what sounds right in Irish music? I'll bear that in mind when reading your posts in future.
Steve
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
"So you regard ABC translators as the arbiters of what sounds right in Irish music?"
No, I consider them an approximation of how things sound in *classical* music and specifically said a notation played that way would sound wrong for Irish music; and will further state that anyone who learns a tune by copying the output of an ABC translator will play jigs that sound like crap.
You disagree with that?
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
After writing the above about half an hour or so ago I'm still puzzled by how you interpret my saying that an ABC translator doesn't output music that sounds Irish, even after notational adjustments are made to make it more "correct," as a statement that an ABC translator is "the arbiter of what sounds *right* in Irish music."
How can I consider it the arbiter of what sounds right when I claim it doesn't even produce what sounds right? I have, in fact, denied that it is the arbiter of what sounds right.
There is obviously some weird sort of miscommunication going on here, which is why I feel compeled to post again more explicitly.
If I say the output of the translator sounds wrong, I must be doing so in refererence to so some *other* source that I think sounds right, just as if I told a portrait painter that his output didn't look like me at all. I consider my face the arbiter of what I look like and Irish music as played by Irish musicians the arbiter of what Irish music sounds like, by comparison to which the output of an ABC translator sounds wrong.
Are we on the same wavelength yet?
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Kevin, I wonder if the problem is in talking about abc translators and triplets at all.
The rest of us are talking about "bowed triplets," which have little to nothing to do with triplets the way other genres use the term, and we know that here. Also, no one here is implying that triplets must have any sort of even timing, or that abcs or dots can do real justice to the timing and nuance of the music we play. They're just visual conventions for approximating what we play. In abcs, many people use the B/c/dB notation to distinguish bowed triplets from the more even triplets common in hornpipes, notated as (3Bcd. As you well know, the use of the terms "triplet" or "treble" by Irish trad players is also such a convention. It refers to the presence of three notes, not to triplets as they're understood by fans of Vivaldi or Brahms.
In short, no one here expects abc translators to play authentic sounding Irish music, so it sounds odd when you suggest plugging our abc convention for notating bowed triplets into one just to prove that it won't sound right. That misses the point.
Moving on, I think Pete Cooper is right to distinguish between the clean, open bowed triplets often used in jigs (as notated above for Garrett Barry's) and the grittier, more compact bowed triplets also widely used in this music. I agree. I play both types of bowed triplets in jigs and think of them as quite distinct from one another.
For example (keeping in mind the limitations of abcs), the opening bar of Sean Ryan's Jig can be played bare bones:
|c3 B3|AGE DB,G,|
or with rolls:
|~c3 ~B3|AGE DB,G,|
or with tight, crunchy bowed triplets:
|cc/c/c BB/B/B|AGE DB,G,|
or with a light, open bowed triplet:
|cA/B/c BAG|AGE DB,G,|
or another:
|c2 A B/c/d/B|AGE DB,G,|
To me, if you tighten and dirty up the bowed triplets in the last two examples, you lose their full effect. They sound best when each note is clear and distinct. Notice also that the timing can vary--hanging on the first (eighth) note before articulating the bowed chromatic triplet in the first case, or starting with the triplet (sixteenths) and lingering just a hair on the last note. Those differences also tend to affect the internal timing of the triplet itself.
In short, when scanning abcs for a tune, I interpret cc/c/c differently than cA/B/c. That's just me, but it matches what I hear good trad players doing.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Upon review of the first post and your response it certainly seems that I have the gotten the context all out of phase and gone off crosswise to the subject. I'm afraid I'll do that now and again.
I apologize.
In my defense all I can say is that Batlady and Steve seem to have made the same error, and that's what got us going at each other in some sort of bizzare, out of phase, feedback cycle.
To further compound the error I have already written that I had had no exposure to ABC notation before coming here. I'm playing a bit of catch up there, and your notation, to me, looks like cat scratches even if they aren't intended to represent cat scratches. I like dots. And where have I started to learn to read and transcribe ABC?
With hornpipes.
A comedy of errors all around.
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Pete Cooper plays many types of fiddle music besides Irish. Although I am not personally acquainted with the man, his playing or his teaching, I have heard good reports thereof. Perhaps his need to be 'anal' (sorry to be 'anal', but how many of us *really* know what that word means, in it's psychological context? I don't) about musical nomenclaure is due to the fact that, in some of the music he plays, a triplet really *is* a triplet, and dotted notes are dotted notes, and f-naturals are f-naturals, etc.
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by granama
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Ummm. I think this thread is possesed by demons. Sorry-just made an idle comment about it finally dawning on me (doh!) that triplets are not really triplets. I go home, live my life, and come back to find that some weird game of Telephone has been going on. I can't keep up with you guys....
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by Batlady
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Neither am I, which may have contributed markedly to what I have taken to be my previous error. I commented on a small quote, taken out of context, from a book I have not read. Given the positive comments I've heard it's been on my "to do" list for a while, but hasn't made it to my "to done" list yet.
Thus I interpreted the quote as being about the difference between a classical triplet and the Irish variety, since that is a matter that commonly needs to be addressed. Will seems to have interpreted it as the difference between the cat scratch triplet and the da da dum triplet and in my apology above I accepted that he was most likely correct.
Now after your post I'm not so sure again and I took it from his opening remark that Will hasn't read it either (and it was Will who first used the term "bowed triplet." The provided Cooper quote simply said "treble").
I guess we should both go read the bloody book and find out exactly who's talking crosswise to the subject.
Or we could just say "Screw it, it doesn't really matter" and go for a tune and a cup of coffee. Works for me.
"Perhaps his need to be 'anal' . . ."
As the one who introduced the term to the converstion I'll point out that a) I didn't apply it to Peter; and b)it is the shortened version of anal-retentive and in technical language means "archaic term that only those entirely benighted strict Freudians still believe has any meaning at all." I've read Freud. He was pretty anal. I wouldn't trust his terminology.
". . .and f-naturals are f-naturals. . ."
Now that's just not natural.
". . some weird game of Telephone has been going on."
Welcome to the web, ain't it grand?
If this sort of thing bothers you stay the hell away from usenet, just trust me on this one.
KFG
# Posted on March 8th 2005 by KFG
Re: I'll tell the (mildly) amusing anecdote if you buy the beer
A new subdivision popped up in a neighboring town a couple of years ago. Situated on a major road and beside a large irrigation canal, the developers had built a snazzy entrance wall and gate with the name of the subdivision tastefully lettered on the gate: CANAL VIEW. Within 24 hours, some local wits/juvenile delinquents had made off with the "C" . They replaced it; the "C" disappered again. They finally gave up and took the whole thing down.
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by Batlady
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Kevin- nice initial post- my fiddle teacher has suggested the same thing; playing with the notes for practice, rolls for triplets, to keep the mind and fingers loose enough to do what you need them to do. Also to break some pre-set conventions you have when you play.
And who said tight triplets were hard
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by I_Fel
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
I'm sorry if my tactless remark caused you offence, anguish or indignation, KFG. It was supposed to a bit of harmless stirring, hence the
I still don't quite understand why you made the remark about ABC translators, but then I haven't read everything that has been said since with due care an attention. I of course took it to mean that you didn't agre/e/e that the 2 16ths + an 1/8th notation was correct.
The funny thing is that to my ear, this notation sounds fine in ABC players such as ABCMus and ABC Navigator!
Steve
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by Jeeves Tones
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
I've put 2 examples up on my site :
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/bowed&fingeredtriplet_02.wmv
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/bowed&fingeredtriplet_03.wmv
......jig time, same bowing for the trebles, slighty different overall bowing in each clip, same example each time.
Just one way of playing "4 notes in the space of 3".
Jim
# Posted on March 9th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: "Bowed Trebles" in jigs as an exercise
Steve, ABCMus2.0 has a technique for accenting the notes so as to make the rhythm sound more realistic. I think it's user-definable. You'll find it under Options/Playback and MIDI Options/Volumes.
Trevor
# Posted on March 10th 2005 by lazyhound