In the "What is Irish music?" thread, this has been identified as one of the characteristics of Irish music. In general, this is true although in performance settings this is not necessarily the case. In Scottish music, there is a tendency to incorporate harmonies, counter melodies, second fiddle parts etc. Some people even want to do this in a session but I prefer the "Irish way" with all the melody instruments sticking to the tune.
Incidentally, I was at a concert last night where things were reversed. Flook were the main act and, as is usual for them, Brian was playing the main melody whereas Sarah mainly played counter melody/harmonies etc. It was an excellent performance, of course, and that's their way. However, the support was provided by John Martin on fiddle and Kevin MacLeod on tenor guuitar. They were playing Scottish tunes exclusively but in unison. I really thought that was a pleasant change for Scottish music and I'd like to hear a lot more of that sort of thing. Maybe, that's too simple an option for many musicians who like to indulge themselves with fancy arrangements all the time but it is nice to hear this for a change.
I should say that I'm not knocking bands who do wish to adopt imaginative arrangements in their music including Fluke. When it it's done well, it's great. However, it's nice to have something simple(I'm not suggesting that it's easy ) now and again.
I've probably "killed off" this discussion by presenting both sides of the argument in my first post!
Does anyone disagree or have anything more to add?
Not at all. I thought there might be some healthy disagreement --sorry, I meant discussion--between those who prefer to play either Scottish or Irish music. I know that this is supposed to be an Irish Music site but there's always been a big Scottish input.
Anyway, it seems that we're all pals here as far as this issue is concerned.
Can you imagine someone deciding to play harmonies all through Maurice Ravel's "Bolero"? Sure it can be done, and someone could make it sound good perhaps, but it will have changed a basic part of what makes that piece unique and beautiful. A similar purity and beauty exists with the way ITM is played, and there's no need to change it. There's a movement within ITM and Celtic music circles to re-tool the music for consumers, and that's cool, but it's a different art at that point that becomes derivative rather than representing the state of it.
I remember this one fellow who plays whistle showing up at the session who had worked out parallel harmonies to all the tunes. I was impressed with his effort, but I didn't enjoy the effect it had on the music. If a group of people with like minds got together and arranged the music with his harmonies, it might be interesting, and they might be able to build a career around it, but I would still prefer the unison sound at the end of the day when I put on recordings I enjoy, or go to the pub for a tune.
Now I realize there are moments within ITM where incidental and in some cases intentional harmonic motifs occur, but they don't predominate the music.
Unison and Simplicity, yes.
I'll never forget something Johnny Cunningham said at a concert when introducing a certain tune:
"...Simple tunes are often the most beautiful" " And they're also a hell of a lot easier to play!"
I suppose it depends on how tight your definition of “playing in unison” is. Is a fiddler playing drones on other strings not playing in unison? Or indeed using a stopped drone?
Or we can take it a step further and consider the florid use of regs by a piper like Leo Rowsome – this goes well beyond simply holding a pedal note.
Of course these examples all concern what a solo player does. But there are certain instances in a session where for a moment or two you’ll often hear harmony in the melody instruments, almost by convention. Examples might be “The Star of Munster” or “St Anne’s Reel” – you’ll sometimes hear people put the first bar up a third for effect on the last time through.
This is not to dispute that the main thing is the tune. I’m just suggesting that Irish music’s unison-ness* is still a question of degree.
Playing drones on other strings, and playing the regs on pipes, falls into the category of tonal accompaniment. Harmonies are different and usually are in themselves melodies that are parallel or counter punctual with the tune.
And the old joke:
How do you get two whistle players to play in unison?
Shoot one of them.
Sorry Max, Sheila, Danny, mad French nutter with single tune sets ......
Was at a Fleadh years ago when Jackie Daly and Seamus Creagh came last in the duets competition for not playing in unison, but it was the best bit of music all week.
That was a slower tune obviously. Sets of Jigs and reels are best in unison with a little bit of individualism, although it helps if you know what this little bit is likely to be. Otherwise a harmonious fiddle or whistle or whatever will bugger up the rhythm for everyone, and you might as well have a bad bodhran player running the show. My old friend "Big" Jack is right about these things.
I love playing in unison simply because it involves a subtle exchange between players. I also love listening to Glenn Gould playing Bach's fugues though.
what do you people think of groups like barrage? I will admit they have talent, but its definitly pop/ethnic fusion. I supposse the thing that bothers me is that alot of people are ignorant to traditional music because they are too busy listening to whats popular. I just think their missing out. I guess what brought the group barrage in particular to mind is that they have some songs written for 7 different violins. Thats alot of harmony.
It's all about knowing your tunes..
Once you know how to play a tune inside out then the next step is improvisation (yes I've used that nasty, icky word, sorry everyone. matt).
The trick is with trad is being able to do it tastefully and appropriately. It ain't no jazz party bruvva.
There's nothing worse in my book than someone who tries to harmonise all the tunes.
They are normally either on an ego trip or can't see the beauty in a simple tune. Not much harmony in that lark me thinks. It all starts sounding a bit scattered after a while too, no unison either I spose.
> Playing drones on other strings, and playing the regs on pipes, falls into the category of tonal accompaniment. Harmonies are different and usually are in themselves melodies that are parallel or counter punctual with the tune.
Seems to me our definitions are getting a tad stretched. Most musicians would understand the term unison to mean playing/singing the same pitch, possibly in octaves. Notes outside of that are going to be some form of harmony – whether in a basic form (fiddler playing drones), or something rather more intricate.
From which I would take it that our droning fiddler / piper using regs is playing unison AND is playing harmony.
It is very impressive when you get extremely precise double and triple leads. I have heard this done in rotation with other types of arrangements to give listeners a full range and change of pace. Its hard to try double and triple leads with any precision in open sessions, as it takes a lot of team practice.
Playing in Unison
Playing in Unison
In the "What is Irish music?" thread, this has been identified as one of the characteristics of Irish music. In general, this is true although in performance settings this is not necessarily the case. In Scottish music, there is a tendency to incorporate harmonies, counter melodies, second fiddle parts etc. Some people even want to do this in a session but I prefer the "Irish way" with all the melody instruments sticking to the tune.
Incidentally, I was at a concert last night where things were reversed. Flook were the main act and, as is usual for them, Brian was playing the main melody whereas Sarah mainly played counter melody/harmonies etc. It was an excellent performance, of course, and that's their way. However, the support was provided by John Martin on fiddle and Kevin MacLeod on tenor guuitar. They were playing Scottish tunes exclusively but in unison. I really thought that was a pleasant change for Scottish music and I'd like to hear a lot more of that sort of thing. Maybe, that's too simple an option for many musicians who like to indulge themselves with fancy arrangements all the time but it is nice to hear this for a change.
I should say that I'm not knocking bands who do wish to adopt imaginative arrangements in their music including Fluke. When it it's done well, it's great. However, it's nice to have something simple(I'm not suggesting that it's easy
) now and again.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Playing in Unison
Sorry, if I didn't make myself clear, I'm inviting you all to comment.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Playing in Unison
I agree.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
I agree with BegF.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Playing in Unison
I've probably "killed off" this discussion by presenting both sides of the argument in my first post!
Does anyone disagree or have anything more to add?
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Playing in Unison
I completely disagree with Showdaddy.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
'I agree', we all reply in unison... (Hey, that's the name of my Union!)
A very harmonious thread
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Cath
Re: Playing in Unison
no no...it's a very melodic thread !
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
I agree with that too!!!!!!!!
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Cath
Re: Playing in Unison
anybody agrees with me?
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by MM
Re: Playing in Unison
I do.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Playing in Unison
Nice to see a lot of harmony about his unison issue
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Cuso
Re: Playing in Unison
John J is going to kill us, you know that don;t you.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
yes-just as long as he kills us all at once....gotta stay in unison!
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by aaron b
Re: Playing in Unison
Not at all. I thought there might be some healthy disagreement --sorry, I meant discussion--between those who prefer to play either Scottish or Irish music. I know that this is supposed to be an Irish Music site but there's always been a big Scottish input.
Anyway, it seems that we're all pals here as far as this issue is concerned.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Playing in Unison
I need to get educated on the Scottish side of things,
maybe I should go to Uni, son ?
I'm reallly really sorry.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
Not at all!!
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Playing in Unison
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Playing in Unison
Oops. That was directed to John J. Looks like you are butting in AGAIN BegF!!
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Playing in Unison
I played with a Scots fiddler last night, and we did not play in Unison, but not for lack of trying...
What was the question?
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Playing in Unison
Something to do with butts.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by BegF
Re: Playing in Unison
Can you imagine someone deciding to play harmonies all through Maurice Ravel's "Bolero"? Sure it can be done, and someone could make it sound good perhaps, but it will have changed a basic part of what makes that piece unique and beautiful. A similar purity and beauty exists with the way ITM is played, and there's no need to change it. There's a movement within ITM and Celtic music circles to re-tool the music for consumers, and that's cool, but it's a different art at that point that becomes derivative rather than representing the state of it.
I remember this one fellow who plays whistle showing up at the session who had worked out parallel harmonies to all the tunes. I was impressed with his effort, but I didn't enjoy the effect it had on the music. If a group of people with like minds got together and arranged the music with his harmonies, it might be interesting, and they might be able to build a career around it, but I would still prefer the unison sound at the end of the day when I put on recordings I enjoy, or go to the pub for a tune.
Now I realize there are moments within ITM where incidental and in some cases intentional harmonic motifs occur, but they don't predominate the music.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing in Unison
Unison and Simplicity, yes.
I'll never forget something Johnny Cunningham said at a concert when introducing a certain tune:
"...Simple tunes are often the most beautiful" " And they're also a hell of a lot easier to play!"
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by goatwhacker
Re: Playing in Unison
I suppose it depends on how tight your definition of “playing in unison” is. Is a fiddler playing drones on other strings not playing in unison? Or indeed using a stopped drone?
Or we can take it a step further and consider the florid use of regs by a piper like Leo Rowsome – this goes well beyond simply holding a pedal note.
Of course these examples all concern what a solo player does. But there are certain instances in a session where for a moment or two you’ll often hear harmony in the melody instruments, almost by convention. Examples might be “The Star of Munster” or “St Anne’s Reel” – you’ll sometimes hear people put the first bar up a third for effect on the last time through.
This is not to dispute that the main thing is the tune. I’m just suggesting that Irish music’s unison-ness* is still a question of degree.
Ed.
* © 2005 Neologisms-R-Us
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Presumin Ed
Re: Playing in Unison
Playing drones on other strings, and playing the regs on pipes, falls into the category of tonal accompaniment. Harmonies are different and usually are in themselves melodies that are parallel or counter punctual with the tune.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Playing in Unison
Counter punctual? Sounds like my work habits...
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Jode
Re: Playing in Unison
And the old joke:
......
How do you get two whistle players to play in unison?
Shoot one of them.
Sorry Max, Sheila, Danny, mad French nutter with single tune sets
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by Cath
Re: Playing in Unison
Was at a Fleadh years ago when Jackie Daly and Seamus Creagh came last in the duets competition for not playing in unison, but it was the best bit of music all week.
That was a slower tune obviously. Sets of Jigs and reels are best in unison with a little bit of individualism, although it helps if you know what this little bit is likely to be. Otherwise a harmonious fiddle or whistle or whatever will bugger up the rhythm for everyone, and you might as well have a bad bodhran player running the show. My old friend "Big" Jack is right about these things.
# Posted on February 24th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Playing in Unison
I love playing in unison simply because it involves a subtle exchange between players. I also love listening to Glenn Gould playing Bach's fugues though.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by slainte
Re: Playing in Unison
what do you people think of groups like barrage? I will admit they have talent, but its definitly pop/ethnic fusion. I supposse the thing that bothers me is that alot of people are ignorant to traditional music because they are too busy listening to whats popular. I just think their missing out. I guess what brought the group barrage in particular to mind is that they have some songs written for 7 different violins. Thats alot of harmony.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by banana512
Re: Playing in Unison
It's all about knowing your tunes..
Once you know how to play a tune inside out then the next step is improvisation (yes I've used that nasty, icky word, sorry everyone. matt).
The trick is with trad is being able to do it tastefully and appropriately. It ain't no jazz party bruvva.
There's nothing worse in my book than someone who tries to harmonise all the tunes.
They are normally either on an ego trip or can't see the beauty in a simple tune. Not much harmony in that lark me thinks. It all starts sounding a bit scattered after a while too, no unison either I spose.
Play the feckin thing properly or not at all!!!!
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by Matt&Clare
Re: Playing in Unison
> Playing drones on other strings, and playing the regs on pipes, falls into the category of tonal accompaniment. Harmonies are different and usually are in themselves melodies that are parallel or counter punctual with the tune.
Seems to me our definitions are getting a tad stretched. Most musicians would understand the term unison to mean playing/singing the same pitch, possibly in octaves. Notes outside of that are going to be some form of harmony – whether in a basic form (fiddler playing drones), or something rather more intricate.
From which I would take it that our droning fiddler / piper using regs is playing unison AND is playing harmony.
Ed.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by Presumin Ed
Re: Playing in Unison
Well, sometimes harmonies are great, and sometimes they aren't - that's all. Like everything else, they're lovely if used in moderation.
# Posted on February 25th 2005 by Cath
Re: Playing in Unison
I agree completely.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by mikesuth
Re: Playing in Unison
It is very impressive when you get extremely precise double and triple leads. I have heard this done in rotation with other types of arrangements to give listeners a full range and change of pace. Its hard to try double and triple leads with any precision in open sessions, as it takes a lot of team practice.
# Posted on February 26th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Playing in Unison
I think a reel sounds best played as a 6-part fugue.
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by granama
Re: Playing in Unison
Meaning, played in a fugue state, David? ;)
# Posted on February 27th 2005 by Reverend