OK. So I've gotten to a point where I am learning tunes quickly and can play with at speed with the proper feel. Now I'm beginning to take on more ornamentation. The tunes I learn are all plain-jane vanilla versions. Same A both times. Same B both times. I'm beginning to take tunes I know well and am beginning to deconstruct them a bit and putting in a triplet here and there or something, but I'd really like to push it a bit more.
Are there any good articles out there on building up a tune? I've read Roger Landis' article on Mel Bay's Mandolin Sessions. It's not bad.
Share your experiences. Tell me about your own experiences learning to ornament tunes with mando...
I think there are articles out there, Keyton, but I haven't taken the time to read them thoroughly. I've come to believe the right approach to the "where to put them" part of ornamentation is to listen to as much good stuff (all instruments) as you can, and get it by osmosis.
You're pretty well limited to triplets or bursts of tremelo, hammer-ons, pull-offs, double stops and chords, and variations, combinations and permutations thereof.
Learn how to do these things and then put them in where you think they ought to go, without losing the rhythm or flow. It's not set in stone, with mandolin in particular you're pretty much free to make it up as you go along - the tradition is pretty recent and the stylistic range is wide from individual players rather than regions.
and do a search on Shetland group Hom Bru if you want to hear an idea of where you can go with all this - you'll come across some clips you can download, better still get some Hom Bru CDs. Gary Peterson and Davy (the other mando bloke ) are mandolicious as well as banjotastic.
I think mandolin player Dan Beimborn (or it could be someone else) has put together a book on developing variations in Irish music. Dan hangs out on the message board at www.mandolincafe.org, so you could ask about it there. I have not seen the book but I think it goes further than the use of individual ornaments and into the world of melodic variation, which might be the next step.I have browsed through 'The Irish Mandolin Tutor' by Padraig Carroll (another mandolincafe frequenter) and he covers some aspects of ornamentation and variation.
I would stress, however, that the best things for it are time and patience. Listen to lots of traditional players, not just mandolin players (I have never been able to find many solo recordings of Irish music on mandolin), and the bits you like the best will get absorbed over time. Sooner or later what goes in will come out, in one form or another. You will instinctively try to imitate the style and ornamentation of your favourite players, whether they play fiddle, flute, or box. There is probably not much point in trying to replicate, say, a flute or fiddle roll note for note (although a few players do it effectively) on mandolin, as the amount of technical precision involved would probably distract you from the music itself(thats something to tackle when everything else becomes easy) - but you will discover your own forms of ornamentation which articulate a tune in the same way.
Meanwhile, keep practising triplets, as these can be the basis for many kinds of plucked ornament. Personally, I have not ventured into the realm of hammer-ons and pull-offs, but some players use them liberally. The best way to learn such things as double stopping, open string drones and melodic variation is to make mistakes and repeat them if they sound good.
Bren says you are pretty much limited and I'm afraid he's right. If you're really interested in the tunes and their decoration (it's the same thing) then see if you can transfer to the fiddle
Michael and Bren - an instrument is defined by its limitations. The fiddle has them too.
I do appreciate the point that this music and its performance styles have grown up around such instruments as the pipes flute and fiddle, and not mandolin, banjo or bouzouki, so naturally the fiddle is better suited to reproducing the music in its current state of evolution (in fact, I have taken up the fiddle in the last year, partly for this reason). I also appreciate that the range of ornaments available on the mandolin is much narrower than on the fiddle. However, I do not feel that this necessarily limits the expressive capabilities of the instrument - it is more down to the player (I am not comparing myself to any other musician here, but I think I express myself better on the mandolin than I do in words, so please bear that in mind when you read this.). Whilst a mandolin player cannot replicate note for note what a traditional fiddler or piper plays, they can express their music (by which I mean the music that they hear in their head, feel in their heart etc.) in such ways as their instrument permits. Whilst I, personally, have no desire whatsoever to alter the tradition, I think that new instruments, and the playing styles that come about as a result of them, are a key factor keeping it a living tradition.
Hi Keytonw,
For me, my mandolin playing was always very standard with not much ornamentation at all...
However after hearing alot of Lunny/ Irvine stuff, I realised there could be a very unique sound to the mandolin.
Not saying its right or wrong but its my favorite way to play yhe mando....
I don't think I quite agree with the "pretty much limited" viewpoint of mandolin. I think I would agree that I'd much rather listen (for any length of time) to a solo fiddle than a solo mandolin. But I'd have to say the same about a solo bass guitar, or drums ,or trumpet, or (fill in the blank). But in an ensemble, in some cases, these instruments either make the tune or shape it irrevocably. Ensemble playing isn't just about your own instrument, it's also about knowing your fellow players' instruments.
Regarding learning ornamentation by recorded example - I hope that goes better for you, keyton, than it did for me. After two years of learning to play cleanly and up to speed, and listening to everything I could get my hands on, I finally found a good teacher. She removed the jazz and the american folk and the new england folk and the steely dan and the al jareau and the joni mitchell and everything else I was injecting - things that were the essence of me at that time, but not of ITM.
ADAE, Its all personal preference. In banjo i use alot of triplets, probably too many, but i tend not to put them in the spots where most players would...
On the bouzouki or mandolin i dont use triplets that much, cause I dont like the sound you get off the double strings..
Pigott actually played alot of triplets, but unlike many banjo players, he preferred to play lower rather then higher (volume)
Anybody listened to Mick Moloney's "Strings Attached" album lately? I had it on over the weekend and marvelled once again at the crisp ornamentation on mandolin (and banjo). A veritable baroque flurry of notes, sometimes. I don't think he ever plays triplets all on the same note. A friend of mine is also accomplished at that style of diddly, having learned it from Professor Moloney in a workshop. I sometimes think about pursuing it for guitar, but it looks too much like work.
Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
OK. So I've gotten to a point where I am learning tunes quickly and can play with at speed with the proper feel. Now I'm beginning to take on more ornamentation. The tunes I learn are all plain-jane vanilla versions. Same A both times. Same B both times. I'm beginning to take tunes I know well and am beginning to deconstruct them a bit and putting in a triplet here and there or something, but I'd really like to push it a bit more.
Are there any good articles out there on building up a tune? I've read Roger Landis' article on Mel Bay's Mandolin Sessions. It's not bad.
Share your experiences. Tell me about your own experiences learning to ornament tunes with mando...
Thanks all.
Keyton
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by keytonw
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
I think there are articles out there, Keyton, but I haven't taken the time to read them thoroughly. I've come to believe the right approach to the "where to put them" part of ornamentation is to listen to as much good stuff (all instruments) as you can, and get it by osmosis.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by grego
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
You're pretty well limited to triplets or bursts of tremelo, hammer-ons, pull-offs, double stops and chords, and variations, combinations and permutations thereof.
Learn how to do these things and then put them in where you think they ought to go, without losing the rhythm or flow. It's not set in stone, with mandolin in particular you're pretty much free to make it up as you go along - the tradition is pretty recent and the stylistic range is wide from individual players rather than regions.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by Bren
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
and do a search on Shetland group Hom Bru if you want to hear an idea of where you can go with all this - you'll come across some clips you can download, better still get some Hom Bru CDs. Gary Peterson and Davy (the other mando bloke ) are mandolicious as well as banjotastic.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by Bren
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
I think mandolin player Dan Beimborn (or it could be someone else) has put together a book on developing variations in Irish music. Dan hangs out on the message board at www.mandolincafe.org, so you could ask about it there. I have not seen the book but I think it goes further than the use of individual ornaments and into the world of melodic variation, which might be the next step.I have browsed through 'The Irish Mandolin Tutor' by Padraig Carroll (another mandolincafe frequenter) and he covers some aspects of ornamentation and variation.
I would stress, however, that the best things for it are time and patience. Listen to lots of traditional players, not just mandolin players (I have never been able to find many solo recordings of Irish music on mandolin), and the bits you like the best will get absorbed over time. Sooner or later what goes in will come out, in one form or another. You will instinctively try to imitate the style and ornamentation of your favourite players, whether they play fiddle, flute, or box. There is probably not much point in trying to replicate, say, a flute or fiddle roll note for note (although a few players do it effectively) on mandolin, as the amount of technical precision involved would probably distract you from the music itself(thats something to tackle when everything else becomes easy) - but you will discover your own forms of ornamentation which articulate a tune in the same way.
Meanwhile, keep practising triplets, as these can be the basis for many kinds of plucked ornament. Personally, I have not ventured into the realm of hammer-ons and pull-offs, but some players use them liberally. The best way to learn such things as double stopping, open string drones and melodic variation is to make mistakes and repeat them if they sound good.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Bren says you are pretty much limited and I'm afraid he's right. If you're really interested in the tunes and their decoration (it's the same thing) then see if you can transfer to the fiddle
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by llig leahcim
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Michael and Bren - an instrument is defined by its limitations. The fiddle has them too.
I do appreciate the point that this music and its performance styles have grown up around such instruments as the pipes flute and fiddle, and not mandolin, banjo or bouzouki, so naturally the fiddle is better suited to reproducing the music in its current state of evolution (in fact, I have taken up the fiddle in the last year, partly for this reason). I also appreciate that the range of ornaments available on the mandolin is much narrower than on the fiddle. However, I do not feel that this necessarily limits the expressive capabilities of the instrument - it is more down to the player (I am not comparing myself to any other musician here, but I think I express myself better on the mandolin than I do in words, so please bear that in mind when you read this.). Whilst a mandolin player cannot replicate note for note what a traditional fiddler or piper plays, they can express their music (by which I mean the music that they hear in their head, feel in their heart etc.) in such ways as their instrument permits. Whilst I, personally, have no desire whatsoever to alter the tradition, I think that new instruments, and the playing styles that come about as a result of them, are a key factor keeping it a living tradition.
# Posted on February 20th 2005 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Hi Keytonw,
For me, my mandolin playing was always very standard with not much ornamentation at all...
However after hearing alot of Lunny/ Irvine stuff, I realised there could be a very unique sound to the mandolin.
Not saying its right or wrong but its my favorite way to play yhe mando....
# Posted on February 21st 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Check out Michael Kerry's CD "Rocky Road" with only mandolin and guitar.
# Posted on February 21st 2005 by griffith
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
for my taste many mandolin (or bouzouki or banjo)
players tend to overdo their triplets and stuff...
the old (reduced) style like charlie pigott used to play
on de dananns 2nd and third album is so great!
dont you think?
günther
# Posted on February 22nd 2005 by adae
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
I don't think I quite agree with the "pretty much limited" viewpoint of mandolin. I think I would agree that I'd much rather listen (for any length of time) to a solo fiddle than a solo mandolin. But I'd have to say the same about a solo bass guitar, or drums ,or trumpet, or (fill in the blank). But in an ensemble, in some cases, these instruments either make the tune or shape it irrevocably. Ensemble playing isn't just about your own instrument, it's also about knowing your fellow players' instruments.
Regarding learning ornamentation by recorded example - I hope that goes better for you, keyton, than it did for me. After two years of learning to play cleanly and up to speed, and listening to everything I could get my hands on, I finally found a good teacher. She removed the jazz and the american folk and the new england folk and the steely dan and the al jareau and the joni mitchell and everything else I was injecting - things that were the essence of me at that time, but not of ITM.
# Posted on February 22nd 2005 by BarryM
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
ADAE, Its all personal preference. In banjo i use alot of triplets, probably too many, but i tend not to put them in the spots where most players would...
On the bouzouki or mandolin i dont use triplets that much, cause I dont like the sound you get off the double strings..
Pigott actually played alot of triplets, but unlike many banjo players, he preferred to play lower rather then higher (volume)
# Posted on February 22nd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Mandolin: Learning Ornamentation
Anybody listened to Mick Moloney's "Strings Attached" album lately? I had it on over the weekend and marvelled once again at the crisp ornamentation on mandolin (and banjo). A veritable baroque flurry of notes, sometimes. I don't think he ever plays triplets all on the same note. A friend of mine is also accomplished at that style of diddly, having learned it from Professor Moloney in a workshop. I sometimes think about pursuing it for guitar, but it looks too much like work.
# Posted on February 22nd 2005 by Bob himself