I have heard that it's quite common to get back ache or other posture problems from playing fiddle. I've started having lower back ache over the last 3 months (I'm doing a lot less tai chi and lot more fiddle playing, so maybe I need to change the balance between the two). I try to make sure I' ve not twisted and started peering over my left shoulder, anyone else have problems and anyone have any good solutions?
I have the same problem when I sit and play for long periods.
I have found it helpful to stand when playing for long periods, I feel even better when I "pace" around the room, although you can't read music at the same time. I pace when I do my scales and arpeggios. You could also try standing in the standard classical style with the left foot ahead of the right for correct balance.
Good luck
Mary
I don't get shoulder or back tension unless I play for over 4 or 5 hours in a sitting. It's important to try to remain as relaxed as you possibly can. (That's good for your tone as well). Instead of trying to choose between Tai Chi and playing, do them both at the same time. When you feel something knotting up, take a little break and stretch it out right away, breathe, and remind that particular muscle to relax. Also, it helps to make sure you are not holding onto tension when you begin.
"I have found it helpful to stand when playing for long periods."
That's funny - I find that extremely uncomfortable myself. Then again, I have always played sitting, except at gigs and rehearsals for gigs, so maybe it just depends what you're used to.
"You could also try standing in the standard classical style with the left foot ahead of the right for correct balance."
I imagine that would look pretty goofy in a session.
I ache if I sit or stand too long ( middle age approaching or something) but have been recommended and given some basics in the Alexander Technique. Its helps but not completely. Theres plenty about it on the 'net.
I always play standing, but I don't know where my feet are...well,other than the obvious. I actually find that if I try and sit down to play my leg gets in the way of the bow. So how do you manage that Kerri? Maybe it would be good for me to try alternating sitting and standing ...I think I'll try the walking aout thing and the stopping and tai chi-ing or stretching too.
Goodness. I don't know how I manage not to get my legs in the way of the bow. It never occured to me they could. I will have to do a bit of a lab when I get home. It would look pretty stupid to start miming in here. My gut feeling is that you're probably slouching when you sit, which is causing both the back problems and the leg bumping.
there are two goodsolutions
1 its indeed Alexander technique, like caraaz said.
2 good pind guinness (or whiskey....) your muscles will be some more relexed
I had some back issues a few years ago, Carly, and my racewalking coach noticed that I was over-arching my back . After she pointed it out, I noticed that I was doing the same thing when I stood to play the fiddle--kind of a body tension thing. I learned to straighten and relax my lower back, and the pain went away.
Back when I first took up the fiddle, I bought a book by Yehudi Menuhin (I think it's called Violin) that deals with some yogic aspects of playing. It's mostly about posture, attitude, movement, etc. I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't looked at it again in many years, so I don't know if it would be considered old hat or common knowledge today.
Since I've been restarting my fiddle adventure, I notice that I can't play very long without getting a nagging ache in my back, under the left shoulder blade. I think some of this is because I'm just generally out of shape. I've neglected exercise and stretching for a while and I know that's bad for, well, everything.
I've heard from lots of people that the Alexander Technique is really good for musicians. Is it something you really need a qualified teacher for, or can it be learned well enough from books or videos?
I have an back issues off and on for a long time. I tried taking the alexander method from a teacher, and wasted my money. If you buy the right books they are wonderful. Since its a book you can go at your own pace, and use what you think is useful, cause as much as some teachers would like to believe they know what your body feels, they just dont. In this sort of situation self help is the best. Besides the whole alexander technique is about learning to be more cognitive of what your body is doing and how it is feeling. I also reccomend stretching alot before and after playing. Try standing for a change instead of sitting all the time. I find its better to have good posture when your standing up. Plus balance is easier. Also make sure the rest of your body is healthy and fit, cause believe it or not, being a musician is very physical. If anythign though, stretch and pay attention to your posture. Also try to make sure your playing is relaxed, not only will you sound better, but you will be less pron to injury.
I don't know how to solve the real issue, the posture you have to assume to play fiddle. However, what I have found to be helpful is a slanted sit up board. Get a steep angle, secure your feet and just hang downward and relax. Maintain this for a few minutes to stretch out the vertebrae and disks. It is extremely important to get up by rolling gently and slowly to the side to a position on hands and knees. Its important to wait until you are comfortable with proceeding. I would do this at the end of a stretching routine. Best Wishes!;-]
Good point, Ceol. I have one of those boards propped up to make a slightly steeper angle. I should use it more than I do. Hanging by your ankles for ten minutes is a great rejuvenating stretch.
Lab complete: All I need to do to whap the bow into my legs is hold the fiddle at a slightly different angle, even if I'm not slouching. If it goes out at more than a 45 degree angle from straight ahead, I'm whapping. I'll see if I can find a visual aid.
I like to play the fiddle standing up. It definitely leads to less back trouble where I'm concerned. Sitting down is where the trouble begins. When I have to sit, I love my Stokke kneeler chair - I haven' had a bad back episode since starting to use it 3 years ago (Lisa Simpson has one too, I've noticed!) It's a fallacy that you have to have a chair back - you slump into it and don't support your spine properly. But it's also got something to do with not playing the guitar much now - the posture for playing the guitar - curved spine, hunched shoulders, stretched arms etc is deadly for me. When I'm doing artwork I also have to stand - I'm convinced you get more energy flow. In fact I prefer eating, drinking, reading, whatever - standing up.
thanks everyone and especially thaks Kerri for the pics! Actually I almost always play standing up, my teacher says I should (!) but I use a kneeling stool if I do sit. I think I probably do have too much tilt on my fiddle (I have been told off for that on a few occassions as it effects my string crossing) which would create the leg-whapping, but not the back ache (?). Wow, so tricky this fiddle thing. How do you stop tilting your fiddle then? (i don't slouch, I'm sure)
A good well placed shoulder rest should help with the tilt.
Let me start by making it clear that I know nothing about technique(*passing you an ample supply of salt*).
It certainly appears to me that you can hold your instrument in the crotch of your elbow, play it left handed, sit the headstock on your knee (thank you Jim) and tilt the thing any way the fancy takes you and still sound brilliant if you are a fiddler as opposed to a classical violinist. I've seen greatly celebrated fiddlers doing all kinds of things that would give a classical teacher a hernia. I'm suspicious of a "fiddle" teacher who says you should always play standing up. How does she expect you to tap both feet at once? You might have found one of those classical violin teachers in disguise I keep running into in my fruitless search for guidance. Save some of that salt I gave you for the things your teacher tells you.
I have dreadful posture - playing both sitting and standing - but no backache!! When I had a teacher I used to get regularly told off for playing standing on one leg and when sitting, balancing my elbow on my knee when I was tired!!! Finding a playing position that is comfortable is an individual thing and obviously people more prone to backache etc have to think about it more. I have no doubt that as I get even older I will have to adjust my style to compensate for aches and pains!!
I'm a personal believer in the posture being more or less the same whether you are playing the fiddle or not - sounds strange maybe, but in my early years of playing I did get neck and back ache through bad posture till I got 'put right'.
There are some posture photos on my site under 'general good form' at http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/ . The photos were taken with me standing up, but the posture is the same when seated, without any obstruction from the knees. I'm not saying this is *the* definitive posture, but it works for me and lots of others.
And I would (seriously) keep up on the Tai Chi as well. I find doing squats with a lightish weight helps improve the endurance of the back muscles.
I’m a pretty new fiddle player, and thus have not had time to work myself into any major health problems, but I do have some pretty weird fiddling poses. (Sitting on the kitchen table with my feet on the windowsill is probably the worst, so far.) I occasionally get a bit of a backache, but getting up and walking around (while warming up or doing scales) seems to help some.
My mother (a mandolin player) got a back problem a few months ago, and she bought a machine (made by a company called ‘Hang Ups’) to stretch out on. It's kind of like an angled sit-up thingy, only one uses their own body weight to swing upside down. Using this machine really helps after playing.
This may sound goofy, and already touched upon. Do you use a shoulder rest? After years of playing without one I started having some neck and upper back problems.
A friend told me it was because I wasn't using a shoulder rest. At first I just laughed at him but then heard it from another fiddler so I broke down and got one. It is one of those German ones that form to your shoulder, kind of expensive, but very worth it.
fiddlers back ache?
fiddlers back ache?
I have heard that it's quite common to get back ache or other posture problems from playing fiddle. I've started having lower back ache over the last 3 months (I'm doing a lot less tai chi and lot more fiddle playing, so maybe I need to change the balance between the two). I try to make sure I' ve not twisted and started peering over my left shoulder, anyone else have problems and anyone have any good solutions?
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by carly
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Hi Carly,
I have the same problem when I sit and play for long periods.
I have found it helpful to stand when playing for long periods, I feel even better when I "pace" around the room, although you can't read music at the same time. I pace when I do my scales and arpeggios. You could also try standing in the standard classical style with the left foot ahead of the right for correct balance.
Good luck
Mary
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Antikhntr
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I don't get shoulder or back tension unless I play for over 4 or 5 hours in a sitting. It's important to try to remain as relaxed as you possibly can. (That's good for your tone as well). Instead of trying to choose between Tai Chi and playing, do them both at the same time. When you feel something knotting up, take a little break and stretch it out right away, breathe, and remind that particular muscle to relax. Also, it helps to make sure you are not holding onto tension when you begin.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
"I have found it helpful to stand when playing for long periods."
That's funny - I find that extremely uncomfortable myself. Then again, I have always played sitting, except at gigs and rehearsals for gigs, so maybe it just depends what you're used to.
"You could also try standing in the standard classical style with the left foot ahead of the right for correct balance."
I imagine that would look pretty goofy in a session.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Hi
I ache if I sit or stand too long ( middle age approaching or something) but have been recommended and given some basics in the Alexander Technique. Its helps but not completely. Theres plenty about it on the 'net.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Caraaz
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I always play standing, but I don't know where my feet are...well,other than the obvious. I actually find that if I try and sit down to play my leg gets in the way of the bow. So how do you manage that Kerri? Maybe it would be good for me to try alternating sitting and standing ...I think I'll try the walking aout thing and the stopping and tai chi-ing or stretching too.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by carly
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Goodness. I don't know how I manage not to get my legs in the way of the bow. It never occured to me they could. I will have to do a bit of a lab when I get home. It would look pretty stupid to start miming in here. My gut feeling is that you're probably slouching when you sit, which is causing both the back problems and the leg bumping.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
there are two goodsolutions
1 its indeed Alexander technique, like caraaz said.
2 good pind guinness (or whiskey....) your muscles will be some more relexed
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by fiddlenils
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I had some back issues a few years ago, Carly, and my racewalking coach noticed that I was over-arching my back . After she pointed it out, I noticed that I was doing the same thing when I stood to play the fiddle--kind of a body tension thing. I learned to straighten and relax my lower back, and the pain went away.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Back when I first took up the fiddle, I bought a book by Yehudi Menuhin (I think it's called Violin) that deals with some yogic aspects of playing. It's mostly about posture, attitude, movement, etc. I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't looked at it again in many years, so I don't know if it would be considered old hat or common knowledge today.
Since I've been restarting my fiddle adventure, I notice that I can't play very long without getting a nagging ache in my back, under the left shoulder blade. I think some of this is because I'm just generally out of shape. I've neglected exercise and stretching for a while and I know that's bad for, well, everything.
I've heard from lots of people that the Alexander Technique is really good for musicians. Is it something you really need a qualified teacher for, or can it be learned well enough from books or videos?
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I have an back issues off and on for a long time. I tried taking the alexander method from a teacher, and wasted my money. If you buy the right books they are wonderful. Since its a book you can go at your own pace, and use what you think is useful, cause as much as some teachers would like to believe they know what your body feels, they just dont. In this sort of situation self help is the best. Besides the whole alexander technique is about learning to be more cognitive of what your body is doing and how it is feeling. I also reccomend stretching alot before and after playing. Try standing for a change instead of sitting all the time. I find its better to have good posture when your standing up. Plus balance is easier. Also make sure the rest of your body is healthy and fit, cause believe it or not, being a musician is very physical. If anythign though, stretch and pay attention to your posture. Also try to make sure your playing is relaxed, not only will you sound better, but you will be less pron to injury.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by banana512
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I don't know how to solve the real issue, the posture you have to assume to play fiddle. However, what I have found to be helpful is a slanted sit up board. Get a steep angle, secure your feet and just hang downward and relax. Maintain this for a few minutes to stretch out the vertebrae and disks. It is extremely important to get up by rolling gently and slowly to the side to a position on hands and knees. Its important to wait until you are comfortable with proceeding. I would do this at the end of a stretching routine. Best Wishes!;-]
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Good point, Ceol. I have one of those boards propped up to make a slightly steeper angle. I should use it more than I do. Hanging by your ankles for ten minutes is a great rejuvenating stretch.
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Yup, down here in the Batcave, we love a good hang....
:o
# Posted on February 18th 2005 by Michele Sims
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Lab complete: All I need to do to whap the bow into my legs is hold the fiddle at a slightly different angle, even if I'm not slouching. If it goes out at more than a 45 degree angle from straight ahead, I'm whapping. I'll see if I can find a visual aid.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
A good whap-free sitting posture:
http://www.peoplesmusic.org/Winter_2002/Photos/fiddler.jpg
I'm in love with this guy, but he has terrible posture:
http://www.modjourn.brown.edu/Image/Thoma/Fiddler.jpg
This guy is a definite leg-whapper.
http://members.cox.net/rkris4/tnk//images/tnkrishnan.jpg
This is the "standard classical style" Mary was talking about:
http://www.leetaru.com/images/pub2/violin/violin.jpg
(with a wee bit of the "everextended back" Batlady mentioned.)
It's tough to find good visual aides with Google, I've just discovered.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Lol. You'll have to wait. I have business to attend to.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I like to play the fiddle standing up. It definitely leads to less back trouble where I'm concerned. Sitting down is where the trouble begins. When I have to sit, I love my Stokke kneeler chair - I haven' had a bad back episode since starting to use it 3 years ago (Lisa Simpson has one too, I've noticed!) It's a fallacy that you have to have a chair back - you slump into it and don't support your spine properly. But it's also got something to do with not playing the guitar much now - the posture for playing the guitar - curved spine, hunched shoulders, stretched arms etc is deadly for me. When I'm doing artwork I also have to stand - I'm convinced you get more energy flow. In fact I prefer eating, drinking, reading, whatever - standing up.
# Posted on February 19th 2005 by RichardB
Re: fiddlers back ache?
thanks everyone and especially thaks Kerri for the pics! Actually I almost always play standing up, my teacher says I should (!) but I use a kneeling stool if I do sit. I think I probably do have too much tilt on my fiddle (I have been told off for that on a few occassions as it effects my string crossing) which would create the leg-whapping, but not the back ache (?). Wow, so tricky this fiddle thing. How do you stop tilting your fiddle then? (i don't slouch, I'm sure)
# Posted on February 20th 2005 by carly
Re: fiddlers back ache?
A good well placed shoulder rest should help with the tilt.
Let me start by making it clear that I know nothing about technique(*passing you an ample supply of salt*).
It certainly appears to me that you can hold your instrument in the crotch of your elbow, play it left handed, sit the headstock on your knee (thank you Jim) and tilt the thing any way the fancy takes you and still sound brilliant if you are a fiddler as opposed to a classical violinist. I've seen greatly celebrated fiddlers doing all kinds of things that would give a classical teacher a hernia. I'm suspicious of a "fiddle" teacher who says you should always play standing up. How does she expect you to tap both feet at once? You might have found one of those classical violin teachers in disguise I keep running into in my fruitless search for guidance. Save some of that salt I gave you for the things your teacher tells you.
# Posted on February 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I have dreadful posture - playing both sitting and standing - but no backache!! When I had a teacher I used to get regularly told off for playing standing on one leg and when sitting, balancing my elbow on my knee when I was tired!!! Finding a playing position that is comfortable is an individual thing and obviously people more prone to backache etc have to think about it more. I have no doubt that as I get even older I will have to adjust my style to compensate for aches and pains!!
# Posted on February 20th 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: fiddlers back ache?
I'm a personal believer in the posture being more or less the same whether you are playing the fiddle or not - sounds strange maybe, but in my early years of playing I did get neck and back ache through bad posture till I got 'put right'.
There are some posture photos on my site under 'general good form' at http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/ . The photos were taken with me standing up, but the posture is the same when seated, without any obstruction from the knees. I'm not saying this is *the* definitive posture, but it works for me and lots of others.
And I would (seriously) keep up on the Tai Chi as well. I find doing squats with a lightish weight helps improve the endurance of the back muscles.
Jim
# Posted on February 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: fiddlers back ache?
Hi--
I’m a pretty new fiddle player, and thus have not had time to work myself into any major health problems, but I do have some pretty weird fiddling poses. (Sitting on the kitchen table with my feet on the windowsill is probably the worst, so far.) I occasionally get a bit of a backache, but getting up and walking around (while warming up or doing scales) seems to help some.
My mother (a mandolin player) got a back problem a few months ago, and she bought a machine (made by a company called ‘Hang Ups’) to stretch out on. It's kind of like an angled sit-up thingy, only one uses their own body weight to swing upside down. Using this machine really helps after playing.
# Posted on February 22nd 2005 by Smarmy Scribbler
Re: fiddlers back ache?
This may sound goofy, and already touched upon. Do you use a shoulder rest? After years of playing without one I started having some neck and upper back problems.
A friend told me it was because I wasn't using a shoulder rest. At first I just laughed at him but then heard it from another fiddler so I broke down and got one. It is one of those German ones that form to your shoulder, kind of expensive, but very worth it.
I don't hurt like I did.
# Posted on February 23rd 2005 by flyinfiddler