Now I'm not talking about jazz, rock, or any other form of pop music, but is there any other ethnic music like ITM that has spread around the Globe and is taken up by so many people in the same way?
I would want to add Scottish Traditional Music, but you are indeed right. My post is coming from California, USA. Maybe others that respond to this discussion can identify where they are. It would be fun to see how much of the world is involved in these discussions. Best Wishes.
Scottish music? In Japan you'll hear quite a lot of traffic lights playing the melody of a strathspey for blind people. And you know, Korean people used to sing their national anthem to the melody of "Auld Lang Syne."
Delta or Piedmont Blues come to mind, but those arguably have "spread around the Globe" by riding the coat-tails of their popular offspring, e.g. rock. To me then the interesting aspect of this is that ITM is recorded and listened to, but it's not pop and has no obvious pop derivitives, yet it still is relatively "popular" and many amateurs enjoy playing it as a hobby (should I say obsession?). I'm curious if there's a similar phenomenon with Flamenco, Fado or Mariachi, about all of which I know nothing. Anyone know the number of a good ethnomusicologist?
"Auld Lang Syne." doesn't count the same way "Danny Boy" or "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" because they are cliché. You can find other ethnic music forms that have spread around the Globe to a certain degree, but compared to ITM? I suspect to wide spread interest in ITM would dwarf other ethnic forms. (Excluding blues because, as mentioned above, is riding on the coattails of the pop music it spawned.)
Tango, Samba and its offspring Bossa Nova, Afro-Cuban, Flamenco, to be honest I'd have to say that various Latin styles of traditional music far surpass Irish in world popularity.
There is also Calypso, Hawaiian and some other Polynesian styles that likely equal Irish in popularity, Indian music is coming up fast from behind, and don't forget good, ol' gypsy fiddle.
I'm also of a mind that discounting jazz is like saying, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. . ."
I'd also like some convincing that Delta and Piedmont blues rode the coat tails of Rock. I can see the point moreso with Delta (and even moreso with Robert Johnson, but he, even though he came from the Delta, really has to be considered a genre of his own making) than with Piedmont, which really gained popularity during the "folk scare" of the late 50's and early 60's, particularly after the "rediscovery" of John Hurt and his Newport appearance in 1963.
Seems likely that a number of other enthnic genres are more popular world wide than Irish trad, although it might be hard to see that in the deep abyss of obsession we here call home. But where Irish trad shines is in how many people actually play the music themselves, not just on the boom box. Just a hunch tho.
Indian (from India) is another thing I know there are communities of musicians that play Ragas on Sitar. Ever gone to a CD store and looked in the World section for ITM but was dissapointed because they had mainly Latin and Sitar players? I know I have.
The closest thing I can think of is bluegrass which is played all over the world now by folks with no particular ethnic connection to Kentucky or thereabouts. Apparently it's big in Japan. It's similar to the ITM phenomenon because it's not only listened to but played at pickin' parties all over the globe. I wonder what the (not to say lowest) common denominator is here?
The boombox music of America may be different category, but it is appalling to here rap sung in English, French, Spanish, Hindi and Japanese.
We need an ethnocrapologist to determine if this counts. I have heard Disney cartoon even include rap.
Traditional Irish and Scottish music is certainly well represented in America. Colonial music, Gold Rush music, Civil War music, pioneer music on the frontier and seaman's music were either intact songs brought to America or music composed in the same format.
It does seem a bit odd at times that I can find an irish/Scottish session just about anywhere I go, thanks in no small part to this website. The explosion of international Plastic Paddy Pubs in the 1990s must have something to do with it but I could always find musicians to have a tune with before that, it was just harder to find them
I suppose flamenco and pipe band music are played pretty widely by non ethnic musicians without any obvious pop carrier of the virus.
I don't know if all those didgeridoo players and African drummers busking on the streets and moving in on music jams count as well.
The reason I'm discounting jazz and blues isn't because the form itself shouldn't be considered "ethnic," but rather because, as Bren so aptly puts it, there's a pop carrier of the virus. What I'm interested in is ethnic folk music that's played in a traditional state that exists outside of any pop-driven carrier. Can you go to just about any city in the world and find gatherings of people playing traditional flamenco, or gypsy (not jazz gypsy) or Latin (not jazz or rock Latin) like you can with ITM? I haven't researched it, but I think it might be easier to find Irish sessions over even old-time or bluegrass sessions anywhere in the world. There may be certain places like Japan that have a keen interest in bluegrass, (thank you Junji,) but there might be far more exotic locations where you’re more likely to find ITM.
Irish traditional music = 2.9 million hits
Scottish traditional music - 1.1 M
bluegrass music = 2.65M
flamenco = 1.14M
gypsy music = 1.1M
old-time music = 2.61M
cajun music = 1.49M
So Google ranks us the highest aith bluegrass and old-time coming in a close second and third. Both these forms, of course, owe some at least of their repertoire to the Irish and Scots traditions. Can we claim them too??
Can you find English sessions everywhere you go? I never hear about them. Do they have English folk music festivals all over too? Maybe I'm living a sheltered existence.
Hi Breadan - I'm surprised bluegrass has less hits than The Music...I'd have thought it more popular worldwide...but there's always the thought that maybe less of its adherents are as computer-savvy as we trad-music-intellectuals!
"Can you go to just about any city in the world and find gatherings of people . . ."
Ah, you're moving the goal posts by invoking the session as the measure of popularity. Flemenco, for instance, has no analog for this, but can still be heard played live just about anywhere in the world, with just as large and appreciative an audience.
Google hits, of course, are a meaure of little more than Google hits.
"The reason I'm discounting jazz and blues isn't because the form itself shouldn't be considered "ethnic," but rather because, as Bren so aptly puts it, there's a pop carrier of the virus."
As there are, as is often noted here with derision, pop carriers of Irish music. The Riverdance thingy, for instance. And I am stil not convinced of the relevance of Rock to someone playing Blind Lemon Jefferson in the apppropriate manner. Rock is actually one of the few styles that I don't play at all (shocking in this day and age, I know), but I do play Blind Lemon and John Hurt, and they did not come to me from a Rock carrier, and I have a hard time even imagining them doing so.
The only pop carrier I can see for these would be *ragtime.*
KFG--I play fingerstyle guitar and am a fan of Blind Lemmon, Blind Blake, John Hurt, Bill Broonzy, Pink Anderson and (dare I say) many other dead black guitarists from the American South who moved to Chicago or New York. Most people who sit around together to play the Blues, however, are not like you and me. They'll think they're playing an Eric Clapton song when they play "Key to the Highway" rather than one by Big Bill. Compare that to ITM: Drowsy Maggie and other "greatest hits" among ITM fans are not popular because of Riverdance, but because people play them at sessions. With greatest respect, KFG, I agree with Jack.
If you come to Chicago let me know, we'll play some blues. Oh, and and some Irish tunes too! mw
The google thing was just a bit of fun. I believe that there is little in the world to compare with the ubiquitous nature of PARTICIPATION in diddley dee. I doubt very much that there are groups of people in Sardinia or Japan who are out there playing Morris music or are singing the songs of the Watersons, June Tabor, etc.
In any event. It's popularity or otherwise is probably moot. The fact is that we can probably get a session in just about every country in the world. The Irish diaspora has got itself just about everywhere. And being the sentimental maudlin people we are, we have brought our music and song with us.
The Irish never really become part of the places they go to - aleays hankering after and Ireland that may or may not have ever existed.
But in the music there is a bit of Ireland forever preserved and we can always escape back to the oul sod with a reel or a jig or cry into our pints with a rendering of An Bunnán Buí or An Buachal Caol Dubh.
I'm in general agreement with Jack , tho I wouldn't discount jazz completely. 'Traditional (Dixieland)' jazz has very little commercial exposure but can be found internationally, played by non-traditional locally trained musicians.
The obvious (to me ommision from the previous comments is polka music. Here in Chicago there are 'maybe' half a dozen decent sessions but there are dozens of clubs to hear polka music performed. Most of the players are not eastern Europeans. Chicago has a large Polish community and the midwest in general has a large Scandanavian and German community, but I'm aware of polka clubs in New York and LA (having lived in both places). And yes, there are 'polka sessions'. They're more like open-mic nites, but they are very informal, most of the participants attending for the 'craic' as much as the tunes.
This is an unfair discussion because the Irish lay claim to every good polka, mazurka, reel, waltz,jig and hornpipe that exists! (lol) So if we break it down into etnic music styles it would be tough. I know people who specialize in Scottish tunes and English tunes, but they go to "Irish" sessions and play "Irish" tunes. That's the strength of the ITM "scene" it has embraced many ethnic music styles.
If you're going to insist on defining the word "popularity" by applying criteria that typically occur only in Irish Traditional Music, then yes, Jack, ITM is the most popular ITM in the world, hands down.
You are right by ethnomusicological standards, no argument. But what if Irish Traditional Music adopted conga drums and romantic dances to take on the Latino vote? (think of the next version of Riverdance). Or what if we all ganged up to give Irish Trad more Internet "hits" ? We could outcompete everyone.
I think it's the inclusive aspect of the session that makes ITM so popular.Of course your going to have lot's of 'ethnic' music as or more popular.But Jack's original point refers to the numbers of people who have taken it up as a hobby or whatever & not really to it's popularity in terms of appreciation.
Spot on, connla! That's exactly what I was referring to. Having said that, Tusong200's point about traditional Dixieland jazz is very true – Dixieland jazz bands from all over the planet come to places like Sacramento CA for their Dixieland Jubilee every year, and I wouldn't dismiss that fmusic from consideration. But I still wonder if its ubiquity is surpassed by the number of hobbyists worldwide that have embraced ITM.
Came to this a bit late and I have not read all the entries. Sorry. Now I hear lots of so called ITM which is Scottish, and visa versa. Indeed some tunes have gone over the sea and back between the two countries often. Tunes have acquired many titles and variations as a result. You think Foxhunters Jig is Irish? Not if you are singing it in Scottish Gaelic - yes its a very old tune, from the Hebrides I believe.
Didn't Lomax actually trace a significant number of oldtime tunes back into England, (some of which strangly now appear as ITM). It has also been claimed with some evidence that early bluegrass and jazz both stem directly from early English settlers and their music.
I keep hearing Neil Gow tunes (authentically Scottish) being "claimed" as traditional Irish tunes, even on CDs. Well Gow might have stolen them I suppose, but it seems a bit unlikely.
Are we not just looking as much marketing as history here? I don't suppose that there is anything quite like like "this", but I guess we might be guilty of over-simplifying what "this" is. The Scots and Irish have mixed and suffered along side each other - so no wonder that the music is not easily separated.
Sad to say, I guess that there are more pipe bands round the world than you could ever need. That's pretty ethnic.
Conclusion. The British Isles have exported more people for longer than most other places, their people have usually gained the upper hand culturally (not by means we should be proud of) and they depended on ordinary folk to populate these territories, people whose music has survived, thrived and evolved. So what? Almost forgot, its rather good.
The people I've been playing with have had a repertoire including Cape Breton, Northumbrian, Scottish, Welsh, English, Galician, Breton, Irish, Quebecois, Old-time... god knows. I can't even name it all. I'm not informed enough. Some of the "Irish" players seem to be frustrated that all the sessions have been invaded by Quebecois musicians (although, to be fair, this *is* Quebec). In Calgary, we played tunes from all these traditions without always knowing the origins. Seems unfair to just lay claim to everything that happens in a session and call it Irish. Here, anyway. I don't know how it is in San Fransisco.
When I was in Ireland, a host of the session I was at asked me to play some Canadian tunes and I had to decline because I thought I didn't know any. When I moved to Quebec I found out I knew a few, but I thought they were Irish.
And I still think tam tams are more ubiquitous than sessions. (Maybe because I used to live in Vancouver).
I also think ITM players are most likely to travel to places where ITM is going to be happening when they're on holiday, leaving themselves completely ignorant about what the rest of the world is up to (musically speaking) while at the same time giving themselves the impression ITM is played everywhere. Personally, I didn't see any in Cuba, Morocco, Guatemala, or Japan. I still want to go to India, Turkey, Greece, Russia, Nepal, and Bali. I doubt I'll find any there either. Are all those people irrelevant to this discussion or what?
It's just an acronym, Breandan. I’ve seen “traditional Irish music” on signs out in front of pubs all around Ireland, but no one was finding it necessary to make an acronym of it. You would probably choose to do it if you were on an Internet message board that discusses it – saves time. If you don't put the word "Irish" first, you end up with TIM, but it's probably more proper to say "Irish traditional music" anyway.
I like to think of it as "Irish Music" but I notice in the latest edition of the magazine of the same name we have the voting form for the readers poll. The music is split up into traditional, folk, and contemporary categories. I enjoy listening to most of the nominated artistes from all these categories and (to me) many of the names are interchangeable.
Can't be the first use Danny as everyone seems to know what he means and no one aks for explanation.
My favourite TLA is DFA.
We were adding some chemicals to the the drilling fluid on a rig once when I asked the drilling fluid bloke what it was.
He said "it's a DFA"
I said " What's that mean?"
He said "Does F@€k All"
i prefer 'trad' myself but then as we've been talking about jazz on this thread it could lead to some confusion.
I dont like using 'Irish music' as that could be any type of music form Ireland including the Corrs arrgghhh...
It just occured to me on the way to work that nearly everybody I know has a guitar, and everyone who has one can knock out some 12 bar blues. A good 90 per cent of them have no interest in this stuff, and are completely useless when it comes to accompanying tunes. And just about every house party I go to, there's a bunch of drunks in the corner freestyling insulting blues lyrics at one another. I think that makes "12 bar blues in the key of E" the most popular "ethnic" music in the world.
Bren - while I was waiting on some stuff at work earlier I had a few spare minutes, so I checked through the threads at the beginning of The Session (10 at a time, ie #1, #10, #20 and so on), and that was the first thread I saw it on. Unless they had used it outside of The Session before that. Anyway, it
I think outside of Ireland you have to be pretty specific. As much as it's the most popular ethnic music in the world, according to Jack, I still get blank looks when I say I play the fiddle. People have no idea what I'm talking about. Then I say "traditional" music, and they still don't have a clue. Then I say "Irish traditional music" and suddenly they understand. "Oh, you mean like Natalie MacMaster type stuff?" And I say "Umm...... yyyyeeeeaaaahhhh. That's right." And people always ask me what's in my fiddle case. "Is that a banjo?" "Is that a guitar?" etc. In Ireland if I walked into a pub with my fiddle case somebody would say "Oh, you play the fiddle, do ye? Give us a tune why don't ye." End of conversation.
Kerri writes: "As much as it's the most popular ethnic music in the world, according to Jack"
Kerri Kerri Kerri... there you go again inventing things I didn't say. I never claimed that it was the "most popular ethnic music in the world," I was just asking the question. The title of the thread suggests that their might be some other folk music that is just as "popular" even though my question is more about ubiquity and in finding people who have taken it up all around the world.
And yes, I'm grouchy because I didn't get any valentines. And yes, I need a hug. Boo hoo. :(
Tonight I can't make up my mind between going on a date with the old man or going to the session. I ALWAYS go to the session. I have no idea what it's like NOT to go to the session. I feel so... lost.
That's just a process of clarification. In the original thread I briefly defined the perimeters of my inquiry. People would either ignore them, or question them -- so clarification became necessary.
The "tam tam issue" is something I have no knowledge of – even though it might be relevant, perhaps it deserves the attention it requires with it's own thread.
The tam-tam issue is only relevant here in the "Is there anything else like this" thread. Because, yes, rhythm jams are like this. People all over the world get together to bash on drums, regardless of their own ethnicity, and some of them take it *very* seriously, while to some it's just a way to let off steam. Drum jams are open and participation is encouraged.
I don't know, though, maybe you want to disqualify drum jams because they aren't "music". Or because there are drums in pop, rock, and jazz. Or something.
About Google: (from the laboratories where we have too much time on our hands)
If you don't use quotation marks it will search for "African" and "music" separately within the same search. To find specific terms that involve more than one word you need to submit it between quotations to get a more accurate indication of Internet presence.
Example: +"African music" resulted in 572,000 hits as opposed to 15,000,000. This is a significant difference indeed. When I submitted this, +"Irish music" the result was 1,180,000 -- by far less dramatic of a difference. If you include the word "traditional" it drops to 84,500.
If you want to get a fair comparison between the different genres more specific than just being separate searches on each word, you'd have to submit them all equally.
Yes, but grego, doesn't "hit" mean something else in the reggae world? Like, "We partied with the band last night--that bass player must've taken 16.7 million hits off the bong before anyone else got a chance."
:-|
Kerri, darling... "American," "Canadian," and "Latin" are too broad of catagories to use and include within them many different genres I'm afraid. You guys aren't being good little researchers now.
Actually, "Irish music" doesn't mean diddly-aye any more than "Latin music" means salsa. And if my young, hip, ambivalent about ITM Irish friends heard you suggest otherwise, they'd slap you silly.
Congratulations, Dr. Brown. Make sure and drop by "Gregoland" (1) some day, when you have a chance.
(1. Land Of Musical Puppetery One Man Band Bowed Psaltery. There's a good picture of me here, http://www.gregoland.com/ after you click "Musical Puppetry")
Then will you kindly give us a way to fairly search Internet, Kerri. I've tried my best, and you still aren't satisfied with the search criteria or results. The first way the searches were conducted here only showed how many times the word "Irish" showed up (in any context,) and then looked for how many times the word "music" showed up. If my method for giving the search a relevance to what we're looking for isn't good enough, and you can't suggest anything better -- then we have no choice but to dismiss all search results from consideration.
" -- then we have no choice but to dismiss all search results from consideration."
Which is what Kevin suggested ages ago when he said:
"Google hits, of course, are a measure of little more than Google hits"
And I agree, but if you'd like to pursue the Google-hit methodology of popularity assessment, I suppose you'd have to choose whichever phrase best expresses *exactly* the category of music you're looking for in the terminology used within that genre.
The equivalent of "Irish traditional music" (the whole phrase) would therefore be "reggea" full stop. Because *nobody* says "reggea music". Ever. The "music" part is implied by the "reggea" part. Reggea can mean nothing *but* music, whereas all the words in "Irish traditional music" mean a hundred different things and do not express what we do seperately. They *must* be combined in order to have meaning, whereas "reggea" is totally self-sufficient.
Therefore "reggea" still knocks "Irish traditional music" out of the park, according to our Googological study.
Kerri, that is presisely the sort of errant pedantry up with which I will not put. Your research has contributed nothing to this argument, so I hearby strip you of your honerary PHD and leave you standing naked before the academy.
Play I some music, this a reggae music
Play I some music, this a reggae music
Roots Rock Reggae, this a reggae music
Roots Rock Reggae, this a reggae music
Nobody really, just Robert Nesta Marley.
Oscar Wilde interrupts this thread to add:
if something cannot be done to check, or at least to modify,
our monstrous worship of facts,
Art will become sterile, and beauty
will pass away from the land.
(My goodness, is that more than DOUBLE the amount of hits obtained using "Irish music"? * scroll, scroll * Why, yes, it is!)
Seriously though, Jack, I'm not just being picky. What do you think about blues and drum jams? I mean, I'm sure out of a sample group of a hundred random individuals you'd find twice as many who could play a blues riff than you would people who could play a tune.
I'm contributing plenty! Just not what you're looking for. That's hardly fair. I think I'm going to file an appeal. I don't mind standing naked before the academy though, just for old times' sake. (I got my PhD the same way I got into the sessions).
Even though my research has faced strong criticism, I have succeeded in demonstrating two things; 1) Irish music has the highest Google search result among other genres when attached to the word "music" (relevance and fairness accounted for) and, 2) there's nothing else like ITM. My work has been challenged, not with much merit, but challenged none-the-less, and they all failed to erode my findings. Maybe some were just having fun, but others had hung all their hopes and aspirations on their arguments, (others hung their clothes, but are now by admission -- happily nude) and none have risen to the occasion by providing any useful evidence to support their weak positions. We may now rest this topic with the full knowledge that there is indeed nothing else like this. Thank you [Crowd applause] thank you... thank you very much. [Announcer] Dr. Gilder will sign copies of his book, "Play That Funky Irish Music White Boy" in the lobby in a few minutes.
Joe, you haven't been paying attention. Your results mean nothing relevant unless you submit it with quotation marks. I already did the search this way above.
Actually "Polka Music" does return 'International Polka Association' because *polka music* does occur in the text, but my point is that some types of music don't require that the word 'music' be added onto it and that in some cases it is too restrictive.
Irish music (no quotes) returns everything Irish and everything music. Irish soda bread and calypso music. So you need the parameter of 'music'.
Jazz *is* music (or dance).
Polka *is* music (or dance).
Jack, you can't win an argument by just ignoring everything everybody else says.
Latin music - 3,260,000
American music - 3,030,000
Christian music - 2,520,000
Irish music - 1,180,000
All harvested from this very thread, in strict adherence to your "quotation" regulations.
And I would also argue that Irish trad is similar enough to Breton, Scottish, English, Canadian and Galician music that those not obsessed with it, as we are, could easily get them all mixed up. That means there are a lot of other types of trad that are VERY much like Irish trad. Thus dispensing with conclusion number two.
Tusong -- "Latin music" and "American music" are both too vague, and Christian music isn't relevant. Each of your others, with the exception of Canadian (too vague,) are all separate catagorys themselves. I guess this means you'll be going back to the 'ol drawing board then
"Jazz" may not be a relevant category, but it still gets more hits than not only "Pop", "Irish" and "Classical" put together, but also "Good", "Bad" and "Mediocre" put togother, which should, logically, cover the entirety of Music.
Right, Tusong -- my point exactly (see way above) There’s no way of doing an accurate search using a comparative search criteria. As so aptly pointed out by Kevin, "Google hits, of course, are a measure of little more than Google hits." Any more questions?
I got the impression from your earlier posts that you were accepting the relavence of the google searches under your parameters. You indicated that the searches done using your parameters would be a 'fair comparison'.
I was accepting the searches for what they were, but I was trying to make them fair. Kerri, "Latin" could be anything in Central and South America. Do you realize how large of an area that is? There are quite a few countries down there you know Ireland is just a tiny island... hello?
I realized my problem! "Irish music" was too narrow a category to compete with "Latin music" because so many different countries make up the big picture. So in a stroke of genius I refined my search so that all the different countries that play our kind of trad would be included:
Jack, uh, there's nothing wrong with making "Celtic" the equivalent of "Latin". It's completely logical. Besides, I already tried Brazilian and Cuban. :^P
I hate the tongue-out smiley. It should look more snippy, IMHO, and less "I just huffed a whole cannister of nitrous!"
this is really sad, i know, but it only took 10 seconds to check. first mention of "ITM" on the discussions on this site seems to be http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/66 in the starting comment, no less. the next was 77 but from a post a year later so doesn't count. so there!
Is there anything else like this?
Is there anything else like this?
Now I'm not talking about jazz, rock, or any other form of pop music, but is there any other ethnic music like ITM that has spread around the Globe and is taken up by so many people in the same way?
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Is "Country" ethnic yet? I hear line dancing is really big in Ireland. That might be the beginning of a global movement...
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I would want to add Scottish Traditional Music, but you are indeed right. My post is coming from California, USA. Maybe others that respond to this discussion can identify where they are. It would be fun to see how much of the world is involved in these discussions. Best Wishes.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Scottish music? In Japan you'll hear quite a lot of traffic lights playing the melody of a strathspey for blind people. And you know, Korean people used to sing their national anthem to the melody of "Auld Lang Syne."
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by slainte
Re: Is there anything else like this?
This is what you hear when you come to Japan: http://www.trafficsignal.jp/~fmdhappa/ongaku/03_1012VFi0005.mp3 Yeah, that's "Comin' Through the Rye."
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by slainte
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Good question. Let me start the line-drawing:
Delta or Piedmont Blues come to mind, but those arguably have "spread around the Globe" by riding the coat-tails of their popular offspring, e.g. rock. To me then the interesting aspect of this is that ITM is recorded and listened to, but it's not pop and has no obvious pop derivitives, yet it still is relatively "popular" and many amateurs enjoy playing it as a hobby (should I say obsession?). I'm curious if there's a similar phenomenon with Flamenco, Fado or Mariachi, about all of which I know nothing. Anyone know the number of a good ethnomusicologist?
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by markwilson
Re: Is there anything else like this?
How about Tango?
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by slainte
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Auld Lang Syne." doesn't count the same way "Danny Boy" or "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" because they are cliché. You can find other ethnic music forms that have spread around the Globe to a certain degree, but compared to ITM? I suspect to wide spread interest in ITM would dwarf other ethnic forms. (Excluding blues because, as mentioned above, is riding on the coattails of the pop music it spawned.)
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Tango, Samba and its offspring Bossa Nova, Afro-Cuban, Flamenco, to be honest I'd have to say that various Latin styles of traditional music far surpass Irish in world popularity.
There is also Calypso, Hawaiian and some other Polynesian styles that likely equal Irish in popularity, Indian music is coming up fast from behind, and don't forget good, ol' gypsy fiddle.
I'm also of a mind that discounting jazz is like saying, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. . ."
I'd also like some convincing that Delta and Piedmont blues rode the coat tails of Rock. I can see the point moreso with Delta (and even moreso with Robert Johnson, but he, even though he came from the Delta, really has to be considered a genre of his own making) than with Piedmont, which really gained popularity during the "folk scare" of the late 50's and early 60's, particularly after the "rediscovery" of John Hurt and his Newport appearance in 1963.
KFG
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by KFG
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Seems likely that a number of other enthnic genres are more popular world wide than Irish trad, although it might be hard to see that in the deep abyss of obsession we here call home. But where Irish trad shines is in how many people actually play the music themselves, not just on the boom box. Just a hunch tho.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Indian (from India) is another thing I know there are communities of musicians that play Ragas on Sitar. Ever gone to a CD store and looked in the World section for ITM but was dissapointed because they had mainly Latin and Sitar players? I know I have.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The closest thing I can think of is bluegrass which is played all over the world now by folks with no particular ethnic connection to Kentucky or thereabouts. Apparently it's big in Japan. It's similar to the ITM phenomenon because it's not only listened to but played at pickin' parties all over the globe. I wonder what the (not to say lowest) common denominator is here?
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by patrick cavanagh
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The boombox music of America may be different category, but it is appalling to here rap sung in English, French, Spanish, Hindi and Japanese.
We need an ethnocrapologist to determine if this counts. I have heard Disney cartoon even include rap.
Traditional Irish and Scottish music is certainly well represented in America. Colonial music, Gold Rush music, Civil War music, pioneer music on the frontier and seaman's music were either intact songs brought to America or music composed in the same format.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Is there anything else like this?
It does seem a bit odd at times that I can find an irish/Scottish session just about anywhere I go, thanks in no small part to this website. The explosion of international Plastic Paddy Pubs in the 1990s must have something to do with it but I could always find musicians to have a tune with before that, it was just harder to find them
I suppose flamenco and pipe band music are played pretty widely by non ethnic musicians without any obvious pop carrier of the virus.
I don't know if all those didgeridoo players and African drummers busking on the streets and moving in on music jams count as well.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Bren
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The reason I'm discounting jazz and blues isn't because the form itself shouldn't be considered "ethnic," but rather because, as Bren so aptly puts it, there's a pop carrier of the virus. What I'm interested in is ethnic folk music that's played in a traditional state that exists outside of any pop-driven carrier. Can you go to just about any city in the world and find gatherings of people playing traditional flamenco, or gypsy (not jazz gypsy) or Latin (not jazz or rock Latin) like you can with ITM? I haven't researched it, but I think it might be easier to find Irish sessions over even old-time or bluegrass sessions anywhere in the world. There may be certain places like Japan that have a keen interest in bluegrass, (thank you Junji,) but there might be far more exotic locations where you’re more likely to find ITM.
# Posted on February 12th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Google
Irish traditional music = 2.9 million hits
Scottish traditional music - 1.1 M
bluegrass music = 2.65M
flamenco = 1.14M
gypsy music = 1.1M
old-time music = 2.61M
cajun music = 1.49M
So Google ranks us the highest aith bluegrass and old-time coming in a close second and third. Both these forms, of course, owe some at least of their repertoire to the Irish and Scots traditions. Can we claim them too??
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by breandan
Re: Is there anything else like this?
BUT [and here is the KILLER]
English folk music gets a whopping 4.47 Million hits!!
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by breandan
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Can you find English sessions everywhere you go? I never hear about them. Do they have English folk music festivals all over too? Maybe I'm living a sheltered existence.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Besides that, are we talking about Global ubiquity, or just Internet presence?
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Hi Breadan - I'm surprised bluegrass has less hits than The Music...I'd have thought it more popular worldwide...but there's always the thought that maybe less of its adherents are as computer-savvy as we trad-music-intellectuals!
:~}
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Alf Tupper
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Can you go to just about any city in the world and find gatherings of people . . ."
Ah, you're moving the goal posts by invoking the session as the measure of popularity. Flemenco, for instance, has no analog for this, but can still be heard played live just about anywhere in the world, with just as large and appreciative an audience.
Google hits, of course, are a meaure of little more than Google hits.
"The reason I'm discounting jazz and blues isn't because the form itself shouldn't be considered "ethnic," but rather because, as Bren so aptly puts it, there's a pop carrier of the virus."
As there are, as is often noted here with derision, pop carriers of Irish music. The Riverdance thingy, for instance. And I am stil not convinced of the relevance of Rock to someone playing Blind Lemon Jefferson in the apppropriate manner. Rock is actually one of the few styles that I don't play at all (shocking in this day and age, I know), but I do play Blind Lemon and John Hurt, and they did not come to me from a Rock carrier, and I have a hard time even imagining them doing so.
The only pop carrier I can see for these would be *ragtime.*
KFG
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Breandan, that should be Scottish *Folk* music.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by slainte
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Samba 14.1 million hits.
KFG
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: Is there anything else like this?
KFG--I play fingerstyle guitar and am a fan of Blind Lemmon, Blind Blake, John Hurt, Bill Broonzy, Pink Anderson and (dare I say) many other dead black guitarists from the American South who moved to Chicago or New York. Most people who sit around together to play the Blues, however, are not like you and me. They'll think they're playing an Eric Clapton song when they play "Key to the Highway" rather than one by Big Bill. Compare that to ITM: Drowsy Maggie and other "greatest hits" among ITM fans are not popular because of Riverdance, but because people play them at sessions. With greatest respect, KFG, I agree with Jack.
If you come to Chicago let me know, we'll play some blues. Oh, and and some Irish tunes too! mw
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by markwilson
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The google thing was just a bit of fun. I believe that there is little in the world to compare with the ubiquitous nature of PARTICIPATION in diddley dee. I doubt very much that there are groups of people in Sardinia or Japan who are out there playing Morris music or are singing the songs of the Watersons, June Tabor, etc.
In any event. It's popularity or otherwise is probably moot. The fact is that we can probably get a session in just about every country in the world. The Irish diaspora has got itself just about everywhere. And being the sentimental maudlin people we are, we have brought our music and song with us.
The Irish never really become part of the places they go to - aleays hankering after and Ireland that may or may not have ever existed.
But in the music there is a bit of Ireland forever preserved and we can always escape back to the oul sod with a reel or a jig or cry into our pints with a rendering of An Bunnán Buí or An Buachal Caol Dubh.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by breandan
Re: Is there anything else like this?
It must count for something that people come here
repeatedly, to talk about Scottish and other music types. Have they no homes to go to?? &
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Backer
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I'm in general agreement with Jack , tho I wouldn't discount jazz completely. 'Traditional (Dixieland)' jazz has very little commercial exposure but can be found internationally, played by non-traditional locally trained musicians.
The obvious (to me
ommision from the previous comments is polka music. Here in Chicago there are 'maybe' half a dozen decent sessions but there are dozens of clubs to hear polka music performed. Most of the players are not eastern Europeans. Chicago has a large Polish community and the midwest in general has a large Scandanavian and German community, but I'm aware of polka clubs in New York and LA (having lived in both places). And yes, there are 'polka sessions'. They're more like open-mic nites, but they are very informal, most of the participants attending for the 'craic' as much as the tunes.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
This is an unfair discussion because the Irish lay claim to every good polka, mazurka, reel, waltz,jig and hornpipe that exists! (lol) So if we break it down into etnic music styles it would be tough. I know people who specialize in Scottish tunes and English tunes, but they go to "Irish" sessions and play "Irish" tunes. That's the strength of the ITM "scene" it has embraced many ethnic music styles.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Is there anything else like this?
If you're going to insist on defining the word "popularity" by applying criteria that typically occur only in Irish Traditional Music, then yes, Jack, ITM is the most popular ITM in the world, hands down.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
You are right by ethnomusicological standards, no argument. But what if Irish Traditional Music adopted conga drums and romantic dances to take on the Latino vote? (think of the next version of Riverdance). Or what if we all ganged up to give Irish Trad more Internet "hits" ? We could outcompete everyone.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I think it's the inclusive aspect of the session that makes ITM so popular.Of course your going to have lot's of 'ethnic' music as or more popular.But Jack's original point refers to the numbers of people who have taken it up as a hobby or whatever & not really to it's popularity in terms of appreciation.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by cunnla
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I was surprised when I found an active morris side in Silkeborg, in the middle of Jutland in Denmark
Anders
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by weefreefidler
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Spot on, connla! That's exactly what I was referring to. Having said that, Tusong200's point about traditional Dixieland jazz is very true – Dixieland jazz bands from all over the planet come to places like Sacramento CA for their Dixieland Jubilee every year, and I wouldn't dismiss that fmusic from consideration. But I still wonder if its ubiquity is surpassed by the number of hobbyists worldwide that have embraced ITM.
# Posted on February 13th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Came to this a bit late and I have not read all the entries. Sorry. Now I hear lots of so called ITM which is Scottish, and visa versa. Indeed some tunes have gone over the sea and back between the two countries often. Tunes have acquired many titles and variations as a result. You think Foxhunters Jig is Irish? Not if you are singing it in Scottish Gaelic - yes its a very old tune, from the Hebrides I believe.
Didn't Lomax actually trace a significant number of oldtime tunes back into England, (some of which strangly now appear as ITM). It has also been claimed with some evidence that early bluegrass and jazz both stem directly from early English settlers and their music.
I keep hearing Neil Gow tunes (authentically Scottish) being "claimed" as traditional Irish tunes, even on CDs. Well Gow might have stolen them I suppose, but it seems a bit unlikely.
Are we not just looking as much marketing as history here? I don't suppose that there is anything quite like like "this", but I guess we might be guilty of over-simplifying what "this" is. The Scots and Irish have mixed and suffered along side each other - so no wonder that the music is not easily separated.
Sad to say, I guess that there are more pipe bands round the world than you could ever need. That's pretty ethnic.
Conclusion. The British Isles have exported more people for longer than most other places, their people have usually gained the upper hand culturally (not by means we should be proud of) and they depended on ordinary folk to populate these territories, people whose music has survived, thrived and evolved. So what? Almost forgot, its rather good.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by bigfish
Re: Is there anything else like this?
ITM? is that virus still going? I thought the music died because of that....more likely The Music reasserted its authority.
ITM? What a sh!t acronym.
Just think how boring those 3 letters sound when you say them over and over again:
ITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITMITM
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Alf Tupper
Re: Is there anything else like this?
You're right Danny, after reading your post it seems to mean something else all together. ITM = Irritating Text Manipulation
hahahaha
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The people I've been playing with have had a repertoire including Cape Breton, Northumbrian, Scottish, Welsh, English, Galician, Breton, Irish, Quebecois, Old-time... god knows. I can't even name it all. I'm not informed enough. Some of the "Irish" players seem to be frustrated that all the sessions have been invaded by Quebecois musicians (although, to be fair, this *is* Quebec). In Calgary, we played tunes from all these traditions without always knowing the origins. Seems unfair to just lay claim to everything that happens in a session and call it Irish. Here, anyway. I don't know how it is in San Fransisco.
When I was in Ireland, a host of the session I was at asked me to play some Canadian tunes and I had to decline because I thought I didn't know any. When I moved to Quebec I found out I knew a few, but I thought they were Irish.
And I still think tam tams are more ubiquitous than sessions. (Maybe because I used to live in Vancouver).
I also think ITM players are most likely to travel to places where ITM is going to be happening when they're on holiday, leaving themselves completely ignorant about what the rest of the world is up to (musically speaking) while at the same time giving themselves the impression ITM is played everywhere. Personally, I didn't see any in Cuba, Morocco, Guatemala, or Japan. I still want to go to India, Turkey, Greece, Russia, Nepal, and Bali. I doubt I'll find any there either. Are all those people irrelevant to this discussion or what?
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Only the Nepalese, Balinese and Indians.
http://www.celtic.ru/
Mike's Irish Bar
6,Sinopis Str, Ambelokipi, Athens
The Irish Centre
Istiklal Cad. Huseyinaga Mah., Balo Sok. No.26, Istanbul
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by joesmith
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Just on this 'ITM' thing - I have NEVER heard anyone over here refer to it as that in any context.
Whe dreamed it up and where was it first used?
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by breandan
Re: Is there anything else like this?
It's just an acronym, Breandan. I’ve seen “traditional Irish music” on signs out in front of pubs all around Ireland, but no one was finding it necessary to make an acronym of it. You would probably choose to do it if you were on an Internet message board that discusses it – saves time. If you don't put the word "Irish" first, you end up with TIM, but it's probably more proper to say "Irish traditional music" anyway.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I like to think of it as "Irish Music" but I notice in the latest edition of the magazine of the same name we have the voting form for the readers poll. The music is split up into traditional, folk, and contemporary categories. I enjoy listening to most of the nominated artistes from all these categories and (to me) many of the names are interchangeable.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The first use of the dreaded 3 letters appears to be here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/111
No hate mail please - I'm sure he didn't think it would cause such a fuss in the future.
:~}
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Alf Tupper
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Can't be the first use Danny as everyone seems to know what he means and no one aks for explanation.
My favourite TLA is DFA.
We were adding some chemicals to the the drilling fluid on a rig once when I asked the drilling fluid bloke what it was.
He said "it's a DFA"
I said " What's that mean?"
He said "Does F@€k All"
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Bren
Re: Is there anything else like this?
i prefer 'trad' myself but then as we've been talking about jazz on this thread it could lead to some confusion.
I dont like using 'Irish music' as that could be any type of music form Ireland including the Corrs arrgghhh...
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by cunnla
Re: Is there anything else like this?
We used to answer helpdesk calls with the words "Hello, IT helpdesk RTFM".
Strangely no-one ever asked what RTFM stood for.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Is there anything else like this?
It just occured to me on the way to work that nearly everybody I know has a guitar, and everyone who has one can knock out some 12 bar blues. A good 90 per cent of them have no interest in this stuff, and are completely useless when it comes to accompanying tunes. And just about every house party I go to, there's a bunch of drunks in the corner freestyling insulting blues lyrics at one another. I think that makes "12 bar blues in the key of E" the most popular "ethnic" music in the world.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
If IT people could write in human language they would realise why nobody can RT worse than useless FMs.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Bren
Re: Is there anything else like this?
hehe point taken! :¬)
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Bren - while I was waiting on some stuff at work earlier I had a few spare minutes, so I checked through the threads at the beginning of The Session (10 at a time, ie #1, #10, #20 and so on), and that was the first thread I saw it on. Unless they had used it outside of The Session before that. Anyway, it
Irritates the T!ts off Me.
(joke)
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Alf Tupper
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I think outside of Ireland you have to be pretty specific. As much as it's the most popular ethnic music in the world, according to Jack, I still get blank looks when I say I play the fiddle. People have no idea what I'm talking about. Then I say "traditional" music, and they still don't have a clue. Then I say "Irish traditional music" and suddenly they understand. "Oh, you mean like Natalie MacMaster type stuff?" And I say "Umm...... yyyyeeeeaaaahhhh. That's right." And people always ask me what's in my fiddle case. "Is that a banjo?" "Is that a guitar?" etc. In Ireland if I walked into a pub with my fiddle case somebody would say "Oh, you play the fiddle, do ye? Give us a tune why don't ye." End of conversation.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I thought it was only us mandolin players who were accused of playing the banjo.
Another common one "Is that a fiddle or a violin?"
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Is there anything else like this?
That's when I say "It's a banjo, actually."
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Kerri writes: "As much as it's the most popular ethnic music in the world, according to Jack"
Kerri Kerri Kerri... there you go again inventing things I didn't say. I never claimed that it was the "most popular ethnic music in the world," I was just asking the question. The title of the thread suggests that their might be some other folk music that is just as "popular" even though my question is more about ubiquity and in finding people who have taken it up all around the world.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
*crank, crank, crank*
*evil grin*
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"And people always ask me what's in my fiddle case."Is that a guitar?" "
A guitar in a fiddle case? Presumably a smashed-up one.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by cunnla
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Feeling cranky today, Kerri? Did somebody not get a Valentine today? Does someone need a hug?
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Jack, I'm picking at you because people keep coming up with other types of music that have spread around the globe and you keep saying things like:
"Auld Lang Syne." doesn't count the same way "Danny Boy" or "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" because they are cliché..."
"Excluding blues because, as mentioned above, is riding on the coattails of the pop music it spawned..."
"The reason I'm discounting jazz and blues..."
"...not jazz gypsy" "...not jazz or rock Latin"
"...outside a pop carrier..."
By discounting everything else, you're kind of making it a fixed game, IMHO. And you still haven't addressed the tam tam issue.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
And yes, I'm grouchy because I didn't get any valentines. And yes, I need a hug. Boo hoo. :(
Tonight I can't make up my mind between going on a date with the old man or going to the session. I ALWAYS go to the session. I have no idea what it's like NOT to go to the session. I feel so... lost.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
That's just a process of clarification. In the original thread I briefly defined the perimeters of my inquiry. People would either ignore them, or question them -- so clarification became necessary.
The "tam tam issue" is something I have no knowledge of – even though it might be relevant, perhaps it deserves the attention it requires with it's own thread.
Here's your crank.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
The tam-tam issue is only relevant here in the "Is there anything else like this" thread. Because, yes, rhythm jams are like this. People all over the world get together to bash on drums, regardless of their own ethnicity, and some of them take it *very* seriously, while to some it's just a way to let off steam. Drum jams are open and participation is encouraged.
I don't know, though, maybe you want to disqualify drum jams because they aren't "music". Or because there are drums in pop, rock, and jazz. Or something.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
African music: 15,000,000 Google hits.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
" thought it was only us mandolin players who were accused of playing the banjo."
Can you play Duelling Banjos on that ukelele? is my favourite so far.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Bren
Re: Is there anything else like this?
About Google: (from the laboratories where we have too much time on our hands)
If you don't use quotation marks it will search for "African" and "music" separately within the same search. To find specific terms that involve more than one word you need to submit it between quotations to get a more accurate indication of Internet presence.
Example: +"African music" resulted in 572,000 hits as opposed to 15,000,000. This is a significant difference indeed. When I submitted this, +"Irish music" the result was 1,180,000 -- by far less dramatic of a difference. If you include the word "traditional" it drops to 84,500.
If you want to get a fair comparison between the different genres more specific than just being separate searches on each word, you'd have to submit them all equally.
Irish music - 1,180,000
African music - 572,000
Bluegrass music - 404,000
Scottish music - 287,000
Old-time music - 164,000
Gypsy music - 149,000
Cajun music - 131,000
Flamenco music - 46,300
Well well well... look who came out on top.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Oh, I left out Kerri's favorite... oops... sorry Kerri.
Tam tam music - 244
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
American music - 3,030,000
Latin music - 3,260,000
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
And I guess Canadian music, with 703, 000 hits, is catching up!
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I could go on like this all day.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Reggae: 16,700,000 hits.
Ha!
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by grego
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Way to go Greg!
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Yes, but grego, doesn't "hit" mean something else in the reggae world? Like, "We partied with the band last night--that bass player must've taken 16.7 million hits off the bong before anyone else got a chance."
:-|
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Is there anything else like this?
rotfl, mon!
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by grego
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Reggae music - 522,000
uh... ha ha ha (we need to be fair you see)
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Kerri, darling... "American," "Canadian," and "Latin" are too broad of catagories to use and include within them many different genres I'm afraid. You guys aren't being good little researchers now.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Actually, "Irish music" doesn't mean diddly-aye any more than "Latin music" means salsa. And if my young, hip, ambivalent about ITM Irish friends heard you suggest otherwise, they'd slap you silly.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Jack Gilder" 1,240
"Kerri Brown" 1,460
"Will Harmon" 4,630
"grego" 789,000
So there!
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by grego
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Wow, I'm a brain surgeon! I think you'd better start call me "Dr. Brown" in recognition of my achievements. Thank you.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Congratulations, Dr. Brown. Make sure and drop by "Gregoland" (1) some day, when you have a chance.
(1. Land Of Musical Puppetery One Man Band Bowed Psaltery. There's a good picture of me here, http://www.gregoland.com/ after you click "Musical Puppetry")
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by grego
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Cheesy (or cheesey) music" - 23,700
"Stupid music" - 11,100
"I hate music" - 20,600
"Early music" - 1,050,000
"Late music" - 9,580
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Dr. Brown, I love your black cherry soda.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Then will you kindly give us a way to fairly search Internet, Kerri. I've tried my best, and you still aren't satisfied with the search criteria or results. The first way the searches were conducted here only showed how many times the word "Irish" showed up (in any context,) and then looked for how many times the word "music" showed up. If my method for giving the search a relevance to what we're looking for isn't good enough, and you can't suggest anything better -- then we have no choice but to dismiss all search results from consideration.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
" -- then we have no choice but to dismiss all search results from consideration."
Which is what Kevin suggested ages ago when he said:
"Google hits, of course, are a measure of little more than Google hits"
And I agree, but if you'd like to pursue the Google-hit methodology of popularity assessment, I suppose you'd have to choose whichever phrase best expresses *exactly* the category of music you're looking for in the terminology used within that genre.
The equivalent of "Irish traditional music" (the whole phrase) would therefore be "reggea" full stop. Because *nobody* says "reggea music". Ever. The "music" part is implied by the "reggea" part. Reggea can mean nothing *but* music, whereas all the words in "Irish traditional music" mean a hundred different things and do not express what we do seperately. They *must* be combined in order to have meaning, whereas "reggea" is totally self-sufficient.
Therefore "reggea" still knocks "Irish traditional music" out of the park, according to our Googological study.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Kerri, that is presisely the sort of errant pedantry up with which I will not put. Your research has contributed nothing to this argument, so I hearby strip you of your honerary PHD and leave you standing naked before the academy.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Play I some music, this a reggae music
Play I some music, this a reggae music
Roots Rock Reggae, this a reggae music
Roots Rock Reggae, this a reggae music
Nobody really, just Robert Nesta Marley.
Oscar Wilde interrupts this thread to add:
if something cannot be done to check, or at least to modify,
our monstrous worship of facts,
Art will become sterile, and beauty
will pass away from the land.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Bren
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Christian music" - 2, 520, 000 hits.
(My goodness, is that more than DOUBLE the amount of hits obtained using "Irish music"? * scroll, scroll * Why, yes, it is!)
Seriously though, Jack, I'm not just being picky. What do you think about blues and drum jams? I mean, I'm sure out of a sample group of a hundred random individuals you'd find twice as many who could play a blues riff than you would people who could play a tune.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
So bren, would that be four hits, or just one?
I'm contributing plenty! Just not what you're looking for. That's hardly fair. I think I'm going to file an appeal. I don't mind standing naked before the academy though, just for old times' sake.
(I got my PhD the same way I got into the sessions).
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Irish music =9,950,000
Scottish music =5,610,000
Jewish music =8,380,000 (had to know that one!)
Indian music =13,300,000
African music =15,000,000
Folk music =14,500,000
Classical music =25,000,000
Pop music =24,700,000
Rock music =28,600,000
And finally:
Good music =35,500,000
Bad music =22,800,000
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Joe CSS
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Polka music" 58,000
"polka" 2,500,000
"Polka music" doesn't return 'Steve's Polka Page' or 'International Polka Association'. Doesn't seem to be a very workable criteria.
"Dixieland jazz" 99,300
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Oh, and:
Mediocre music =803,000
*Jazz = 61,100,000*
Oh yeah!
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Joe CSS
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Even though my research has faced strong criticism, I have succeeded in demonstrating two things; 1) Irish music has the highest Google search result among other genres when attached to the word "music" (relevance and fairness accounted for) and, 2) there's nothing else like ITM. My work has been challenged, not with much merit, but challenged none-the-less, and they all failed to erode my findings. Maybe some were just having fun, but others had hung all their hopes and aspirations on their arguments, (others hung their clothes, but are now by admission -- happily nude) and none have risen to the occasion by providing any useful evidence to support their weak positions. We may now rest this topic with the full knowledge that there is indeed nothing else like this. Thank you [Crowd applause] thank you... thank you very much. [Announcer] Dr. Gilder will sign copies of his book, "Play That Funky Irish Music White Boy" in the lobby in a few minutes.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Joe, you haven't been paying attention. Your results mean nothing relevant unless you submit it with quotation marks. I already did the search this way above.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"hip hop ITM fusion"
1 hit.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by grego
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Actually "Polka Music" does return 'International Polka Association' because *polka music* does occur in the text, but my point is that some types of music don't require that the word 'music' be added onto it and that in some cases it is too restrictive.
Irish music (no quotes) returns everything Irish and everything music. Irish soda bread and calypso music. So you need the parameter of 'music'.
Jazz *is* music (or dance).
Polka *is* music (or dance).
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Cross posted with you Jack.
AOL (applauding out loud)
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"jazz" isn't a relevant catagory, niether is "polka".
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Good Grief, kerri? That much returned for that idiotic crap billed christian "music" ?
Wit that, I'm almost ashamed to be a Christian.... O_o
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I'll accept your original disqualification of jazz, but why on earth not polka??? A bit ethnocentric, don't you think?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Yea, grego should get the "Gry Appreciation and Admiration Award". hahaha
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"polka" relates to too many different genres.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Jack, you can't win an argument by just ignoring everything everybody else says.
Latin music - 3,260,000
American music - 3,030,000
Christian music - 2,520,000
Irish music - 1,180,000
All harvested from this very thread, in strict adherence to your "quotation" regulations.
And I would also argue that Irish trad is similar enough to Breton, Scottish, English, Canadian and Galician music that those not obsessed with it, as we are, could easily get them all mixed up. That means there are a lot of other types of trad that are VERY much like Irish trad. Thus dispensing with conclusion number two.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Where'd Kerri go, is she still nekkid?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Oh, there she is.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Tusong -- "Latin music" and "American music" are both too vague, and Christian music isn't relevant. Each of your others, with the exception of Canadian (too vague,) are all separate catagorys themselves. I guess this means you'll be going back to the 'ol drawing board then
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Sorry, that last one was meant for Kerri, not Tusong... oops.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
"Jazz" may not be a relevant category, but it still gets more hits than not only "Pop", "Irish" and "Classical" put together, but also "Good", "Bad" and "Mediocre" put togother, which should, logically, cover the entirety of Music.
QED.
Joe
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Joe CSS
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Too many different genres???
And 'Irish music' means what??
McNamara's band? Joe Cooley? U2? The Three Tenors?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I happen to be a huge fan of jazz, so I'm neither surprised nor disappointed.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Right, Tusong -- my point exactly (see way above) There’s no way of doing an accurate search using a comparative search criteria. As so aptly pointed out by Kevin, "Google hits, of course, are a measure of little more than Google hits." Any more questions?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Has anybody else noticed that this topic has jumped back and forth between the first on second page??
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I'll have one of whatever you're drinking Tusong... or smoking.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Agreeing with tusong in not seeing how "Latin music" is more broad than "Irish music".
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I got the impression from your earlier posts that you were accepting the relavence of the google searches under your parameters. You indicated that the searches done using your parameters would be a 'fair comparison'.
I've clearly misunderstood you. Again.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I was accepting the searches for what they were, but I was trying to make them fair. Kerri, "Latin" could be anything in Central and South America. Do you realize how large of an area that is? There are quite a few countries down there you know Ireland is just a tiny island... hello?
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I realized my problem! "Irish music" was too narrow a category to compete with "Latin music" because so many different countries make up the big picture. So in a stroke of genius I refined my search so that all the different countries that play our kind of trad would be included:
Latin music: 3, 260, 000
Celtic music: 824, 000
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Wow. Psychic cross post.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I agree that the google searches under any useful parameters don't shed much light on the question.
To answer your initial interesting question as if the whole google thing had never occurred.
Yes. There are some other things like this.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
lol, tusong. Somehow I just don't think Jack's going to agree with you there.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Adding a smiley to my last post
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Kerri... uh, try Cuban music, Venezuelan music, Puruvian music, etc.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
How many hits did you get off of 'Puruvian'??
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Puruvian - 944, Peruvian - 2,950,000, Peruvian music - 10,800
Wise guy
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
I got one hit for "puruvian music", somebody writing about his 'drawigs'.
Going home for dinner, Bye, Jack.
Good-nite, Kerri.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Tusong200
Re: Is there anything else like this?
That's funny, many of my drawigs have poems behind them too.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Nighty night.
Jack, uh, there's nothing wrong with making "Celtic" the equivalent of "Latin". It's completely logical. Besides, I already tried Brazilian and Cuban. :^P
I hate the tongue-out smiley. It should look more snippy, IMHO, and less "I just huffed a whole cannister of nitrous!"
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Is there anything else like this?
But I'm not referring to Celtic music, Kerri... I'm talking Irish music here... you know -- ITM.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Is there anything else like this?
Yaaaaaaaaaawn. Hey Jack, let's see what else is going on around here.
# Posted on February 15th 2005 by Kerri Brown
ITM first mention
this is really sad, i know, but it only took 10 seconds to check. first mention of "ITM" on the discussions on this site seems to be http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/66 in the starting comment, no less. the next was 77 but from a post a year later so doesn't count. so there!
PS i don't like the term either.
# Posted on February 16th 2005 by rog