I seen a few references to 'slow sessions' here in Discussions - mostly in the US. I am wondering if there is any such thing in London. I have a mandolin pupil (!!!) who is somewhat phased by the speed at which the notes fly by in most sessions - I, like many others, no doubt, can sympathise with him. I should imagine such a thing is hard to find - the only slow things I know of in London are the traffic and the public transport. The slowest session I know of is Mick O'Connor's session st the Cardinal Wolsey Hotel, Hampton Court, but it's inaccessible to a non-driver who doesn't live within walking distance and can't afford a cab.
I thought I remembered seeing a notice of one at the Hammersmith Centre, but I never went, so I don't know for sure; still, surely there's got to be a slow session SOMEwhere in London -- Barney? You around?
Since I was once a trad tiro myself, I can remember hovering around the edge of a session trying to keep up. Tell him to just grit his teeth, go to a real session and get stuck in as best he can! I was invited to a few sessions in the US which turned out to be "slow sessions". What a concept! I could never understand why upwards of 10 people wanted to get together in a public place and play at what I would regard as practice/ learning the tune speed. And slow really meant S ---- L ---- O ---- W. They weren't kidding! Not slow, but bouncy, just slow!!! Fun maybe, but not as I know it.Having run into some of the slow session players a few years later, I found them still playing at the same funereal pace.
I agree with longnote in a way...obviously dont send him to the breakneck sessions in camden etc. But do send him to a session that has a nice pace......he will learn how to play faster and it will be lot easier for him if he has to. Although I have to say - the only sessions I ever went to in london were breakneck speeds.....so cant really help with the nice paced sessions. Everyone in the whole music scene has to go through that very thing & while it is frustrating not being able to keep up...it does come eventually & I personally can hardly rememeber when I couldnt keep up)
I agree with Zina, David. Perhaps you should try contacting The Hammersmith & Fulham Irish Centre in Hammersmith (don't ask me why I should think this when I'm upside down down under - but still, I think they might run some adult ITM classes there. Might be some others looking for an 'in' into the session scene attending them).
I recon there is fast and too fast when it comes to sessions. Fast is OK, in fact its lovely, but too fast is just that - too fast. Of course the session needs to fly, and it should, but if it aint got that swing it aint got that zing the way I see it. Why spoil basically beautiful melodies by revving them up to the point where they sound like every other reel or every other jig etc.
When I listen to the greats, they don't seem to feel the need to go beyond the pail (breakneck), certainly not on recordings at least, so why are some sessions notorious for doing it? Is it to exclude the 'lesser' from participating? Or is it a show of (weak) muscle? Competition amongst the egoes? A quest for domination?
Surely the greatest high comes from the group high. Isn't that what ITM is supposed to be all about? - and that means everybody in a session soaring high with the music together. That also means an obligation for those that can, to take the time to scaffold those who are not quite yet able, but would be if they could get the 'in' - (that is more than the obligitory 2 X or 3 X through a tune before moving on to the next one etc).
I think this is a real (not imaginary) problem for intermediate players - they're the ones that need the fast session playing experience, and they're the ones who can never get it, because the fast sessions tend to be dominated by experienced players who come and go as they please, are not prepared to even acknowledge the 'want-a-bees in', and get all the playing they could possibly want (even possibly more opportunities than they can possibly handle).
I hope David's mandolin pupil!! finds a session opportunity that's right for him.
Cheers
I do see what you mean jill, but I think alot of it depends on where you are. I know plenty of muso's who play at quite a nice speed but are arrogant and dont like new people...I also went to a session in Donegal a couple of months ago & was absolutley shocked at how fast they were playing. It wasnt deliberate, its the way they play & they were friendly people. The only thing I wanted to point out is that evetually new people are going to either have to learn how to play faster or they are going to have to stay playing in a really slow session forever & I'd say the sooner you get up to speed, the better. Plus if you find a session with nice supportive people - it doesnt matter if they play fast...more likely than not they will ask the new comer to start a tune and follow at their pace.
*sigh* LongNote and bb, upwards of ten people get together regularly at the slow session that Dirk and I run every Sunday in Longmont, Colorado. Our goal is to teach them to learn tunes by ear, to introduce newcomers to session etiquette gently without risking their necks by possibly infuriating experienced players past ever being able to go to their sessions ever again, and, in fact, to get them ready to go to faster sessions.
We go the speed that the group overall can go and maintain good feel and a nice sound. Sometimes, that's a snail's pace in the case of some of the beginners even if there are intermediates there who can play faster, and sometimes, when it's just Dirk and me and some of the intermediate players, we can go faster; sometimes even up to regular session speed. We regularly encourage our players to start going to the faster sessions as soon as they feel ready. We also, though, encourage them to stay beginners as long as they need to, without feeling that they have to meet up to some standard that demands a certain pace before they're ready to play at that pace well. Speed is nice, but being able to play up to speed with the good feel is much, much better.
This session was originally begun by Matt and Shannon Heaton, who modeled it after a Chicago session led by Jimmy Keane and Sean Cleland, who felt there was a need for a session that wasn't too fast, too exclusive, or too esoteric. They play session standards only at a moderate pace, up to six or eight tunes a set up to seven or ten times each, working on the feel and on making the entire group sound great. Once we have a pool of people who know the same tunes, we hope to return to this format.
At any rate, we do have fun, we do insist that you play only the speed you can go and still play well (which is generally, I find, slower than most players usually think it is at the beginning and intermediate levels), which is how we were taught ourselves, and we do encourage people to grow out of our session. I don't think there's anything wrong with slow sessions, obviously, or I wouldn't run one. Perhaps you've just been to the wrong ones to help you to believe that slow sessions might be a positive thing.
No...I dont think that slow sessions are bad, all I was saying is that sitting in with faster sessions (not mental speed or anything) is a big help...I found that after awhile, I could keep up with my local session - it didnt take that long & personally I am of the type who like nice cruisy sessions, but when someone plays a bit fast its still nice to be able to keep up. I dont know of *any* slow session where I am - but I do know an awful lot of good musicians....all I was thinking is if there is no slow sessions in london - then dont stress, alot of people have managed without one. I wasnt getting down on the slow sessions - merely pointing out that you dont have to have them....
I agree that slow sessions are great for learning, no fun to listen to though. I think they are more suited to church basements or school auditoriums than bars, less pressure for fledging musicians & less distractions (people, alcohol etc).
David, why don't you send your student to those great Camdentown sessions with a tape recorder? Than have your student sit at home with the tape & his/her mando, that way he/she gets the benifit of the music tempos etc., without running any risks. I think your student would benifit from good music played well.
We do a slow Scottish session in London at the Cecil Sharp House near Regent's Park every other Monday evening from 7:30 to 9:30. The next one should be on June 10th. We are a small group (anything from 3 to 10 usually) with an expanding repertoire of traditional and new Scottish tunes. Not designed for complete beginners or speed demons, but very friendly and accommodating to all. We try to learn one new tune each session and play through anything the majority know in common. All regulars have a chance to teach something if they want to and we've learned lots of wonderful tunes over the past year or so. The fact that it's not a public place means there's not an intimidating audience expecting to be entertained and we can concentrate on learning and improving. Most of us also do a weekly class with Pete Cooper every Wednesday evening at the same venue, again from 7:30 to 9:30. He teaches a new tune every week, pretty evenly divided between Irish, Scottish and English. Again, while not for complete beginners on the fiddle, he goes slowly enough for most, teaches by ear and gives music out at the end of each class. We gradually work everything up to speed so that by the end of term we're usually up to a performance tempo. Usually there is a free-for-all session in the bar afterwards with a wild mix of Scandinavian, French, American, British Isles and Eastern European tunes, depending on who is around that night. It's a wonderful group and he's a great teacher. If you're ever in London come by for a visit. There is no charge for the Scottish session, but Pete's class is done in 12-week terms and there is a fee (although possibly not for the one-off visitor). Both classes will be taking a summer break from around July 14th until sometime in September and will then start up again ona regular basis. Come join us! Holly
Thanks, everybody. I agree entirely, he should just sit in on 'full speed' sessions, and just try and keep up. But how do I convince him of that? What seems moderately paced to some of us could appear breakneck to less experienced players. It's not just a matter of being able to physically play the notes fast enough, it's being able to keep track of them, mentally separating one from the next.
Holly, the Cecil Sharp House session sounds like a good bet.
Well, I am not sure if I can be convinced that there are "good" *groan* slow sessions and "bad" *groan* slow sessions. Admittedly, my experiences were in California where criticism is "negativity" and individualism can be expressed by some group activity. And Ireland is a place where you learn the hard way. Learning / practising was something you did alone at home. Until you got it right. And the session was the place where you found out if you had it right or not. And you always had to play a solo. I don't think there's any speed i can't handle now, though I really dislike absurdly fast sessions. Frankie Gavin once told me that he always like to "lash into a tune" as you can always slow down. But it is clearly harder to speed up. And if the slow session is a regular, weekly event, then isn't it in danger of becoming a refuge from the big, bad "real" session? So that people never have to go there and never learn to play at speed and never play with the best musicians. And that seems to be true of the slowies I know. A kind of reverse elitism? I can understand it as a private gathering at someone's home or the parish hall or as an after-lesson jam, as has been suggested, but not in a pub or as a special part of a regular session. There may be something to be said for a slow session, but just as much and maybe more for jumping in at the deep end and sticking with it. We all know that hearing good music played well is a vital part of learning. I suppose, we just have to learn whatever way we can, slow or, preferably, not slow.
Clearly harder to speed up? Maybe harder to speed up and still play well, but I've been to an awful lot of sessions where the tunes just got faster and faster and faster and faster...no trouble at all It's one of the things I hate most about sessions, when they can't hold a tune to the speed they started at.
The reason we have our slow sessions at 12:30 in the afternoon in a coffeehouse on a Sunday instead of an evening at a bar is because it doesn't conflict with any of the other sessions in town, y'see, plus there's not as much pressure on people to "perform" in a coffeehouse. But we're no refuge. In fact, most of our regulars sweat out being forced to learn the tunes by ear -- they call me the big bad Aural Nazi, as a matter of fact, because I don't allow sheet music during the session. Many of the regulars in fact go to other sessions during the week. We talk up the other sessions and encourage attendance at them.
Besides which, at least in the US, we have lots of people who stay home to practise but unfortunately don't know what it is they're trying to practise doing right.
I generally find that the players who don't go to the other sessions are usually not going because they don't have the ability yet (which is why they're attending our session in the first place, to get it), or have no self-confidence, and/or were treated badly by someone at a regular session who doesn't believe that regular sessions shouldn't cater to beginners.
But hey, if you want to discourage people from going to slow sessions because you scorn them, fair play to you. I was born in California myself and my family lives there, so perhaps I tend to believe that everyone should get a fair shake simply because I have a morphic resonance with the place or something. So now that you've denigrated slow sessions and California, both things that I'm intimately connected with, would you like to try for a third, LongNote? *grin*
Just found a list of London sessions on another mailing-list and one is mentioned as friendly and relaxed, so maybe what your pupil is looking for...It is : The Porterhouse. Maiden Lane, near Covent Garden (runs parallel to The Strand). Tel:020 7379 7917 Starts every Sunday 4:30pm. Sometimes one needs to gain more self assurance before he starts playing the real fast sessions)) I can play some tunes quite fast until I try to play them along with other people in the same speed....*sigh*
Dagmar
David, if your student calls the Cecil Sharp House they will be able to give him details on Pete's class, or he could just drop by some Wednesday night and see if he likes it (and us). The closest tube station is Camden Town and it's an easy walk from there. There's sometimes up to 40-something people there, of all levels and backgrounds and I'm sure a budding mandolin player would be most welcome among all the fiddles. While it's definitely a class and not the same as a 'real' session, it does prepare you for sessions, and we generally do an end-of-term performance in front of an audience. It also offers the opportunity to try some solo work in front of a supportive group, and some of us have even begun writing our own tunes, so it is a good training ground for whatever you want to do with the music. And of course, Pete is great.
With regard to slow sessions in general, my feeling is that yes, you do eventually become able to play up to speed but sometimes that can take years and if the only choices for playing are alone in your living room or dumped into the deep end of a typical session where you can't keep up even on the tunes you know well, it is easy to get discouraged and feel like you'll NEVER be able to do it. Slow sessions are a good stepping stone between the security of your living room and the intimidation of sessions. The playing field is level, you learn important aspects of the music and musicianship that you can't experience practicing on your own - like listening to other people, keeping a steady tempo, keeping up with and being part of a group, etc. and so serves an invaluable purpose. Our slow Scottish group also does occasional workshops and brings in a 'guest' instructor from Scotland (we will likely have Ian Fraser do a class in June) and opens the session up to anybody who wants to pay a minimal fee to cover the tutor. So we also get a chance to learn from and play with some really great musicians. We also get some fiddlers who are up to session level in other styles of music (like Irish), but want to experiment with and learn from the Scottish tradion in a non-stressful setting. I sort of look on it as something entirely different from sessions, which serves its own valuable purpose and helps encourage and train a wide range of musicians. Holly
Still missing my point - but thats ok - I think slow sessions are fine, just that you should find a session with nice people in it wether they play fast or slow, make friends etc.....its true, most people I know learnt at home then went to sessions when they had a few tunes, there are no slow/beginer sessions where I grew up...it did me no harm, nor anyone else I know. But good luck finding a session for your student!
Zina, do not underestimate how well I know California. At least LA / southern California, which ,admittedly, is not California in the same way Dublin is not Ireland. I certainly do not detect "scorn" in my remarks, but rather bemusement and a good dose of northern Irish scepticism. But, I am always open to being proved wrong. I will have to drop into the Colorado slowie one of these days for that express purpose. I thoroughly approve of no written music. I was stunned to attend a gathering where some people whipped out tune books and set them on on music stands!! Third thing which annoys me in California -- turning right on a red light, which resulted in two near-misses and my finally being hit by a huge SUV in LA on a cross walk and knocked across the road. Despite the exhortations of the assembled gawkers / passers-by, I chose not to sue after having a few words with the terrified female driver. I wasn't that badly injured that I required hospitalization.
David, I could be repeating something someone has already said here, but what are the chances of you starting something where you are at?
I've made an attempt at that here in the Oklahoma City area where there are no sessions, slow or fast. We have started meeting in peoples houses. The majority of the folks showing up are advanced musicians and well up to speed, but there are some beginers coming who we have taken in. We mix it up with fast an slow. At times, splitting up into different rooms placing a willing advanced player or two with a beginner. It has been working out well and giving the beginner hope.
Again, sorry if this is a repeat someone else has already suggested.
I think what Zina and Dirk are doing is absolutely wonderful, and if I could, I would certainly be there on Sunday arvos. They are sharing their experiences of ITM and are being true to the spirit of the music, inclusive. And by the sounds of it, are having fun and making friends (with a diversity of talents) in the process.
Of course if you have been lucky enough to grow up hearing and understanding the music from an early age then picking up an instrument and letting it rip is probably as easy as talking - and who can remember learning to talk???? But let's face it guys, even the experienced players teach each other new tunes at a slower pace than they play them in the fast session (usually privately outside of the session where the newcomer is not invited). Yet newcomers are expected to pick up those same tunes at session speed from the session. Its stacked against them unless they get some 'in' (ie. access to tune learning sessions such as SCTLS, someone prepared to share session tunes with them by ear, allowing sessions to be taped, etc.).
But I also think you are right bb, if sessioners are friendly and willing to take on their fair share of sharing and caring, it doesn't matter that the session is fast (but not too fast) because newcomers would have a goal to work toward and wouldn't feel they had been squashed flat by a randomly charging run away steam-roller.
Good God, LongNote, thank goodness you weren't hurt worse! My aunt is still recovering from being hit by a cab near her home in SF -- at least there it was somewhat understandable since he was coming up the hill to Grace Cathedral, and you can't really see the crosswalk at the top of the hill until you're in it, but you'd think a cabbie in SF would know better. She still has no sense of taste, and still uses a cane, and at this point probably will for life.
I lived in the Valley for four and a half years when I was a young actress, but was born and raised in the Bay Area. You're right, it's something of a state joke that LA is NOT like the rest of California, with varying degrees of seriousness and anger quotient.
Do drop into Colorado -- you're entirely welcome to join us for a visit -- if you need a place to stay, let us know and we'll find one for you. We'll also lord you about the rest of the area sessions if you like. Insofar as we know, we're the only slow session in Colorado that doesn't allow sheet music. We've only two things that we're officially impatient with -- sheet music and speed snobs.
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I'll throw in my thoughts on slow sessions, learning, and speed: I think there is room in the world for every pace and every approach. God bless the saintly leaders who can patiently coach a pack of beginners through jigs and reels at dirge speed without a flinch. It seems those who are defending slow sessions see them more as workshop / learning opportunities than entertainment. So, isn't it OK if some of us think they're a bit of a snore? I like to play at all kinds of speeds, so I find ANY session that sticks to a single tempo for the whole night a bit of a yawner, fast or slow. Plus I don't like to learn in a group. Ergo, I avoid "slow" "sessions".
(I should finish that thought) That doesn't mean I don't play very slow at home, when I'm practicing, or at lessons. The main point of slow playing during learning and practice is to break everything down and really listen to myself. I don't feel I can do this with 8 or 9 other players grinding away in my ears.
HOWEVER, I really do understand that everyone learns differently and there's no "right" way. So, David, maybe you should see if there's a Comholtas in your area. I don't go there, but they play pretty slow over here.
Thanks, Dagmar, but no. I go to the Porterhouse session form time to time. Yes, it is relaxed and friendly, and I enjoy playing there, but it's certainly not slow. Obviously, the speed of tunes depends on who turns up from one week to the next, and what mood they're in, but it's never a 'slow' slow session. It's still probably fast enough to put Jimmy off playing for life.
Incidentally, SLOW slow sessions aren't always bad. Last August at Feakle, I was playing some tunes together with a fiddler/bouzouki player after the end of the festival. Due to sleep deprivation and, on his part, excessive alcohol and magic mushroom consumption over the course of the festival, our natural pace seemed to be slowed down considerably. We would launch in to tunes at what one might call a walking pace, and gradually slow down, through a saunter, to a crawl, to the point where we were so slow we were almost stopping - even the liveliest of reels. And that was some of the best music I have ever played.
I love your attitude David, and your annecdote. Jimmy sure is lucky to have a caring teacher like you (and with people interested in ITM giving you advice from all round the world). I agree with Kerri and Zina, with the proviso that the Comhaltas you approach is promoting learning to play by ear and doesn't turn out to be just another orchestra of unfolded music stands.
Well, I must have been very lucky in my beginner's days, even though I did not start, not a note, till I was 17, pretty late by Irish standards. Some of you seem to have had or know people who have had bad experiences. I experienced nothing but help and encouragement from musicians as I pestered my way to becoming a fairly proficient player. I have always tried to imitate their example. We know that talent is not always accompanied by graciousness, but I have never been at a session (out of god knows how many) where any new comer was made anything less than welcome, encouraged to "give us one of your own" and helped out when s/he/ they occasionally faltered. Not to mention being put "on the payroll" (i.e. free jar). But I just have to get this dig in. The only place where I have been totally ignored at a session was NYC some years ago in O'Neill's in Manhattan -- so without mentioning names, you might be able to guess who was there. Although, I (1) was audibly Irish (2) could play well (3) played several tunes none of them knew, no-one took me on, not a word in my direction, except for a banjo player stuck out on the edge beside me. Not that I need to be the centre of attention, but one of these ignorant hoors had met me at least on four previous occasions! So, if your slow session is providing an alternative to this kind of in-crowd musical incest, then clearly I sympathise and comprehend the need. As for Colorado, Zina, I doubt if I will ever get there. Not when I can go to LA and slag all the natives off! Or go back to O'Neill's and see what reception I get next time. Anyway, good luck to ye all wherever and however you are trying to learn. Any way is good enough if it works.
Hmmm,, Interesting statement there LongNote, Any way is good enough if it works. The more I think about it the more I realize the wisdom in what you said there.
As I have said before, there are no sessions in the Oklahoma City area, in fact, I've not heard of one anywhere here in the state. So, having never been to an actuall session as I'm hearing defined by everyone I fear I may be out of line by saying anything.
But,,,,,
I'm gonna say it anyway.
What I'm hearing people say is what works for them or what they do or don't like about a session. Sounds to me the thing to remember is that no matter how hard we try, we'll never please everyone. Slow session, fast session, if it works in that particular area, so be it. Maybe we ought to define what a session is about, what's the point of having one? Shouldn't the bottom line be fun and good music? Or have I had one to many bottles of Harp?
There it is. I await scathing responses about my ignorance of the matter.
Ah, but Wayne, try and define "fun" and "good music". For every given player, it'll be different, y'see. And so we have many different kinds of session -- and so it all works out still.
There is a slow session prior to our Fiddle Workshop in Falkirk, Central Scotland. After our classes we retire to a local pub where the speed varies from reasonable to rediculous.
We meet Tuesday evenings and there are four levels of tuition. We cater for complete beginners to faster than train speed players.
At
What about London ONTARIO Canada?
I will be spending a good part of my summer 'back home' in the London / Ingersoll / Woodstock area, and would like to find ANY kind of session - slow or intermediate for fiddle, and even fast sessions (if they allow pianos, that is! - my piano fingers are much more nimble, alas, than my fiddle ones!!)
Thanks for any info
Irene
David, I know it's a bit out of the way but the session in The White Horse in Bethnal Green is usally quite reasonable as far as tempo goes. Problem is, it starts at 10 on a Tuesday night and finishes...well I'll let you use your imagination.
Irene, I've got a friend who plays in Hamilton quite a lot; is that any use? I can ask her for the names of some pubs if you want.
Conan - that would be great if you could pass on any names of people / sessions in the Hamilton-area. There is actually a fiddler that has come up to our Elora session from Hamilton - so taking a jaunt 'down south' isn't out of the question - thanks!
Slow Session in London?
Slow Session in London?
I seen a few references to 'slow sessions' here in Discussions - mostly in the US. I am wondering if there is any such thing in London. I have a mandolin pupil (!!!) who is somewhat phased by the speed at which the notes fly by in most sessions - I, like many others, no doubt, can sympathise with him. I should imagine such a thing is hard to find - the only slow things I know of in London are the traffic and the public transport. The slowest session I know of is Mick O'Connor's session st the Cardinal Wolsey Hotel, Hampton Court, but it's inaccessible to a non-driver who doesn't live within walking distance and can't afford a cab.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Slow Session in London?
I thought I remembered seeing a notice of one at the Hammersmith Centre, but I never went, so I don't know for sure; still, surely there's got to be a slow session SOMEwhere in London -- Barney? You around?
Zina
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
Since I was once a trad tiro myself, I can remember hovering around the edge of a session trying to keep up. Tell him to just grit his teeth, go to a real session and get stuck in as best he can! I was invited to a few sessions in the US which turned out to be "slow sessions". What a concept! I could never understand why upwards of 10 people wanted to get together in a public place and play at what I would regard as practice/ learning the tune speed. And slow really meant S ---- L ---- O ---- W. They weren't kidding! Not slow, but bouncy, just slow!!! Fun maybe, but not as I know it.Having run into some of the slow session players a few years later, I found them still playing at the same funereal pace.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by LongNote
Re: Slow Session in London?
I agree with longnote in a way...obviously dont send him to the breakneck sessions in camden etc. But do send him to a session that has a nice pace......he will learn how to play faster and it will be lot easier for him if he has to. Although I have to say - the only sessions I ever went to in london were breakneck speeds.....so cant really help with the nice paced sessions. Everyone in the whole music scene has to go through that very thing & while it is frustrating not being able to keep up...it does come eventually & I personally can hardly rememeber when I couldnt keep up
)
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by bb
Re: Slow Session in London?
I agree with Zina, David. Perhaps you should try contacting The Hammersmith & Fulham Irish Centre in Hammersmith (don't ask me why I should think this when I'm upside down down under - but still, I think they might run some adult ITM classes there. Might be some others looking for an 'in' into the session scene attending them).
I recon there is fast and too fast when it comes to sessions. Fast is OK, in fact its lovely, but too fast is just that - too fast. Of course the session needs to fly, and it should, but if it aint got that swing it aint got that zing the way I see it. Why spoil basically beautiful melodies by revving them up to the point where they sound like every other reel or every other jig etc.
When I listen to the greats, they don't seem to feel the need to go beyond the pail (breakneck), certainly not on recordings at least, so why are some sessions notorious for doing it? Is it to exclude the 'lesser' from participating? Or is it a show of (weak) muscle? Competition amongst the egoes? A quest for domination?
Surely the greatest high comes from the group high. Isn't that what ITM is supposed to be all about? - and that means everybody in a session soaring high with the music together. That also means an obligation for those that can, to take the time to scaffold those who are not quite yet able, but would be if they could get the 'in' - (that is more than the obligitory 2 X or 3 X through a tune before moving on to the next one etc).
I think this is a real (not imaginary) problem for intermediate players - they're the ones that need the fast session playing experience, and they're the ones who can never get it, because the fast sessions tend to be dominated by experienced players who come and go as they please, are not prepared to even acknowledge the 'want-a-bees in', and get all the playing they could possibly want (even possibly more opportunities than they can possibly handle).
I hope David's mandolin pupil!! finds a session opportunity that's right for him.
Cheers
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by Jill
Re: Slow Session in London?
I do see what you mean jill, but I think alot of it depends on where you are. I know plenty of muso's who play at quite a nice speed but are arrogant and dont like new people...I also went to a session in Donegal a couple of months ago & was absolutley shocked at how fast they were playing. It wasnt deliberate, its the way they play & they were friendly people. The only thing I wanted to point out is that evetually new people are going to either have to learn how to play faster or they are going to have to stay playing in a really slow session forever & I'd say the sooner you get up to speed, the better. Plus if you find a session with nice supportive people - it doesnt matter if they play fast...more likely than not they will ask the new comer to start a tune and follow at their pace.
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by bb
Re: Slow Session in London?
*sigh* LongNote and bb, upwards of ten people get together regularly at the slow session that Dirk and I run every Sunday in Longmont, Colorado. Our goal is to teach them to learn tunes by ear, to introduce newcomers to session etiquette gently without risking their necks by possibly infuriating experienced players past ever being able to go to their sessions ever again, and, in fact, to get them ready to go to faster sessions.
We go the speed that the group overall can go and maintain good feel and a nice sound. Sometimes, that's a snail's pace in the case of some of the beginners even if there are intermediates there who can play faster, and sometimes, when it's just Dirk and me and some of the intermediate players, we can go faster; sometimes even up to regular session speed. We regularly encourage our players to start going to the faster sessions as soon as they feel ready. We also, though, encourage them to stay beginners as long as they need to, without feeling that they have to meet up to some standard that demands a certain pace before they're ready to play at that pace well. Speed is nice, but being able to play up to speed with the good feel is much, much better.
This session was originally begun by Matt and Shannon Heaton, who modeled it after a Chicago session led by Jimmy Keane and Sean Cleland, who felt there was a need for a session that wasn't too fast, too exclusive, or too esoteric. They play session standards only at a moderate pace, up to six or eight tunes a set up to seven or ten times each, working on the feel and on making the entire group sound great. Once we have a pool of people who know the same tunes, we hope to return to this format.
At any rate, we do have fun, we do insist that you play only the speed you can go and still play well (which is generally, I find, slower than most players usually think it is at the beginning and intermediate levels), which is how we were taught ourselves, and we do encourage people to grow out of our session. I don't think there's anything wrong with slow sessions, obviously, or I wouldn't run one. Perhaps you've just been to the wrong ones to help you to believe that slow sessions might be a positive thing.
Zina
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
No...I dont think that slow sessions are bad, all I was saying is that sitting in with faster sessions (not mental speed or anything) is a big help...I found that after awhile, I could keep up with my local session - it didnt take that long & personally I am of the type who like nice cruisy sessions, but when someone plays a bit fast its still nice to be able to keep up. I dont know of *any* slow session where I am - but I do know an awful lot of good musicians....all I was thinking is if there is no slow sessions in london - then dont stress, alot of people have managed without one. I wasnt getting down on the slow sessions - merely pointing out that you dont have to have them....
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by bb
Re: Slow Session in London?
I agree that slow sessions are great for learning, no fun to listen to though. I think they are more suited to church basements or school auditoriums than bars, less pressure for fledging musicians & less distractions (people, alcohol etc).
David, why don't you send your student to those great Camdentown sessions with a tape recorder? Than have your student sit at home with the tape & his/her mando, that way he/she gets the benifit of the music tempos etc., without running any risks. I think your student would benifit from good music played well.
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Slow Session in London?
We do a slow Scottish session in London at the Cecil Sharp House near Regent's Park every other Monday evening from 7:30 to 9:30. The next one should be on June 10th. We are a small group (anything from 3 to 10 usually) with an expanding repertoire of traditional and new Scottish tunes. Not designed for complete beginners or speed demons, but very friendly and accommodating to all. We try to learn one new tune each session and play through anything the majority know in common. All regulars have a chance to teach something if they want to and we've learned lots of wonderful tunes over the past year or so. The fact that it's not a public place means there's not an intimidating audience expecting to be entertained and we can concentrate on learning and improving. Most of us also do a weekly class with Pete Cooper every Wednesday evening at the same venue, again from 7:30 to 9:30. He teaches a new tune every week, pretty evenly divided between Irish, Scottish and English. Again, while not for complete beginners on the fiddle, he goes slowly enough for most, teaches by ear and gives music out at the end of each class. We gradually work everything up to speed so that by the end of term we're usually up to a performance tempo. Usually there is a free-for-all session in the bar afterwards with a wild mix of Scandinavian, French, American, British Isles and Eastern European tunes, depending on who is around that night. It's a wonderful group and he's a great teacher. If you're ever in London come by for a visit. There is no charge for the Scottish session, but Pete's class is done in 12-week terms and there is a fee (although possibly not for the one-off visitor). Both classes will be taking a summer break from around July 14th until sometime in September and will then start up again ona regular basis. Come join us! Holly
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by Hollyn
Re: Slow Session in London?
Thanks, everybody. I agree entirely, he should just sit in on 'full speed' sessions, and just try and keep up. But how do I convince him of that? What seems moderately paced to some of us could appear breakneck to less experienced players. It's not just a matter of being able to physically play the notes fast enough, it's being able to keep track of them, mentally separating one from the next.
Holly, the Cecil Sharp House session sounds like a good bet.
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Slow Session in London?
Well, I am not sure if I can be convinced that there are "good" *groan* slow sessions and "bad" *groan* slow sessions. Admittedly, my experiences were in California where criticism is "negativity" and individualism can be expressed by some group activity. And Ireland is a place where you learn the hard way. Learning / practising was something you did alone at home. Until you got it right. And the session was the place where you found out if you had it right or not. And you always had to play a solo. I don't think there's any speed i can't handle now, though I really dislike absurdly fast sessions. Frankie Gavin once told me that he always like to "lash into a tune" as you can always slow down. But it is clearly harder to speed up. And if the slow session is a regular, weekly event, then isn't it in danger of becoming a refuge from the big, bad "real" session? So that people never have to go there and never learn to play at speed and never play with the best musicians. And that seems to be true of the slowies I know. A kind of reverse elitism? I can understand it as a private gathering at someone's home or the parish hall or as an after-lesson jam, as has been suggested, but not in a pub or as a special part of a regular session. There may be something to be said for a slow session, but just as much and maybe more for jumping in at the deep end and sticking with it. We all know that hearing good music played well is a vital part of learning. I suppose, we just have to learn whatever way we can, slow or, preferably, not slow.
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by LongNote
Re: Slow Session in London?
Clearly harder to speed up? Maybe harder to speed up and still play well, but I've been to an awful lot of sessions where the tunes just got faster and faster and faster and faster...no trouble at all
It's one of the things I hate most about sessions, when they can't hold a tune to the speed they started at.
The reason we have our slow sessions at 12:30 in the afternoon in a coffeehouse on a Sunday instead of an evening at a bar is because it doesn't conflict with any of the other sessions in town, y'see, plus there's not as much pressure on people to "perform" in a coffeehouse. But we're no refuge. In fact, most of our regulars sweat out being forced to learn the tunes by ear -- they call me the big bad Aural Nazi, as a matter of fact, because I don't allow sheet music during the session. Many of the regulars in fact go to other sessions during the week. We talk up the other sessions and encourage attendance at them.
Besides which, at least in the US, we have lots of people who stay home to practise but unfortunately don't know what it is they're trying to practise doing right.
I generally find that the players who don't go to the other sessions are usually not going because they don't have the ability yet (which is why they're attending our session in the first place, to get it), or have no self-confidence, and/or were treated badly by someone at a regular session who doesn't believe that regular sessions shouldn't cater to beginners.
But hey, if you want to discourage people from going to slow sessions because you scorn them, fair play to you. I was born in California myself and my family lives there, so perhaps I tend to believe that everyone should get a fair shake simply because I have a morphic resonance with the place or something. So now that you've denigrated slow sessions and California, both things that I'm intimately connected with, would you like to try for a third, LongNote? *grin*
Zina
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
Just found a list of London sessions on another mailing-list and one is mentioned as friendly and relaxed, so maybe what your pupil is looking for...It is : The Porterhouse. Maiden Lane, near Covent Garden (runs parallel to The Strand). Tel:020 7379 7917 Starts every Sunday 4:30pm. Sometimes one needs to gain more self assurance before he starts playing the real fast sessions
)) I can play some tunes quite fast until I try to play them along with other people in the same speed....*sigh*
Dagmar
# Posted on May 30th 2002 by drdagmar
Re: Slow Session in London?
David, if your student calls the Cecil Sharp House they will be able to give him details on Pete's class, or he could just drop by some Wednesday night and see if he likes it (and us). The closest tube station is Camden Town and it's an easy walk from there. There's sometimes up to 40-something people there, of all levels and backgrounds and I'm sure a budding mandolin player would be most welcome among all the fiddles. While it's definitely a class and not the same as a 'real' session, it does prepare you for sessions, and we generally do an end-of-term performance in front of an audience. It also offers the opportunity to try some solo work in front of a supportive group, and some of us have even begun writing our own tunes, so it is a good training ground for whatever you want to do with the music. And of course, Pete is great.
With regard to slow sessions in general, my feeling is that yes, you do eventually become able to play up to speed but sometimes that can take years and if the only choices for playing are alone in your living room or dumped into the deep end of a typical session where you can't keep up even on the tunes you know well, it is easy to get discouraged and feel like you'll NEVER be able to do it. Slow sessions are a good stepping stone between the security of your living room and the intimidation of sessions. The playing field is level, you learn important aspects of the music and musicianship that you can't experience practicing on your own - like listening to other people, keeping a steady tempo, keeping up with and being part of a group, etc. and so serves an invaluable purpose. Our slow Scottish group also does occasional workshops and brings in a 'guest' instructor from Scotland (we will likely have Ian Fraser do a class in June) and opens the session up to anybody who wants to pay a minimal fee to cover the tutor. So we also get a chance to learn from and play with some really great musicians. We also get some fiddlers who are up to session level in other styles of music (like Irish), but want to experiment with and learn from the Scottish tradion in a non-stressful setting. I sort of look on it as something entirely different from sessions, which serves its own valuable purpose and helps encourage and train a wide range of musicians. Holly
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Hollyn
Re: Slow Session in London?
Still missing my point - but thats ok - I think slow sessions are fine, just that you should find a session with nice people in it wether they play fast or slow, make friends etc.....its true, most people I know learnt at home then went to sessions when they had a few tunes, there are no slow/beginer sessions where I grew up...it did me no harm, nor anyone else I know. But good luck finding a session for your student!
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by bb
Re: Slow Session in London?
Zina, do not underestimate how well I know California. At least LA / southern California, which ,admittedly, is not California in the same way Dublin is not Ireland. I certainly do not detect "scorn" in my remarks, but rather bemusement and a good dose of northern Irish scepticism. But, I am always open to being proved wrong. I will have to drop into the Colorado slowie one of these days for that express purpose. I thoroughly approve of no written music. I was stunned to attend a gathering where some people whipped out tune books and set them on on music stands!! Third thing which annoys me in California -- turning right on a red light, which resulted in two near-misses and my finally being hit by a huge SUV in LA on a cross walk and knocked across the road. Despite the exhortations of the assembled gawkers / passers-by, I chose not to sue after having a few words with the terrified female driver. I wasn't that badly injured that I required hospitalization.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by LongNote
Re: Slow Session in London?
David, I could be repeating something someone has already said here, but what are the chances of you starting something where you are at?
I've made an attempt at that here in the Oklahoma City area where there are no sessions, slow or fast. We have started meeting in peoples houses. The majority of the folks showing up are advanced musicians and well up to speed, but there are some beginers coming who we have taken in. We mix it up with fast an slow. At times, splitting up into different rooms placing a willing advanced player or two with a beginner. It has been working out well and giving the beginner hope.
Again, sorry if this is a repeat someone else has already suggested.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Slow Session in London?
I think what Zina and Dirk are doing is absolutely wonderful, and if I could, I would certainly be there on Sunday arvos. They are sharing their experiences of ITM and are being true to the spirit of the music, inclusive. And by the sounds of it, are having fun and making friends (with a diversity of talents) in the process.
Of course if you have been lucky enough to grow up hearing and understanding the music from an early age then picking up an instrument and letting it rip is probably as easy as talking - and who can remember learning to talk???? But let's face it guys, even the experienced players teach each other new tunes at a slower pace than they play them in the fast session (usually privately outside of the session where the newcomer is not invited). Yet newcomers are expected to pick up those same tunes at session speed from the session. Its stacked against them unless they get some 'in' (ie. access to tune learning sessions such as SCTLS, someone prepared to share session tunes with them by ear, allowing sessions to be taped, etc.).
But I also think you are right bb, if sessioners are friendly and willing to take on their fair share of sharing and caring, it doesn't matter that the session is fast (but not too fast) because newcomers would have a goal to work toward and wouldn't feel they had been squashed flat by a randomly charging run away steam-roller.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Jill
Re: Slow Session in London?
Good God, LongNote, thank goodness you weren't hurt worse! My aunt is still recovering from being hit by a cab near her home in SF -- at least there it was somewhat understandable since he was coming up the hill to Grace Cathedral, and you can't really see the crosswalk at the top of the hill until you're in it, but you'd think a cabbie in SF would know better. She still has no sense of taste, and still uses a cane, and at this point probably will for life.
I lived in the Valley for four and a half years when I was a young actress, but was born and raised in the Bay Area. You're right, it's something of a state joke that LA is NOT like the rest of California, with varying degrees of seriousness and anger quotient.
Do drop into Colorado -- you're entirely welcome to join us for a visit -- if you need a place to stay, let us know and we'll find one for you. We'll also lord you about the rest of the area sessions if you like. Insofar as we know, we're the only slow session in Colorado that doesn't allow sheet music. We've only two things that we're officially impatient with -- sheet music and speed snobs.
You can check out our webpage at http://www.slowplayers.org/SCTLS. When's the next time you'll be out here?
Zina
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I'll throw in my thoughts on slow sessions, learning, and speed: I think there is room in the world for every pace and every approach. God bless the saintly leaders who can patiently coach a pack of beginners through jigs and reels at dirge speed without a flinch. It seems those who are defending slow sessions see them more as workshop / learning opportunities than entertainment. So, isn't it OK if some of us think they're a bit of a snore? I like to play at all kinds of speeds, so I find ANY session that sticks to a single tempo for the whole night a bit of a yawner, fast or slow. Plus I don't like to learn in a group. Ergo, I avoid "slow" "sessions".
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Slow Session in London?
(I should finish that thought) That doesn't mean I don't play very slow at home, when I'm practicing, or at lessons. The main point of slow playing during learning and practice is to break everything down and really listen to myself. I don't feel I can do this with 8 or 9 other players grinding away in my ears.
HOWEVER, I really do understand that everyone learns differently and there's no "right" way. So, David, maybe you should see if there's a Comholtas in your area. I don't go there, but they play pretty slow over here.
Kerri
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Slow Session in London?
Thanks, Dagmar, but no. I go to the Porterhouse session form time to time. Yes, it is relaxed and friendly, and I enjoy playing there, but it's certainly not slow. Obviously, the speed of tunes depends on who turns up from one week to the next, and what mood they're in, but it's never a 'slow' slow session. It's still probably fast enough to put Jimmy off playing for life.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Incidentally, SLOW slow sessions aren't always bad. Last August at Feakle, I was playing some tunes together with a fiddler/bouzouki player after the end of the festival. Due to sleep deprivation and, on his part, excessive alcohol and magic mushroom consumption over the course of the festival, our natural pace seemed to be slowed down considerably. We would launch in to tunes at what one might call a walking pace, and gradually slow down, through a saunter, to a crawl, to the point where we were so slow we were almost stopping - even the liveliest of reels. And that was some of the best music I have ever played.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Slow Session in London?
*snicker* What a funny story, David. Hehehe...
Kerri's suggestion of Comhaltas is a very good one, too...
Zina
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
I love your attitude David, and your annecdote. Jimmy sure is lucky to have a caring teacher like you (and with people interested in ITM giving you advice from all round the world). I agree with Kerri and Zina, with the proviso that the Comhaltas you approach is promoting learning to play by ear and doesn't turn out to be just another orchestra of unfolded music stands.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Jill
Re: Slow Session in London?
Well, I must have been very lucky in my beginner's days, even though I did not start, not a note, till I was 17, pretty late by Irish standards. Some of you seem to have had or know people who have had bad experiences. I experienced nothing but help and encouragement from musicians as I pestered my way to becoming a fairly proficient player. I have always tried to imitate their example. We know that talent is not always accompanied by graciousness, but I have never been at a session (out of god knows how many) where any new comer was made anything less than welcome, encouraged to "give us one of your own" and helped out when s/he/ they occasionally faltered. Not to mention being put "on the payroll" (i.e. free jar). But I just have to get this dig in. The only place where I have been totally ignored at a session was NYC some years ago in O'Neill's in Manhattan -- so without mentioning names, you might be able to guess who was there. Although, I (1) was audibly Irish (2) could play well (3) played several tunes none of them knew, no-one took me on, not a word in my direction, except for a banjo player stuck out on the edge beside me. Not that I need to be the centre of attention, but one of these ignorant hoors had met me at least on four previous occasions! So, if your slow session is providing an alternative to this kind of in-crowd musical incest, then clearly I sympathise and comprehend the need. As for Colorado, Zina, I doubt if I will ever get there. Not when I can go to LA and slag all the natives off! Or go back to O'Neill's and see what reception I get next time. Anyway, good luck to ye all wherever and however you are trying to learn. Any way is good enough if it works.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by LongNote
Re: Slow Session in London?
Hmmm,, Interesting statement there LongNote, Any way is good enough if it works. The more I think about it the more I realize the wisdom in what you said there.
As I have said before, there are no sessions in the Oklahoma City area, in fact, I've not heard of one anywhere here in the state. So, having never been to an actuall session as I'm hearing defined by everyone I fear I may be out of line by saying anything.
But,,,,,
I'm gonna say it anyway.
What I'm hearing people say is what works for them or what they do or don't like about a session. Sounds to me the thing to remember is that no matter how hard we try, we'll never please everyone. Slow session, fast session, if it works in that particular area, so be it. Maybe we ought to define what a session is about, what's the point of having one? Shouldn't the bottom line be fun and good music? Or have I had one to many bottles of Harp?
There it is. I await scathing responses about my ignorance of the matter.
Wayne
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Slow Session in London?
Ah, but Wayne, try and define "fun" and "good music". For every given player, it'll be different, y'see. And so we have many different kinds of session -- and so it all works out still.
Zina
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Slow Session in London?
My point exactly, so if it works, don't try to fix it.
# Posted on June 1st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: Slow Session in London?
There is a slow session prior to our Fiddle Workshop in Falkirk, Central Scotland. After our classes we retire to a local pub where the speed varies from reasonable to rediculous.
We meet Tuesday evenings and there are four levels of tuition. We cater for complete beginners to faster than train speed players.
At
# Posted on June 1st 2002 by barrie
Re: Slow Session in London?
What about London ONTARIO Canada?
I will be spending a good part of my summer 'back home' in the London / Ingersoll / Woodstock area, and would like to find ANY kind of session - slow or intermediate for fiddle, and even fast sessions (if they allow pianos, that is! - my piano fingers are much more nimble, alas, than my fiddle ones!!)
Thanks for any info
Irene
# Posted on June 2nd 2002 by IJ Shelton
Re: Slow Session in London?
David, I know it's a bit out of the way but the session in The White Horse in Bethnal Green is usally quite reasonable as far as tempo goes. Problem is, it starts at 10 on a Tuesday night and finishes...well I'll let you use your imagination.
Irene, I've got a friend who plays in Hamilton quite a lot; is that any use? I can ask her for the names of some pubs if you want.
Conan
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Slow Session in London?
Conan - that would be great if you could pass on any names of people / sessions in the Hamilton-area. There is actually a fiddler that has come up to our Elora session from Hamilton - so taking a jaunt 'down south' isn't out of the question - thanks!
Irene
# Posted on June 9th 2002 by IJ Shelton