Again and again it occurs to me that I get the very best results with incredibly short bow strokes. For your information: I'm into Sligo/Clare fiddling; my great example is Kevin Burke. I always thought that you had to use rather long bow strokes for these styles, but my timing / subtle use of dynamics / overall speed greatly incraeses by keeping it short. I also like the sound, apart from a bit loss of volume. It is also more comfortable, you don't hav to press on the bow so much.
Am I going the wrong direction? Is keeping it short a 'sign of weakness' ?
I don't think its a weakness, one of my favourite players is Liz Carrol, and if you watch her play, she only uses a few inches at the tip of her bow except when she suddenly throws in a swooping long bow, for startling effect.
I tend to play in the top half of my bow, but it depends on the piece of music and the sound you are trying to get... would write more on the subject but am trying not to let my manager see me indulging in too much out of office work!!
I've found that the faster the speed, the less bow I need to use. I wouldn't say this is a sign of weakness - it's just doing what works. It makes sense to me to use long bows for slow airs, and short bows for fast reels, jigs, etc. The faster the pace, the shorter the bow.
It really is all about style - I use shortish bow strokes - exept for the long ones I'd say its really up to your own personal choice...as long as they arent really single and classical sounding
I think experimenting is good, Henk. Sometimes I use short bows. Sometimes I use long bows. Sometimes I switch bow direction when I change strings. Sometimes I cross-bow. On some tunes, especially tunes that spend lots of time down in the lower depths of the fiddle, I currently think it sounds great to use short bows dug down into the string (the fourth Bobby Casey's, for instance) near the frog. On tunes that move quickly, I tend to use short bows up by the tip. I always try to find the unexpected slur between notes, though, as coming from a classical background, I tend to slur in even groups, so it's a good exercise for me.
I have the same experiences with the bow. I usually stick to the upper half of the bow in any case. I believe that the better the bow, the more inclination you will have to use the entire bow. A good balance will do that to you.
On the Flip side, My Great Aunt would jump all over me for not using the entire bow. She was a classical instructor in her younger days. Now, she just likes to pick on me when I play fabulous music.
I believe that you should be comfortable using the entire bow. Other than that, Play the music the way it needs to be played.
I'm the opposite - I play mainly with the bottom of the bow -but that is probably cause it is the worst bow in the entire world - and I'm not the only one who thinks so...eveyone says it. I'd say to keep the sound fresh - throw in a long bow every so often - dont want it to become boring (like my comments)
You have a whole bow, use it! Different types of tunes require different amounts of bow, its fine to use mainly short bow for fast reels but definitly not for slow tunes. Vary your bowing, it makes the fiddling sound more interesting. You have 4 strings and im sure you wouldnt consider not using one of them, the same goes for your bow, you have a long bow so you should make use of it. Think of it as a an extra dimension.
Henk, if you like it, do it. You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about using the bow. That is the mark of a mature fiddler.
Keep it up.
For me, personally, I have made some big gains in my tone, over the past six months, by focussing on using longer bow strokes.
At my current stage, it gives me a steadier tone, a stronger tone, and a richer tone, and I need all the help I can get! :O) I also find that a longer stroke helps my timing, especially on string crossings and in jigs. I do play slower, and more deliberately with a longer stroke , jigs about 112 to 120, and reels 108 to 112 beats per minute. I find that I can get more expression in the tunes. However, most sessions like to play at quicker tempi than this, but then, I just shorten up the bow and follow along when I know the tunes.
Just another perspective...
Cheers,
Scott Donaldson
Doing my darnest not to contribute when I should be doing other urgent and terribly important things. But I've gotta push a tad of my two sence in this thread. I think variety is the spice. Short bows can sound great when they are smooth. I recon its in the attitude of the player: the approach to the music. If you take the time to be smooth you will naturally be fast (and have nice tone), but if you're rushing it ..... Arrh well! I for one wouldn't be hanging round!
I tend to use only the upper half of my bow on fast tunes with a lot of notes, one stroke for each note. Could be because I'm a former flatpicker I'm told. I use long strokes if I want to put in slurs, which for some of tunes that sounds better. Slower tunes generaly get a lot more bow out of me.
I'd say if it works for you, saw on short or long.
I noticed that in all the dicussions no one has mentioned bow speed or pressure. Volume can be achieved by speed or pressure or a combination of the two. At speed there is no way to execute a bowed triplet with consistent volume and separation using a long stroke. The idea is give each note the proper amount of time and the proper emphasis, i.e variation in volume, which requires consant adjustment to all three elements: speed, pressure and stroke length.
All this is predicated on listening carefully to what is actually occurring and not assuming that any one-size-fits-all formula will produce musically valid outcome.
Whatcha talking about? It's all about maximum sound for minimum effort! Short bows are where it's at! So long as you leave the appropriate 'breath' between notes, it's all good. Otherwise, you get that 'frantic' sound we hear too often.
Hi Caoimghgin
I've got a multi media package, three huge portfolios and some other things due on Friday, so I shouldn't be doing this - I really don't have the time. But can't resist!!!
I guess I'm not very good at explaining myself. What I mean is the really short little bows that you use in bowed triplets etc shouldn't be jerky they should be smooth - ripples. I tend to play bowed triplets instead of slurs and I know it works. Zina has talked about using different bowing patterns to create variations, so yes, sometimes you slur (longer bows) and sometimes you use separate bows, and change the patterns etc etc. Sometimes I do stuff like slurring into a role or drop in a cut or a cran. That's the spice, the variety.
Eons ago I made the (probably highly unoriginal) revelation that you slow the bow down (using less bow smoothly) to play faster and somehow it works (for me anyway) but you still keep the swing, the emphasis on the right notes and the smoothness of the melody. I am much less concerned with volume than tone (but my fiddle is naturally loud and has a nice sound).
Maybe someone else could explain it better than me (I am not an expert, only a very enthusiastic enthusiast) - or am I just a nut case that has some very warpo ideas?????????? I for one cannot stand that 'frantic' sound, and have been known to run a mile from it.
Does that clear the muddy waters? Or just increased the turbidity?
Now back to the pressing job at hand.
Cheers
Caoimghgan,
The way you state it I get the impression that your approach favors quantity over quality. Paraphrasing what I think Jill was getting, each note or phrase or ornament occuppies a precise amount of time in relation to the other elements around it. A roll can be addressed in a variety of ways as long as it fits properly into the time space allotted for it.
The amount of bow used for each element is determined by the element in relation to what comes next. If, for example, you play a 1-down, 3-up slur pattern the down-bow has to travel the same distance as the up-bow in one third the time to keep it in the right place. The increased speed, assuming the pressure remains constant, gives that one 1/8th note three times as much bow as the the others. The result is an accent without getting your bow jammed up at one end or the other, requiring a frantic recovery. This kind of bow management allows for a more natural pulse to be imparted to the tune and gives more control over the choices you have available for variation.
If the main idea is volume and speed, have you consider highland pipes?
Nah, I think I know what Kevin is saying, and he's not advocating quantity over quality, I don't think. He just happens to really like short bowing. Right now, for instance, I'm experimenting with crunchy bowed triplets rather than smoother ones, especially single note triplets -- first off, my bowing work isn't terribly good on the mvoing triplets, so that's not there yet anyway, but also I don't like the crunchy sound on them nearly as much. I don't think they're going to stay as crunchy and raspy as they are now, but I wanted to try an extreme before I got to the middle.
It all works -- it's just a question of what works for you right now at this time, and it can change according to your fancy on any given day or period of playing.
Funnily enough, AOG, I've never noted speed as an issue amongst highland pipers. In the world of Irish dancers, dancing reels with highland pipes feels very very slow, although the jigs are often the right speed for Irish. Volume now...lots of volume!
Chris, didja ever go back to listen to the paste-you-to-the-walls highland pipers session?
Zina, no, I never did. And now our Wednesdays are busy with a band my husband and brother are in. I get my once a month session and stay as late as I like and in return I go and support the band rehearsals. It's one of those husband/wife trade-offs we had a thread about earlier! However, I have a bead on a new-to-me session that I might go check out this Sunday.
I'm still fascinated by the crunchy triplet sound but I have smoothed out my rolls some. It was hard to un-do the speed-up-bow-and-increase-pressure trick though! I remember someone (Will, Kevin G?) saying it could take 10 years to get the rolls right though so I'm *trying* to be patient
As far a bow use goes, I'm in a short-as-possible- phase right now but AOG's comments about "bow management" sure hit home! I've been messing around a lot with the 1 down 3 up pattern and I sure can get in a lot of trouble very quickly. But I feel like I'm really *learning* now instead of just playing any which way. Frantic recoveries are to be expected for a bit, I guess!
I still can't get over only sessioning once a month, Chris...of course, right now I'm only doing my slow session, which seems like little to me, but we've also got rehearsals in there once a week, so it's not so bad. But I really need to get out so I dont feel so provincial, musically speaking. Maybe I'll have more time this summer. (Hah.)
I'm still working on getting the rolls right. Right now I'd say I'm about at 70% proper rolls with all five notes in and pulling away properly with the right feel. The others just deserve the little "I suck" balloon over them. *grin*
After that, the goal is the bowed moving triplets.
But I am really having fun with the scratchy, dug-down-into-the-string short bowing. Pat O'Connor does a great version of Bobby Casey's that he actually tunes down for so that he has (I would assume) more bounce and grit to the sound (or maybe he was just flat and liked it and kept it for the recording, I dunno), and it's inspired me to try and dig down into that myself for a while.
But I've found myself starting to really listen to the smoother stuff recently too, so that may be signalling a change.
Just a caution. It's tempting to think in mathematical terms as AOG has, and bowing patterns do sometimes work that way, but I think it's dangerous to assume that a bow stroke in one direction *has* to equal out the following strokes. In AOG's example of a down bow followed by three notes on an up bow, for instance, the down bow could be longer or shorter than the following 3-slur up bow, depending on (1) how you want to phrase that passage and (2) where you want to end up on the bow. In other words, the length of your bow stroke is determined by other choices, not by a w = x+y+z equation.
For instance, if I'm trying to work down toward the frog, my down bow in these situations will likely be shorter than subsequent up bows. You can accomplish this by decreasing bow speed or stopping the stroke on the down bow, or by increasing bow speed on the up bow. Or you can use some other combination of down and up bows to get there. Or you can lift the hair off the string and replant the bow closer to the frog.
In short, there are lots of variables that allow us to move around on the stick (or stay roughly in the same section of stick) without worrying too much about equal or unequal bow strokes. Instead, how we move the bow is mostly decided by what we want to do to the length and tone and volume, etc. of each note, while anticpating the line of notes ahead. It's like playing billiards--you have to think ahead to leave the cue ball where you want it, depending on how you want to play the next shot. Except that when I'm playing fiddle, I don't really "calculate" where I'm going...it's more effective to decide what "mood" I want to give the notes ahead and let body language do the rest.
What all this boils down to for me is that bow direction, speed, pressure, length, etc., are all determined on the fly based on what emotion or meaning I want to give to the *sound.* In my mind, I don't worry about whether it all evens out in the end--that basically takes care of itself.
I like Kevin Burke's mental approach to all this--bowing is simple: you're either going up or down. Just keep the hair side facing the strings.
Will is right about the variations, but that goes to the point of the context in which the particular element appears. I was giving as simplified an example as possible to introduce the concept of concious bow management as opposed to short versus long stroke simplification.
I find that for practice it is easier to achieve controlled variation if I start from a systematic basis. For years I just had at the fiddle with some hideous cat-skinning results, but when I began to work on concious systematic bowing (under the tutelage of Chris McGrath) I made more progress in one year in sound production, tune retention, and style than I had in the last fifteen.
The short version is that you can't really go where the spirit moves if you don't know where you're starting from.
AOG, I think we agree (and I certainly agree that when you're first learning, it helps to be consciously grounded in all aspects of using the bow, so you can eventually be free of all that focus on technique). But I wasn't talking about bowing variations, but *variables*--all the possible ways (length, speed, pressure, etc.) to get what you want out of the bow. I agree that it takes years of conscious, rapt attention to those details before you can just wing it and get good results. I just think we're better off if we don't let that stifle our urge to explore the various possibilities and that we shouldn't worry too much about the fractal symmetry of our efforts. But maybe that's because I already tend to overanalyze everything.... grin.
I don't think, Zina, that I'm nearly as high energy as you seem to be! But since I've scaled back my sessioning, I've seen some real improvement in my playing. I think the weekly session just had me cramming tunes into my head as fast as possible and not working on technique at *all*. I couldn't seem to manage both. Now, I think I might be able to, hence the upcoming visit to a new session!
Yeah, some days my rolls are ok, some days the balloon goes up. *But*, not doing the bow trick I mentioned, just letting my left hand do the work has made it seem easier. I think Will pointed that out before. But I have to ask you....what are "bowed moving triplets"?
I *have* noticed that now that I'm using shorter bows when I can, my speed has improved. But I don't want to sound "frantic"...but not dirge-y, either. Where *is* that happy medium, darn it?? Where is that Fractal Symmetry? Heh. Another tune name, Will!
Fiddle, fiddle burning bright
in the session of the night
What immortal hand or eye
could frame thy fractal symmetry....
Moving bowed triplets, Christine, are triplets that are single bowed AND that move from one pitch to one or two more. They blur by just as quickly as a "normal" bowed triplet, but your left hand has some fast fingering to do to keep up. For example:
|eA (3cBA where (3cBA is bowed down-up-down or up-down-up.
Ohhh. I didn't know that technique had a name. Thanks! I meant to start practicing those. Ooops They're tooooo haaaarrrrd *whine*....Are they associated with a particular style? It seems like I either (A) haven't heard them used much or (B) aren't listening carefully enough.
I liked both the Latin doggerel and the Blake-ian doggerel, myself! But then one of my favorite books is Poetry for Cats, which is famous poems written from a cat's perspective. Easy to amuse, that's me, ohh yeah...
heehee, Chris...Ryan Shannon (his mother's name is actually Shannon Shannon, believe it or else) is our resident young (nine or ten) hotshot at the SCTLS -- he started in Suzuki, and he can pick up the tunes almost as fast as Dirk.
He usually does single-bowed moving triplets, and a couple weeks ago I told him (especially since he's coming from a Scottish music background and moving to the Irish) that he should try the moving bowed triplets in a tune I was teaching him...and that's EXACTLY what he said about them! Whine and all. *grin*
I don't know if the moving bowed triplets are associated with a particular style. I've heard Donegal, Clare, and Sligo players all use them now, and it's all over the US, but don't know if that's because they happen to like them or if it's an overall Irish music thing. I'm sure someone else does, though...anyone?
It all depends on the phrase your playing doesn't it? I know some folks like to play the top of the bow & others play almost at the frog. I myself take the Buddha aproach & go the middle way - I stay in the middle of the bow, for little cross bowed phrases like D2 ADBD AD | I'll use short bows (at the tip or in the middle, if I do it too close to the frog it gets scratchy), but for a long note I go from frog to tip. It all depends on what needs to be played. All in all don't worry about your bowing unless it's tripping you up, just do what comes naturally to bring out the swing. Or try to at least 72% of the time.
Well, I discovered during practice last night that I was already doing them (er, attemping them) in a polka set I play. And I usually hit them some where near the middle of the bow. So I started trying to put them where ever I'd normally put a one bow moving triplet. Makes for an interesting change. But wow, they really are tricky! Rolls aren't hard enough...Ohhhh nnnnooo! Heh. Back to dirge tempo to get those puppies.
I think I mentioned this before on another thread, but you can make a reasonable argument for slurring triplets that run up in pitch (e.g., (3Bcd ) and single-bowing triplets than run down (e.g., (3cBA ) because the "hammer on" effect of pouncing on the higher notes as you go up helps articulate the triplet. Coming off the string as you go down in pitch does not have the same effect, so it's often useful to add some pop with the bow. Of course that doesn't mean that you shouldn't single bow those uphill triplets--go with what your ear tells you.
I'm going to jump in and disagree with Brad, but then he wouldn't expect otherwise.
BTW, Brad's son, Brendan, at 15 months, can sit through an entire session with a smile on his face. He seemed to have some aversion to the tin whistle, though, since he kept throwing it on the floor.
Anyway, I digress, you have to worry about your bowing all the time since it is the sole source of for the production of sound. If the bow isn't doing what you want it to it makes almost no difference what you do with the left hand because the sound produced will be a hit or miss proposition. It would kind of be like singing without knowing whether you were breathing in or out when you tried to produce a note.
When I said that I ment that you should learn your bowing like you learn to breath. If you have to have to make a concerted effort to inhale & exhale everytime you take a breath - than you'd better not get distracted. Same with bowing - it should be second nature. There should be some thought put in to it, but it shouldn't be your only concern when your playing the fiddle. Unless your playing the highland pipes where you need to worry about the bowing exactly 72% of time.
Has it really been 15 months since Brendan was born? Yipes. Time flies when you're having.
I wonder...it's been a long time now since I first learned to play a violin (and almost immediately gave it up for a viola, because I was offended by my own squeaks and squawks -- I believe I was in the second or third grade at the time, and it took me 'til three years ago now to go back to the violin), and I'm trying to remember the various "chapters" of learning bowing.
There's that period when you first pick up the thing, and it feels incredibly awkward and un-natural and most of your energy is spent trying to hold up the fiddle (rather than standing underneath it, as per Will's wonderful quote). You scowl at the bow, trying to keep the thing moving on the right track at the right angle. The mysteries of cross bowing and such confuse and frustrate you on a regular basis. You work at gaining speed and coordination between hands, learn about things like staccato bowing and long bows
Then you finally "get" the idea of how to bow in a basic sense, and move on to things like relaxing the arm/wrist/hand, and bow speed and pressure. You also start working on the fine points of coordinating right hand with left, etc.
Then you start working on those little niggling bits, each fiddler to their own specialized little foibles.
And somewhere in there, you decide to change something basic, and start all over again more than once.
Like many things, it seems that most of the effort is up front, which doesn't seem fair somehow, but there you are. And at this vantage point now, it seems like I start all over again every other week.
Yet I know exactly what both AOG and Brad mean -- bowing, like talking, is second nature to me. I had to learn how to talk, and I still find out new things about words and vocabulary and vocal production and what my voice can and can't do, yet I don't really think about it until I discover that there's something I want to do that I don't know how to do or that my hands won't yet do what my head and ear wants them to. Bowing IS terribly important, and deserves your attention to detail and practising at, and yet at the same time you should be striving to get to the point where it's just a natural part of your playing.
Oh god, I'd better get a move on, we go into the studio today, and I have a dress to finish before then.
it is a tough one isnt it - I would say you should try and work on it - play totally different patterns & ornaments, try to change the tune every time you play it and eventually you will never think about it - it will just happen. I had a girl come up to me in a session last night, who had obviously been classically trained (she studied at peabodies???)anyhow - she could not get over the way I played, held the bow, held the fiddle etc. She was really interested and asked all kinds of questions like how did I hold the bow & how did I work the bow etc - and I honestly couldnt answer. It struck me I sounded quite rude because I was sitting there saying I didnt really know what i did, as if I was a musician who didnt want to give up the secrets. But my point is - I just dont think about it anymore at all - obviously I did at one stage, and I worked at it. At that time I put all my effort into doing different bowing patterns every time I played a tune. Dont suppose this has been much help - I tend to state the obvious - sorry )
No its a start, thanks. it sems to be that whereas the "tradition" is that fiddler's spontaneously do variations each tome they play is wrong caus you need to have worked out in advance the bowing posibilites and whether they are okay? does this sound right or do some players innovate as they go along (this too seems possible) but is of a higher order than i have reached as yet. then again also if you play the tune holding certain notes longer or with jagged triplets or running triplets, these variations would allow different bowing patterns to creepin.
sometimes i wake up to what i'm doing (and some tunes lend themselves to this more than others) i realise i'm playing one down followed by three up measure after measure.
no - I didnt mean work it out in advanced, a good fiddle player is spontaneous - you can see in in their playing. All I meant was that the more you practice doing things differently you wont even have to think about it anymore - you will just be doing loads of things off the top of your head and you wont even notice. I never play the tune the same way - but I dont work it out or anything at home - if I put a bowed triplet in or a roll or a cut - you can be sure that I thought of doing it a nano second before I did it. No great thought goes into what I am playing - it just happens......do I sound as confusing to you as I do to myself??
you sound like someone who had the great benefit of hearing the music from early on or else has become totally immersed in it. im more of a an enthusiastic dilletante which probably explains why its still not totally natural
Ah, little grasshopper, bowing is not a destination but a journey with no clear path. Follow your bliss. *Grin and Groan.*
Looking back on it, I've gone through many stages with bowing, sort of the way Zina describes it. At first I just struggled with the basics ("up" and "down"). Then I learned a few simple approaches to dealing with the common bowing challenges of jigs, reels, and polkas. Not much variety in my bowing at that stage, and I went for years basically playing tunes the same way over and over again. But also during that time I was smoothing out rolls and triplets, gradually expanding my bag of tricks, and improving tone and rhythm. Some of the tricks would force me to revisit my bowing and try something different. Or I'd hear another fiddler do something new and work it out, learning new bowing ideas in the process. Or a new tune would throw a new bowing problem at me to solve.
Through all of this, I think what happens is that you eventually have a whole menu of ornaments, phrasing options, melodic and rhythmic variations, etc. at the ready when you launch into a tune. You've done all these things so many times that they become automatic and can be inserted wherever you hear an opportunity. At first, this happens mostly in "familiar" spots--say you play a reel with the common phrase of |G2 BG dGBG|. You'll instantly know that you could choose any of the following variations the next time around:
|DGBG dGBG|
|(3GGG BG dGBG|
|G~B3 dGBG|
|GABG dGBG|
|G2 BG DGBG|
|G2 BG (3Bcd BG|
|G2 (3BAG dGBG|
|~G3B d2 BG|
|GBAc BdBG|
and so on.
Of course, each of these variations brings with it a number of different bowing options, adding even more potential for variety in your playing. And the next phrase will also have it's possibilities, with otpions on how to combine the two phrases (which will also influence your bowing choices).
At first, I tried to take one thing at a time. It helped to practice such variations and choose a set way to bow them before breaking them out at a session, but pretty soon they were leaping uninvited (but quite welcome) into my playing, even into places I would not have planned to put them. And the bowing started to take care of itself.
So a couple of years ago, I felt like I topped a major plateau when I realized that I could get through tunes--even tricky spots--without worrying about whether my bow was doing the "right" thing. Even if I ended up bowing something completely "backwards" from how I'd done it before, the tune kept going, at least long enough for me to find the groove again. And ornaments and variations started blooming in surprising places, so surprising I'd sometimes go back over the tune more slowly to try and figure out what I'd just done so I could remember to use it again, or in other tunes.
I'm fairly convinced that all of this comes from two things: (1) repetition of the 1,000 or so possibilities until they're all comfortable, and then they start appearing in new combinations. Within the ITM tradition, on fiddle, there's a fairly short list of bowing and left-hand options, but an exponentially longer list of ways to combine them. And I think that's how most fiddlers progress--they master the short list, and then begin exploring the longer list.
And (2) playing with other people, particularly in sessions. Necessity really is the mother of invention, and if you want your bowing and playing to be inventive (rather than predictable), then you have to play in situations where you'll be forced to try something new at tempo. Sessions are great for this. They are breeding grounds for new tunes, old tunes in new ways, and uninhibited, inebriated explorations not possible sober and alone at home.
God, what a rambler I am. I hope this helps. Don't think less of yourself just because you're bowing tunes the same way time after time. Even the best players rely on such repetition because it's what works, and it allows them to focus on putting feeling into their playing. But try to tinker with your bowing too, trying new ideas even--especially!--if they don't feel comfortable at first.
In my experience, the two most important bowing options to have at hand are:
Be able to accent notes on an up bow as well as on a down bow.
Be able to switch smoothly at speed between long bow phrases and short bow phrases.
I worry alot about bowing the same way most of the time. And so far, even if I've worked out a new bowing pattern, when I get to the session I just revert back to the old one! Automatic pilot, I guess. When I do manage to keep a new bowing intact while at the session I'm sometimes so suprised and pleased it's all I can do to keep going. My inner critic is in my mind going "hey!! It worked! I did it! Wow!".
I'm not very good yet and hearing possibilities for variations like you outlined, Will. They just don't occur to me. The Slowdowner program is helping with that cuz I can now hear what Bobby Casey or whoever is doing differently each time through and try it out myself. It's like having an *extremely* patient teacher and all the time in the world.
I know it just takes time and repetition, and all will eventually fall into place. But it's helpful to have that reminder now and again from all of you further down the road. It keeps me from getting too impatient with myself
Careful listening, as you point out Christine, is essential, I think, for picking up ideas on how to refresh your bowing and playing in general. You want to listen to the point of saturation, so that when you "improvise" a new variation you can't honestly say whether it's original or just borrowed from someone else. I know, because that's where all of those above variations came from. They're not "mine" alone--they've been passed down through sessions, recordings, lessons, sheet music, abcs, etc., from lots of good players (and not only fiddlers).
And the type of listening you're doing is spot on--puzzling out what one player does different each time he or she turns the tune. This can really help unravel how an experienced, artful player understands and conveys the structure and intent of a tune. The better you grasp that, the better you'll play yourself.
Of course it doesn't hurt to listen to the same tune as played by lots of different players too, although I tend to think we learn more about "style" than structure that way. For example, take the opening of the reel Star of Munster:
K: A dorian (Fsharps)
ed|c2 Ac BAGB|AGEF GEDF|EAAG ABcd| etc.
Typical Sligo or Galway variations on this include:
ed|~c3A ~B3G|(3ABA GB AGED|EGAG ABcd| etc.
For a more Donegal feel, do the rolls as triplets:
|(3ccc cA (3BBB BG|
or move the second triplet off the down beat:
|cBAc AB (3BBB|
You could also use a moving triplet (slurred or single bowed):
ed|c2 (3ABc BAGB|cABG AGED|EAAG etc.
and look for other places to put the triplet:
|c2 Ac BA (3GAB|
I've heard Aly Bain do a nice "northern" version, all punchy single bow strokes:
ed|cece BdBd|AcAc GEED|EAAG etc.
And a slower, more lyrical Clare-like approach might go:
|Acec dBGB|cBAc BG (3DEF|EAGB ABcd| etc.
This kind of exercise lets me laugh whenever I hear someone complain of being bored with a tune. If you can do this much with a simple three bar passage.....
I also think that noodling on such variations helps me avoid getting stuck on one bowing approach. The purpose of the bowing becomes much more focused on producing the desired amount of lift and emphasis and rhythm, rather than mechanically getting through the stock melody.
Thanks for the encouragement and more helpful advice, Will. I swear I need to start copying and pasting some of your posts all in one place so I can refer to them frequently without having to comb through the archives! The Book of Will's Helpful Fiddling Hints. We could sell it and split the proceeds...*grin*.
What's funny is that I'm doing that myself, copying stuff from these threads into a folder on my hard drive. A wise author once advised aspiring writers to "write the kind of book you'd want on your own shelf." So there it is. And I even have a working title for it---The Session Player's Guide to Life: Words of Encouragement for Musicians. A lot of it would be appropriate for any instrument, but I imagine margin notes and maybe a separate chapter on fiddle topics (i.e., bowing).
The thing is, even I recognize that I'm better at explaining this stuff than at actually putting it all into practice. Rusty joints limit my playing time, so I'm not getting any more proficient. It's become completely a mental game for me now to slow the decline, and my playing is like life in general: hours and hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of stark terror.
So I get great solace knowing that my attempts to make sense of how this all works is sometimes helpful to others. And it's nothing more than passing along what I've learned from many generous, gifted people (or lifted surreptitiously from stingy--but still gifted--misanthropes .
At risk of offending the copyright attorneys yet again, I want to share some excerpts from an interview with Martin Hayes that ran in the Irish Times, August 29, 1998. The article was written by John Kelly. Every aspiring musician should read this, as a salve for those all-too-common frustrations.
John Kelly writes, “Martin Hayes…is unique among musicians in that he has the language and the intellectual focus with which to address the more mysterious aspects of creativity. His starting point is to accept words like mystery, magic, and muse as very real things.”
Now this is Martin talking: “A lot of older players kept talking to me about that sadness in the music, that dra
This is a great discussion and I believe some of the insights should be saved especially Will's second to last post with the example of variations for "The Star of Munster". I would, as Will might, throw in a little caution. The amount and variety of advice given here will almost certainly overwhelm a beginner.
If a player can't tell how he does a particular type of bowing it won't be of much use to anyone else and the same holds true for the player who insists that there is only one proper way to do something. The thing that I learned from Chris McGrath was to establish some basic ground rules ( I was actually completely re-learning how to bow) and apply them very strictly in practice, which should account for about 72% of your playing time. When you can pick up new tunes and apply the ground rules automatically then you have the mental space to begin altering the tune and if the variation crashes it at least it has the ground rules to fall back on allowing the TUNE to continue.
Is there anyway of setting up a page here to post tips likes Will's variation example and short essays on thing like recurrent patterns, etc.?
I took the liberty of editing Will's variations above and posting them to the tunes list under the name "A Measure In G,Will's Variations". I recommend ABCmus for playback and ABC filing. The MIDI options are pretty extensive and almost every aspect can be adjusted so the program will play ABC's the way you want to hear them and not just as a string of equal weight 1/8th notes. At $10.00 you can't beat the program.
Okay, Will. Sign me up for a copy of your book if you get it together and I will buy one from you. In the meantime, I'll just copy and paste....*sigh*. Er, I'm not trying to rush you or anything...
And I *promise* that if I ever get out to Montana and go to your session, I will not listen to you play and say...."but you said to do *this* in your book. How come you aren't doing that??" *grin*
Well, just got yelled at by Jeremy for posting fragments of tunes. So I guess that means that Will IS going to have to write his own book.
Jeremy,
Is there anyway to archive discussions according to topic so we could put stuff like this in generally accessible place? I know it would be just one more headache for you, but there is some decent information coming out here and there is obviously a sustained interest in the subject matter.
Hm. Well, if there's not something available here that works for what you guys want, I'll put up Will's "The Session Player's Guide to Life: Words of Encouragement for Musicians" on the SCTLS page of the SlowPlayers.org site if'n you guys want all the most memorable or helpful posts in one place with an index. (Electronic publishing, Will? *grin*) I don't promise it QUICKLY, but I could do it in dribs and drabs if you like.
The bowing hand of reason. The elusive lonesome touch. That is where it's at - quality not speed. Martin Hayes sometimes plays fast too, but always without compromising the feeling of the music. If only I had known this 40 years ago, but still I know it now. Thank you Will. You certainly said what I would have loved to have been able to say. Please put me on your mailing list for the new book!!
Cheers
That's all great stuff Will! Please keep posting! But, do you have any advice for people who want to play IRISH music? (Just taking the piss with ya Will!).
The less bow the better?
The less bow the better?
Again and again it occurs to me that I get the very best results with incredibly short bow strokes. For your information: I'm into Sligo/Clare fiddling; my great example is Kevin Burke. I always thought that you had to use rather long bow strokes for these styles, but my timing / subtle use of dynamics / overall speed greatly incraeses by keeping it short. I also like the sound, apart from a bit loss of volume. It is also more comfortable, you don't hav to press on the bow so much.
Am I going the wrong direction? Is keeping it short a 'sign of weakness' ?
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: The less bow the better?
I don't think its a weakness, one of my favourite players is Liz Carrol, and if you watch her play, she only uses a few inches at the tip of her bow except when she suddenly throws in a swooping long bow, for startling effect.
I tend to play in the top half of my bow, but it depends on the piece of music and the sound you are trying to get... would write more on the subject but am trying not to let my manager see me indulging in too much out of office work!!
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by jamiedj
Re: The less bow the better?
I've found that the faster the speed, the less bow I need to use. I wouldn't say this is a sign of weakness - it's just doing what works. It makes sense to me to use long bows for slow airs, and short bows for fast reels, jigs, etc. The faster the pace, the shorter the bow.
Jonathan.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Jonathan
Re: The less bow the better?
It really is all about style - I use shortish bow strokes - exept for the long ones
I'd say its really up to your own personal choice...as long as they arent really single and classical sounding 
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by bb
Re: The less bow the better?
I think experimenting is good, Henk.
Sometimes I use short bows. Sometimes I use long bows. Sometimes I switch bow direction when I change strings. Sometimes I cross-bow. On some tunes, especially tunes that spend lots of time down in the lower depths of the fiddle, I currently think it sounds great to use short bows dug down into the string (the fourth Bobby Casey's, for instance) near the frog. On tunes that move quickly, I tend to use short bows up by the tip. I always try to find the unexpected slur between notes, though, as coming from a classical background, I tend to slur in even groups, so it's a good exercise for me.
Tomorrow I may have changed my mind.
Zina
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
I have the same experiences with the bow. I usually stick to the upper half of the bow in any case. I believe that the better the bow, the more inclination you will have to use the entire bow. A good balance will do that to you.
On the Flip side, My Great Aunt would jump all over me for not using the entire bow. She was a classical instructor in her younger days. Now, she just likes to pick on me when I play fabulous music.
I believe that you should be comfortable using the entire bow. Other than that, Play the music the way it needs to be played.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: The less bow the better?
I'm the opposite - I play mainly with the bottom of the bow -but that is probably cause it is the worst bow in the entire world - and I'm not the only one who thinks so...eveyone says it. I'd say to keep the sound fresh - throw in a long bow every so often - dont want it to become boring (like my comments)
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by bb
Re: The less bow the better?
You have a whole bow, use it! Different types of tunes require different amounts of bow, its fine to use mainly short bow for fast reels but definitly not for slow tunes. Vary your bowing, it makes the fiddling sound more interesting. You have 4 strings and im sure you wouldnt consider not using one of them, the same goes for your bow, you have a long bow so you should make use of it. Think of it as a an extra dimension.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Wackadack
Re: The less bow the better?
Henk, if you like it, do it. You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about using the bow. That is the mark of a mature fiddler.
Keep it up.
For me, personally, I have made some big gains in my tone, over the past six months, by focussing on using longer bow strokes.
At my current stage, it gives me a steadier tone, a stronger tone, and a richer tone, and I need all the help I can get! :O) I also find that a longer stroke helps my timing, especially on string crossings and in jigs. I do play slower, and more deliberately with a longer stroke , jigs about 112 to 120, and reels 108 to 112 beats per minute. I find that I can get more expression in the tunes. However, most sessions like to play at quicker tempi than this, but then, I just shorten up the bow and follow along when I know the tunes.
Just another perspective...
Cheers,
Scott Donaldson
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: The less bow the better?
Doing my darnest not to contribute when I should be doing other urgent and terribly important things. But I've gotta push a tad of my two sence in this thread. I think variety is the spice. Short bows can sound great when they are smooth. I recon its in the attitude of the player: the approach to the music. If you take the time to be smooth you will naturally be fast (and have nice tone), but if you're rushing it ..... Arrh well! I for one wouldn't be hanging round!
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by Jill
Re: The less bow the better?
Short strokes a weakness?? Nah,,
I tend to use only the upper half of my bow on fast tunes with a lot of notes, one stroke for each note. Could be because I'm a former flatpicker I'm told. I use long strokes if I want to put in slurs, which for some of tunes that sounds better. Slower tunes generaly get a lot more bow out of me.
I'd say if it works for you, saw on short or long.
# Posted on May 31st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: The less bow the better?
I noticed that in all the dicussions no one has mentioned bow speed or pressure. Volume can be achieved by speed or pressure or a combination of the two. At speed there is no way to execute a bowed triplet with consistent volume and separation using a long stroke. The idea is give each note the proper amount of time and the proper emphasis, i.e variation in volume, which requires consant adjustment to all three elements: speed, pressure and stroke length.
All this is predicated on listening carefully to what is actually occurring and not assuming that any one-size-fits-all formula will produce musically valid outcome.
# Posted on June 2nd 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
Jill!
Whatcha talking about? It's all about maximum sound for minimum effort! Short bows are where it's at! So long as you leave the appropriate 'breath' between notes, it's all good. Otherwise, you get that 'frantic' sound we hear too often.
Slan
# Posted on June 2nd 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: The less bow the better?
Hi Caoimghgin
I've got a multi media package, three huge portfolios and some other things due on Friday, so I shouldn't be doing this - I really don't have the time. But can't resist!!!
I guess I'm not very good at explaining myself. What I mean is the really short little bows that you use in bowed triplets etc shouldn't be jerky they should be smooth - ripples. I tend to play bowed triplets instead of slurs and I know it works. Zina has talked about using different bowing patterns to create variations, so yes, sometimes you slur (longer bows) and sometimes you use separate bows, and change the patterns etc etc. Sometimes I do stuff like slurring into a role or drop in a cut or a cran. That's the spice, the variety.
Eons ago I made the (probably highly unoriginal) revelation that you slow the bow down (using less bow smoothly) to play faster and somehow it works (for me anyway) but you still keep the swing, the emphasis on the right notes and the smoothness of the melody. I am much less concerned with volume than tone (but my fiddle is naturally loud and has a nice sound).
Maybe someone else could explain it better than me (I am not an expert, only a very enthusiastic enthusiast) - or am I just a nut case that has some very warpo ideas?????????? I for one cannot stand that 'frantic' sound, and have been known to run a mile from it.
Does that clear the muddy waters? Or just increased the turbidity?
Now back to the pressing job at hand.
Cheers
# Posted on June 2nd 2002 by Jill
Re: The less bow the better?
Caoimghgan,
The way you state it I get the impression that your approach favors quantity over quality. Paraphrasing what I think Jill was getting, each note or phrase or ornament occuppies a precise amount of time in relation to the other elements around it. A roll can be addressed in a variety of ways as long as it fits properly into the time space allotted for it.
The amount of bow used for each element is determined by the element in relation to what comes next. If, for example, you play a 1-down, 3-up slur pattern the down-bow has to travel the same distance as the up-bow in one third the time to keep it in the right place. The increased speed, assuming the pressure remains constant, gives that one 1/8th note three times as much bow as the the others. The result is an accent without getting your bow jammed up at one end or the other, requiring a frantic recovery. This kind of bow management allows for a more natural pulse to be imparted to the tune and gives more control over the choices you have available for variation.
If the main idea is volume and speed, have you consider highland pipes?
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
Nah, I think I know what Kevin is saying, and he's not advocating quantity over quality, I don't think. He just happens to really like short bowing.
Right now, for instance, I'm experimenting with crunchy bowed triplets rather than smoother ones, especially single note triplets -- first off, my bowing work isn't terribly good on the mvoing triplets, so that's not there yet anyway, but also I don't like the crunchy sound on them nearly as much. I don't think they're going to stay as crunchy and raspy as they are now, but I wanted to try an extreme before I got to the middle.
It all works -- it's just a question of what works for you right now at this time, and it can change according to your fancy on any given day or period of playing.
Funnily enough, AOG, I've never noted speed as an issue amongst highland pipers. In the world of Irish dancers, dancing reels with highland pipes feels very very slow, although the jigs are often the right speed for Irish. Volume now...lots of volume!
Chris, didja ever go back to listen to the paste-you-to-the-walls highland pipers session?
Zina
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
Zina, no, I never did. And now our Wednesdays are busy with a band my husband and brother are in. I get my once a month session and stay as late as I like and in return I go and support the band rehearsals. It's one of those husband/wife trade-offs we had a thread about earlier! However, I have a bead on a new-to-me session that I might go check out this Sunday.
I'm still fascinated by the crunchy triplet sound but I have smoothed out my rolls some. It was hard to un-do the speed-up-bow-and-increase-pressure trick though! I remember someone (Will, Kevin G?) saying it could take 10 years to get the rolls right though so I'm *trying* to be patient
As far a bow use goes, I'm in a short-as-possible- phase right now but AOG's comments about "bow management" sure hit home! I've been messing around a lot with the 1 down 3 up pattern and I sure can get in a lot of trouble very quickly. But I feel like I'm really *learning* now instead of just playing any which way. Frantic recoveries are to be expected for a bit, I guess!
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
I still can't get over only sessioning once a month, Chris...of course, right now I'm only doing my slow session, which seems like little to me, but we've also got rehearsals in there once a week, so it's not so bad. But I really need to get out so I dont feel so provincial, musically speaking. Maybe I'll have more time this summer. (Hah.)
I'm still working on getting the rolls right. Right now I'd say I'm about at 70% proper rolls with all five notes in and pulling away properly with the right feel. The others just deserve the little "I suck" balloon over them. *grin*
After that, the goal is the bowed moving triplets.
But I am really having fun with the scratchy, dug-down-into-the-string short bowing. Pat O'Connor does a great version of Bobby Casey's that he actually tunes down for so that he has (I would assume) more bounce and grit to the sound (or maybe he was just flat and liked it and kept it for the recording, I dunno), and it's inspired me to try and dig down into that myself for a while.
But I've found myself starting to really listen to the smoother stuff recently too, so that may be signalling a change.
Zina
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
Just a caution. It's tempting to think in mathematical terms as AOG has, and bowing patterns do sometimes work that way, but I think it's dangerous to assume that a bow stroke in one direction *has* to equal out the following strokes. In AOG's example of a down bow followed by three notes on an up bow, for instance, the down bow could be longer or shorter than the following 3-slur up bow, depending on (1) how you want to phrase that passage and (2) where you want to end up on the bow. In other words, the length of your bow stroke is determined by other choices, not by a w = x+y+z equation.
For instance, if I'm trying to work down toward the frog, my down bow in these situations will likely be shorter than subsequent up bows. You can accomplish this by decreasing bow speed or stopping the stroke on the down bow, or by increasing bow speed on the up bow. Or you can use some other combination of down and up bows to get there. Or you can lift the hair off the string and replant the bow closer to the frog.
In short, there are lots of variables that allow us to move around on the stick (or stay roughly in the same section of stick) without worrying too much about equal or unequal bow strokes. Instead, how we move the bow is mostly decided by what we want to do to the length and tone and volume, etc. of each note, while anticpating the line of notes ahead. It's like playing billiards--you have to think ahead to leave the cue ball where you want it, depending on how you want to play the next shot. Except that when I'm playing fiddle, I don't really "calculate" where I'm going...it's more effective to decide what "mood" I want to give the notes ahead and let body language do the rest.
What all this boils down to for me is that bow direction, speed, pressure, length, etc., are all determined on the fly based on what emotion or meaning I want to give to the *sound.* In my mind, I don't worry about whether it all evens out in the end--that basically takes care of itself.
I like Kevin Burke's mental approach to all this--bowing is simple: you're either going up or down. Just keep the hair side facing the strings.
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
Will is right about the variations, but that goes to the point of the context in which the particular element appears. I was giving as simplified an example as possible to introduce the concept of concious bow management as opposed to short versus long stroke simplification.
I find that for practice it is easier to achieve controlled variation if I start from a systematic basis. For years I just had at the fiddle with some hideous cat-skinning results, but when I began to work on concious systematic bowing (under the tutelage of Chris McGrath) I made more progress in one year in sound production, tune retention, and style than I had in the last fifteen.
The short version is that you can't really go where the spirit moves if you don't know where you're starting from.
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
AOG, I think we agree (and I certainly agree that when you're first learning, it helps to be consciously grounded in all aspects of using the bow, so you can eventually be free of all that focus on technique). But I wasn't talking about bowing variations, but *variables*--all the possible ways (length, speed, pressure, etc.) to get what you want out of the bow. I agree that it takes years of conscious, rapt attention to those details before you can just wing it and get good results. I just think we're better off if we don't let that stifle our urge to explore the various possibilities and that we shouldn't worry too much about the fractal symmetry of our efforts. But maybe that's because I already tend to overanalyze everything.... grin.
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
I don't think, Zina, that I'm nearly as high energy as you seem to be! But since I've scaled back my sessioning, I've seen some real improvement in my playing. I think the weekly session just had me cramming tunes into my head as fast as possible and not working on technique at *all*. I couldn't seem to manage both. Now, I think I might be able to, hence the upcoming visit to a new session!
Yeah, some days my rolls are ok, some days the balloon goes up. *But*, not doing the bow trick I mentioned, just letting my left hand do the work has made it seem easier. I think Will pointed that out before. But I have to ask you....what are "bowed moving triplets"?
I *have* noticed that now that I'm using shorter bows when I can, my speed has improved. But I don't want to sound "frantic"...but not dirge-y, either. Where *is* that happy medium, darn it?? Where is that Fractal Symmetry? Heh. Another tune name, Will!
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
Fiddle, fiddle burning bright
in the session of the night
What immortal hand or eye
could frame thy fractal symmetry....
Moving bowed triplets, Christine, are triplets that are single bowed AND that move from one pitch to one or two more. They blur by just as quickly as a "normal" bowed triplet, but your left hand has some fast fingering to do to keep up. For example:
|eA (3cBA where (3cBA is bowed down-up-down or up-down-up.
or (3 Bcd or (3BBA or (3ccd etc.
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Will Harmon
*groan*
And I thought the bit of Latin doggerel was bad... hehe..
Yup, Will defined it. And that's why mine suck quite so badly -- poor bowing technique blended with lack of practise. Heigh ho.
Zina
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Moving bowed triplets, bad poetry
Ohhh. I didn't know that technique had a name. Thanks! I meant to start practicing those. Ooops
They're tooooo haaaarrrrd *whine*....Are they associated with a particular style? It seems like I either (A) haven't heard them used much or (B) aren't listening carefully enough.
I liked both the Latin doggerel and the Blake-ian doggerel, myself! But then one of my favorite books is Poetry for Cats, which is famous poems written from a cat's perspective. Easy to amuse, that's me, ohh yeah...
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
heehee, Chris...Ryan Shannon (his mother's name is actually Shannon Shannon, believe it or else) is our resident young (nine or ten) hotshot at the SCTLS -- he started in Suzuki, and he can pick up the tunes almost as fast as Dirk.
He usually does single-bowed moving triplets, and a couple weeks ago I told him (especially since he's coming from a Scottish music background and moving to the Irish) that he should try the moving bowed triplets in a tune I was teaching him...and that's EXACTLY what he said about them! Whine and all. *grin*
I don't know if the moving bowed triplets are associated with a particular style. I've heard Donegal, Clare, and Sligo players all use them now, and it's all over the US, but don't know if that's because they happen to like them or if it's an overall Irish music thing. I'm sure someone else does, though...anyone?
Zina
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
It all depends on the phrase your playing doesn't it? I know some folks like to play the top of the bow & others play almost at the frog. I myself take the Buddha aproach & go the middle way - I stay in the middle of the bow, for little cross bowed phrases like D2 ADBD AD | I'll use short bows (at the tip or in the middle, if I do it too close to the frog it gets scratchy), but for a long note I go from frog to tip. It all depends on what needs to be played. All in all don't worry about your bowing unless it's tripping you up, just do what comes naturally to bring out the swing. Or try to at least 72% of the time.
# Posted on June 4th 2002 by B Rad
Re: The less bow the better?
Well, I discovered during practice last night that I was already doing them (er, attemping them) in a polka set I play. And I usually hit them some where near the middle of the bow. So I started trying to put them where ever I'd normally put a one bow moving triplet. Makes for an interesting change. But wow, they really are tricky! Rolls aren't hard enough...Ohhhh nnnnooo! Heh. Back to dirge tempo to get those puppies.
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
I think I mentioned this before on another thread, but you can make a reasonable argument for slurring triplets that run up in pitch (e.g., (3Bcd ) and single-bowing triplets than run down (e.g., (3cBA ) because the "hammer on" effect of pouncing on the higher notes as you go up helps articulate the triplet. Coming off the string as you go down in pitch does not have the same effect, so it's often useful to add some pop with the bow. Of course that doesn't mean that you shouldn't single bow those uphill triplets--go with what your ear tells you.
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
I'm going to jump in and disagree with Brad, but then he wouldn't expect otherwise.
BTW, Brad's son, Brendan, at 15 months, can sit through an entire session with a smile on his face. He seemed to have some aversion to the tin whistle, though, since he kept throwing it on the floor.
Anyway, I digress, you have to worry about your bowing all the time since it is the sole source of for the production of sound. If the bow isn't doing what you want it to it makes almost no difference what you do with the left hand because the sound produced will be a hit or miss proposition. It would kind of be like singing without knowing whether you were breathing in or out when you tried to produce a note.
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
When I said that I ment that you should learn your bowing like you learn to breath. If you have to have to make a concerted effort to inhale & exhale everytime you take a breath - than you'd better not get distracted. Same with bowing - it should be second nature. There should be some thought put in to it, but it shouldn't be your only concern when your playing the fiddle. Unless your playing the highland pipes where you need to worry about the bowing exactly 72% of time.
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by B Rad
Re: The less bow the better?
Has it really been 15 months since Brendan was born? Yipes. Time flies when you're having.
I wonder...it's been a long time now since I first learned to play a violin (and almost immediately gave it up for a viola, because I was offended by my own squeaks and squawks -- I believe I was in the second or third grade at the time, and it took me 'til three years ago now to go back to the violin), and I'm trying to remember the various "chapters" of learning bowing.
There's that period when you first pick up the thing, and it feels incredibly awkward and un-natural and most of your energy is spent trying to hold up the fiddle (rather than standing underneath it, as per Will's wonderful quote). You scowl at the bow, trying to keep the thing moving on the right track at the right angle. The mysteries of cross bowing and such confuse and frustrate you on a regular basis. You work at gaining speed and coordination between hands, learn about things like staccato bowing and long bows
Then you finally "get" the idea of how to bow in a basic sense, and move on to things like relaxing the arm/wrist/hand, and bow speed and pressure. You also start working on the fine points of coordinating right hand with left, etc.
Then you start working on those little niggling bits, each fiddler to their own specialized little foibles.
And somewhere in there, you decide to change something basic, and start all over again more than once.
Like many things, it seems that most of the effort is up front, which doesn't seem fair somehow, but there you are. And at this vantage point now, it seems like I start all over again every other week.
Yet I know exactly what both AOG and Brad mean -- bowing, like talking, is second nature to me. I had to learn how to talk, and I still find out new things about words and vocabulary and vocal production and what my voice can and can't do, yet I don't really think about it until I discover that there's something I want to do that I don't know how to do or that my hands won't yet do what my head and ear wants them to. Bowing IS terribly important, and deserves your attention to detail and practising at, and yet at the same time you should be striving to get to the point where it's just a natural part of your playing.
Oh god, I'd better get a move on, we go into the studio today, and I have a dress to finish before then.
Zina
# Posted on June 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
I find if i dont think about bowing, then i tend to play the tune through with the same bowing patterns all the time.
is this a phase or should i seek psychiatric help. or more seriously what are others experience on this one.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by donnchad
Re: The less bow the better?
it is a tough one isnt it - I would say you should try and work on it - play totally different patterns & ornaments, try to change the tune every time you play it and eventually you will never think about it - it will just happen. I had a girl come up to me in a session last night, who had obviously been classically trained (she studied at peabodies???)anyhow - she could not get over the way I played, held the bow, held the fiddle etc. She was really interested and asked all kinds of questions like how did I hold the bow & how did I work the bow etc - and I honestly couldnt answer. It struck me I sounded quite rude because I was sitting there saying I didnt really know what i did, as if I was a musician who didnt want to give up the secrets. But my point is - I just dont think about it anymore at all - obviously I did at one stage, and I worked at it. At that time I put all my effort into doing different bowing patterns every time I played a tune. Dont suppose this has been much help - I tend to state the obvious - sorry
)
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: The less bow the better?
No its a start, thanks. it sems to be that whereas the "tradition" is that fiddler's spontaneously do variations each tome they play is wrong caus you need to have worked out in advance the bowing posibilites and whether they are okay? does this sound right or do some players innovate as they go along (this too seems possible) but is of a higher order than i have reached as yet. then again also if you play the tune holding certain notes longer or with jagged triplets or running triplets, these variations would allow different bowing patterns to creepin.
sometimes i wake up to what i'm doing (and some tunes lend themselves to this more than others) i realise i'm playing one down followed by three up measure after measure.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by donnchad
Re: The less bow the better?
no - I didnt mean work it out in advanced, a good fiddle player is spontaneous - you can see in in their playing. All I meant was that the more you practice doing things differently you wont even have to think about it anymore - you will just be doing loads of things off the top of your head and you wont even notice. I never play the tune the same way - but I dont work it out or anything at home - if I put a bowed triplet in or a roll or a cut - you can be sure that I thought of doing it a nano second before I did it. No great thought goes into what I am playing - it just happens......do I sound as confusing to you as I do to myself??
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by bb
Re: The less bow the better?
you sound like someone who had the great benefit of hearing the music from early on or else has become totally immersed in it. im more of a an enthusiastic dilletante which probably explains why its still not totally natural
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by donnchad
Re: The less bow the better?
Ah, little grasshopper, bowing is not a destination but a journey with no clear path. Follow your bliss. *Grin and Groan.*
Looking back on it, I've gone through many stages with bowing, sort of the way Zina describes it. At first I just struggled with the basics ("up" and "down"). Then I learned a few simple approaches to dealing with the common bowing challenges of jigs, reels, and polkas. Not much variety in my bowing at that stage, and I went for years basically playing tunes the same way over and over again. But also during that time I was smoothing out rolls and triplets, gradually expanding my bag of tricks, and improving tone and rhythm. Some of the tricks would force me to revisit my bowing and try something different. Or I'd hear another fiddler do something new and work it out, learning new bowing ideas in the process. Or a new tune would throw a new bowing problem at me to solve.
Through all of this, I think what happens is that you eventually have a whole menu of ornaments, phrasing options, melodic and rhythmic variations, etc. at the ready when you launch into a tune. You've done all these things so many times that they become automatic and can be inserted wherever you hear an opportunity. At first, this happens mostly in "familiar" spots--say you play a reel with the common phrase of |G2 BG dGBG|. You'll instantly know that you could choose any of the following variations the next time around:
|DGBG dGBG|
|(3GGG BG dGBG|
|G~B3 dGBG|
|GABG dGBG|
|G2 BG DGBG|
|G2 BG (3Bcd BG|
|G2 (3BAG dGBG|
|~G3B d2 BG|
|GBAc BdBG|
and so on.
Of course, each of these variations brings with it a number of different bowing options, adding even more potential for variety in your playing. And the next phrase will also have it's possibilities, with otpions on how to combine the two phrases (which will also influence your bowing choices).
At first, I tried to take one thing at a time. It helped to practice such variations and choose a set way to bow them before breaking them out at a session, but pretty soon they were leaping uninvited (but quite welcome) into my playing, even into places I would not have planned to put them. And the bowing started to take care of itself.
So a couple of years ago, I felt like I topped a major plateau when I realized that I could get through tunes--even tricky spots--without worrying about whether my bow was doing the "right" thing. Even if I ended up bowing something completely "backwards" from how I'd done it before, the tune kept going, at least long enough for me to find the groove again. And ornaments and variations started blooming in surprising places, so surprising I'd sometimes go back over the tune more slowly to try and figure out what I'd just done so I could remember to use it again, or in other tunes.
I'm fairly convinced that all of this comes from two things: (1) repetition of the 1,000 or so possibilities until they're all comfortable, and then they start appearing in new combinations. Within the ITM tradition, on fiddle, there's a fairly short list of bowing and left-hand options, but an exponentially longer list of ways to combine them. And I think that's how most fiddlers progress--they master the short list, and then begin exploring the longer list.
And (2) playing with other people, particularly in sessions. Necessity really is the mother of invention, and if you want your bowing and playing to be inventive (rather than predictable), then you have to play in situations where you'll be forced to try something new at tempo. Sessions are great for this. They are breeding grounds for new tunes, old tunes in new ways, and uninhibited, inebriated explorations not possible sober and alone at home.
God, what a rambler I am. I hope this helps. Don't think less of yourself just because you're bowing tunes the same way time after time. Even the best players rely on such repetition because it's what works, and it allows them to focus on putting feeling into their playing. But try to tinker with your bowing too, trying new ideas even--especially!--if they don't feel comfortable at first.
In my experience, the two most important bowing options to have at hand are:
Be able to accent notes on an up bow as well as on a down bow.
Be able to switch smoothly at speed between long bow phrases and short bow phrases.
Now I'm back to work.....
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
I worry alot about bowing the same way most of the time. And so far, even if I've worked out a new bowing pattern, when I get to the session I just revert back to the old one! Automatic pilot, I guess. When I do manage to keep a new bowing intact while at the session I'm sometimes so suprised and pleased it's all I can do to keep going. My inner critic is in my mind going "hey!! It worked! I did it! Wow!".
I'm not very good yet and hearing possibilities for variations like you outlined, Will. They just don't occur to me. The Slowdowner program is helping with that cuz I can now hear what Bobby Casey or whoever is doing differently each time through and try it out myself. It's like having an *extremely* patient teacher and all the time in the world.
I know it just takes time and repetition, and all will eventually fall into place. But it's helpful to have that reminder now and again from all of you further down the road. It keeps me from getting too impatient with myself
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
Careful listening, as you point out Christine, is essential, I think, for picking up ideas on how to refresh your bowing and playing in general. You want to listen to the point of saturation, so that when you "improvise" a new variation you can't honestly say whether it's original or just borrowed from someone else. I know, because that's where all of those above variations came from. They're not "mine" alone--they've been passed down through sessions, recordings, lessons, sheet music, abcs, etc., from lots of good players (and not only fiddlers).
And the type of listening you're doing is spot on--puzzling out what one player does different each time he or she turns the tune. This can really help unravel how an experienced, artful player understands and conveys the structure and intent of a tune. The better you grasp that, the better you'll play yourself.
Of course it doesn't hurt to listen to the same tune as played by lots of different players too, although I tend to think we learn more about "style" than structure that way. For example, take the opening of the reel Star of Munster:
K: A dorian (Fsharps)
ed|c2 Ac BAGB|AGEF GEDF|EAAG ABcd| etc.
Typical Sligo or Galway variations on this include:
ed|~c3A ~B3G|(3ABA GB AGED|EGAG ABcd| etc.
For a more Donegal feel, do the rolls as triplets:
|(3ccc cA (3BBB BG|
or move the second triplet off the down beat:
|cBAc AB (3BBB|
You could also use a moving triplet (slurred or single bowed):
ed|c2 (3ABc BAGB|cABG AGED|EAAG etc.
and look for other places to put the triplet:
|c2 Ac BA (3GAB|
I've heard Aly Bain do a nice "northern" version, all punchy single bow strokes:
ed|cece BdBd|AcAc GEED|EAAG etc.
And a slower, more lyrical Clare-like approach might go:
|Acec dBGB|cBAc BG (3DEF|EAGB ABcd| etc.
This kind of exercise lets me laugh whenever I hear someone complain of being bored with a tune. If you can do this much with a simple three bar passage.....
I also think that noodling on such variations helps me avoid getting stuck on one bowing approach. The purpose of the bowing becomes much more focused on producing the desired amount of lift and emphasis and rhythm, rather than mechanically getting through the stock melody.
Cheers,
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
*sigh* Will, when I grow up (if I ever grow up), can I be you?
Off to teach class now...
Zina
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
Thanks for the encouragement and more helpful advice, Will. I swear I need to start copying and pasting some of your posts all in one place so I can refer to them frequently without having to comb through the archives! The Book of Will's Helpful Fiddling Hints. We could sell it and split the proceeds...*grin*.
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
Blush, blush, curtsey.
.
What's funny is that I'm doing that myself, copying stuff from these threads into a folder on my hard drive. A wise author once advised aspiring writers to "write the kind of book you'd want on your own shelf." So there it is. And I even have a working title for it---The Session Player's Guide to Life: Words of Encouragement for Musicians. A lot of it would be appropriate for any instrument, but I imagine margin notes and maybe a separate chapter on fiddle topics (i.e., bowing).
The thing is, even I recognize that I'm better at explaining this stuff than at actually putting it all into practice. Rusty joints limit my playing time, so I'm not getting any more proficient. It's become completely a mental game for me now to slow the decline, and my playing is like life in general: hours and hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of stark terror.
So I get great solace knowing that my attempts to make sense of how this all works is sometimes helpful to others. And it's nothing more than passing along what I've learned from many generous, gifted people (or lifted surreptitiously from stingy--but still gifted--misanthropes
At risk of offending the copyright attorneys yet again, I want to share some excerpts from an interview with Martin Hayes that ran in the Irish Times, August 29, 1998. The article was written by John Kelly. Every aspiring musician should read this, as a salve for those all-too-common frustrations.
John Kelly writes, “Martin Hayes…is unique among musicians in that he has the language and the intellectual focus with which to address the more mysterious aspects of creativity. His starting point is to accept words like mystery, magic, and muse as very real things.”
Now this is Martin talking: “A lot of older players kept talking to me about that sadness in the music, that dra
# Posted on June 6th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: The less bow the better?
This is a great discussion and I believe some of the insights should be saved especially Will's second to last post with the example of variations for "The Star of Munster". I would, as Will might, throw in a little caution. The amount and variety of advice given here will almost certainly overwhelm a beginner.
If a player can't tell how he does a particular type of bowing it won't be of much use to anyone else and the same holds true for the player who insists that there is only one proper way to do something. The thing that I learned from Chris McGrath was to establish some basic ground rules ( I was actually completely re-learning how to bow) and apply them very strictly in practice, which should account for about 72% of your playing time. When you can pick up new tunes and apply the ground rules automatically then you have the mental space to begin altering the tune and if the variation crashes it at least it has the ground rules to fall back on allowing the TUNE to continue.
Is there anyway of setting up a page here to post tips likes Will's variation example and short essays on thing like recurrent patterns, etc.?
# Posted on June 7th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
I took the liberty of editing Will's variations above and posting them to the tunes list under the name "A Measure In G,Will's Variations". I recommend ABCmus for playback and ABC filing. The MIDI options are pretty extensive and almost every aspect can be adjusted so the program will play ABC's the way you want to hear them and not just as a string of equal weight 1/8th notes. At $10.00 you can't beat the program.
# Posted on June 7th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
Okay, Will. Sign me up for a copy of your book if you get it together and I will buy one from you. In the meantime, I'll just copy and paste....*sigh*. Er, I'm not trying to rush you or anything...
And I *promise* that if I ever get out to Montana and go to your session, I will not listen to you play and say...."but you said to do *this* in your book. How come you aren't doing that??" *grin*
Thanks, AOG. That's great!
# Posted on June 7th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: The less bow the better?
Well, just got yelled at by Jeremy for posting fragments of tunes. So I guess that means that Will IS going to have to write his own book.
Jeremy,
Is there anyway to archive discussions according to topic so we could put stuff like this in generally accessible place? I know it would be just one more headache for you, but there is some decent information coming out here and there is obviously a sustained interest in the subject matter.
# Posted on June 7th 2002 by AOG
Re: The less bow the better?
Hm. Well, if there's not something available here that works for what you guys want, I'll put up Will's "The Session Player's Guide to Life: Words of Encouragement for Musicians" on the SCTLS page of the SlowPlayers.org site if'n you guys want all the most memorable or helpful posts in one place with an index. (Electronic publishing, Will? *grin*) I don't promise it QUICKLY, but I could do it in dribs and drabs if you like.
Zina
# Posted on June 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: The less bow the better?
The bowing hand of reason. The elusive lonesome touch. That is where it's at - quality not speed. Martin Hayes sometimes plays fast too, but always without compromising the feeling of the music. If only I had known this 40 years ago, but still I know it now. Thank you Will. You certainly said what I would have loved to have been able to say. Please put me on your mailing list for the new book!!
Cheers
# Posted on June 9th 2002 by Jill
Re: The less bow the better?
That's all great stuff Will! Please keep posting! But, do you have any advice for people who want to play IRISH music? (Just taking the piss with ya Will!).
# Posted on June 9th 2002 by Caoimghgin