I'd like to record sessions to learn tunes. As a complete beginner I find listening to slowed-down recordings helpful in practicing & learning faster tunes. I understand from browsing previous discussions that there are tape recorders that do this as well as higher-sound-quality and more versatile digital options such as MP3 recorders and MiniDisc recorders. I have already found in the discussions database a useful free computer program for slowing down MP3s of commercial recordings at proper pitch, but was unable to find an archived discussion that answered my current question and was also up-to-date. What are the best current options, with pros and cons, for recording sessions/practicing etc. in the several technology niches (i.e. tape recorder, mp3 recorder, what have you?)
Also, is variable-speed playback basically not important to get in peoples' experience? Is it only a crutch for beginners and not worth messing with?
Cheapest option I found was a Panasonic digital dictation-type recorder, about $90 Canadian (What's that now, like $300US?) It came with software to transfer segments onto your computer as wav files. The quality is good enough for transcribing, and it will capture a couple of hours of music.
Will submitted a passionate argument once in favour of not using slowdowners, and I saw his point. However, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...I think the happy medium is to make sure the tune is well and truly stuck in your head before you transcribe (slowdowner or otherwise.)
The format for MadForTrad CDrom tutorials is usually a basic set of tunes, sheet music and video at various speeds. It is a great format for learning. Of course, nothing can replace real sessions. If you have a group that regularly gets together and you want to stretch what you are doing with new tunes or get more fluent with what you are doing, a few informal sessions at someone's house with refreshments, family, kids, etc... works out well.
Ive being playing for a long time now, and I would say that recording sessions is great. Any time I`ve had to record something in the studio, I found that walking everywhere with my mp3 player was the best thing in the world for getting a rake of tunes into your head, before you sat down to learn them. Of course a simple way of approaching it would be to, record your regular session not forgetting to ask for as many tune names as you can, and if you are still missing phrases of the tunes you could always look them up in the music books.
The plus side to this way of learning is that you will get the opportunity to hear yourself in all your glory, and constructively critisize your playing. Not as scary as it sounds, it really makes you tighten up your technique and improves your playing no end.
here is my position for slowing down. listen to the tune as many times as possible, and then learn it at full speed. if there are notes you seem to be missing, slow it down to get those, but dont learn all of it slow. always use it as a last resort, so eventually you wont have to do it often.
whenever i use slow down on my minidisc, i learn how a new interval sounds sped up. sometimes something sounds one note down when it is up / etc to an untrained ear, and by careful use of slow down you can train your ear not to need it. as a tool it is great, as a crutch it is no good.
Slow down isn`t going to help in the long run. I`m afraid the only thing to do is get the head down and familiarise yourself with as many different types of tunes as you can, music is a bit like a language, if you dont improve your vocabulary you`re going to run across things that dont translate.
Good point, Rea, also; you have to be careful about duplicating exactly what the loudest player in the session happened to be playing at that moment. Sometimes people, no matter how advanced, might be making a chronic mistake they didn't intend to, or they don't quite have that tune down, or they're confusing the B part with another tune, or turn-around etc. There will also be details that come out in a recording of a session that weren't being played on any particular instrument but are instead a combination of two or more instruments. I know you're probably saying, "That's all very fine and good Mr. Gilder, but what are we supposed to do about it?" The answer lies in what Rea was talking about.
Excellent observation Jack. Playing with the same musicians or alternatively in what may be your case 2ndfiddler, listening to the same players, has its own pitfalls. You should strive to play the version of the tune that is the highest common denominator. Later when you are more confident you can start playing around with the phrases. An easy way of doing this would be to learn the basics of the tune and leave ornamention out. Dont worry about how fancy you can make the tune sound with the abilities you have at the moment. Concentrate instead on being able to play with others. You`ll pick up techniques and tricks along the way, by listening and also observing what the other musicians are doing. It is a team sport after all!
I used a MiniDisc recorder (borrowed from a friend) and a couple of Crown Soundgrabber pressure zone microphones to record a couple sessions. Unfortunately, MiniDisc uses a proprietary compression algorithm (not MP3) and has no way of transferring digital audio to a computer. So, to get the stereo audio data from the MiniDisc into the computer, I connected the MiniDisc line-out into an analogue line-in jack on my PC soundcard with an 1/8" stereo cable. Then I played the MiniDisc and recorded the audio on the PC with MultiTrackStudio (the free Lite version from http://www.multitrackstudio.com). After a little fading in and out applied at the start and end of each track I have a decent library of tunes.
It's not a purely digital signal chain but the recordings turned out quite good and have been extremely useful for myself and many other learners.
Rea & Jack, I'm not sure if you're saying there's no place at all for learning the tunes from session recordings.
If you are, I'd (with my limited experience, of course) have to disagree. I think it's a great way to "learn the basics of the tune". Then you bring it back to your session and learn to play it with the "team." Especially helpful if real life doesn't allow you to attend five sessions a week.
We recently purchased the MiniDisc and love it except for the completely annoying proprietary constraints.
If you just want to record things and play them back on the same unit, then it is great. If you want to share music, make CDs or anything like that, they rot.
And on the subject of slow downs. I had a tape deck that would slow things down and it never really did me any good. With hindsight, I am glad I never got addicted to it. Listening to things over and over again not only enables you to learn the tune, it also educates your ear over time.
Grego wrote: "Rea & Jack, I'm not sure if you're saying there's no place at all for learning the tunes from session recordings." That's not what I was saying at all, Grego, sessions and recordings of sessions are a great way to learn tunes and make sure you're getting the version that your local sessioneers play. I was just pointing out that because it is a session -- not to take it too literally. I'm reviewing tunes from a session tape I brought back from Ireland right now, as a matter of fact, and my process involves finding other sources of the tune (if possible) and comparing it to what I'm hearing on the tape. My setting ends up being what I hear on the tape tempered by what I find out about the tune. It's part of the "language" Rea was alluding to I think.
Part of my reasoning against slow-downer stuff is that music *is* a language and you want to get used to hearing it with the timing and inflections at their normal speed. Imagine trying to learn a foreign language slowed down half speed. You'd end up sounding like a barbituate overdose. I didn't realize how significant this could be until I used the variable speed function on Windows Media Player and could barely recognize a fiddle roll for what it was. At normal speed, everything was clear as a bell.
That said, I support the idea of slowing a tune down to learn it, but I still advocate for learning how to do this in your own head. Turns out we humans have the beta version of slow down software right between our own ears. Once you know a tune well, you should find that you can play it back in your mind's ear (or audibly lilt it) at whatever speed you want, without changing pitch. So you can peg a tune into your memory by listening to it repeatedly (week after week at a session, or from a normal speed recording), and then let your mind go through the notes in slow motion. This is also a good way to work out your own variations, without even having your instrument in hand.
(FWIW, to slow down a tune in Windows Media Player, download the sound file you want to listen to. You can copy it off a cd or download any soundfile off the web. Then go to the menu bar in WMP, click on View, scroll down to Enhancements, and click on Play Speed Settings--this pops up a playback scale that lets you vary the speed without changing pitch. Alternately, you can right click anywhere on the WMP screen and scroll down to Play Speed Settings--it will give you the choice of Fast, Normal, or Slow. "Slow" is half speed, normal pitch.)
Grego if you had read all the comments you may have seen the section where I say that is one of the aids I use. What Jack and I are saying is that , Irish music comes from an oral tradition. It is passed through the generations purely by regurgitation. The tunes are built for this purpose. Coming from a long line of musicians and singers, I am shocked that an Irish person would assume that the music was so 1 dimensional. Open your mind grego and if youre going to play the music why dont you consider the history at the same time. I guarantee the more you associate with real live musicians the quicker and better your progression will be.
P.S To be clear, the WMP slowdowner won't work just playing straight off a cd. You have to copy the track or sound file into your media library in Windows Media Player. Then click on that file to highlight it, and then follow the directions above.
The steps for getting the same results in your own mind are much simpler...
I didn't hear grego imply that the music is one dimensional. He said he uses recordings to "learn the basics of the tune." Which no doubt then allows him to play it with the same live musicians he recorded it from.
When it comes to taking your place in the hand and mouth to ear chain of Irish music, life in the middle of no where (central North America) is a little different than in Belfast. We do learn directly from other players, but out of necessity also rely on less personal media. Which is also widely done in Ireland, hear tell.
I have the Amazing Slow Downer but I've never used it. In fact, I almost never learn a tune by listening piecemeal, over and over. It's not that I'm against it, I'm just too lazy to do that much work. I listen to a tune I like until one day it's in my head well enough to start trying to play it. It doesn't often come out exactly like the recording, but that's okay. I guess. Isn't it?
Sometimes I start playing a tune long after the last time I heard it and surprise myself by how much I've folk processed it in my head. I learned Maybelle Carter's Victory Rag that way and when I realized how much I had changed it, I decided to change the title. To give it more of a local flavor and a bit of irrational optimism, I call it Victory Over Kudzu.
Right, but it was a nice mental image. Myself, I prefer standing *on* the corner, cradling my brown paper bag, watching the girls go by....huh? What? Was I dreaming? I didn't talk in my sleep did I?
Stand in front of the chalk board instead, Grego, and be sure to put your nose in the circle. If you don't behave you'll end up in the principle's office like Conan and Bannerman did in the tunes section.
The main thing I use my session recordings for is to discover what sounds good and what sucks. Particular what I was drunk enough to think sounded great at the time that REALLY sucks the next day. There's WAY more of this stuff than used to think.
Here are my top discoveries with regards to things that suck:
1: Coming in all sloppy the instant I recognize the tune.
2: Rushing it.
3: My intonation, 90 per cent of the time.
4: My ornamentation (see "rushing it").
5: Tacking my set onto the end of someone else's set.
6: Bodhrans, spoons, and bones, 90 per cent of the time. (sorry guys).
7: Excessive foot tapping. (The Quebecois guys are exempt from this, of course).
8: The noisy drunks yelling at each other in the background.
9: Stop & start, crash & burn guitar playing.
10: Anything played after the 5 pint mark.
And here are my top discoveries for what sounds really good:
1: Instruments waiting until the beginning of a part to come in and doing so in a sort of staggered way. (Or all together, of course, if you're at Jack's session and the tune isn't coming as a complete surprise)
2: Steady guitar playing that doesn't overpower the melody with trickiness or volume.
3: Tight endings.
4: Taking turns. (See footnote.)
5: Playing one tune long enough for people to get really in sync with each other and build up those psychic session waves.
6: Nicholas, Mike, Peter, Pascale and Olivier, especially all together. (Sadly I didn't record that one. I just know.)
I don't use my session recordings to learn tunes, other than to pick tunes I want to learn. Once I know which ones I'm after, I usually track down the person who started it off on my recording and see if they will sit down with me after the session, or in a quiet corner, or in my kitchen, and play it solo. If it's a fast one, I'll ask for it played slow once through, then fast once or twice. It's better to have them physically sit there and teach it to me, because they are always much more likely to notice if I've missed something than I am; I'm a terrible filler-in-of-blacks. Or, I should say, I'm good at it. Perfectly capable of making something up that sounds fine to replace notes I've forgotten, or never learned properly in the first place. So it's better for everybody if I have somebody looming over me refusing to tolerate my mental laziness.
Oh yeah, footnote. taking turns. With really strong players it sounds brilliant when they "arrange" on the fly, intentionally building up the energy of a set by being selective about when to play and when not to. I think choosing not to play a tune you know like your own navel just to let another player do his thing, waiting for the perfect moment to come in with a bang. Knowing how to do this well is an art.
That has to be some record for the number of posts that happened while I was writing mine. I have too much time on my hands. Plus I forgot to answer the question. Yes, 2nd fiddle, I see slow downers as a crutch and I don't believe they are necessary.
Kerri wrote: "8: The noisy drunks yelling at each other in the background." Now I see where you got your inspiration for the mp3 you made on my behalf for the Mighty Craic Online page.
Well back to the topic. By all means slow down the music if you need to get a clear listen to it. You must walk before you run. Nobody learns tunes at top speed or indeed a language for that matter. Its a long learning curve and you must tread along it. By learning slow in the beginning you will train your ear, and your hands to work properly and speed is just an added extra which will arrive in time. Trust me on this
. Focus on getting the tune 100% accurate, how you achive this is up to you, by all means use the software if you don't have a teacher near by. All the software is doing is the same thing a good teacher does. Walks you through the tune holding your hand until you can do it all by yourself. You will find that as you learn you will not need to slow it down to the same level as you used to. You have travelled partially along that learning curve when this happens. Irish music has become to fast and I feel that more should be done to encourage people to play with more feel and in general closer to the music. Recordings are responsible for this. I often hear a band live and then hear their CD and the speed difference is unbeliveable. Some think you have to play fast to be considered good!!
"All the software is doing is the same thing a good teacher does."
Not really... A tune played slowly and a tune played fast slowed down by software is really two different things. If you've ever played with slowdown software, you'll know. Just like Will said about the rolls.
I'm not saying that it's forbidden. I use it sometimes myself. But one should be aware of the fact that slowed down recordings and slow recordings are not the same.
That's true, Pobe. However, I'd also like to ask "What is full(or optimum) speed?". It depends a lot on the situation and player.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with learning a tune tune slowly as long as you don't depend on this practice; ie use it as a crutch as others have warned. It doesn't have to be played that much slower. About 80% is probably enough. That might even be the usual speed for an average fiddler, anyway!!! However, I would get back up to the desired speed very quickly, though it might not be necessary to play as fast as on a CD. That depends on taste and circumstances, surely.
Of course, you shouldn't attempt to learn a tune until you've heard it a few times. How do you know if you like it enough for a start?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning tunes slow, that's not what I said. I'm nowhere near able to pick up tunes flying by at full speed. I said that learning from a slowed down recording might not be the best of ideas.
The (next) best thing would of course be to get a slow recording, and that might be possible. If you can't have someone teach you tunes directly, perhaps someone could play a few slow for you to record.
That's ok, Pobe. I knew what you meant and I agree. A slower version is not the same as a slowed down version. My question was not actually directed at you personally but at all the members of the forum. Sorry if there was confusion.
(I find it hard to express myself in my own language sometimes but I'm trying)
Kerri, your list of things that suck and things that sound good is spot on. It exactly matches my own list, exept for the names of the people in point 6 of good things.
I use a small MP3 recorder and simply place it in the middle of the table. Recording quality is poor, but good enough to learn all sorts of things from.
I agree a tune played slowly is better to learn from than a slowed-down tune. This is why I ask to record the tune once slowly and once or twice up to speed.
(Finally adding my .02 after lurking)
I find I really learn a tune better by physically transcribing it into "little black dots". I'm classically trained, and that has always been my default learning mode. After doing it that way, I usually put it into abc, then make an annoying sounding midi file that I can play along with - at whatever speed I'm comfortable with, and with no pitch change.
I will concede, however, that the tradition of learning by ear is a very different thing, but not completely different. The two can be married into something that shortens the learning curve. It has done that for me.
My advice for you, Fyffer -- keep trying to learn to learn by ear. I'm also classically trained and in the beginning I also found it easier to hybrid learning by ear with learning with dots -- in fact, there's times when I'll short cut a phrase or two if I'm not catching it from someone else or off a recording, but I consider it cheating. I'll also go hunting down dots to see what other people's ideas are for variations and to find out what other settings are out there, but that's something I do as I'm getting the thing under my fingers anyway.
There's a lot of reasons to do this: for one, you get fast enough to pick stuff up on the fly at a session, eventually (not that I always can, jigs and polkas and slides are easier to pick up then reels for me at this point) without having to record and go home and learn it, or having to risk annoying Jack by noodling trying to get it for weeks and weeks -- MUCH more fun to be able to pick something up the second or third time round. (Not that annoying Jack isn't fun. *smirk*)
Also, speaking exceptionally frankly, there's also the matter of street cred -- it's the mark of a good Irish player to be able to pick stuff up by ear, the faster the better.
The best thing to do is to listen to a tune over and over and over again, in whatever form you can find it in, even if it's MIDI, though that's certainly not ideal, until you can sing the thing out without having the recording playing. THEN pick up your instrument. You'll find, if you know your instrument, that the tune will just pop right out with no need of dots or such, and it'll be much easier to get it up to speed in general. (If you don't know your instrument and where all the notes fall on it, it'll take longer, but that's because you'll be doing two things at once.)
It's something that has to be practiced, so do it slowly now so you can do it quickly later, is my two bits.
Thanks, Zina - good advice, and stuff I guess I know instinctively anyway. AFA learning "on the fly" at sessions -- I don't get out as much as I'd like to (real life in the way, and all), and I don't have many recordings yet, so the way I'm learning tunes right now is from the dots - mostly gleaned off this site. I bring my printed tunebook to the session when I do go, and hope the tune their playing is in my book (and that it has the same title!) Good point about "street cred" -- but I'll just have to abide the behind-my-back whisperings about me until I am up to speed (pun intended).
Also good point about being able to sing the tune before trying to learn it. That's the difference between "knowing" a tune and being able to play a tune. Again, something I understand instinctively, since the tunes I can play rather well are tunes I have learnt from recordings as opposed to reading the music. The curse for me is that I am a *very* good sightreader, and I can pretty much read and play up to session tempo - of course it ends up very dry, but I'm still learning my instrument as well.
I guess there is no fast track way to get to the level I want to be at. It's frustrating for me because I am a decent musician already (if I do say so myself), and I'm impatient about being as good at ITM as I know I can be eventually.
It still makes my blood boil when it gets going really good - and to be a part of it - even a small part - is even better.
(crossed post ...)
I've only been to Tinker's Nest in Warren, and it's been pretty much just Brad, John and Jay (who do a gig thing themselves anyway). It's hard to learn tunes that way when they are so "put together" the way they play them, but they are being patient with me, and asking me sometimes what I want to play as well, which is encouraging. I've gotta find a slower/beginner session somewhere, but I'm afraid I don't deal well with too-amateurish muso's - especially WRT intonation. I'm a snob that way.
Keeping the faith ...
Yup, I used to be very fast with the sight reading, but since I don't read much these days, I'm not nearly so fast any more.
In some ways, being a decent musician and starting this stuff up is really kind of hard, simply because you have to put up with everyone offering you advice (and trying to figure out what the important stuff is for you out of it is sometimes more aggravating than just ignoring it all).
Just remember: best to have fewer tunes that you play with great style and feeling than lots of tunes with none of that, the latter either on or off the dots. Other players can respect that (or they should -- if they can't, you might want to re-think who you're playing with!).
Also, as you get to know the style, you'll be able to put the same kind of feeling and style into the stuff you learn off the dots, without having to hear it played first, but don't expect that to happen any time soon. I'm only just starting to get that now and it's been five years.
"It still makes my blood boil when it gets going really good" -- that's the only reason we play this stuff, my son -- it's the only really good reason.
I've come so far from my classical background I'm finally too lazy to be arsed with the dots. Presented with sheet music for a tune I've never heard before I'll scratch my head and furrow my brow and go all dyslexic about what it all means, whereas 15 years ago I used to be able to sing or play a simple melody by sight effortlessly.
Then again, the material is different. With classical music, everything I was supposed to do was right there on the page, I could hear it in my head by looking at it. With trad it's really ambiguous. Sure, fine, a tune is comprised of a string of notes. I understand that. But the *playing* of the tune is nowhere to be found in the sheet music. Trying to sight read ITM would be like trying to sight read Chopin without any pedal markings, tempo, dynamics, or stacattos marked in. It would take me a while to figure out what to do with it, ya know?
I do realize this has nothing to do with the topic. Let's see here... uuuuhhh... yeah. What Zina said. Use your ears.
fyffer: "I am a *very* good sightreader and I can pretty much read and play up to session tempo"
Sorry to say, although you might be proud to have it, there is absolutely no purpose to this skill whatsoever. If you haven't sorted out your phrasing and ornamentation, you aren't playing the tune, you're just playing a bunch of notes, and I guarantee it sounds terrible. Even if you were the most brilliant player in the world it would sound terrible (at least the first time through. If you were truly exceptional your brain might process quite a bit of phrasing after hearing the tune once.)
"of course it ends up very dry"
No kidding! Trust me, keep this particular talent of yours firmly filed under "classical playing" where all the information you need is right there on the page.
OR, get in touch with that person who was working on notating tunes *as played* with all the slightly flat or sharp intonation that is meant to occur, all the ornamentation, the proper amount of swing, etc. If you feel you can play up to speed from sheet music, you're a perfect candidate for her research project.
On learning tunes at sessions: When I said a good way to learn tunes is at sessions, I didn't mean that you should noodle along until you know it -- that's annoying. (As Zina points out *smirk*) I'll give you a more specific idea of what I'm talking about.
One of the rotating session hosts at our local is a really good box player from Cork, Barry O'Connell. He hosts a session once a month with Paddy Cronin's son, Vinnie. Barry has some great jigs that he plays every time that I'd love to get, but I keep forgetting to bring my recorder. When they come up I listen intently hoping to recognize them on recordings I have at home because Barry has no idea what the names of these tunes are. Last week, when one of these tunes came, I found myself hearing it clearly in my head before he even made it to the repeat of the A part, so I picked up my flute and discovered I could play the thing with only a couple of minor flaws. This isn't the first time I've learned a tune this way at a session, but it seems to happen on it's own time schedule and comes to fruition without me having any say as to when and where.
I have a feeling that people probably learned tunes like this before tape recorders were so ubiquitous, and a lot of folks still learn most of their tunes this way today depending on the availability of good local on-going sessions in their area. A lot of people are in too big of a hurry to learn tunes this way at sessions and they will often resort to noodling and unintentionally annoying the regulars.
For people that don’t have access to good local sessions -- tape recorder are their only option for capturing tunes to learn. The important thing to remember is that playing along with your recordings at home to learn tunes is different than playing along with live people at a session. Your play-back equipment can’t hear you.
Concerning sight-reading and playing ITM. I also have a classical music background, and I majored in music. It only took one time comparing written music to a recording of the same to realize that it's an aural art form. I think people who think they can sight-read this music aren't paying close attention to what's going on.
Thanks again, everybody. It's great to get all the different opinions because that helps one to realize that there isn't one right way and that each person has to figure out his or her own way of doing things on a trial and error basis, which becomes a lot more efficient though if one has a better idea of the various possiblities and approaches, having heard from people with experience.
I've been giving this some thought and I guess maybe for me it'd be better not to bother with a nice & expensive toy (as much as I'd like one). I have a cheapie tape recorder with sh*te sound quality but which might be good enough to use for recording and listening at regular speed to get the basic shape and lift of the tunes.
I'm beginning to think the listen, listen, listen advice is best after all. I found that learning the basics of one tune I heard played at a session I attended was pretty easy because I had heard (and liked) that tune before on a recording and I knew in my head without thinking about it what the notes were and how it was supposed to sound (or rather one good way it could sound). But the tunes played at the session that I never heard before I can't learn at all, or at least not with the right rhythm or lift (not that I could play with the right rhythm or lift yet anyway! but it's nice to have a clear goal) because trying to go from sheet music is for me a painful process that I think I am going to do away with entirely except for looking up hard phrases on fast tunes that my ear isn't good enough for yet, which still isn't much help if the local session plays a slightly different version from what got written down in the dots. I guess that's what I was thinking to overcome by slowing down recordings, but maybe that too I'll use as a last resort. I think if I just get the tunes recorded at regular speed I'll at least be able to learn what they sound like played properly, and if I listen enough my ear will figure out what I need to know.
I suppose I was also curious about slow-down tech just to be able to determine what sorts of ornaments musicians were playing at certain points in the tune to get certain effects, because my ear isn't good enough yet to distinguish between all the ornaments, especially on fast recordings. But that's not an immediate concern for me in any case as I am just trying to get the very basics and can learn ornamentation later.
Thanks Will for the hint about WMP. I didn't know it had that capability--i've been using itunes, which I find easier on the eyes--and it will save me having to use a different program, as I expect I will mess around with it a little bit, just for kicks.
Ooh, I totally forgot about the Uilleann poodle project...
Hey Jack, would you believe I finally figured out why we used to have all those steamy noodling arguments? What you just described: "I picked up my flute and discovered I could play the thing with only a couple of minor flaws" is what *I* call noodling.
It always sounded to me like you were saying that you noodled on tunes you didn't know. If you have spent enought time listening until the tune played in your head, and you played along with only a few flaws -- that's playing the music. My definition of noodling is when folks try to pick up tunes they don't know on the fly. So do we kiss and make up now, or do you get out your whip and stillettos?
I once commented at one particular session that I didn't know many of the tunes that night. The bodhran player smugly informed me that he could play all of them.
Mark--I am looking forward to next Sunday. But one thing scares me, and that that's there not many melody instruments so far, which means there is some chance that the others will hear my playing all too clearly, which makes me feel sorry for them. Ah well. It's a slow session after all and for my likes there's no way to learn but by being very bad at first and gradually getting slightly less bad I guess. And I am excited that there will be another fiddler there.
OK, when I say I "don't know" a tune, it means I've never played it before, as far as I can remember. But having a habit of going to an average of 3 sessions a week for the past five years, listening to CDs and session recordings morning noon and night, it doesn't often happen that someone comes up with a tune I've *never* heard before. When it DOES happen I get so excited I sit and listen ravenously, hardly breathing.
2nd Fid - I would think twice about NOT purchasing a decent recording device. If you end up with a muddy recording, you might not hear enough of the notes to get a handle on the tune. And if you just happen to visit an absolutely killer session that only happens every once in a long while, and you have a bad recorder, you will wonder about what could have been.
Just last night I was listening to a couple of old session tapes. They were both one-of-a-kind events, and I am glad that I have a decent recording of them!
Before any more digs about my *astounding* sight-reading ability, and how that makes me a better session player, be it known that I never intended to imply that I thought I could actually play it *correctly* by reading while the *real* tune was going along. All I am saying is that for *ME*, having that one extra sense involved (sight, that is) just adds one more dimension to my learning experience -- especially for a tune that I may have an only cursory knowledge/memory of, if at all. Again, being classically trained, I can't help thinking of tunes, while I'm learning them, in terms of -"this sections is G major, then it goes to A dorian, the B section goes between E and B minor, etc.." and seeing the music in front of me reinforces that.
I actually do agree that listening is indeed the best way to capture the essence of What It Really Is, but for those of us who actually *can* read *and* listen at the same time, the additional input only serves to strengthen the neural connections that burn the tunes into our psyches.
Kerri says (re: sightreading): "there is absolutely no purpose to this skill whatsoever"
I couldn't disagree more. I don't believe this skill belongs completely in the classical realm (I was never really a "classical" musician anyway, just "classically trained"). That's almost like saying now that I've learned to speak fluently, there's no need to read anymore. No disrespect intended here, Kerri, since I know you've been at it much longer than I (and others here even longer, I'm sure), but telling anyone that *any* skill that they have has "no purpose" is hardly an encouraging way to engage in conversation - especially for a neophyte such as myself. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on this point -- and continue to try to learn by ear as much as humanly possible.
Jode, I take your point. I had been thinking of just trying to learn tunes at sessions. It hadn't really occurred to me that I could get sound quality good enough to have a sort of archive of great session music. Sound quality on my current recorder is so bad that I'll be lucky if I can make out the tune. It's just that to get the best is too expensive for me at this point. But it's something to think about at least....
Thought I'd pop in, first off - I can play a few tunes but I no a top notch fiddler by any stretch.
Fyfferguy does, fine when he comes to the session - the social dynamic of playing music with people is the same regardless of genre (that's a lot of big words). He reads his music at the session, he's playing well enough & has the right attitude.
As far as reading music: Some big time Irish music god once told me that to put down using any tool which helps you learn music is just going to hinder your progress. If I'm correct, Fyfferdude doesn't plan on using sheetmusic forever or making anyone else use it. It doesn't really help or hurt anyone else, so what's the problem. Learning this music is a long road which never ends, we all started somewhere.
Playing by ear is a skill which gets better with time & practice; after all, when you first read music you weren't as good at it as you are now?
As far as Jay & I being pretty tight: we've been playing music together for over ten years - we can talk without words (spooky). John has loads of tunes I've never heard that he picked up in Limerick, Dublin & all over the US. Gary has a gift for picking out off the beaten track tunes that are dynamite (I don't know many of his tunes, yet, but I hope to) Fyfferfellow, I'll bring an mp3 cd full of mostly flute albums for you if you plan to come next Wed.
Too Zina, Kerry, jack etc Sorry I haven't been around too much but i'm busy, I've been going to night school & have been sick alot lately.
Fyffer, I didn't say there's no purpose to sight reading, (or I didn't mean to) I meant the whole phrase: "sightread and play up to session tempo". I really can't see how that would ever be... you know... *useful* in any way. Don't you *like* sitting down with a single tune for ages and ages, playing it slowly, ripping it apart, putting it back together?
If I had the time to do this, I would do it all the time. I've been listening to old recordings of stuff I was playing when I started: Almost entirely stuff someone from my "Celtic" band gave me sheet music for and said "Here's the tune. Learn it". No frame of reference for what the dynamics were supposed to be, as I didn't listen to any Irish music at the time apart from U2. And, by god, does it ever sound atrocious. Sometimes the notes are all there and the timing's fine, but... YASH! It's AWFUL! Why wasn't I aware of this at the time? How could I ever have pranced around doing it in PUBLIC, collecting MONEY for it!?
I'm telling you, Jode's right: the more you hear, the more you hear. If your reading isn't distracting you from focusing the full strength of your attention on *listening*, fair play to you. I used to stare at Brian's butt all the time while playing the bodhran. Everyone's got their visual stimuli.
Fair enough, Kerri. I didn't mean to quote you out of context either, just trying to make a point. Thanks for clearing things up, too.
Are we friends again?
And Brad, thanks for the encouragement (I can' t believe you read this entire thread!), and I will probably be there next Wed, and I'll gladly accept any musical offerings you want to give me, be it in Audio, Visual -- or digital format.
(Sorry, too many smilies)
Oh yeah, and yes I do "*like* sitting down with a single tune for ages and ages, playing it slowly, ripping it apart, putting it back together". That is yet *another* method of learning tunes. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as you can tell by listening to most beginning fiddlers. (sorry, couldn't resist).
Heya, Bradfordly -- sorry to hear you've been sick, that's kinda sucky. Hope things're going swimmingly with your little crew, send a pic of the sprogs (who must be MUCH bigger now!) when you get a chance -- and take care of yourself, y'hear?!
One of my very favorite moments ever: playing in a session in Helena, Montana, cell phone on my shoulder with Brad playing along with us in Rhode Island on the other end, can't remember the tune now, but great crack for sure.
(Fyffer, I still say you're in good hands with Brad, his modest disclaimers all aside! Playing notwithstanding, he's just a good guy.
Fyff, please tell me something I can call you. Something you like and identify with that's quiker to spell than "fyfferguy" (and with Capitals, Too!) I'm drunk! Give me a break! I prefer single syllables like "Jack", "Jode", "Will" and "Jim". Zina's on the cusp, because, though she has two syllables, she only has four letters. (Very efficient, if you ask me. Maybe I should start posting as Kari. Like the lotion. But I digress.)
*scroll, scroll*
Oh yes. Of course. We're friends. No problem. Also, the ony thing I can tell from listening to beginning fiddlers (including myself on the 5 years worth of MDs I've been processing lately) is that the fiddle is a horrible, hateful, unfriendly instrument and they should all be burned.
And Brad, jaysus it's been a while! Good to see you wasting your spare time (as the rest of us do) once more!
FFFFyffffffffer Gggguyyy (sigh of exhaustion after all that abstract typing). Seriously, didn't mean anything by my rant. I use sheet music myself. I even write it at sessions like a little memo to myself (very occasionally). Maybe you know how it goes... "Dear god in heaven, what a tune! I MUST learn it! I MUST attack the person playing it, next time she goes to the toilet, and find out the name!" But you know you're drunk, and you're going to forget in about four seconds, so you scribble a bit of notation to remind yourself. If you're me, it's in the wrong key and the lines all run together, but the point is, you *don't* forget what it was that got you so excited in the first place.
Offf to bed. but with two fs, not three. And a smoke first, and maybe one more shot of whiskey. What the heck, it's Friday. Thank god, by the way (totally unexpected return to topic) that I have an MD recorder with which I was able to tape the booze-soaked essence of the tune I wrote not half an hour ago.
one must always have something in one's pocket with which one can record oneself, for better or worse.
Kerri, et al, if you must use something else to call me, please use my real name, which happens to be Chris. One fewer letter to type than Fyffer (though in the latter, three are duplicated).
I have a general rule not to use my given name when registering for *any* online forum, so some clever moniker usually gets concocted on the spot. I have no problem being addressed with the name my Mom gave me, now that I know we're all friends, and I don't think anyone is going to hunt me down and steal my identity.
-Chris
Check out "the amazing slowdowner" software by RONI. http://www.ronimusic.com/ .49.95 My fiddler musician buddy plays only by ear and so we learn tunes off of CD's. Yes ,it's true that many tunes don't need to be slowed down(and my ability has gotten better to hear/play tunes), but for certain tunes or parts of tunes ,it totally speeds up the learning process. I often only need to hear a tune slowed down a few times and I'm off and running. What could be wrong with that? Have fun.....
1) Marantz cassette recorders have both a half-speed switch and and a variable-speed dial. They make excellent recordings.
2) Any recorder is only as good as its microphone. Don't skimp.
3) In my 'umble opinion, buying a dictation recorder just so you can transfer the recording digitally into your computer is cutting off your nose to spite your face, as they sound so miserable.
4) After years of trying to pull tunes out of session recordings, I finally realized that it's the wrong way to go -- it's very hard to get a good clear recording and it's very hard to figure out which note is an ornament and which a mistake amidst all the noise.
The best thing is to wait for a coffee break (beer, whiskey, tea, brownies, whatever), pull aside a musician and ask him or her to record the tune for you once at a slow, learning tempo and once at "full speed". More times through, if possible. Don't forget to say the name of the tune on the recording.
The second best thing is to write down the names of the tunes you especially want to learn. Then go over the musician's house to make the same recording. You will treasure those recordings.
Third best is to have the musician play them over the phone into your answering machine.
Fourth best is to write the names down and get the ABC file from this very Session. You can speed up or slow down the tunes very easily. And you can tune your instrument with ABC's tones, too.
I got tired of my minidisc either running out of disc space or battery life just during the playing of a tune I'm keen to learn to play - so I recently bought an MP3 player / encoder that will record many hours of music and a single recharged AA battery lasts much longer than the very longest of sessions.
My player is the iRiver IFP899, 1Gb model at about £150 (UK) - gives about 12 -15 hours of decent quality MP3 encoded recording - and has loads of features (look it up). About £90 gets you the 256Mb model - with all the same features - but about 3-4 hours recording - enough for most sessions.
The built in mic is OK for learning tunes, but even a £20 stereo 'tie clip' mic (from Maplins) dramatically improves quality.
I just leave the recorder running for the whole session - then load the MP3 onto my computer and save the bits I want to keep. (using something such as "MP3 Trimmer" shareware on the Mac)
Regarding 'slowing down'. I've just dicovered that the latest version of Quicktime Player (a free download for Mac and PC) at http://www.apple.com/quicktime now has a slowdown (and speedup) feature. Under the menu 'window' - 'show AV controls' - and there it is!
The great thing is that it will slowdown CD's in 'real-time' ( go to'open file' and select the CD / track/s you want) as well as MP3s and my favourites for learning- MIDI tracks.
The midi tracks I usually download from 'thesession.org' site, and I find Quicktime a really quick and easy way to play them - especially in the backgtound while I'm doing 'other work'. Now I can slow them down - thats even better.
As many of the midi files play slower than 'session speed' - 'speed up' could also come in useful when building up speed by playing along with the midi (NOT while I'm doing 'other work').
Oops -f ollowing my previous post - Iv'e just noticed Quicktime v7 is released as Mac version only at moment (the one I'm using) - 'Windows version coming soon' it says on the website.
recording sessions to learn tunes
recording sessions to learn tunes
I'd like to record sessions to learn tunes. As a complete beginner I find listening to slowed-down recordings helpful in practicing & learning faster tunes. I understand from browsing previous discussions that there are tape recorders that do this as well as higher-sound-quality and more versatile digital options such as MP3 recorders and MiniDisc recorders. I have already found in the discussions database a useful free computer program for slowing down MP3s of commercial recordings at proper pitch, but was unable to find an archived discussion that answered my current question and was also up-to-date. What are the best current options, with pros and cons, for recording sessions/practicing etc. in the several technology niches (i.e. tape recorder, mp3 recorder, what have you?)
Also, is variable-speed playback basically not important to get in peoples' experience? Is it only a crutch for beginners and not worth messing with?
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Cheapest option I found was a Panasonic digital dictation-type recorder, about $90 Canadian (What's that now, like $300US?) It came with software to transfer segments onto your computer as wav files. The quality is good enough for transcribing, and it will capture a couple of hours of music.
Will submitted a passionate argument once in favour of not using slowdowners, and I saw his point. However, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...I think the happy medium is to make sure the tune is well and truly stuck in your head before you transcribe (slowdowner or otherwise.)
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by grego
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
The format for MadForTrad CDrom tutorials is usually a basic set of tunes, sheet music and video at various speeds. It is a great format for learning. Of course, nothing can replace real sessions. If you have a group that regularly gets together and you want to stretch what you are doing with new tunes or get more fluent with what you are doing, a few informal sessions at someone's house with refreshments, family, kids, etc... works out well.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Ive being playing for a long time now, and I would say that recording sessions is great. Any time I`ve had to record something in the studio, I found that walking everywhere with my mp3 player was the best thing in the world for getting a rake of tunes into your head, before you sat down to learn them. Of course a simple way of approaching it would be to, record your regular session not forgetting to ask for as many tune names as you can, and if you are still missing phrases of the tunes you could always look them up in the music books.
The plus side to this way of learning is that you will get the opportunity to hear yourself in all your glory, and constructively critisize your playing. Not as scary as it sounds, it really makes you tighten up your technique and improves your playing no end.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
here is my position for slowing down. listen to the tune as many times as possible, and then learn it at full speed. if there are notes you seem to be missing, slow it down to get those, but dont learn all of it slow. always use it as a last resort, so eventually you wont have to do it often.
whenever i use slow down on my minidisc, i learn how a new interval sounds sped up. sometimes something sounds one note down when it is up / etc to an untrained ear, and by careful use of slow down you can train your ear not to need it. as a tool it is great, as a crutch it is no good.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by daiv
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Slow down isn`t going to help in the long run. I`m afraid the only thing to do is get the head down and familiarise yourself with as many different types of tunes as you can, music is a bit like a language, if you dont improve your vocabulary you`re going to run across things that dont translate.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Good point, Rea, also; you have to be careful about duplicating exactly what the loudest player in the session happened to be playing at that moment. Sometimes people, no matter how advanced, might be making a chronic mistake they didn't intend to, or they don't quite have that tune down, or they're confusing the B part with another tune, or turn-around etc. There will also be details that come out in a recording of a session that weren't being played on any particular instrument but are instead a combination of two or more instruments. I know you're probably saying, "That's all very fine and good Mr. Gilder, but what are we supposed to do about it?" The answer lies in what Rea was talking about.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Excellent observation Jack. Playing with the same musicians or alternatively in what may be your case 2ndfiddler, listening to the same players, has its own pitfalls. You should strive to play the version of the tune that is the highest common denominator. Later when you are more confident you can start playing around with the phrases. An easy way of doing this would be to learn the basics of the tune and leave ornamention out. Dont worry about how fancy you can make the tune sound with the abilities you have at the moment. Concentrate instead on being able to play with others. You`ll pick up techniques and tricks along the way, by listening and also observing what the other musicians are doing. It is a team sport after all!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I used a MiniDisc recorder (borrowed from a friend) and a couple of Crown Soundgrabber pressure zone microphones to record a couple sessions. Unfortunately, MiniDisc uses a proprietary compression algorithm (not MP3) and has no way of transferring digital audio to a computer. So, to get the stereo audio data from the MiniDisc into the computer, I connected the MiniDisc line-out into an analogue line-in jack on my PC soundcard with an 1/8" stereo cable. Then I played the MiniDisc and recorded the audio on the PC with MultiTrackStudio (the free Lite version from http://www.multitrackstudio.com). After a little fading in and out applied at the start and end of each track I have a decent library of tunes.
It's not a purely digital signal chain but the recordings turned out quite good and have been extremely useful for myself and many other learners.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by snapper
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Or you could practise, and then go to a session, or jam in your mates houses. Less technical but better craic.
Sorry Snapper I`m not being pretentious, just Irish.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Rea & Jack, I'm not sure if you're saying there's no place at all for learning the tunes from session recordings.
If you are, I'd (with my limited experience, of course) have to disagree. I think it's a great way to "learn the basics of the tune". Then you bring it back to your session and learn to play it with the "team." Especially helpful if real life doesn't allow you to attend five sessions a week.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Snapper, you can now convert your MiniDisc recordings to CD via software. There are still proprietary software problems. Try this link on for size:
http://sonyelectronics.sonystyle.com/walkmanmc/wav.html
We recently purchased the MiniDisc and love it except for the completely annoying proprietary constraints.
If you just want to record things and play them back on the same unit, then it is great. If you want to share music, make CDs or anything like that, they rot.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Jode
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
And on the subject of slow downs. I had a tape deck that would slow things down and it never really did me any good. With hindsight, I am glad I never got addicted to it. Listening to things over and over again not only enables you to learn the tune, it also educates your ear over time.
The more you hear the more you hear.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Jode
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Grego wrote: "Rea & Jack, I'm not sure if you're saying there's no place at all for learning the tunes from session recordings." That's not what I was saying at all, Grego, sessions and recordings of sessions are a great way to learn tunes and make sure you're getting the version that your local sessioneers play. I was just pointing out that because it is a session -- not to take it too literally. I'm reviewing tunes from a session tape I brought back from Ireland right now, as a matter of fact, and my process involves finding other sources of the tune (if possible) and comparing it to what I'm hearing on the tape. My setting ends up being what I hear on the tape tempered by what I find out about the tune. It's part of the "language" Rea was alluding to I think.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Jode wrote: "The more you hear the more you hear." And wherever you go -- there you are. hahahaha
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Part of my reasoning against slow-downer stuff is that music *is* a language and you want to get used to hearing it with the timing and inflections at their normal speed. Imagine trying to learn a foreign language slowed down half speed. You'd end up sounding like a barbituate overdose. I didn't realize how significant this could be until I used the variable speed function on Windows Media Player and could barely recognize a fiddle roll for what it was. At normal speed, everything was clear as a bell.
That said, I support the idea of slowing a tune down to learn it, but I still advocate for learning how to do this in your own head. Turns out we humans have the beta version of slow down software right between our own ears. Once you know a tune well, you should find that you can play it back in your mind's ear (or audibly lilt it) at whatever speed you want, without changing pitch. So you can peg a tune into your memory by listening to it repeatedly (week after week at a session, or from a normal speed recording), and then let your mind go through the notes in slow motion. This is also a good way to work out your own variations, without even having your instrument in hand.
(FWIW, to slow down a tune in Windows Media Player, download the sound file you want to listen to. You can copy it off a cd or download any soundfile off the web. Then go to the menu bar in WMP, click on View, scroll down to Enhancements, and click on Play Speed Settings--this pops up a playback scale that lets you vary the speed without changing pitch. Alternately, you can right click anywhere on the WMP screen and scroll down to Play Speed Settings--it will give you the choice of Fast, Normal, or Slow. "Slow" is half speed, normal pitch.)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Nice set of tunes Jack, or maybe the next Craobh Rua CD title.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Jode
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Grego if you had read all the comments you may have seen the section where I say that is one of the aids I use. What Jack and I are saying is that , Irish music comes from an oral tradition. It is passed through the generations purely by regurgitation. The tunes are built for this purpose. Coming from a long line of musicians and singers, I am shocked that an Irish person would assume that the music was so 1 dimensional. Open your mind grego and if youre going to play the music why dont you consider the history at the same time. I guarantee the more you associate with real live musicians the quicker and better your progression will be.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
P.S To be clear, the WMP slowdowner won't work just playing straight off a cd. You have to copy the track or sound file into your media library in Windows Media Player. Then click on that file to highlight it, and then follow the directions above.
The steps for getting the same results in your own mind are much simpler...
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I didn't hear grego imply that the music is one dimensional. He said he uses recordings to "learn the basics of the tune." Which no doubt then allows him to play it with the same live musicians he recorded it from.
When it comes to taking your place in the hand and mouth to ear chain of Irish music, life in the middle of no where (central North America) is a little different than in Belfast. We do learn directly from other players, but out of necessity also rely on less personal media. Which is also widely done in Ireland, hear tell.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I have the Amazing Slow Downer but I've never used it. In fact, I almost never learn a tune by listening piecemeal, over and over. It's not that I'm against it, I'm just too lazy to do that much work. I listen to a tune I like until one day it's in my head well enough to start trying to play it. It doesn't often come out exactly like the recording, but that's okay. I guess. Isn't it?
Sometimes I start playing a tune long after the last time I heard it and surprise myself by how much I've folk processed it in my head. I learned Maybelle Carter's Victory Rag that way and when I realized how much I had changed it, I decided to change the title. To give it more of a local flavor and a bit of irrational optimism, I call it Victory Over Kudzu.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I can see I'm going to have to stand in the corner again. Only, this time I'm not sure why... :{
yikes!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
You're Canadian now...that's your lot in life.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Lol, relax grego. I was a bit "shocked" myself that Rea would see your post as so one dimensional. Probably just a harmless misunderstanding.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
's ok. I didn't *really* go stand in the corner.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Right, but it was a nice mental image. Myself, I prefer standing *on* the corner, cradling my brown paper bag, watching the girls go by....huh? What? Was I dreaming? I didn't talk in my sleep did I?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Hey, open your mind, there, Harmon, in vino et veritas... ;)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Stand in front of the chalk board instead, Grego, and be sure to put your nose in the circle. If you don't behave you'll end up in the principle's office like Conan and Bannerman did in the tunes section.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
The main thing I use my session recordings for is to discover what sounds good and what sucks. Particular what I was drunk enough to think sounded great at the time that REALLY sucks the next day. There's WAY more of this stuff than used to think.
Here are my top discoveries with regards to things that suck:
1: Coming in all sloppy the instant I recognize the tune.
2: Rushing it.
3: My intonation, 90 per cent of the time.
4: My ornamentation (see "rushing it").
5: Tacking my set onto the end of someone else's set.
6: Bodhrans, spoons, and bones, 90 per cent of the time. (sorry guys).
7: Excessive foot tapping. (The Quebecois guys are exempt from this, of course).
8: The noisy drunks yelling at each other in the background.
9: Stop & start, crash & burn guitar playing.
10: Anything played after the 5 pint mark.
And here are my top discoveries for what sounds really good:
1: Instruments waiting until the beginning of a part to come in and doing so in a sort of staggered way. (Or all together, of course, if you're at Jack's session and the tune isn't coming as a complete surprise)
2: Steady guitar playing that doesn't overpower the melody with trickiness or volume.
3: Tight endings.
4: Taking turns. (See footnote.)
5: Playing one tune long enough for people to get really in sync with each other and build up those psychic session waves.
6: Nicholas, Mike, Peter, Pascale and Olivier, especially all together. (Sadly I didn't record that one. I just know.)
I don't use my session recordings to learn tunes, other than to pick tunes I want to learn. Once I know which ones I'm after, I usually track down the person who started it off on my recording and see if they will sit down with me after the session, or in a quiet corner, or in my kitchen, and play it solo. If it's a fast one, I'll ask for it played slow once through, then fast once or twice. It's better to have them physically sit there and teach it to me, because they are always much more likely to notice if I've missed something than I am; I'm a terrible filler-in-of-blacks. Or, I should say, I'm good at it. Perfectly capable of making something up that sounds fine to replace notes I've forgotten, or never learned properly in the first place. So it's better for everybody if I have somebody looming over me refusing to tolerate my mental laziness.
Oh yeah, footnote. taking turns. With really strong players it sounds brilliant when they "arrange" on the fly, intentionally building up the energy of a set by being selective about when to play and when not to. I think choosing not to play a tune you know like your own navel just to let another player do his thing, waiting for the perfect moment to come in with a bang. Knowing how to do this well is an art.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
That has to be some record for the number of posts that happened while I was writing mine. I have too much time on my hands. Plus I forgot to answer the question. Yes, 2nd fiddle, I see slow downers as a crutch and I don't believe they are necessary.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
"...about $90 Canadian (What's that now, like $300US?"
$72.55.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Tunes!
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Kerri wrote: "8: The noisy drunks yelling at each other in the background." Now I see where you got your inspiration for the mp3 you made on my behalf for the Mighty Craic Online page.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
The Edirol R-1 one looks like an ideal tool for this...
http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html
It even has a built in tuner and metronome.
-bp
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by bretton
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Edirol R-1? Are those the funny little pink pills that go in my morning oatmeal, or the big brown horse pills I take only on Mondaze...?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
2nd Fiddle -- thinking of next Sunday? I'm looking forward to it! Mark
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by markwilson
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Number 11 on my list of things that suck: My spelling and syntax in the first and last paragraph of that epic post.
...
(should that have been "paragraphs"?)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Well back to the topic. By all means slow down the music if you need to get a clear listen to it. You must walk before you run. Nobody learns tunes at top speed or indeed a language for that matter. Its a long learning curve and you must tread along it. By learning slow in the beginning you will train your ear, and your hands to work properly and speed is just an added extra which will arrive in time. Trust me on this
. Focus on getting the tune 100% accurate, how you achive this is up to you, by all means use the software if you don't have a teacher near by. All the software is doing is the same thing a good teacher does. Walks you through the tune holding your hand until you can do it all by yourself. You will find that as you learn you will not need to slow it down to the same level as you used to. You have travelled partially along that learning curve when this happens. Irish music has become to fast and I feel that more should be done to encourage people to play with more feel and in general closer to the music. Recordings are responsible for this. I often hear a band live and then hear their CD and the speed difference is unbeliveable. Some think you have to play fast to be considered good!!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
"All the software is doing is the same thing a good teacher does."
Not really... A tune played slowly and a tune played fast slowed down by software is really two different things. If you've ever played with slowdown software, you'll know. Just like Will said about the rolls.
I'm not saying that it's forbidden. I use it sometimes myself. But one should be aware of the fact that slowed down recordings and slow recordings are not the same.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
That's true, Pobe. However, I'd also like to ask "What is full(or optimum) speed?". It depends a lot on the situation and player.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with learning a tune tune slowly as long as you don't depend on this practice; ie use it as a crutch as others have warned. It doesn't have to be played that much slower. About 80% is probably enough. That might even be the usual speed for an average fiddler, anyway!!! However, I would get back up to the desired speed very quickly, though it might not be necessary to play as fast as on a CD. That depends on taste and circumstances, surely.
Of course, you shouldn't attempt to learn a tune until you've heard it a few times. How do you know if you like it enough for a start?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning tunes slow, that's not what I said. I'm nowhere near able to pick up tunes flying by at full speed. I said that learning from a slowed down recording might not be the best of ideas.
The (next) best thing would of course be to get a slow recording, and that might be possible. If you can't have someone teach you tunes directly, perhaps someone could play a few slow for you to record.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
And playing tunes slow can be quite nice, even if you're cabaple of doing them faster.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
(I really don't like trying to express myself through short text messages in a foreign language, but I'm trying...)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Muy bien en la biblioteca.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
That's ok, Pobe. I knew what you meant and I agree. A slower version is not the same as a slowed down version. My question was not actually directed at you personally but at all the members of the forum. Sorry if there was confusion.
(I find it hard to express myself in my own language sometimes but I'm trying)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Kerri, your list of things that suck and things that sound good is spot on. It exactly matches my own list, exept for the names of the people in point 6 of good things.
I use a small MP3 recorder and simply place it in the middle of the table. Recording quality is poor, but good enough to learn all sorts of things from.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Shrog
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Just having a quick look...didn't seem to notice any request for permission to record???
Bx
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by briantheflute
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I agree a tune played slowly is better to learn from than a slowed-down tune. This is why I ask to record the tune once slowly and once or twice up to speed.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
(Finally adding my .02 after lurking)
I find I really learn a tune better by physically transcribing it into "little black dots". I'm classically trained, and that has always been my default learning mode. After doing it that way, I usually put it into abc, then make an annoying sounding midi file that I can play along with - at whatever speed I'm comfortable with, and with no pitch change.
I will concede, however, that the tradition of learning by ear is a very different thing, but not completely different. The two can be married into something that shortens the learning curve. It has done that for me.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
My advice for you, Fyffer -- keep trying to learn to learn by ear. I'm also classically trained and in the beginning I also found it easier to hybrid learning by ear with learning with dots -- in fact, there's times when I'll short cut a phrase or two if I'm not catching it from someone else or off a recording, but I consider it cheating. I'll also go hunting down dots to see what other people's ideas are for variations and to find out what other settings are out there, but that's something I do as I'm getting the thing under my fingers anyway.
There's a lot of reasons to do this: for one, you get fast enough to pick stuff up on the fly at a session, eventually (not that I always can, jigs and polkas and slides are easier to pick up then reels for me at this point) without having to record and go home and learn it, or having to risk annoying Jack by noodling trying to get it for weeks and weeks -- MUCH more fun to be able to pick something up the second or third time round. (Not that annoying Jack isn't fun. *smirk*)
Also, speaking exceptionally frankly, there's also the matter of street cred -- it's the mark of a good Irish player to be able to pick stuff up by ear, the faster the better.
The best thing to do is to listen to a tune over and over and over again, in whatever form you can find it in, even if it's MIDI, though that's certainly not ideal, until you can sing the thing out without having the recording playing. THEN pick up your instrument. You'll find, if you know your instrument, that the tune will just pop right out with no need of dots or such, and it'll be much easier to get it up to speed in general. (If you don't know your instrument and where all the notes fall on it, it'll take longer, but that's because you'll be doing two things at once.)
It's something that has to be practiced, so do it slowly now so you can do it quickly later, is my two bits.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
P.S.
How're the sessions going in RI?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Thanks, Zina - good advice, and stuff I guess I know instinctively anyway. AFA learning "on the fly" at sessions -- I don't get out as much as I'd like to (real life in the way, and all), and I don't have many recordings yet, so the way I'm learning tunes right now is from the dots - mostly gleaned off this site. I bring my printed tunebook to the session when I do go, and hope the tune their playing is in my book (and that it has the same title!) Good point about "street cred" -- but I'll just have to abide the behind-my-back whisperings about me until I am up to speed (pun intended).
Also good point about being able to sing the tune before trying to learn it. That's the difference between "knowing" a tune and being able to play a tune. Again, something I understand instinctively, since the tunes I can play rather well are tunes I have learnt from recordings as opposed to reading the music. The curse for me is that I am a *very* good sightreader, and I can pretty much read and play up to session tempo - of course it ends up very dry, but I'm still learning my instrument as well.
I guess there is no fast track way to get to the level I want to be at. It's frustrating for me because I am a decent musician already (if I do say so myself), and I'm impatient about being as good at ITM as I know I can be eventually.
It still makes my blood boil when it gets going really good - and to be a part of it - even a small part - is even better.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
(crossed post ...)
I've only been to Tinker's Nest in Warren, and it's been pretty much just Brad, John and Jay (who do a gig thing themselves anyway). It's hard to learn tunes that way when they are so "put together" the way they play them, but they are being patient with me, and asking me sometimes what I want to play as well, which is encouraging. I've gotta find a slower/beginner session somewhere, but I'm afraid I don't deal well with too-amateurish muso's - especially WRT intonation. I'm a snob that way.
Keeping the faith ...
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Yup, I used to be very fast with the sight reading, but since I don't read much these days, I'm not nearly so fast any more.
In some ways, being a decent musician and starting this stuff up is really kind of hard, simply because you have to put up with everyone offering you advice (and trying to figure out what the important stuff is for you out of it is sometimes more aggravating than just ignoring it all).
Just remember: best to have fewer tunes that you play with great style and feeling than lots of tunes with none of that, the latter either on or off the dots. Other players can respect that (or they should -- if they can't, you might want to re-think who you're playing with!).
Also, as you get to know the style, you'll be able to put the same kind of feeling and style into the stuff you learn off the dots, without having to hear it played first, but don't expect that to happen any time soon. I'm only just starting to get that now and it's been five years.
"It still makes my blood boil when it gets going really good" -- that's the only reason we play this stuff, my son -- it's the only really good reason.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
You'll be fine with Brad -- don't know John or Jay, I don't think. Bradfordly is a fine ol' fella!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I've come so far from my classical background I'm finally too lazy to be arsed with the dots. Presented with sheet music for a tune I've never heard before I'll scratch my head and furrow my brow and go all dyslexic about what it all means, whereas 15 years ago I used to be able to sing or play a simple melody by sight effortlessly.
Then again, the material is different. With classical music, everything I was supposed to do was right there on the page, I could hear it in my head by looking at it. With trad it's really ambiguous. Sure, fine, a tune is comprised of a string of notes. I understand that. But the *playing* of the tune is nowhere to be found in the sheet music. Trying to sight read ITM would be like trying to sight read Chopin without any pedal markings, tempo, dynamics, or stacattos marked in. It would take me a while to figure out what to do with it, ya know?
I do realize this has nothing to do with the topic. Let's see here... uuuuhhh... yeah. What Zina said. Use your ears.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
fyffer: "I am a *very* good sightreader and I can pretty much read and play up to session tempo"
Sorry to say, although you might be proud to have it, there is absolutely no purpose to this skill whatsoever. If you haven't sorted out your phrasing and ornamentation, you aren't playing the tune, you're just playing a bunch of notes, and I guarantee it sounds terrible. Even if you were the most brilliant player in the world it would sound terrible (at least the first time through. If you were truly exceptional your brain might process quite a bit of phrasing after hearing the tune once.)
"of course it ends up very dry"
No kidding! Trust me, keep this particular talent of yours firmly filed under "classical playing" where all the information you need is right there on the page.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
On second thought...
OR, get in touch with that person who was working on notating tunes *as played* with all the slightly flat or sharp intonation that is meant to occur, all the ornamentation, the proper amount of swing, etc. If you feel you can play up to speed from sheet music, you're a perfect candidate for her research project.
Shoot, I've forgotten who that was.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/5608/comments#comment119235
That's right, ostrichfeathers.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
On learning tunes at sessions: When I said a good way to learn tunes is at sessions, I didn't mean that you should noodle along until you know it -- that's annoying. (As Zina points out *smirk*) I'll give you a more specific idea of what I'm talking about.
One of the rotating session hosts at our local is a really good box player from Cork, Barry O'Connell. He hosts a session once a month with Paddy Cronin's son, Vinnie. Barry has some great jigs that he plays every time that I'd love to get, but I keep forgetting to bring my recorder. When they come up I listen intently hoping to recognize them on recordings I have at home because Barry has no idea what the names of these tunes are. Last week, when one of these tunes came, I found myself hearing it clearly in my head before he even made it to the repeat of the A part, so I picked up my flute and discovered I could play the thing with only a couple of minor flaws. This isn't the first time I've learned a tune this way at a session, but it seems to happen on it's own time schedule and comes to fruition without me having any say as to when and where.
I have a feeling that people probably learned tunes like this before tape recorders were so ubiquitous, and a lot of folks still learn most of their tunes this way today depending on the availability of good local on-going sessions in their area. A lot of people are in too big of a hurry to learn tunes this way at sessions and they will often resort to noodling and unintentionally annoying the regulars.
For people that don’t have access to good local sessions -- tape recorder are their only option for capturing tunes to learn. The important thing to remember is that playing along with your recordings at home to learn tunes is different than playing along with live people at a session. Your play-back equipment can’t hear you.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Concerning sight-reading and playing ITM. I also have a classical music background, and I majored in music. It only took one time comparing written music to a recording of the same to realize that it's an aural art form. I think people who think they can sight-read this music aren't paying close attention to what's going on.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Only your pet dog can hear you at home, so have fun and "noodle with your poodle".
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
That sounds awfully...dirty, John. *snort*
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Thanks again, everybody. It's great to get all the different opinions because that helps one to realize that there isn't one right way and that each person has to figure out his or her own way of doing things on a trial and error basis, which becomes a lot more efficient though if one has a better idea of the various possiblities and approaches, having heard from people with experience.
I've been giving this some thought and I guess maybe for me it'd be better not to bother with a nice & expensive toy (as much as I'd like one). I have a cheapie tape recorder with sh*te sound quality but which might be good enough to use for recording and listening at regular speed to get the basic shape and lift of the tunes.
I'm beginning to think the listen, listen, listen advice is best after all. I found that learning the basics of one tune I heard played at a session I attended was pretty easy because I had heard (and liked) that tune before on a recording and I knew in my head without thinking about it what the notes were and how it was supposed to sound (or rather one good way it could sound). But the tunes played at the session that I never heard before I can't learn at all, or at least not with the right rhythm or lift (not that I could play with the right rhythm or lift yet anyway! but it's nice to have a clear goal) because trying to go from sheet music is for me a painful process that I think I am going to do away with entirely except for looking up hard phrases on fast tunes that my ear isn't good enough for yet, which still isn't much help if the local session plays a slightly different version from what got written down in the dots. I guess that's what I was thinking to overcome by slowing down recordings, but maybe that too I'll use as a last resort. I think if I just get the tunes recorded at regular speed I'll at least be able to learn what they sound like played properly, and if I listen enough my ear will figure out what I need to know.
I suppose I was also curious about slow-down tech just to be able to determine what sorts of ornaments musicians were playing at certain points in the tune to get certain effects, because my ear isn't good enough yet to distinguish between all the ornaments, especially on fast recordings. But that's not an immediate concern for me in any case as I am just trying to get the very basics and can learn ornamentation later.
Thanks Will for the hint about WMP. I didn't know it had that capability--i've been using itunes, which I find easier on the eyes--and it will save me having to use a different program, as I expect I will mess around with it a little bit, just for kicks.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Ooh, I totally forgot about the Uilleann poodle project...
Hey Jack, would you believe I finally figured out why we used to have all those steamy noodling arguments? What you just described: "I picked up my flute and discovered I could play the thing with only a couple of minor flaws" is what *I* call noodling.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Noodles with poodles. Is this more of the exotic diet discussion from the Start your Engines thread?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Ooo, noodles for lunch...what a good idea! Although probably minus the poodle...I hope.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
It always sounded to me like you were saying that you noodled on tunes you didn't know. If you have spent enought time listening until the tune played in your head, and you played along with only a few flaws -- that's playing the music. My definition of noodling is when folks try to pick up tunes they don't know on the fly. So do we kiss and make up now, or do you get out your whip and stillettos?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I don't think my heart could take the two of you making up. Define "a few minor flaws". ;)
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
"A few minor flaws" = missing around 3 or 4 notes.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I once commented at one particular session that I didn't know many of the tunes that night. The bodhran player smugly informed me that he could play all of them.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Mark--I am looking forward to next Sunday. But one thing scares me, and that that's there not many melody instruments so far, which means there is some chance that the others will hear my playing all too clearly, which makes me feel sorry for them. Ah well. It's a slow session after all and for my likes there's no way to learn but by being very bad at first and gradually getting slightly less bad I guess. And I am excited that there will be another fiddler there.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
OK, when I say I "don't know" a tune, it means I've never played it before, as far as I can remember. But having a habit of going to an average of 3 sessions a week for the past five years, listening to CDs and session recordings morning noon and night, it doesn't often happen that someone comes up with a tune I've *never* heard before. When it DOES happen I get so excited I sit and listen ravenously, hardly breathing.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Ahhh... but we can still hear your heart beating, Kerri.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I know, but at least it's got rhythm.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
2nd Fid - I would think twice about NOT purchasing a decent recording device. If you end up with a muddy recording, you might not hear enough of the notes to get a handle on the tune. And if you just happen to visit an absolutely killer session that only happens every once in a long while, and you have a bad recorder, you will wonder about what could have been.
Just last night I was listening to a couple of old session tapes. They were both one-of-a-kind events, and I am glad that I have a decent recording of them!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Jode
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Before any more digs about my *astounding* sight-reading ability, and how that makes me a better session player, be it known that I never intended to imply that I thought I could actually play it *correctly* by reading while the *real* tune was going along. All I am saying is that for *ME*, having that one extra sense involved (sight, that is) just adds one more dimension to my learning experience -- especially for a tune that I may have an only cursory knowledge/memory of, if at all. Again, being classically trained, I can't help thinking of tunes, while I'm learning them, in terms of -"this sections is G major, then it goes to A dorian, the B section goes between E and B minor, etc.." and seeing the music in front of me reinforces that.
I actually do agree that listening is indeed the best way to capture the essence of What It Really Is, but for those of us who actually *can* read *and* listen at the same time, the additional input only serves to strengthen the neural connections that burn the tunes into our psyches.
Kerri says (re: sightreading): "there is absolutely no purpose to this skill whatsoever"
I couldn't disagree more. I don't believe this skill belongs completely in the classical realm (I was never really a "classical" musician anyway, just "classically trained"). That's almost like saying now that I've learned to speak fluently, there's no need to read anymore. No disrespect intended here, Kerri, since I know you've been at it much longer than I (and others here even longer, I'm sure), but telling anyone that *any* skill that they have has "no purpose" is hardly an encouraging way to engage in conversation - especially for a neophyte such as myself. I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on this point -- and continue to try to learn by ear as much as humanly possible.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Jode, I take your point. I had been thinking of just trying to learn tunes at sessions. It hadn't really occurred to me that I could get sound quality good enough to have a sort of archive of great session music. Sound quality on my current recorder is so bad that I'll be lucky if I can make out the tune. It's just that to get the best is too expensive for me at this point. But it's something to think about at least....
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by 2ndFiddle
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Thought I'd pop in, first off - I can play a few tunes but I no a top notch fiddler by any stretch.
Fyfferguy does, fine when he comes to the session - the social dynamic of playing music with people is the same regardless of genre (that's a lot of big words). He reads his music at the session, he's playing well enough & has the right attitude.
As far as reading music: Some big time Irish music god once told me that to put down using any tool which helps you learn music is just going to hinder your progress. If I'm correct, Fyfferdude doesn't plan on using sheetmusic forever or making anyone else use it. It doesn't really help or hurt anyone else, so what's the problem. Learning this music is a long road which never ends, we all started somewhere.
Playing by ear is a skill which gets better with time & practice; after all, when you first read music you weren't as good at it as you are now?
As far as Jay & I being pretty tight: we've been playing music together for over ten years - we can talk without words (spooky). John has loads of tunes I've never heard that he picked up in Limerick, Dublin & all over the US. Gary has a gift for picking out off the beaten track tunes that are dynamite (I don't know many of his tunes, yet, but I hope to) Fyfferfellow, I'll bring an mp3 cd full of mostly flute albums for you if you plan to come next Wed.
Too Zina, Kerry, jack etc Sorry I haven't been around too much but i'm busy, I've been going to night school & have been sick alot lately.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Mad Baloney
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
too many o's in the to-to
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Mad Baloney
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Fyffer, I didn't say there's no purpose to sight reading, (or I didn't mean to) I meant the whole phrase: "sightread and play up to session tempo". I really can't see how that would ever be... you know... *useful* in any way. Don't you *like* sitting down with a single tune for ages and ages, playing it slowly, ripping it apart, putting it back together?
If I had the time to do this, I would do it all the time. I've been listening to old recordings of stuff I was playing when I started: Almost entirely stuff someone from my "Celtic" band gave me sheet music for and said "Here's the tune. Learn it". No frame of reference for what the dynamics were supposed to be, as I didn't listen to any Irish music at the time apart from U2. And, by god, does it ever sound atrocious. Sometimes the notes are all there and the timing's fine, but... YASH! It's AWFUL! Why wasn't I aware of this at the time? How could I ever have pranced around doing it in PUBLIC, collecting MONEY for it!?
I'm telling you, Jode's right: the more you hear, the more you hear. If your reading isn't distracting you from focusing the full strength of your attention on *listening*, fair play to you. I used to stare at Brian's butt all the time while playing the bodhran. Everyone's got their visual stimuli.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Fair enough, Kerri. I didn't mean to quote you out of context either, just trying to make a point. Thanks for clearing things up, too.
Are we friends again?
And Brad, thanks for the encouragement (I can' t believe you read this entire thread!), and I will probably be there next Wed, and I'll gladly accept any musical offerings you want to give me, be it in Audio, Visual -- or digital format.
(Sorry, too many smilies)
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Oh yeah, and yes I do "*like* sitting down with a single tune for ages and ages, playing it slowly, ripping it apart, putting it back together". That is yet *another* method of learning tunes. There's more than one way to skin a cat, as you can tell by listening to most beginning fiddlers. (sorry, couldn't resist).
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Heya, Bradfordly -- sorry to hear you've been sick, that's kinda sucky. Hope things're going swimmingly with your little crew, send a pic of the sprogs (who must be MUCH bigger now!) when you get a chance -- and take care of yourself, y'hear?!
One of my very favorite moments ever: playing in a session in Helena, Montana, cell phone on my shoulder with Brad playing along with us in Rhode Island on the other end, can't remember the tune now, but great crack for sure.
(Fyffer, I still say you're in good hands with Brad, his modest disclaimers all aside! Playing notwithstanding, he's just a good guy.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Fyff, please tell me something I can call you. Something you like and identify with that's quiker to spell than "fyfferguy" (and with Capitals, Too!) I'm drunk! Give me a break! I prefer single syllables like "Jack", "Jode", "Will" and "Jim". Zina's on the cusp, because, though she has two syllables, she only has four letters. (Very efficient, if you ask me. Maybe I should start posting as Kari. Like the lotion. But I digress.)
*scroll, scroll*
Oh yes. Of course. We're friends. No problem. Also, the ony thing I can tell from listening to beginning fiddlers (including myself on the 5 years worth of MDs I've been processing lately) is that the fiddle is a horrible, hateful, unfriendly instrument and they should all be burned.
And Brad, jaysus it's been a while! Good to see you wasting your spare time (as the rest of us do) once more!
FFFFyffffffffer Gggguyyy (sigh of exhaustion after all that abstract typing). Seriously, didn't mean anything by my rant. I use sheet music myself. I even write it at sessions like a little memo to myself (very occasionally). Maybe you know how it goes... "Dear god in heaven, what a tune! I MUST learn it! I MUST attack the person playing it, next time she goes to the toilet, and find out the name!" But you know you're drunk, and you're going to forget in about four seconds, so you scribble a bit of notation to remind yourself. If you're me, it's in the wrong key and the lines all run together, but the point is, you *don't* forget what it was that got you so excited in the first place.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Lord a'mighty. Spelling, spelling. I think I'll have a bit more whiskey.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Here.
Just try not to spill it ALL over yourself... ;)
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Thanks, Pat, wobble wobble.
Offf to bed. but with two fs, not three. And a smoke first, and maybe one more shot of whiskey. What the heck, it's Friday. Thank god, by the way (totally unexpected return to topic) that I have an MD recorder with which I was able to tape the booze-soaked essence of the tune I wrote not half an hour ago.
one must always have something in one's pocket with which one can record oneself, for better or worse.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Kerri, you're so amusing when you're drunk, but you also manage to be so literary about it all. How you do dat?
Well, i've now managed to finish two hands sculpted out of Premo clay for this doll I'm making, and Keee-RIST, my eyes are tired. I'm a goin' to bed.
Go on, you lot. Post some amusing stuff so I have something fun to read when I get up tomorrow.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I do it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyy slllllloooowwwwwllllyyyyyy.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Kerri, et al, if you must use something else to call me, please use my real name, which happens to be Chris. One fewer letter to type than Fyffer (though in the latter, three are duplicated).
I have a general rule not to use my given name when registering for *any* online forum, so some clever moniker usually gets concocted on the spot. I have no problem being addressed with the name my Mom gave me, now that I know we're all friends, and I don't think anyone is going to hunt me down and steal my identity.
-Chris
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by FyfferGuy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
fyfferific
# Posted on February 6th 2005 by Mad Baloney
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Check out "the amazing slowdowner" software by RONI. http://www.ronimusic.com/ .49.95 My fiddler musician buddy plays only by ear and so we learn tunes off of CD's. Yes ,it's true that many tunes don't need to be slowed down(and my ability has gotten better to hear/play tunes), but for certain tunes or parts of tunes ,it totally speeds up the learning process. I often only need to hear a tune slowed down a few times and I'm off and running. What could be wrong with that? Have fun.....
# Posted on February 6th 2005 by crazy
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Or check out audacity, http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ - truly free software! ;)
# Posted on February 7th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Fair enough, Chris. I understand, I was fiddler on vermouth for years before I finally allowed myself to be fully absorbed.
# Posted on February 7th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Now you're fiddler on whisky? ;)
# Posted on February 8th 2005 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
"Or check out audacity"
I downloaded it from the Dublin mirror, just so I wouldn't get any sh*te about it's not being properly Irish when I use it.
KFG
# Posted on February 9th 2005 by KFG
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
1) Marantz cassette recorders have both a half-speed switch and and a variable-speed dial. They make excellent recordings.
2) Any recorder is only as good as its microphone. Don't skimp.
3) In my 'umble opinion, buying a dictation recorder just so you can transfer the recording digitally into your computer is cutting off your nose to spite your face, as they sound so miserable.
4) After years of trying to pull tunes out of session recordings, I finally realized that it's the wrong way to go -- it's very hard to get a good clear recording and it's very hard to figure out which note is an ornament and which a mistake amidst all the noise.
The best thing is to wait for a coffee break (beer, whiskey, tea, brownies, whatever), pull aside a musician and ask him or her to record the tune for you once at a slow, learning tempo and once at "full speed". More times through, if possible. Don't forget to say the name of the tune on the recording.
The second best thing is to write down the names of the tunes you especially want to learn. Then go over the musician's house to make the same recording. You will treasure those recordings.
Third best is to have the musician play them over the phone into your answering machine.
Fourth best is to write the names down and get the ABC file from this very Session. You can speed up or slow down the tunes very easily. And you can tune your instrument with ABC's tones, too.
# Posted on March 6th 2005 by Eliezer Pennywhistler
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
I got tired of my minidisc either running out of disc space or battery life just during the playing of a tune I'm keen to learn to play - so I recently bought an MP3 player / encoder that will record many hours of music and a single recharged AA battery lasts much longer than the very longest of sessions.
My player is the iRiver IFP899, 1Gb model at about £150 (UK) - gives about 12 -15 hours of decent quality MP3 encoded recording - and has loads of features (look it up). About £90 gets you the 256Mb model - with all the same features - but about 3-4 hours recording - enough for most sessions.
The built in mic is OK for learning tunes, but even a £20 stereo 'tie clip' mic (from Maplins) dramatically improves quality.
I just leave the recorder running for the whole session - then load the MP3 onto my computer and save the bits I want to keep. (using something such as "MP3 Trimmer" shareware on the Mac)
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Col Arco
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Regarding 'slowing down'. I've just dicovered that the latest version of Quicktime Player (a free download for Mac and PC) at http://www.apple.com/quicktime now has a slowdown (and speedup) feature. Under the menu 'window' - 'show AV controls' - and there it is!
The great thing is that it will slowdown CD's in 'real-time' ( go to'open file' and select the CD / track/s you want) as well as MP3s and my favourites for learning- MIDI tracks.
The midi tracks I usually download from 'thesession.org' site, and I find Quicktime a really quick and easy way to play them - especially in the backgtound while I'm doing 'other work'. Now I can slow them down - thats even better.
As many of the midi files play slower than 'session speed' - 'speed up' could also come in useful when building up speed by playing along with the midi (NOT while I'm doing 'other work').
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Col Arco
Re: recording sessions to learn tunes
Oops -f ollowing my previous post - Iv'e just noticed Quicktime v7 is released as Mac version only at moment (the one I'm using) - 'Windows version coming soon' it says on the website.
# Posted on May 16th 2005 by Col Arco