Hi, eveybody. I have a tenor banjo from the 1920's with the orginal tuners. They are pesky because they are hard to turn and overly sensitive and hence hard to tune the banjo with.
My teacher has recommended I get Grover planetary tuners and has recommended a particular guy to install them on the instrument. Said guy cannot get Grover tuners for banjos and doesn't know who sells them. The ones he can get are very $$$ ($150, $119, $117 for sets of 4). I looked on Elderly's site and found "5-STAR" brand nickel banjo pegs with planetary gears for $81. Is anyone familiar with this brand? Are they good? Does anyone have any recommendations for other brands of tuners? Additionally, he asks around $80 for labor. I think this seems reasonable but welcome opinions. Thanks.
Thanks for the link! They actually have a better price on the very tuners I saw on Elderly, and they're located in Athens, OH, where I went to school for a while...a nice surprise.
Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but what exactly does the ratio mean? Is 4:1 easier or harder to tune than 8:1? What do those numbers represent? I'm sure anything will be easier than what I have now, though. Thanks again.
The ratio is the amount that the gear steps down the rotation you supply.
A 4:1 ratio shortens the string by a quarter inch for each inch of input you supply, whereas an 8:1 ratio would shorten it by and eighth.
The higher the ratio, the "farther" apart each pitch is (ie, requiring more turns) but the easier it is to fine tune, because the sweet spot is correspondingly bigger.
The frustration of your friction pegs is that they have a 1:1 ratio, so when you're close to the correct pitch, you have a tendency to jump past the correct position.
My tenor banjos all have vintage tuners which I think are somethign like 3.2 or 4 to one.
Thanks, s1m0n. Yes, that's exactly what happens! I get close to the correct pitch, and then (tWang!) I've jumped past it. Very frustrating indeed. Plus the things practically break my fingers when I try to turn them.
Thanks so much for the explanation about the ratios. I think I get it now. So, the 4:1 would certainly be worlds better for me than what I have now, but should I decide to spring for the 8:1 those might be even better. With the 8:1, bigger "sweet spot" thing, does that mean the instrument will stay in tune more easily than with the 4:1 tuners?
Thanks again.
The 5-star tuners are fine tuners for what you want. Does your banjo have the straight ukulele style tuners that have a small hole for the tuner or does it have a 3/8" hole there? If you have the old Page tuners (found on Paramounts and othe Lange banjos) then you wlll have to enlarge the hole for a modern tuner too. If the banjo has the small hole, then someone with woodworking skills and a reamer will need to make the holes bigger. Otherwise you can do the replacement job yourself. (There are tuners with 9/32" shafts that fit most old holes too but they cost and are no better than the more common 3/8" shaft tuners.)
The 5-stars, the Schallers, and the new Gotohs (which are the best buy on the market at $79 for four since are the best mechanically) are all easy to put in. Each of them has a little peg that keeps them from turning and you have to make sure the peg goes in a little hole on the bottom side of the head. If there in no hole there, make one with an awl or a small drill bit, and use common sense when you do it.
There are $40 dollar tuners out there, but they are crap mechanically and will fall apart quickly. By paying $60-$70 for a set of fine tuners you will have no further problems. You can also buy better looking buttons for the tuners or adapt the ones you have from the old tuners to keep the old look.
Theoretically a higher ratio peg would stay in tune better, but I doubt the difference between 4:1 and 8:1 would be noticeable in the real world. Several other things can affect how well it stays in tune.
Oh, another thing, your tuning problems may be related to the string hanging up in the nut and not due to the tuners. Loosen the strings, take a #2 pencil and rub it on the nut slots until some of the graphite gets in the slots and restring. It might make tuning easier and it is a lot cheaper than new tuners.
If the nut is hanging up ( the old nuts were set up for CDGA strings which are much smaller, then you might want to take it to a luthier or repair man who can file out the nut to fit the new strings. Or if brave, you can rub the strings across the nut and they will act as a file but you better be sure of yourself.
Where are you seeing the 8:1 ratio tuners? I don't like the 4:1 tuners--too touchy when yoou're really trying to fine tune to pitch. I'd love a good set of 8:1's. Does Waverly make them? (They're factory is just an hour south of me! .
Other problems that affect the tuning are a loose neck - if it is an older dowel system neck they sometimes are loose at the union of the dowel and the neck -a poorly fitting neck, a loose head, a loose tailpiece, and if it has a coordinator rod system the lag bolts might be loose or the coordinator rods not tightened up properly.
I think that all banjo tuners are now 4:1.
Will, if you are having problems with the tuners, there are mechanical differences amongst the various tuners. By far the smoothest I have found are the Gotohs which have just started to come into this country (the fith string tuners have been here for a while, but the regular tuners are now available at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/windystrings/tuners.htm and from Dave Brown in Green Bay (I don't have his email but I can get it, Dave is even cheaper, I think.) I have Gotohs on two banjos and they are better than 5-stars and at least as good as Waverleys which is saying a lot.
It's not so much having problems as just being spoiled by better gear ratios on other instruments (notably guitars). My tuners work smoothly, and I can dial them in, but on a short-scale instrument with relatively high tension steel strings, it would be nice (and just make sense) to have an 8:1 or similar ratio.
I squirm when I imagine drilling and reaming my 1920's-era banjo. But I suppose someday I'll take the leap and get new tuners. For now they're moderately painful to tune with, but the big pain is carrying a screwdriver to tighten them up when they slip.
I'm not sure they're exactly "friction" tuners - anyone know what Weymann Keystone State banjos were fitted with?
Dave Brown is at dgbrown@netnet.net and he has the Gotohs for sale too.
Weymann banjos had several different tuners depending on the model. Look at http://www.cats.se/banjo/Banjos/Weymann/Weymann_catalog/index.htm for a comprehensive view of the banjos. The lesser versions seemed to have the 1:1 tuners, but the ones in the thirties had 4:1 tuners that they claimed were their unique design.
Check and see what size the holes are. If they are 9/32" you can get tuners from Stewmac and http://www.fqms.com and elderly, I think.
I like the 4-1 tuners, it means for me I can retune quickly to Eb or E without to much expense in time terms. I find when I have to restring on stage it is also a great help to have a high up take per turn of the peg. One word on planetary tuners. If you get the cheap ones expect problems. I broke severly of these simple by using tight strings and tuning up. The little spur that holds the peg and stops it turning on the peg head is known to come loose and slip into the gear mechinism and crunch to lot. I have fitted loads of these to banjos and all it take is a a drill, a 10mm long socket or spanner and a 10 mm drill bit. I would think most people could use a drill without much damage. But be careful not to over tighten the hex nut on the fancy side of the peg board as you will see your mother of pearl or ablone explode in your face.
Thanks all for the replies. I'll probably go with the 4:1's from stewmac (website mentioned above). I have no idea what kind of banjo I have. There's no name on it. I bought it from my teacher who said it's from the 1920's and that it's decent but not wonderful. The tuners on there are definitely original, but I don't know the term for the kind that they are. I definitely don't want to tackle installing the tuners myself...I'm sure I'll do something horrendous to the instrument if I try.
Thanks for the great information! I'll check back in later.
Mike, thanks. I think I'm in a whole other catalog for the Keystone State models, which was a cheaper line Weymann made in the twenties (though I'm very fond of mine.) I'm certain I don't have a 4:1 ratio, so I suspect they're plain friction 1:1.
tuning pegs for tenor banjo
tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Hi, eveybody. I have a tenor banjo from the 1920's with the orginal tuners. They are pesky because they are hard to turn and overly sensitive and hence hard to tune the banjo with.
My teacher has recommended I get Grover planetary tuners and has recommended a particular guy to install them on the instrument. Said guy cannot get Grover tuners for banjos and doesn't know who sells them. The ones he can get are very $$$ ($150, $119, $117 for sets of 4). I looked on Elderly's site and found "5-STAR" brand nickel banjo pegs with planetary gears for $81. Is anyone familiar with this brand? Are they good? Does anyone have any recommendations for other brands of tuners? Additionally, he asks around $80 for labor. I think this seems reasonable but welcome opinions. Thanks.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mandolinann
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Check Stewart McDonald - http://stewmac.com/. Compare the gear ratios of various models. That's what makes tuning easy or hard.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Thanks for the link! They actually have a better price on the very tuners I saw on Elderly, and they're located in Athens, OH, where I went to school for a while...a nice surprise.
Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but what exactly does the ratio mean? Is 4:1 easier or harder to tune than 8:1? What do those numbers represent? I'm sure anything will be easier than what I have now, though. Thanks again.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mandolinann
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
The ratio is the amount that the gear steps down the rotation you supply.
A 4:1 ratio shortens the string by a quarter inch for each inch of input you supply, whereas an 8:1 ratio would shorten it by and eighth.
The higher the ratio, the "farther" apart each pitch is (ie, requiring more turns) but the easier it is to fine tune, because the sweet spot is correspondingly bigger.
The frustration of your friction pegs is that they have a 1:1 ratio, so when you're close to the correct pitch, you have a tendency to jump past the correct position.
My tenor banjos all have vintage tuners which I think are somethign like 3.2 or 4 to one.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by s1m0n
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Thanks, s1m0n. Yes, that's exactly what happens! I get close to the correct pitch, and then (tWang!) I've jumped past it. Very frustrating indeed. Plus the things practically break my fingers when I try to turn them.
Thanks so much for the explanation about the ratios. I think I get it now. So, the 4:1 would certainly be worlds better for me than what I have now, but should I decide to spring for the 8:1 those might be even better. With the 8:1, bigger "sweet spot" thing, does that mean the instrument will stay in tune more easily than with the 4:1 tuners?
Thanks again.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mandolinann
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
The 5-star tuners are fine tuners for what you want. Does your banjo have the straight ukulele style tuners that have a small hole for the tuner or does it have a 3/8" hole there? If you have the old Page tuners (found on Paramounts and othe Lange banjos) then you wlll have to enlarge the hole for a modern tuner too. If the banjo has the small hole, then someone with woodworking skills and a reamer will need to make the holes bigger. Otherwise you can do the replacement job yourself. (There are tuners with 9/32" shafts that fit most old holes too but they cost and are no better than the more common 3/8" shaft tuners.)
The 5-stars, the Schallers, and the new Gotohs (which are the best buy on the market at $79 for four since are the best mechanically) are all easy to put in. Each of them has a little peg that keeps them from turning and you have to make sure the peg goes in a little hole on the bottom side of the head. If there in no hole there, make one with an awl or a small drill bit, and use common sense when you do it.
There are $40 dollar tuners out there, but they are crap mechanically and will fall apart quickly. By paying $60-$70 for a set of fine tuners you will have no further problems. You can also buy better looking buttons for the tuners or adapt the ones you have from the old tuners to keep the old look.
What kind of banjo is it?
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mikeyes
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Theoretically a higher ratio peg would stay in tune better, but I doubt the difference between 4:1 and 8:1 would be noticeable in the real world. Several other things can affect how well it stays in tune.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Oh, another thing, your tuning problems may be related to the string hanging up in the nut and not due to the tuners. Loosen the strings, take a #2 pencil and rub it on the nut slots until some of the graphite gets in the slots and restring. It might make tuning easier and it is a lot cheaper than new tuners.
If the nut is hanging up ( the old nuts were set up for CDGA strings which are much smaller, then you might want to take it to a luthier or repair man who can file out the nut to fit the new strings. Or if brave, you can rub the strings across the nut and they will act as a file but you better be sure of yourself.
Mike Keyes
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mikeyes
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Mike is right. Go ahead and pay for decent tuners. It's a one-time expense that makes a big difference in your frustration level.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Where are you seeing the 8:1 ratio tuners? I don't like the 4:1 tuners--too touchy when yoou're really trying to fine tune to pitch. I'd love a good set of 8:1's. Does Waverly make them? (They're factory is just an hour south of me!
.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Will: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Banjo/Waverly_Banjo_Tuning_Pegs.html
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Hmmm, those Waverly's are 4:1.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
The 8:1 tuners at Stewmac are right-angle. If you use them, The other banjos will make fun of yours.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Other problems that affect the tuning are a loose neck - if it is an older dowel system neck they sometimes are loose at the union of the dowel and the neck -a poorly fitting neck, a loose head, a loose tailpiece, and if it has a coordinator rod system the lag bolts might be loose or the coordinator rods not tightened up properly.
I think that all banjo tuners are now 4:1.
Will, if you are having problems with the tuners, there are mechanical differences amongst the various tuners. By far the smoothest I have found are the Gotohs which have just started to come into this country (the fith string tuners have been here for a while, but the regular tuners are now available at http://mywebpages.comcast.net/windystrings/tuners.htm and from Dave Brown in Green Bay (I don't have his email but I can get it, Dave is even cheaper, I think.) I have Gotohs on two banjos and they are better than 5-stars and at least as good as Waverleys which is saying a lot.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
"I think that all banjo tuners are now 4:1"
Apparently, all the planetary tuners are. If you forgo the traditional look, you can get 8:1. If you convert to guitar tuners, you can get 16:1.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
It's not so much having problems as just being spoiled by better gear ratios on other instruments (notably guitars). My tuners work smoothly, and I can dial them in, but on a short-scale instrument with relatively high tension steel strings, it would be nice (and just make sense) to have an 8:1 or similar ratio.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
I squirm when I imagine drilling and reaming my 1920's-era banjo. But I suppose someday I'll take the leap and get new tuners. For now they're moderately painful to tune with, but the big pain is carrying a screwdriver to tighten them up when they slip.
I'm not sure they're exactly "friction" tuners - anyone know what Weymann Keystone State banjos were fitted with?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Dave Brown is at dgbrown@netnet.net and he has the Gotohs for sale too.
Weymann banjos had several different tuners depending on the model. Look at http://www.cats.se/banjo/Banjos/Weymann/Weymann_catalog/index.htm for a comprehensive view of the banjos. The lesser versions seemed to have the 1:1 tuners, but the ones in the thirties had 4:1 tuners that they claimed were their unique design.
Check and see what size the holes are. If they are 9/32" you can get tuners from Stewmac and http://www.fqms.com and elderly, I think.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Check these out. I put a set of these on my 1922 Style M tubaphone -very nice!
http://janetdavismusic.com/tunpegs.html
You cant beat the price.
Joe
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Carrmuse
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
I like the 4-1 tuners, it means for me I can retune quickly to Eb or E without to much expense in time terms. I find when I have to restring on stage it is also a great help to have a high up take per turn of the peg. One word on planetary tuners. If you get the cheap ones expect problems. I broke severly of these simple by using tight strings and tuning up. The little spur that holds the peg and stops it turning on the peg head is known to come loose and slip into the gear mechinism and crunch to lot. I have fitted loads of these to banjos and all it take is a a drill, a 10mm long socket or spanner and a 10 mm drill bit. I would think most people could use a drill without much damage. But be careful not to over tighten the hex nut on the fancy side of the peg board as you will see your mother of pearl or ablone explode in your face.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Thanks all for the replies. I'll probably go with the 4:1's from stewmac (website mentioned above). I have no idea what kind of banjo I have. There's no name on it. I bought it from my teacher who said it's from the 1920's and that it's decent but not wonderful. The tuners on there are definitely original, but I don't know the term for the kind that they are. I definitely don't want to tackle installing the tuners myself...I'm sure I'll do something horrendous to the instrument if I try.
Thanks for the great information! I'll check back in later.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by mandolinann
Re: tuning pegs for tenor banjo
Mike, thanks. I think I'm in a whole other catalog for the Keystone State models, which was a cheaper line Weymann made in the twenties (though I'm very fond of mine.) I'm certain I don't have a 4:1 ratio, so I suspect they're plain friction 1:1.
I will take a look at Stewmac eventually.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego