While real traditional Irish music has just one voice and some drones if it includes a piper there are nowadays two new things: backing with chords (widely discussed here already) and second voices. Bands like Lunasa add sometimes a more or less parallel second voice which is more of the homophonic not polyphonic type. Are there any 'rules' to find these kind of voices, like "Try first two notes below the melody in major scales" ??
Arrangement is a tricky issue. The easy answer is that there are no rules.
But here's an admittedly overly vague attempt at a difficult answer:
I'd disagree about the homophonic voicing; With Lunasa it's usually counter-melodies, which are more polyphonic - but perhaps with a dollop of a "riff" about them. Take their rendition of Thunderhead on their live album. Pipes vs fiddles. Wild.
Formulas aren't really the thing here at all, but techniques that are employed do vary quite broadly. Sometimes it's about using the flute and fiddle - or, as in Devils of Dublin on Otherworld, two flutes - in unison for most of a tune-segment, and then having one or the other jump a third up (or a fifth or fourth or a sixth depending on the harmonic effect wanted) for the run of short phrase - that's more harmony as ornamentation or embilishment.
Lunasa's sound also has a lot to do with their instrumentation : they're one of the few trad groups out there that uses a bass - makes quite a difference to the overall sound.
Here's Flook's Brian Finnegan talking to firescribble.net about improvising countermelodies - or variations, and I'm quoting from his interview at firescribble.net:
"The way I started to improvise was that I'd put on a trad album like Matt Molloy or Altan and I'd play along with it. Once I knew the tunes and could play along with it, then I'd turn it up really loud and play as though there were two flute players in the band. I'd just do a few things like a harmony that wasn't there on the CD and it sounded good, so I thought I'd try some variations. The thing about improvisation or harmony is that you have to make a fool of yourself to progress. If you keep playing within your limits then that's just what you'll do. But if you try something and you think "This isn't going to work at all - I'm going to make a complete idiot of myself" and it might _not_ work, but if you try 100 times eventually it will work. If you give up after the first or second attempt then you probably won't do it again. I just behaved like an idiot for a long time until it worked!"
I guess what it REALLY comes down to is a bunch of talented, experienced musicians messing around rather skilfully until they settle on the best sound. Like having a jam/session where everyone tries a whole bunch of things, and then distilling what works into a solid concert piece/track.
This subject is one will always fascinate me, though I rather suspect I haven't really helped you here. Even so. I know it'd be kinda dorky, but I'm always up for an in-depth case-study analysis/deconstruction of a given track by whomever...
doesn't really work in sessions, since the melodiebackingvoices have to be in relation with each other. for a band, it's normal practice, but if you want rules? read some theory about 'light music harmony', which is, in fact ... jazz. there you'll find all kinds of stuff like 'paralel fourths', 'dissonance' (whisch isn't a bad thing per se), ...
so, 2nd voices in sessions? i suggest you practice with the backer and a main melodieplayer at first, and then try it out in the session. though, that session wouldn't be a session anymore then, would it? but a 'gig' ...
hey, i occasionally play harmonies too (like for 3 or 4 notes per tune or something) after i hear what the backer(s) is doing. it can give a lift! but for a complete set of highspeed reels with 2nd (and 3rd) voice? nah...
the strength of a lot of folk-music is UNISONO, 1 melodie played on different instruments, at most in different octaves.
other folkmusic's strength IS POLYPHONY, mostly singing traditions (bulgarian, corsican, ...)
I'll say this about counter-melodies, though: they've got to be able to sound okay on their own - so don't think in terms of lumps of chords: think horizontal, not vertical
so, Q: think horizontaly, deduce verticaly?
i think both ways work, but they have to work together.
there's no point in seeing the two seperate.
with most ITM-tunes, chords are easier created (provided the backer is capable) and any good melodier (wathever music that is) can create a countermelodie following the chord-progression. in the same way, any good backer can deduce the chords from the counter-melodie or 2nd voice.
i do however not fully agree on the part that counter-melodies have to sound OK on their own, since they are created in relation to the basic tune. they don't (always) solve to the tonic (sounds awkward if played solo).
but hey, this is a sessionboard, not some music-theory board.
wathever way you get to a good sounding melodie-countermelodie-backing composition, if the result is what you intended it to be, you've accomplished what you were after ...
i don't have a chord-view on music, but i do create chord from the countermelodies i 'compose'.
mm
There are two flute players in town who do this a lot at sessions and they're brilliant at it. Sounds great. Makes the other musicians' heads spin. They live in the same house though, so they have lots of time to play together.
When I do it, it's either a couple notes here and there as MM mentioned, and only after playing through straight once or twice, or I drop and octave, or I have something worked out already.
I usually drop a fourth or a third below the melody, but lots of people prefer to go a third or fifth above. The basic rule of harmony is that whatever you are playing has to fit somewhere in the arpeggio (do, mi, sol or 1, 3, 5) of whatever key the tune is in (or whatever chord the backer happens to be playing).
Pulling things like long drawn out 7ths and 4ths sounds interesting sometimes, but it's wacky and you have to be sure to resolve the wackiness by following a dissonant interval with a straight-up third or fifth.
it sounds great indeed on flutes, kerri.
but yes, it has to be worked at to sound that good.
occasionaly, it can be appreciated at a session, but i guess if they play every tune like that, they will not be that welcomed at the session. (or am i wrong?)
and what does the backer do? follow the voicing or just shut up?
mm
To learn how to do harmonies, you can do what I did. Play second and third trumpet parts in band as a kid. Then join the church choir and sing tenor for a decade or so. After a while, playing an appropriate harmony becomes second nature (and learning your vocal harmonies from a hymnbook gives you a nice traditional sound). But in this music, harmonies should be use sparingly, and generally among people you know well.
AL Brown
hey, kerri,
i didn't imply they WERE doing it all the time nor that they WEREN'T welcomed at you session, i assumed they did it 'occasionally', which also happens at our sessions.
one tune is even a standard tune we always play in harmonies, since we learned the tune by the 'master himself' Mike McG. (help me out, lieve, what's the name of the tune?)
and even some 2-voiced scandinavian tunes we play now and again.
mm
i'm following this with interest. As pointed out, there's things you can do in a band that will be accepted (especially if you've done your slogging through the trenches) that won't be out at sessions among the wide spectrum of players out there. But my feeling is that eventually it'll be much more commonplace even out at sessions. Of course, given the nature of traditional music, that will probably be quite some years down the road.
Anyway, Andy Irvine was talking about this when he was in town last at a workshop, and he said that he "just listens to the melody and tries to come up with something interesting to play around it"! That was about all he could give people in general, though of course he talked a great deal later about chordings and the interplay between backer and melodies.
maarten, I didn't think you were 'implying' anything. You did say "Am I wrong?" and I was only replying that you are right.
But it's actually *their* session, so the issue of being ostracised for doing it too much isn't likely to come up.
They are stellar musicians and know the tunes like old lovers. They aren't doing it to "improve" the music, or make it "more interesting". They aren't fumbling around looking for cool notes to show how clever they are.
They are just having a bit of fun, and doing it because they can. It comes from the heart and most people stop to listen because it's more exciting to listen to than to try to keep up with.
Maarten, the name of the tune we mostly play in harmony, is Terry "Cuz" Teahan's. It's kinda supposed to be a hornpipe, but the McGoldrick rendition is different off course. I think Lieve just calls it McGoldrick's Duet. Ok being walking Library again ;).
Interesting discussion here. I would, for my own part, try out a lot of voicings even in sessions, and I stack like the ones that worked in my memory. e.g. Couple of weeks ago this second voice on the b part of cliffs of moher got in my head. I really like it because it strengthens the modality of the tune in a way. Thinking of it now that one must be quite influenced by the sean nua-recording (with Joe and Antoinette McKenna). Haven't heard it in years but I used to listen to it a lot. They do some wonderful second voice stuff with two pipers.
Anyway, as I'm concerned it's like "entre les deux mon coeur balance" as they say in french. It can enhance a session if played good, but I like to use it mostly as a variation, so not every time you play the tune.
So that's all for me. Hope anything interesting came out
I've been giving this some thought. It's sad in a way that some musical system which is not inherent to ITM is being applied to it because us modern-day people have been listening to so much stuff which is harmony-oriented.
On the other hand there are such brilliant two and more - part harmonies being played and recorded that you can't help but admire and appreciate them. I'm thinking of some Bothy Band stuff or of Paul Brady's whistle solo in Lakes of Pontchartrain. These stand out because both melodic lines work on their own. So it surely isn't enough to work from chords or playing 3rd/5th above, below or whatever.
Indeed finding such a melody line calls for a good knowledge of the tune and a will to experiment. I'd suggest you try it with songs first. English Folk Clubs (dare I mention them?) have lots of people who try to improvise harmonies to chorusses, sometimes to great effect. Certainly my time there has helped finding something to play on the fiddle when accompanying a song. With tunes I rarely stray away from the unison. I sometimes use open strings or double stops.
I'm sorry I've started here a discussion very much OT - it was not my intention to suggest any second voices for sessions. I just like the way some bands do it as an additional embellishement and I would like to do this in my nabd, too. I've no idea of the theories of harmonics and backing chords and so I was looking for some help to find some startpoints for my try and error method of finding the second voice...
I've got some good hints and was reminded that backing chords and second voices have to correspond - Thanks
I have various musician friends who can play counter-melodies fine but whenever I play one, they insist on leaving the tune and following me.
When they are around, I have to agree with them who is going to play the tune or all the band end up playing harmony.
I’ve always been a big fan of harmony. And monody. I think harmony can justify itself in just about any setting. If it works, it works. To me, it’s just one more flavor to enjoy in moderation. The more flavors, the more interesting the ice cream party. I’m as bad as anybody to pig out on an exciting new flavor, but I keep coming back to vanilla with renewed appreciation. Somebody stop me before I choke on the ice cream metaphor!
As for how to play harmony, there are some guidelines that could help a person get started, but it takes a lot of experience and a lot of listening to be really good at it. I would suggest, as someone else did, listening to singers, particularly duos. Singers in the English and American old-time traditions have been harmonizing trad melodies for a good long while and can offer some insight into how to do it in ways that both exploit and respect the melody.
If you can hear and anticipate the chord changes in your head, and you know the melody inside out......... I say try it in a small setting and see what happens! It's loads of fun and the guitarist/bazouki players appreciate you when it's done well.
Second Voice
Second Voice
While real traditional Irish music has just one voice and some drones if it includes a piper
there are nowadays two new things: backing with chords (widely discussed here already) and second voices. Bands like Lunasa add sometimes a more or less parallel second voice which is more of the homophonic not polyphonic type. Are there any 'rules' to find these kind of voices, like "Try first two notes below the melody in major scales" ??
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by swisspiper
Re: Second Voice
Arrangement is a tricky issue. The easy answer is that there are no rules.
But here's an admittedly overly vague attempt at a difficult answer:
I'd disagree about the homophonic voicing; With Lunasa it's usually counter-melodies, which are more polyphonic - but perhaps with a dollop of a "riff" about them. Take their rendition of Thunderhead on their live album. Pipes vs fiddles. Wild.
Formulas aren't really the thing here at all, but techniques that are employed do vary quite broadly. Sometimes it's about using the flute and fiddle - or, as in Devils of Dublin on Otherworld, two flutes - in unison for most of a tune-segment, and then having one or the other jump a third up (or a fifth or fourth or a sixth depending on the harmonic effect wanted) for the run of short phrase - that's more harmony as ornamentation or embilishment.
Lunasa's sound also has a lot to do with their instrumentation : they're one of the few trad groups out there that uses a bass - makes quite a difference to the overall sound.
Here's Flook's Brian Finnegan talking to firescribble.net about improvising countermelodies - or variations, and I'm quoting from his interview at firescribble.net:
"The way I started to improvise was that I'd put on a trad album like Matt Molloy or Altan and I'd play along with it. Once I knew the tunes and could play along with it, then I'd turn it up really loud and play as though there were two flute players in the band. I'd just do a few things like a harmony that wasn't there on the CD and it sounded good, so I thought I'd try some variations. The thing about improvisation or harmony is that you have to make a fool of yourself to progress. If you keep playing within your limits then that's just what you'll do. But if you try something and you think "This isn't going to work at all - I'm going to make a complete idiot of myself" and it might _not_ work, but if you try 100 times eventually it will work. If you give up after the first or second attempt then you probably won't do it again. I just behaved like an idiot for a long time until it worked!"
I guess what it REALLY comes down to is a bunch of talented, experienced musicians messing around rather skilfully until they settle on the best sound. Like having a jam/session where everyone tries a whole bunch of things, and then distilling what works into a solid concert piece/track.
This subject is one will always fascinate me, though I rather suspect I haven't really helped you here. Even so. I know it'd be kinda dorky, but I'm always up for an in-depth case-study analysis/deconstruction of a given track by whomever...
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Q
Re: Second Voice
difference between sessions and recordings/bands!
doesn't really work in sessions, since the melodiebackingvoices have to be in relation with each other. for a band, it's normal practice, but if you want rules? read some theory about 'light music harmony', which is, in fact ... jazz. there you'll find all kinds of stuff like 'paralel fourths', 'dissonance' (whisch isn't a bad thing per se), ...
so, 2nd voices in sessions? i suggest you practice with the backer and a main melodieplayer at first, and then try it out in the session. though, that session wouldn't be a session anymore then, would it? but a 'gig' ...
hey, i occasionally play harmonies too (like for 3 or 4 notes per tune or something) after i hear what the backer(s) is doing. it can give a lift! but for a complete set of highspeed reels with 2nd (and 3rd) voice? nah...
the strength of a lot of folk-music is UNISONO, 1 melodie played on different instruments, at most in different octaves.
other folkmusic's strength IS POLYPHONY, mostly singing traditions (bulgarian, corsican, ...)
my guess is: ITM = UNISONO
am I righht?
mm
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
sorry, Q, crossposted
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
I'll say this about counter-melodies, though: they've got to be able to sound okay on their own - so don't think in terms of lumps of chords: think horizontal, not vertical
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Q
Re: Second Voice
No worries MM, so did I!
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Q
Re: Second Voice
so, Q: think horizontaly, deduce verticaly?
i think both ways work, but they have to work together.
there's no point in seeing the two seperate.
with most ITM-tunes, chords are easier created (provided the backer is capable) and any good melodier (wathever music that is) can create a countermelodie following the chord-progression. in the same way, any good backer can deduce the chords from the counter-melodie or 2nd voice.
i do however not fully agree on the part that counter-melodies have to sound OK on their own, since they are created in relation to the basic tune. they don't (always) solve to the tonic (sounds awkward if played solo).
but hey, this is a sessionboard, not some music-theory board.
wathever way you get to a good sounding melodie-countermelodie-backing composition, if the result is what you intended it to be, you've accomplished what you were after ...
i don't have a chord-view on music, but i do create chord from the countermelodies i 'compose'.
mm
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
There are two flute players in town who do this a lot at sessions and they're brilliant at it. Sounds great. Makes the other musicians' heads spin. They live in the same house though, so they have lots of time to play together.
When I do it, it's either a couple notes here and there as MM mentioned, and only after playing through straight once or twice, or I drop and octave, or I have something worked out already.
I usually drop a fourth or a third below the melody, but lots of people prefer to go a third or fifth above. The basic rule of harmony is that whatever you are playing has to fit somewhere in the arpeggio (do, mi, sol or 1, 3, 5) of whatever key the tune is in (or whatever chord the backer happens to be playing).
Pulling things like long drawn out 7ths and 4ths sounds interesting sometimes, but it's wacky and you have to be sure to resolve the wackiness by following a dissonant interval with a straight-up third or fifth.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Second Voice
it sounds great indeed on flutes, kerri.
but yes, it has to be worked at to sound that good.
occasionaly, it can be appreciated at a session, but i guess if they play every tune like that, they will not be that welcomed at the session. (or am i wrong?)
and what does the backer do? follow the voicing or just shut up?
mm
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
To learn how to do harmonies, you can do what I did. Play second and third trumpet parts in band as a kid. Then join the church choir and sing tenor for a decade or so. After a while, playing an appropriate harmony becomes second nature (and learning your vocal harmonies from a hymnbook gives you a nice traditional sound). But in this music, harmonies should be use sparingly, and generally among people you know well.
AL Brown
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by AlBrown
Re: Second Voice
Maarten, they don't do it all the time and there's no question they are enthusiastically welcomed to every session they go to, together or seperately.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Second Voice
hey, kerri,
i didn't imply they WERE doing it all the time nor that they WEREN'T welcomed at you session, i assumed they did it 'occasionally', which also happens at our sessions.
one tune is even a standard tune we always play in harmonies, since we learned the tune by the 'master himself' Mike McG. (help me out, lieve, what's the name of the tune?)
and even some 2-voiced scandinavian tunes we play now and again.
mm
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
i'm following this with interest. As pointed out, there's things you can do in a band that will be accepted (especially if you've done your slogging through the trenches) that won't be out at sessions among the wide spectrum of players out there. But my feeling is that eventually it'll be much more commonplace even out at sessions. Of course, given the nature of traditional music, that will probably be quite some years down the road.
Anyway, Andy Irvine was talking about this when he was in town last at a workshop, and he said that he "just listens to the melody and tries to come up with something interesting to play around it"! That was about all he could give people in general, though of course he talked a great deal later about chordings and the interplay between backer and melodies.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Second Voice
maarten, I didn't think you were 'implying' anything. You did say "Am I wrong?" and I was only replying that you are right.
But it's actually *their* session, so the issue of being ostracised for doing it too much isn't likely to come up.
They are stellar musicians and know the tunes like old lovers. They aren't doing it to "improve" the music, or make it "more interesting". They aren't fumbling around looking for cool notes to show how clever they are.
They are just having a bit of fun, and doing it because they can. It comes from the heart and most people stop to listen because it's more exciting to listen to than to try to keep up with.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Second Voice
i think those sessions are the grandest!
keep it up,
mm
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by MM
Re: Second Voice
Maarten, the name of the tune we mostly play in harmony, is Terry "Cuz" Teahan's. It's kinda supposed to be a hornpipe, but the McGoldrick rendition is different off course. I think Lieve just calls it McGoldrick's Duet. Ok being walking Library again ;).
Interesting discussion here. I would, for my own part, try out a lot of voicings even in sessions, and I stack like the ones that worked in my memory. e.g. Couple of weeks ago this second voice on the b part of cliffs of moher got in my head. I really like it because it strengthens the modality of the tune in a way. Thinking of it now that one must be quite influenced by the sean nua-recording (with Joe and Antoinette McKenna). Haven't heard it in years but I used to listen to it a lot. They do some wonderful second voice stuff with two pipers.
Anyway, as I'm concerned it's like "entre les deux mon coeur balance" as they say in french. It can enhance a session if played good, but I like to use it mostly as a variation, so not every time you play the tune.
So that's all for me. Hope anything interesting came out
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Four-Fingered Fre
Re: Second Voice
I've been giving this some thought. It's sad in a way that some musical system which is not inherent to ITM is being applied to it because us modern-day people have been listening to so much stuff which is harmony-oriented.
On the other hand there are such brilliant two and more - part harmonies being played and recorded that you can't help but admire and appreciate them. I'm thinking of some Bothy Band stuff or of Paul Brady's whistle solo in Lakes of Pontchartrain. These stand out because both melodic lines work on their own. So it surely isn't enough to work from chords or playing 3rd/5th above, below or whatever.
Indeed finding such a melody line calls for a good knowledge of the tune and a will to experiment. I'd suggest you try it with songs first. English Folk Clubs (dare I mention them?) have lots of people who try to improvise harmonies to chorusses, sometimes to great effect. Certainly my time there has helped finding something to play on the fiddle when accompanying a song. With tunes I rarely stray away from the unison. I sometimes use open strings or double stops.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by kuec
Re: Second Voice
I'm sorry I've started here a discussion very much OT - it was not my intention to suggest any second voices for sessions. I just like the way some bands do it as an additional embellishement and I would like to do this in my nabd, too. I've no idea of the theories of harmonics and backing chords and so I was looking for some help to find some startpoints for my try and error method of finding the second voice...
I've got some good hints and was reminded that backing chords and second voices have to correspond - Thanks
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by swisspiper
Re: Second Voice
No problem.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: Second Voice
I have various musician friends who can play counter-melodies fine but whenever I play one, they insist on leaving the tune and following me.
When they are around, I have to agree with them who is going to play the tune or all the band end up playing harmony.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Second Voice
Regarding those previous discussions:
I’ve always been a big fan of harmony. And monody. I think harmony can justify itself in just about any setting. If it works, it works. To me, it’s just one more flavor to enjoy in moderation. The more flavors, the more interesting the ice cream party. I’m as bad as anybody to pig out on an exciting new flavor, but I keep coming back to vanilla with renewed appreciation. Somebody stop me before I choke on the ice cream metaphor!
As for how to play harmony, there are some guidelines that could help a person get started, but it takes a lot of experience and a lot of listening to be really good at it. I would suggest, as someone else did, listening to singers, particularly duos. Singers in the English and American old-time traditions have been harmonizing trad melodies for a good long while and can offer some insight into how to do it in ways that both exploit and respect the melody.
# Posted on May 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Second Voice
If you can hear and anticipate the chord changes in your head, and you know the melody inside out......... I say try it in a small setting and see what happens! It's loads of fun and the guitarist/bazouki players appreciate you when it's done well.
# Posted on June 3rd 2006 by nonesuch