Dear all,
I have been practicing 17-fret tenor banjo quite a while. I am using fiddle fingering most of the time.
However, there are some particular phrases which are difficult to be played on it, like |bgaf gfed| or |g2gf gbag|faeg fdd2|. So I want your advice.
How do you play this kind of phrases when you encounter? In terms of the tenor banjo, I found it is not really helpful to change the position to play the phrases like above.
I sometimes modify the melody, and sometimes slide up and down my index finger around 2nd and 3rd fret.
I got the Gerry O'Connor video, where he suggests using guitar (1 finger, 1 fret) fingering, which I switched to. I think it's nice because you're not cranking your hand into odd positions to hit notes, and you have more versatility in fingering for the vast majority of tunes you play.
Those phrases aren't a problem for me now, at least getting to the notes. I'm still working on playing them in rhythm.
Anyway, I'd say switch your fingering, but that's probably not what you want to do. I've heard plenty of arguments the other way, too....
I'm partial to fiddle fingering myself because fiddle is my main instrument. (Which means that I'm a relative newcomer to tenor banjo, so take everything that follows with a grain of salt and healthy skepticism.) So when I play something like |bgaf gfed| on my short-scale (17 fret) tenor, I tend to use pinky on the b, middle on g, ring finger on a, and index finger on f, even if that means moving my hand a little to reach the b. But sometimes it just feels right to shift up, and I'll play it pinky on b, *index* on g, ring on a, and shift down again to use index on f. I don't worry too much about which way is "right"--they both work for me (and I don't have overly large or flexible hands).
Some tunes lend themselves to shifting up--the B part of Sligo Maid for instance. Or shifting down--I play Eileen Curran in the usual G dorian and I use my pinky to hit the second string d so I can reach the second string Bb and first string f nats with my index finger. Other tunes just beg to be played with straight, first-position fiddle fingering--B part to Silver Spear, B part to Tar Road to Sligo, etc.
Kevin, I do notice that GO uses what they call cello fingering. I have his CD ROM, however, there was no phrase which might need the sliding the pinky of the left hand up and down.
I am a guitarist and I do sometimes play the melody on the guitar, too, but the phrases like above can be played relatively easily by changing the position.
So when you play the high b, I suppose you will use your pinky, but to play the following notes of the phrase like above, do you quickly get back to the original first position, or play like b (pinky) g (index) a(pinky) f(index)? How if it is b followed by f or vice versa? Do you use the stretch of the fingers or quick sliding up and down of the pinky?
Will, I can’t play b while my middle finger is on g. The stretch is too much for me. So I would just slide up my index finger to g.
I am not asking for the “right” answer for this, but I would like to hear your ideas.
I always feel the position change on tenor banjo is useless for me, so when I see somebody doing it, I am just amazed. I would be thankful if anybody could tell me some typical phrases to be played by changing the position.
Reaching the high B on a tenor banjo is always going to be a bit of a stretch (particularly if it is a 19 fret or plectrum banjo). I use cello fingering and I find that it is a relatively simple rotation of the wrist to get your pinky up there. Imagine that there is a pivot around the fifth fret so your wrist stays in the same place but your hand turns to the right to cover the extra distance.
The difficult thing initially was accuracy and having the strength in the finger to hold the note quickly and cleanly. However, I have found that with practice and as your pinky gets stronger it does get easier and quicker. In short, don't just rely on stretching your finger to reach it but bring your wrist into play too and it should be easier.
Lowdens, for an easy shift, try Maude Millar (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1177). As you go from A part to B part, you can move into what I think of as 2nd position: middle finger on the 2nd string d, index on the 1st string g, ring on the b. When you hit the end phrase, try coming down as I suggested above: ring on b, index on g, ring on a, index on f, etc.
This setting of Maude makes a nice banjo tune, and is a natural for shifting positions between the two halves.
Also, when I go between pinky on b and middle on g (that is, staying in first position), I either do the wrist rotating thing nick b mentions, or I let my hand move so it's more of a little jump between the two notes. It does take practice to get smooth and quick with it, but either way is possible at session speed once you get the hang of it.
I'm a fiddle fingerer myself, mostly because that's the way I started and am too lazy to change. And Gerry O'C seemed bossy to me on his video tape, so I resisted out of bloody-mindedness! (I've since found out he's a really nice guy, but it's too late now.)
I just can't work through the pain of this one, and I'm pretty sure guiter-style fingering won't help. I know it can be done because Barney McKenna recorded a nice version with the Dubliners.
I am of the opinion that every banjo/fiddle/mandolin player should strengthen the pinky no matter what style is played. I also hold the opinion that using fiddle style on an instrument with more that a 16" scale is handicapping the player. While there are theoretical (it is easier to sound like a fiddle) and practical (it is easier to play like a fiddle) reasons for the fiddle fingering, the scale length of most banjos makes it very tough at times.
As for the high b, there are several ways to reach it all involving the pinky. You can jump from first position and hit the b, you can slide from the a to the b with your pinky, or you can switch to second (or whatever it is at that point, I never have had a straight answer) postion by placing your first finger on the third fret and go from there. In fact you can do this on any string to make the fingering easier on many tunes if you teach yourself to make smooth positon changes. It opens up a lot of possibilities especially if you combine it with the cello style of fingering.
That kind of transition will require some mental point-of-view changes especially if you play mandolin or fiddle, but after a while it becomes second nature.
As an aside, John Carty thinks that the best banjo players are also good fiddle players because fiddlers seem to know the music better. That may be true in both his case and GO'Cs as Gerry is quite a good fiddle player.
Grego, you can play the third part of Musical Priest, you have to learn to shift positions quickly and not just poke at the b note. It took me a year to figure that out.
This is the 64K question for all TB players! I was in John Carty's class a few years ago at Augusta and I watched him pretty carefully ... and guess what ... he switched almost at will from fiddle/mando fingering to "guitar fingering" as needed. If you work on this technique it will reward you ... on some tunes I play them for a while in guitar fingering, pretty much my default, but switch to mando fingering occasionally, which actually gives some of the hand muscles a slight rest. Some tunes I play guitar fingering on the bottom 3 strings and mando fingering on the top string to catch the high b without having to shift positions.
"Well, I can offer you Tommy Tedesco's solution for people such as yourself:
Tune the banjo as you would the first four strings on a guitar and play it like one. There's no law that says you can't do this."
Hey, I remember Tommy giving that advice in a guitar mag a loooong time ago. He was talking about a studio gig he played on mandolin. I don't think it makes much sense on the mando, unless you don't plan to play it more than once or twice, but I would consider it for tenor banjo. I almost bought one last week.
It's not where the notes are that's relevant but by "guitar fingering" we mean that one finger is used for each fret as opposed two covering two frets on the mandolin.
I started off with mandolin/fiddle technique but found it easier on some tunes to use guitar fingering. So, I tend to use a mixture of both methods which is probably not recommended.
What they're talking about is on the violin each finger is "assigned" to two notes. say the F and F# on the E string, each played with the first finger.
You don't do that on guitar. F is played with the first finger, F# with the second. Nominally one finger per fret.
There are a couple of reasons to doing this. One, adding frets to an insturment really does change how it can best be played a bit. A mando isn't really just plucked, fretted violin. It's got it's own character because of being fretted. (I don't play much mando, but I play both fretted and fretless banjo).
But the other issue is the scale length. A fiddle/mando fingerboard is very short. A guitar/banjo fingerboard is very long. There's a lot of space between the notes so you need to use more fingers to make the stretch and/or make a lot of position changes (The guitar is also tuned mostly in fourths for much the same reason, and to make chording easier).
Hence the short scale tenor banjo.
Tommy was a doubler. You get paid extra for doubling. You want balalaika? Tommy would do both the guitar and balalaika tracks. Thing is, you don't get paid full scale for doubling, so the producer saves money by hiring you, so you get more gigs. It's a win/win. You get more, they put out less, everyone's happy.
Since I play fiddle, guitar and banjo I can use any fingering I want, or switch off between them at will, and in my estimation I don't see why anyone who plays guitar would even do anything with a tenor banjo but tune it like a guitar (which doesn't necessrily mean standard tuning) and play it like one.
But then I play "tenor" banjo on my 5 string, so I'm not necessarily the one you want to follow if you feel inclined to be conventional.
Since banjo players have the fewest religious convictions concerning both the music and style, it is easy to say that there is no "right way" to play the banjo, but there are some practical considerations. I saw John Carty last year at St. Louis and will see him again this April. I intend to video him (if he will allow it ) and really see what is going on with his technique. I suspect that he does switch back and forth, but he can do that as he is playing the music and not the technique. At the elite level of anything the rules are not the same as players like John Carty and GO'C don't even think about how they do what they do, they just do it and their body does it in the most efficient and tasteful way.
That's why you can survey 6 master players and come up with six different perceptions of what they think they do. Then if you tape them you will find out that they not only do something different than what they tell you, they often violate their own rules (and the laws of physics it seems at times.)
What it usually boils down to is that the tune and the interpretation dictate how you play the tune. But it always helps to have a strong pinky no matter what and if you develop that pinky for banjo it will carry over to all the other instruments you play. Before you can run you have to learn to walk and good technique is the cornerstone of style.
I suggest that anyone who wants to learn the banjo should try both guitar (cello) and fiddle (mandolin) styles and be able to see the advantages of both. Also you will need to learn how to shift positions up the neck in both styles so begin to try that also, especially if you are looking for alternative sounds on your instrument.
My ear leans me toward fiddle fingering because I've played all these tunes on fiddle for 25 years. But when I hold a tenor banjo, my fingers steer themselves toward guitar fingering because I've played guitar even longer than fiddle. The result is that either way feels comfortable and natural on banjo, and I don't worry about it.
I agree that strengthening your pinky and being able to shift positions fluidly are wise--just tools of the trade, and not that difficult if you persevere.
Now if I could just get the triplets to fire consistently, and lose about 400 volts of extraneous neuromuscular spasming to do 'em....
DGBD or CGBD are the "regular" tunings - these are just the 5 string tunings without the fifth string. Also used a lot is GDBE or guitar tuning. There are not that many Irish plecturm players out there as the 27" scale coupled with the close and non-logical tuning makes it hard to get the full range of a lot of tunes unless you capo. One advantage of tuning in fifths is a practical two and a half octaves in the key of G and two octaves in A and D these being the most common keys for Irish music. Anything that can be played on the fiddle can be played on the tenor banjo with little problem and the thicker strings make the triplets a little easier.
I think it takes more talent and training to use a plectrum and get a good result. Not that it can't be done, but you are handicapping yourself, just like using a 5 string banjo.
Of course I should talk, I used a nose flute in the session last night.
Mike's observations about what a player says versus their actual practice are true, and embarrassing, and don't only apply to master players. I've often found myself telling a student what it is I think I do, and then demonstrating something entirely different. I think this is because a command of the instrument requires a knowledge of technique that is so thorough, it is no longer conscious. If you're thinking "shall I play a roll here, and shall I use the long roll or the short roll or the double-axel-with-a-twist?", you've missed your moment. If you're thinking "should I finger this passage with guitar fingering or mandolin fingering?", you'll never get anything played.
So in order to actually play, technique has to be automatic. (see Parker - "First you learn your notes, then you learn your scales, then you learn your chords, then you forget all that and just play")
So what this might mean to the student (and I think we're all students here) is that techniques are to be studied as learning devices, not necessarily as rules. When you acquire a technique, it's most helpful to think "what can this approach teach me", and less helpful to think "this is the way this is done".
With that in mind, tunes that are active on the high b are tricky on long-scale instruments. The best way I've found through them is, rather than trying to play what the fiddle does, find a few ways to finger the tune, and use them all. Since each fingering will put the shifts at different places, each will give a slightly different character to the phrasing, which will make you sound much hipper than if you play it the same way each time (see Will's comments on Burke's playing of Silver Spear).
For Silver Spear, the easiest two fingerings for me are to shift at the beginning of the phrase, finger the f# at the 9th fret, and shift back for the gfed. This allows a slight variant - |f2af bfaf| - but it isolates that bar, and sounds too pedestrian to do all the time, though, so mix that up with shifting up just for the b, which means you don't get the f# following it, which makes the phrase like this: |fa a2 b, af| where the comma is a "breath".
Another nice way through is like so |fa a2 bf a,|gfed etc, where the second f# is at the 9th fret and the position shift comes at the end of the bar. This lines up the phrase with the downbeat, makes the g a stronger beat than usual.
The last way I'll mention, too stupid and simple to do very often but cool if used sparingly is simply: |fa a2 b, a,| - just punch the b and the a and forget about the pedal.
I suppose it might be helpful in this context to think of the need to shift position as analogous to a flute player's need to breathe, and use the shifts the way a flute player uses the breathing points, as an accent rather than as an obstruction.
"I've often found myself telling a student what it is I think I do, and then demonstrating something entirely different."
If I'm going over something I haven't gone over with another student previously I just say "Damned if I know what I do. Let's find out."
". . .rather than trying to play what the fiddle does, find a few ways to finger the tune. . ."
First learn your notes. Then learn your chords the full length of the neck, how the notes *group.* Then use the position that presents the most convenient grouping of notes for the phrase you wish to play. The banjo isn't a fiddle. Don't think of it like one and you'll come out ahead. Learn to think of melody as a chord. Finger the chords, play the notes. Like a jazz guitarist. Get that pinky in shape and use a lot of partial bars. You've got a built in movable capo. Appreciate it.
"use the shifts the way a flute player uses the breathing points, as an accent rather than as an obstruction."
Yes, that's one way. Incorporate the position shift into your rhythm pattern. Another is to incorporate it into your ornamentation with slides, and another is to simpy arrange things so that a position shift occurs while you're playing on an open string.
You don't have to hunt around for the note on a fretted instrument. It's like horseshoes. Use this to your advantage in shifting positions. A little practice and it's a completely brainless thing to do.
As a cellist (and former classical guitarist) I'd think that cello fingering is more likely to be useful on the tenor banjo than fiddle fingering. Cellists and guitarists use the pinky a lot more than trad fiddlers do. Classical violinists do as well - it's in their rule book somewhere - conductors tend to go ape if open E strings are used . Having said that, I, and some other cellists, occasionally use violin fingering on the cello when it seems like a good idea - but you're not likely to find it in most text books.
The trick in the first or root position for using the pinky effectively to reach a note that seems almost out of reach, lies in the position of the thumb relative to the fingers (I'm talking cello and fiddle here, but I'd say it also applies elsewhere). If you have the thumb opposite the index finger (a position adopted by many beginners) then the reach by the pinky cab be difficult for some. Instead, move the thumb so that it is more nearly opposite the 2nd finger and you'll find that the pinky magically seems a lot longer, and a note that was hitherto out of reach is now playable.
If you're a cellist (or classical violinist) coming to the tenor banjo or guitar then you'll have a strong pinky - doing a trill with the pinky and ring finger is a good test. If you're a trad fiddle player there is the possibility that the pinky is under-powered due to lack of use compared with the other fingers, so plenty of exercises on the instrument using the pinky is indicated.
Trevor
I was trying cello fingering last night as suggested by some people up here, but I find it a bit difficult to come down from the high b note. After you play the b with your pinky, which finger do you use to play the lower notes like a, g and f#? Especially a note, since a should be basically played with pinky as assigned according to the cello fingering, do you use the pinky, too, or the other fingers when you come down from b? It will take sometime for me to get used to it, anyway.
I believe some tunes are easy to play on some instruments while they are difficult to be played on other instruments. I think most of the melodies of Irish tunes are easier on tenor banjo (in GDAE tuning) than on guitar as the tuning is same as fiddle.
I can play most of the tunes with fiddle fingering even if there are high b notes. Still, there are some particular phrases which are quite difficult to be played. I can play the tunes by modifying the melody, though.
I play fiddle and banjo and find that fiddle fingering in general has no place on the tenor banjo. I use finger per fret on the bottom 3 strings and then when it comes to the E string its anybody's guess but I would tend to base my ring finger around the the hi A as a rule using the pinky for the hi B and C.
I would suggest that to tune your banjo to the bottom four strings of a guitar would probably be the biggest mistake anybody could possibly make. You will loose the flow of the music altogeather. Alot of Irish tunes where wrote on the fiddle and it is for this reason that fiddle tuning suits Irish banjo as a lot of the tunes and decorationincluding triplets fall naturally when played in GDAE. G.OC plays CGDA and this will present problems too and Gerry will be seen to play the Irish Standard when in the company of musicians. If you watch G.O.C playing you will see that he will use fiddle fingering on the E string and I think that this is very common. You do have to build up your little finger and make a serious attempt to hit the target.
A great tune to practice is the Galway Rambler. You should practice this for about a month ontil you can do it fast and without error and I promise you that your days of missing notes will be over. As you will have streched the fibers of you hand and fingers and they will give you that little bit extra in terms of reach and downward pressure. If you could get your hands on a standard lenght neck banjo and practice on this you will see great results. Another trick I do hear of is to leave out you first finger altogeather when practicing playing and just play the tunes with the remaining fingers. this has the effect of really stretching the hand and allowing you alot more travel.
Trust me when I say that great banjo players may not know where their fingers are going now, but they did when they were learning and its just a case of years of constructive experience.
lowdens,
I was trying out the phrase you asked about [bgaf gfed] to see what I'd really do (again, I'm only a beginner) and I found that you're spot on that changing position isn't the best, because the phrases are rooted in 1st position.
So i found myself improvising, and instead of moving to 2nd position I was rotating the left hand a little to nail the B and playing the B with my pinky, the A with the ring finger, the G with the middle and the F with my index. I had to rock my hand a little to make the stretch, but it worked.
At speed I don't know, but it seems like it'd work.
Then again, I play Silver Spear's B part by sliding the pinky up to the 7th fret.
Geez, compaq, you've done it again. Now I have to go home and try to relearn my tunes with guitar fingering on the bottom three and flexibility on the e. It just sounds so logical.
When are you coming to Calgary to give banjo lessons?
There is no rule that fits all. You have to find what works for you. I play mandolin but find that It works better for me to change my fingering when playing banjo. I like the fact that there is much less hand motion with this method. Some of the best banjo players I know use mandolin fingering.
Don't go switching just yet grego. There are a couple of caveats about guitar fingering.
First off, much of the advice on this thread strikes me as a bit dogmatic and doesn't take into account the differences among us, chiefly size and stretch of hands and whether we play short-scale or longer scale banjos. In my experience, fiddle fingering works just fine on a short-scale banjo for people with average-sized hands and larger. With your index on the second fret, if you can't reach the fifth fret with your ring finger on a short-scale banjo, then you'll want to use guitar fingering and play fifth fret with your pinky (or maybe take up another instrument). But for many adults, this is quite unnecessary.
Second, guitar fingering isn't simply a matter of "one finger for each fret." For the vast majority of Irish trad tunes, the index finger hangs over the second fret, so by default it's also the designated finger for first fret when those notes are called for. Some tunes wander between f nats and f sharps on the 1st string, or B flats and B nats on the 2nd string. As soon as you start making little one- or two-fret shifts in position like that, you open all sorts of possibilities for doing the same with other fingers. When I'm playing guitar, I think of these shifts as allowing me to play melody lines out of the relevant chord position. But when I'm on fiddle, these same shifts make sense in a more linear "first position" or "third position" frame of mind. It strikes me that on a short-scale banjo, *either mindset can work just fine* and it's up to the individual player to use the one that suits them best. Or think both ways at the same time and learn to finger tricky phrases as many different ways as you can find. The more avenues you have for getting the notes, the more you can personalize your interpretation of the music, and the more likely you are to find a way that produces the sound you're after.
Will.
I agee that everybody is different and should strive to find exactly what suits them. I teach children and encourage them to use the standard lenght neck with guitar fingering and they have no problem making the jump so hand size should not really be a consideration . It is just a more natural and less painful way to play. In fiddle fingering the hand is moving to much and will in time cause problems. The finger fret assignment is excellent for tunes in c and f and A as the index and pinky has to adjust on such a minor level. Most players I know use this method, although the fiddle method I have seen too. you will probably notice a player with fiddle fingering because they tend to have the neck very close to their ear. Again its what suit the person in question that matters not what I think.
Grego
Don't know when I'll be in Calgary we are putting in place our 2006 tour details at the moment and are trying to hit a few new destinations, so who knows. Do you know any agents there?
If your every in my neck of the woods, please look me up. i'm very easy to find when in town
Compaq: I know people who know agents. Send me a publicity blurb on your band by e-mail, or a link to a website or something, and I'll pass it on to them.
Tenor Banjo fingering
Tenor Banjo fingering
Dear all,
I have been practicing 17-fret tenor banjo quite a while. I am using fiddle fingering most of the time.
However, there are some particular phrases which are difficult to be played on it, like |bgaf gfed| or |g2gf gbag|faeg fdd2|. So I want your advice.
How do you play this kind of phrases when you encounter? In terms of the tenor banjo, I found it is not really helpful to change the position to play the phrases like above.
I sometimes modify the melody, and sometimes slide up and down my index finger around 2nd and 3rd fret.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by lowdens
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I got the Gerry O'Connor video, where he suggests using guitar (1 finger, 1 fret) fingering, which I switched to. I think it's nice because you're not cranking your hand into odd positions to hit notes, and you have more versatility in fingering for the vast majority of tunes you play.
Those phrases aren't a problem for me now, at least getting to the notes. I'm still working on playing them in rhythm.
Anyway, I'd say switch your fingering, but that's probably not what you want to do. I've heard plenty of arguments the other way, too....
Good luck,
Kevin
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by dirtyheel
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I'm partial to fiddle fingering myself because fiddle is my main instrument. (Which means that I'm a relative newcomer to tenor banjo, so take everything that follows with a grain of salt and healthy skepticism.) So when I play something like |bgaf gfed| on my short-scale (17 fret) tenor, I tend to use pinky on the b, middle on g, ring finger on a, and index finger on f, even if that means moving my hand a little to reach the b. But sometimes it just feels right to shift up, and I'll play it pinky on b, *index* on g, ring on a, and shift down again to use index on f. I don't worry too much about which way is "right"--they both work for me (and I don't have overly large or flexible hands).
Some tunes lend themselves to shifting up--the B part of Sligo Maid for instance. Or shifting down--I play Eileen Curran in the usual G dorian and I use my pinky to hit the second string d so I can reach the second string Bb and first string f nats with my index finger. Other tunes just beg to be played with straight, first-position fiddle fingering--B part to Silver Spear, B part to Tar Road to Sligo, etc.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Kevin, I do notice that GO uses what they call cello fingering. I have his CD ROM, however, there was no phrase which might need the sliding the pinky of the left hand up and down.
I am a guitarist and I do sometimes play the melody on the guitar, too, but the phrases like above can be played relatively easily by changing the position.
So when you play the high b, I suppose you will use your pinky, but to play the following notes of the phrase like above, do you quickly get back to the original first position, or play like b (pinky) g (index) a(pinky) f(index)? How if it is b followed by f or vice versa? Do you use the stretch of the fingers or quick sliding up and down of the pinky?
Will, I can’t play b while my middle finger is on g. The stretch is too much for me. So I would just slide up my index finger to g.
I am not asking for the “right” answer for this, but I would like to hear your ideas.
I always feel the position change on tenor banjo is useless for me, so when I see somebody doing it, I am just amazed. I would be thankful if anybody could tell me some typical phrases to be played by changing the position.
Thank you for your comments!!
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by lowdens
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Reaching the high B on a tenor banjo is always going to be a bit of a stretch (particularly if it is a 19 fret or plectrum banjo). I use cello fingering and I find that it is a relatively simple rotation of the wrist to get your pinky up there. Imagine that there is a pivot around the fifth fret so your wrist stays in the same place but your hand turns to the right to cover the extra distance.
The difficult thing initially was accuracy and having the strength in the finger to hold the note quickly and cleanly. However, I have found that with practice and as your pinky gets stronger it does get easier and quicker. In short, don't just rely on stretching your finger to reach it but bring your wrist into play too and it should be easier.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by nick b
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
"I am a guitarist and I do sometimes play the melody on the guitar"
Well, I can offer you Tommy Tedesco's solution for people such as yourself:
Tune the banjo as you would the first four strings on a guitar and play it like one. There's no law that says you can't do this.
KFG
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by KFG
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I did something similar - i tuned the 4 strings of my guitar to a banjo, and cut the other too off!
this was when i couldnt afford a banjo!
Its good, cause as mentioned above i waltzed straight into the 1 fret 1 finger principle...
Alot of irish musicians ive seen dont actually use their pinky and are often surprised when i use mine...
Dood luck
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Don't use their pinky?
How do they get wax out of their ears?
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Didnt you know ?...............they dont have ears....
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Lowdens, for an easy shift, try Maude Millar (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1177). As you go from A part to B part, you can move into what I think of as 2nd position: middle finger on the 2nd string d, index on the 1st string g, ring on the b. When you hit the end phrase, try coming down as I suggested above: ring on b, index on g, ring on a, index on f, etc.
This setting of Maude makes a nice banjo tune, and is a natural for shifting positions between the two halves.
Also, when I go between pinky on b and middle on g (that is, staying in first position), I either do the wrist rotating thing nick b mentions, or I let my hand move so it's more of a little jump between the two notes. It does take practice to get smooth and quick with it, but either way is possible at session speed once you get the hang of it.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Sheehan's is a piece I've been working on recently, where I find a little shift in position for the B-part works wonders:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1178
I'm a fiddle fingerer myself, mostly because that's the way I started and am too lazy to change. And Gerry O'C seemed bossy to me on his video tape, so I resisted out of bloody-mindedness! (I've since found out he's a really nice guy, but it's too late now.)
The one that kills me is the third part of the Musical Priest: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/73
I just can't work through the pain of this one, and I'm pretty sure guiter-style fingering won't help. I know it can be done because Barney McKenna recorded a nice version with the Dubliners.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by grego
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Thanks for reminding me of Sheehan's on the banjo grego--great tune. I also like to shift up for the B part of Sligo Maid(s) and the Killavil Fancy.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
musical preist - one of my first - lovely tune....
Barneys neck is a short scale neck - that might be worth taking into account, and he pinkies it up too!
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I am of the opinion that every banjo/fiddle/mandolin player should strengthen the pinky no matter what style is played. I also hold the opinion that using fiddle style on an instrument with more that a 16" scale is handicapping the player. While there are theoretical (it is easier to sound like a fiddle) and practical (it is easier to play like a fiddle) reasons for the fiddle fingering, the scale length of most banjos makes it very tough at times.
As for the high b, there are several ways to reach it all involving the pinky. You can jump from first position and hit the b, you can slide from the a to the b with your pinky, or you can switch to second (or whatever it is at that point, I never have had a straight answer) postion by placing your first finger on the third fret and go from there. In fact you can do this on any string to make the fingering easier on many tunes if you teach yourself to make smooth positon changes. It opens up a lot of possibilities especially if you combine it with the cello style of fingering.
That kind of transition will require some mental point-of-view changes especially if you play mandolin or fiddle, but after a while it becomes second nature.
As an aside, John Carty thinks that the best banjo players are also good fiddle players because fiddlers seem to know the music better. That may be true in both his case and GO'Cs as Gerry is quite a good fiddle player.
Grego, you can play the third part of Musical Priest, you have to learn to shift positions quickly and not just poke at the b note. It took me a year to figure that out.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
This is the 64K question for all TB players! I was in John Carty's class a few years ago at Augusta and I watched him pretty carefully ... and guess what ... he switched almost at will from fiddle/mando fingering to "guitar fingering" as needed. If you work on this technique it will reward you ... on some tunes I play them for a while in guitar fingering, pretty much my default, but switch to mando fingering occasionally, which actually gives some of the hand muscles a slight rest. Some tunes I play guitar fingering on the bottom 3 strings and mando fingering on the top string to catch the high b without having to shift positions.
SteveB
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by stevebenn
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
"Well, I can offer you Tommy Tedesco's solution for people such as yourself:
Tune the banjo as you would the first four strings on a guitar and play it like one. There's no law that says you can't do this."
Hey, I remember Tommy giving that advice in a guitar mag a loooong time ago. He was talking about a studio gig he played on mandolin. I don't think it makes much sense on the mando, unless you don't plan to play it more than once or twice, but I would consider it for tenor banjo. I almost bought one last week.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Hmmm. I'm missing something here. What do you guys mean by "guitar fingering" when the banjo is tuned in fifths?
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
It's not where the notes are that's relevant but by "guitar fingering" we mean that one finger is used for each fret as opposed two covering two frets on the mandolin.
I started off with mandolin/fiddle technique but found it easier on some tunes to use guitar fingering. So, I tend to use a mixture of both methods which is probably not recommended.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I meant to say "as opposed *to*"
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Oh, I get it. Had a moment of cerebral density there.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
What they're talking about is on the violin each finger is "assigned" to two notes. say the F and F# on the E string, each played with the first finger.
You don't do that on guitar. F is played with the first finger, F# with the second. Nominally one finger per fret.
There are a couple of reasons to doing this. One, adding frets to an insturment really does change how it can best be played a bit. A mando isn't really just plucked, fretted violin. It's got it's own character because of being fretted. (I don't play much mando, but I play both fretted and fretless banjo).
But the other issue is the scale length. A fiddle/mando fingerboard is very short. A guitar/banjo fingerboard is very long. There's a lot of space between the notes so you need to use more fingers to make the stretch and/or make a lot of position changes (The guitar is also tuned mostly in fourths for much the same reason, and to make chording easier).
Hence the short scale tenor banjo.
Tommy was a doubler. You get paid extra for doubling. You want balalaika? Tommy would do both the guitar and balalaika tracks. Thing is, you don't get paid full scale for doubling, so the producer saves money by hiring you, so you get more gigs. It's a win/win. You get more, they put out less, everyone's happy.
Since I play fiddle, guitar and banjo I can use any fingering I want, or switch off between them at will, and in my estimation I don't see why anyone who plays guitar would even do anything with a tenor banjo but tune it like a guitar (which doesn't necessrily mean standard tuning) and play it like one.
But then I play "tenor" banjo on my 5 string, so I'm not necessarily the one you want to follow if you feel inclined to be conventional.
KFG
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by KFG
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Since banjo players have the fewest religious convictions concerning both the music and style, it is easy to say that there is no "right way" to play the banjo, but there are some practical considerations. I saw John Carty last year at St. Louis and will see him again this April. I intend to video him (if he will allow it ) and really see what is going on with his technique. I suspect that he does switch back and forth, but he can do that as he is playing the music and not the technique. At the elite level of anything the rules are not the same as players like John Carty and GO'C don't even think about how they do what they do, they just do it and their body does it in the most efficient and tasteful way.
That's why you can survey 6 master players and come up with six different perceptions of what they think they do. Then if you tape them you will find out that they not only do something different than what they tell you, they often violate their own rules (and the laws of physics it seems at times.)
What it usually boils down to is that the tune and the interpretation dictate how you play the tune. But it always helps to have a strong pinky no matter what and if you develop that pinky for banjo it will carry over to all the other instruments you play. Before you can run you have to learn to walk and good technique is the cornerstone of style.
I suggest that anyone who wants to learn the banjo should try both guitar (cello) and fiddle (mandolin) styles and be able to see the advantages of both. Also you will need to learn how to shift positions up the neck in both styles so begin to try that also, especially if you are looking for alternative sounds on your instrument.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
My ear leans me toward fiddle fingering because I've played all these tunes on fiddle for 25 years. But when I hold a tenor banjo, my fingers steer themselves toward guitar fingering because I've played guitar even longer than fiddle. The result is that either way feels comfortable and natural on banjo, and I don't worry about it.
I agree that strengthening your pinky and being able to shift positions fluidly are wise--just tools of the trade, and not that difficult if you persevere.
Now if I could just get the triplets to fire consistently, and lose about 400 volts of extraneous neuromuscular spasming to do 'em....
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
What's the "standard" tuning for Irish plectrum (not tenor) banjo? My long gone friend, Perry Bechtel, tuned his to CGBD. What does Mick Moloney use?
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
DGBD or CGBD are the "regular" tunings - these are just the 5 string tunings without the fifth string. Also used a lot is GDBE or guitar tuning. There are not that many Irish plecturm players out there as the 27" scale coupled with the close and non-logical tuning makes it hard to get the full range of a lot of tunes unless you capo. One advantage of tuning in fifths is a practical two and a half octaves in the key of G and two octaves in A and D these being the most common keys for Irish music. Anything that can be played on the fiddle can be played on the tenor banjo with little problem and the thicker strings make the triplets a little easier.
I think it takes more talent and training to use a plectrum and get a good result. Not that it can't be done, but you are handicapping yourself, just like using a 5 string banjo.
Of course I should talk, I used a nose flute in the session last night.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by mikeyes
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I tune my 5-string to DGBE and play tunes that I know from guitar, but after a few minutes I'm thinking I should get a tenor.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Mike's observations about what a player says versus their actual practice are true, and embarrassing, and don't only apply to master players. I've often found myself telling a student what it is I think I do, and then demonstrating something entirely different. I think this is because a command of the instrument requires a knowledge of technique that is so thorough, it is no longer conscious. If you're thinking "shall I play a roll here, and shall I use the long roll or the short roll or the double-axel-with-a-twist?", you've missed your moment. If you're thinking "should I finger this passage with guitar fingering or mandolin fingering?", you'll never get anything played.
So in order to actually play, technique has to be automatic. (see Parker - "First you learn your notes, then you learn your scales, then you learn your chords, then you forget all that and just play")
So what this might mean to the student (and I think we're all students here) is that techniques are to be studied as learning devices, not necessarily as rules. When you acquire a technique, it's most helpful to think "what can this approach teach me", and less helpful to think "this is the way this is done".
With that in mind, tunes that are active on the high b are tricky on long-scale instruments. The best way I've found through them is, rather than trying to play what the fiddle does, find a few ways to finger the tune, and use them all. Since each fingering will put the shifts at different places, each will give a slightly different character to the phrasing, which will make you sound much hipper than if you play it the same way each time (see Will's comments on Burke's playing of Silver Spear).
For Silver Spear, the easiest two fingerings for me are to shift at the beginning of the phrase, finger the f# at the 9th fret, and shift back for the gfed. This allows a slight variant - |f2af bfaf| - but it isolates that bar, and sounds too pedestrian to do all the time, though, so mix that up with shifting up just for the b, which means you don't get the f# following it, which makes the phrase like this: |fa a2 b, af| where the comma is a "breath".
Another nice way through is like so |fa a2 bf a,|gfed etc, where the second f# is at the 9th fret and the position shift comes at the end of the bar. This lines up the phrase with the downbeat, makes the g a stronger beat than usual.
The last way I'll mention, too stupid and simple to do very often but cool if used sparingly is simply: |fa a2 b, a,| - just punch the b and the a and forget about the pedal.
I suppose it might be helpful in this context to think of the need to shift position as analogous to a flute player's need to breathe, and use the shifts the way a flute player uses the breathing points, as an accent rather than as an obstruction.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
"I've often found myself telling a student what it is I think I do, and then demonstrating something entirely different."
If I'm going over something I haven't gone over with another student previously I just say "Damned if I know what I do. Let's find out."
". . .rather than trying to play what the fiddle does, find a few ways to finger the tune. . ."
First learn your notes. Then learn your chords the full length of the neck, how the notes *group.* Then use the position that presents the most convenient grouping of notes for the phrase you wish to play. The banjo isn't a fiddle. Don't think of it like one and you'll come out ahead. Learn to think of melody as a chord. Finger the chords, play the notes. Like a jazz guitarist. Get that pinky in shape and use a lot of partial bars. You've got a built in movable capo. Appreciate it.
"use the shifts the way a flute player uses the breathing points, as an accent rather than as an obstruction."
Yes, that's one way. Incorporate the position shift into your rhythm pattern. Another is to incorporate it into your ornamentation with slides, and another is to simpy arrange things so that a position shift occurs while you're playing on an open string.
You don't have to hunt around for the note on a fretted instrument. It's like horseshoes. Use this to your advantage in shifting positions. A little practice and it's a completely brainless thing to do.
KFG
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by KFG
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
As a cellist (and former classical guitarist) I'd think that cello fingering is more likely to be useful on the tenor banjo than fiddle fingering. Cellists and guitarists use the pinky a lot more than trad fiddlers do. Classical violinists do as well - it's in their rule book somewhere - conductors tend to go ape if open E strings are used
. Having said that, I, and some other cellists, occasionally use violin fingering on the cello when it seems like a good idea - but you're not likely to find it in most text books.
The trick in the first or root position for using the pinky effectively to reach a note that seems almost out of reach, lies in the position of the thumb relative to the fingers (I'm talking cello and fiddle here, but I'd say it also applies elsewhere). If you have the thumb opposite the index finger (a position adopted by many beginners) then the reach by the pinky cab be difficult for some. Instead, move the thumb so that it is more nearly opposite the 2nd finger and you'll find that the pinky magically seems a lot longer, and a note that was hitherto out of reach is now playable.
If you're a cellist (or classical violinist) coming to the tenor banjo or guitar then you'll have a strong pinky - doing a trill with the pinky and ring finger is a good test. If you're a trad fiddle player there is the possibility that the pinky is under-powered due to lack of use compared with the other fingers, so plenty of exercises on the instrument using the pinky is indicated.
Trevor
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Thank you for your comments.
I was trying cello fingering last night as suggested by some people up here, but I find it a bit difficult to come down from the high b note. After you play the b with your pinky, which finger do you use to play the lower notes like a, g and f#? Especially a note, since a should be basically played with pinky as assigned according to the cello fingering, do you use the pinky, too, or the other fingers when you come down from b? It will take sometime for me to get used to it, anyway.
I believe some tunes are easy to play on some instruments while they are difficult to be played on other instruments. I think most of the melodies of Irish tunes are easier on tenor banjo (in GDAE tuning) than on guitar as the tuning is same as fiddle.
I can play most of the tunes with fiddle fingering even if there are high b notes. Still, there are some particular phrases which are quite difficult to be played. I can play the tunes by modifying the melody, though.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by lowdens
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
I play fiddle and banjo and find that fiddle fingering in general has no place on the tenor banjo. I use finger per fret on the bottom 3 strings and then when it comes to the E string its anybody's guess but I would tend to base my ring finger around the the hi A as a rule using the pinky for the hi B and C.
I would suggest that to tune your banjo to the bottom four strings of a guitar would probably be the biggest mistake anybody could possibly make. You will loose the flow of the music altogeather. Alot of Irish tunes where wrote on the fiddle and it is for this reason that fiddle tuning suits Irish banjo as a lot of the tunes and decorationincluding triplets fall naturally when played in GDAE. G.OC plays CGDA and this will present problems too and Gerry will be seen to play the Irish Standard when in the company of musicians. If you watch G.O.C playing you will see that he will use fiddle fingering on the E string and I think that this is very common. You do have to build up your little finger and make a serious attempt to hit the target.
A great tune to practice is the Galway Rambler. You should practice this for about a month ontil you can do it fast and without error and I promise you that your days of missing notes will be over. As you will have streched the fibers of you hand and fingers and they will give you that little bit extra in terms of reach and downward pressure. If you could get your hands on a standard lenght neck banjo and practice on this you will see great results. Another trick I do hear of is to leave out you first finger altogeather when practicing playing and just play the tunes with the remaining fingers. this has the effect of really stretching the hand and allowing you alot more travel.
Trust me when I say that great banjo players may not know where their fingers are going now, but they did when they were learning and its just a case of years of constructive experience.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
lowdens,
I was trying out the phrase you asked about [bgaf gfed] to see what I'd really do (again, I'm only a beginner) and I found that you're spot on that changing position isn't the best, because the phrases are rooted in 1st position.
So i found myself improvising, and instead of moving to 2nd position I was rotating the left hand a little to nail the B and playing the B with my pinky, the A with the ring finger, the G with the middle and the F with my index. I had to rock my hand a little to make the stretch, but it worked.
At speed I don't know, but it seems like it'd work.
Then again, I play Silver Spear's B part by sliding the pinky up to the 7th fret.
good luck
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by dirtyheel
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Geez, compaq, you've done it again. Now I have to go home and try to relearn my tunes with guitar fingering on the bottom three and flexibility on the e. It just sounds so logical.
When are you coming to Calgary to give banjo lessons?
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by grego
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
There is no rule that fits all. You have to find what works for you. I play mandolin but find that It works better for me to change my fingering when playing banjo. I like the fact that there is much less hand motion with this method. Some of the best banjo players I know use mandolin fingering.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Martinfamilyband
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Don't go switching just yet grego. There are a couple of caveats about guitar fingering.
First off, much of the advice on this thread strikes me as a bit dogmatic and doesn't take into account the differences among us, chiefly size and stretch of hands and whether we play short-scale or longer scale banjos. In my experience, fiddle fingering works just fine on a short-scale banjo for people with average-sized hands and larger. With your index on the second fret, if you can't reach the fifth fret with your ring finger on a short-scale banjo, then you'll want to use guitar fingering and play fifth fret with your pinky (or maybe take up another instrument). But for many adults, this is quite unnecessary.
Second, guitar fingering isn't simply a matter of "one finger for each fret." For the vast majority of Irish trad tunes, the index finger hangs over the second fret, so by default it's also the designated finger for first fret when those notes are called for. Some tunes wander between f nats and f sharps on the 1st string, or B flats and B nats on the 2nd string. As soon as you start making little one- or two-fret shifts in position like that, you open all sorts of possibilities for doing the same with other fingers. When I'm playing guitar, I think of these shifts as allowing me to play melody lines out of the relevant chord position. But when I'm on fiddle, these same shifts make sense in a more linear "first position" or "third position" frame of mind. It strikes me that on a short-scale banjo, *either mindset can work just fine* and it's up to the individual player to use the one that suits them best. Or think both ways at the same time and learn to finger tricky phrases as many different ways as you can find. The more avenues you have for getting the notes, the more you can personalize your interpretation of the music, and the more likely you are to find a way that produces the sound you're after.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Will.
I agee that everybody is different and should strive to find exactly what suits them. I teach children and encourage them to use the standard lenght neck with guitar fingering and they have no problem making the jump so hand size should not really be a consideration . It is just a more natural and less painful way to play. In fiddle fingering the hand is moving to much and will in time cause problems. The finger fret assignment is excellent for tunes in c and f and A as the index and pinky has to adjust on such a minor level. Most players I know use this method, although the fiddle method I have seen too. you will probably notice a player with fiddle fingering because they tend to have the neck very close to their ear. Again its what suit the person in question that matters not what I think.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Grego
Don't know when I'll be in Calgary we are putting in place our 2006 tour details at the moment and are trying to hit a few new destinations, so who knows. Do you know any agents there?
If your every in my neck of the woods, please look me up. i'm very easy to find when in town
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Compaq: I know people who know agents. Send me a publicity blurb on your band by e-mail, or a link to a website or something, and I'll pass it on to them.
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by grego
Re: Tenor Banjo fingering
Grego
Will do soon as in the process of building new site and recording new stuff and when thats all done in a week or so I will send you the Spin!!!
# Posted on February 5th 2005 by compaqjohn