dear any body who was at the dublin feadh. i don't know if you noticed this but it is always the same people winning the solo competitons i was glad to see a few new faces in the trio competitions. i myself took part in the solo and group competitions and as usual it was same people that one. i don't want to finish on a bad note but i wish them the best of luck in the leinsters
hey there, is there a person who doesnt notice! it is amazing though how unfair it can be but thank god you didnt go to the all irelands, ye would of had a heart-attack ! i got 2nd 2 years ago to an english girl who made false starts and who had only triplets. and this year there was a piano player judging a box compotition and needless to say, i didnt get placed and the one with those thumping monotonous bass did !
but i realised this year that it aint worth it, after all, as i constantly say, music is for enjoyment, not in my opinion for competing and getting critisised on, ye get plently of that at the music class if you need it. allthough some of the horror storys are good ! i even know a person who's mum gave out to the judge after not getting placed, even though she should of been placed. but thats what its like.
and you might take some solas in knowing that most of them big time musicians, havent won all-irelands and allthough, im not comparing myself to him, alan kelly, had nearly the exact same prob as me and look at him now.
well, the important thing is keep playing !
talk to ya latter
I'd say that almost everyone who has entered a competition has at some time felt they were cheated out of a well earned medal. But the thing is, the only objective a judge has is to maintain a standard. The rest of it is purely subjective. Naturally
there will be situations where a judge will err on the side of safety, and surely the safest thing is to go for the person who won last year! We all could quote situations where the wrong person got the gold, but at the end of the day it's just one persons opinion, and judging by comments on this site there is'nt really a set of rules in this game.
Keep the chins up lads and enjoy the tunes. The people who win the medals are just that, it's the foot soldiers who keep the bills paid.
Frank
I've seen so many dodgy results in the Fleadhs that I wouldn't have time today to list them. I remember one where I got through to the All-Ireland having won the Antrim And Ulster bodhran comp. I didn't get placed in the final, which was fair enough as I didn't play well and had to borrow Junior Davey's bodhran (mine had a tear). Anyway Junior, who's a great player, got second place and some lad from Glasgow got first. He was a nice player but no great shakes. How strange it was to learn later that the cup was sponsored by a Scottish bank! Fair play to anyone who does well in the competitions, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over not winning. You'll always find the best musicians half-canned in the afternoon sessions, having a great time, while the competitors are sweating it out.
Nobody ever knows what an adjudicator is looking for, in any given competition. One judge may have a pet trait or such that they're looking for, while another may a pet peeve that is set off by something as common as a non-classical grip (or, vice-versaly, a classical grip!). It's never worth worrying about.
At feisianna, we tell our dancers that they are not competing (ever) with the other dancers. They are competing against themselves -- if they feel that they have danced better than they have danced before, if they've overcome a problem with their dancing or competing that needed seeing to, then we feel that they have competed successfully, medals or places aside. There have been times when we have been very, very proud of a dancer for simply getting through two steps and couldn't care less if they didn't place.
Competing is not a bad thing -- it tells you where you are across a given standard, gives you a goal to work towards with an external deadline, and if you have the right attitude about it, it's even fun, etc. -- but it's certainly not the only thing, and as everyone has said, enjoyment of the music is the most important thing.
Personally, I don't enjoy things that I don't do well, so I strive to do as well as I can on whatever it is I'm trying to do -- it may not look or sound like I'm enjoying myself, but I rarely do things that I don't enjoy.
I think I've picked this bone before, many many moons ago, but I'll do it again. I personally have no desire to be publically ranked by a third party whose tastes I may not agree with. I used to compete regularly (singing). In singing, the most vibrato-y soprano always wins. I am an alto, and was always exactly one per cent away from placing. I found competitions pointless, expensive and frustrating. I don't think it was because I wanted the gold and didn't get it, or because I wanted to be better than anyone. I think it's because I don't personally believe there is any value to comparing, ranking and grading people. I'm all for constructive criticism (by invitation only) and I'm sure the winners appreciate the feather in their caps, but... I don't get it, personally.
I disagree with you there, Kerri -- I don't think that competitions are about comparing, ranking or grading people, first off. They're about comparing, ranking and/or grading abilities at whatever you're competing in, and not placing is not a personal insult or kudo, if only because you indeed may not agree with the adjudicator's viewpoint. I don't think people should go to competitions feeling that winning a place is the only good outcome, you see.
To me, they're about challenging yourself to be the best you can be, about wanting to be better than you are now, about being around people who want the same things you want. But of course some people don't need or want a competition to do that. I don't think they're bad, pointless, necessarily expensive and/or frustrating, myself, and have never found them to be so personally. (No use making people who *do* like them feel bad about it, I think.)
I can certainly understand not caring for them personally and not taking part. I can understand enjoying them and wanting to do them as often as possible. I often won first place in my dances at feisianna and of course I enjoyed the reward after working very hard for it, but was always completely terrified before every single dance, and so I don't compete any more.
The whole issue of "who always wins" or the question of "what the hell do the adjudicators want?" is separate from that, I think. I think of the dancing and music as two of those things that's sort of like a sport as well as an art. You just can't get as upset at not placing in a race, because it's obvious who came in first and such, of course. Because 'good' music and dancing are subjective, you might have to re-think the view that you must win first (or second or third) prize or the whole thing was worthless. You have to be able to give yourself your own blue ribbon when necessary. And you have to know that, when you do place, that many of the other competitors could just as easily be receiving that medal or place.
I have great admiration for those who win the fleadhs and such, regardless of the adjudicator's preferences or political anything behind why they won. I also have great admiration for everyone who was brave enough to compete, and do hope that they all know that a ribbon does not a champion make, and it never has.
Personally, i totally agree with kerri. Zlee, what your saying competitions are for is that "They're about comparing, ranking and/or grading abilities at whatever you're competing in." and "not first off"
Well, i most certainly don’t think so, 1. because if your playing needs any improvement, this is better done, quietly in a room with your music teacher, and not in a hall in front of a huge audience. 2 This has shattered peoples musical ego's, and stopped people from playing beause they think that they cant reach the standard. it doesn’t do you any good to have your faults pointed out in front of a lot of people, most of which of course are caused by nerves in the first place, and its fine saying not to take it seriously as an adult, but for young people, its not that simple.
I know an absolutely fantastic and virtuoso, fiddle player, who gets totally shattered every year. She practices for months, and she is good, she can play the most haunting of slow airs and shoot up the fiddle for the masons apron like nobody has seen.
and she gets her playing scrutinised year in, year out, and it does hurt, her. but aside from that, the worst effect it had was that it created rivalry between her and another local fiddler, so much so, that she wouldn’t play any of her good tunes in front of him, and he was the same. but now, and ok, that is an extreme example, but it does happen and often, and its not fair either to put it down to a lack of being brave enough. Music definatly shouldn’t be about bravado.
It is an art form, to be admired, not a sport to be competitive.
Another huge part that i somehow left out in my last post, was that competitions have had a huge part to play in the destruction of regional styles, in particularly here in Donegal. There used to be a glencolmbcille style, a teelin style, a glenties style and so on. They had their own repertoires and styles and were cross-fertilised by the travelling players, most notably here, Johnny Doherty. Now, if you go into competition and play Donegal music in a Donegal style, you are sure to not get far, but when I play in a more relaxed, less rhythmic Clare style or east Galway style, i always seem to win. As a result, they have detracted from the richness of our regional styles and most people play here in Donegal in the Clare and Galway styles. Its far less interesting if we're all the same.This isnt just my opinion though, as Gearoid O hAllmhuirin, makes a similar comment in his fantastic book the pocket history of traditional irish music.
In my opinion, competitions should encourage richness rather than take away from it.imagine how interesting it would be then.
Now i can only speak about donegal, but im sure that its the same in other counties too. Now, you've all heard my opinion(and a long one at that!) i'd love to hear what the rest of you think.
Martin.
Zina, I didn't say competitions were all about "winning", or that people who like to compete should feel "bad". I said I found participating in a competitive atmosphere stressful and can't see any good reason to subject myself to that kind of stress. I play better when I'm relaxed, when I'm among friends, when I'm not being critiqued and evaluated, when I've had a couple pints, and when there is no real distinction between the musical haves and have-nots. As for "challenging yourself," and "wanting to be better than you are now," when DON'T musicians carry that around? No matter how good you are, don't you ALWAYS want to improve? Every time I play a tune, no matter how well I pull it off, I reflect afterwards on how much better it could have been. I know when I am playing with people who are "more" advanced than I am and when I am playing with people who are "less", but I don't really agree with qualitative terms.
Martin's comments about the homogenization of style really strike a chord with me. When everyone is striving to achieve the same institutionalized standard of excellence (ie. soprano with heaps of vibrato) the subtle, enticing diversity of personal taste and varied musical influence is lost.
An Ceoltoir, in your eagerness to make your point, you've lost the point of what I was talking about. You are incorrect in what you tell me that I'm saying, Martin. What I was saying was that competitions are not about judging *people*, and that I believe competitors should not see competitions as being a process of being judged as a person with or without worth. You and anyone else are NOT your ability to play music, or to run a race, or to look pretty, or any such thing that competitions exist out there for. If you lost the ability to do any of those things, you would still be you, and you would still be worth a prize. I was speaking of a way of looking at competition and competing that is healthier than thinking that someone else's judgement of how one plays, looks like, performs in a sport or anything else is a validation OR an insult of anyone as a person of worth, and most importantly, self-worth.
Let me repeat it, Martin: to me, a competition isn't much about winning a place or a prize. It's about the process I go through to get to my personal best, not about placing or getting a ribbon or trophy. Because of this, it doesn't matter much to me if I place or not, unless I didn't do my best in the process -- and then I know that the only person who let me down was myself.
If you re-read my post, I did not say people who don't compete aren't brave. I said that people who do compete are, because they're putting their ability out on show. So are people who perform in front of other people, or go out to possible ridicule from fellow players to a session. So are people who wake up and get out of bed and go through a day. There's bravery of all sorts.
I can understand and respect the inability to understand competitions in that light, but think also that it's important not to be disrespectful of other people's wish to take part in them, especially if they view competitions as something other than what you see them as, by blowing them off as a bad thing.
If you don't think music is something in which to be competitive, then either don't compete or work to change the way in which people compete (which was what I thought we were doing).
Kerri, I also find them stressful, which is why I don't compete any more.
I can certainly understand someone finding competitions to be pointless, expensive, and frustrating, but what I was saying was that I don't think that they have to be, and I think that people who don't find them to be any of those things should not be made to feel that competitions ARE pointless, expensive, and/or frustrating and that they are somehow doing something wrong by taking part.
Music to me is both an art and a craft, and so I personally believe that there are both qualitative standards and measures AND personal connections involved. Perhaps the competitors who win that people didn't think were particularly deserving of a medal did indeed strike some kind of chord within the adjudicator. Or perhaps not. It's not worth worrying about.
[snip]
Let me repeat it, Martin: to me, a competition isn't much about winning a place or a prize. It's about the process I go through to get to my personal best, not about placing or getting a ribbon or trophy. Because of this, it doesn't matter much to me if I place or not, unless I didn't do my best in the process -- and then I know that the only person who let me down was myself.
[/snip]
Zina I have to call BS, a competition is about nothing else but placing, that's why it's called a competition. Why else bother? to humiliate yourself, set yourself up for an ego-crush?
You enjoy the fringe benifits of getting your playing or dancing up to par through preparation for the competitions. But don't mix that up with the fact that competitions are where people go to win prizes.
Competitions do have their good sides, but they also change the whole aesthetic of an art form. Also how can art of any kind be properly judged? Think of how silly it would be if Picasso & Dali had to go before a panel of judges so they could strive to perfect their art.
*clap clap clap* I didn't want to go that far, Brad, but I'm glad you did.
Zina, I didn't see Martin or myself saying how you rank in an adjudicator's heirarchy of technical prowess has anything at all to do with your value as a person. And nobody ever said they are "bad", and nobody suggested that people who compete should feel in some way inferior to those who don't. I'd like to think reading our comments here is more likely to make people who hate competing more comfortable with their aversion than they are likely to make people who love to compete feel uncomfortable with their affinity.
Anyway, just too be clear, if you DO compete, I wish you the best of luck and I hope you find tremendous enjoyment and personal satisfaction in competitions, win or lose. If you're going to bump into ME though, it's more likely to be in a folk festival or maybe down at the pub.
This talk of judging art to see if it's up to the standard reminds me of the old Socialist Realism standards that art used to have to conform to in certain parts of the world. In those cases, it was a good standard and useful for keeping the artist out of jail, but it didn't always produce lasting art.
Oh, and not to criticize only the liberated world, i could send you to http://www.oscar.com/ to meditate on the most important art competition we have here, in the strange country i now live in.
But hey, if i were good enough and had the time and the money, i'd probably try to go for an All Ireland. As it is right now, my priorities are necessarily somewhere else. To the winner, good luck, i'll drink a pint for ye!
Sounds like contests are the same everywhere! I went to an American Old Time fiddle contest a few years ago to see what they were about. I was, in my naivete, completely shocked when everyone who placed played exactly the same style. Super fast, super fancy "contest style" fiddling. The really good players (and there were several) who played any other way were completely cut out. So, the lesson I took away from that was, if you want to win contests you have to figure out what the judges are looking for and go for it. If you want an *objective* critique of your fiddling, contests aren't the place to look. But if you have fun getting ready for them and can manage not to take them seriously (even if you win), then go for it. Otherwise, they aren't worth the mental anguish they can cause.
I'm in the "avoid them at all costs" camp, myself. I know that getting ready to compete really forces you to practice and do your best, but for me, the days afterward of walking around with the "I suck!!" bubble over my head would not be worth it. And really, if the winners have already essentially been decided, why bother? Nope. I might be in the audience cheering you on but otherwise I'll be down at the pub as well, *grin*.
What, setting yourself up for "humiliation" and an "ego-crush" is *good,* then? Make up your minds, kids. "It's okay for you poor pitiable people who want to crush yourselves at a competition" doesn't hack it as a way of saying that you can see competitions in a positive light -- and there's nothing particularly wrong with thinking that competitions are bad things. Chris, no adjudicator would want you to walk around with the "I suck" balloon over your head, whether they place you or not -- and they did not place it there for you...you did. I think you know that, and that's why you don't compete.
I will still hope to teach my students who compete to see competitions in a more healthy light rather than just saying that competitions are only about the placing and winning the prizes. To me, all of my students (a mix of adults and children) are prizewinners and champions, because they all try their best. I don't want the legacy I leave my students to be "only compete if you're going to win." I want it to be "you are the only one who can give yourself the real prize" -- and lots of them don't need competitions for that. Some, however, enjoy the competitions, and I don't find anything wrong with that either.
Parenthetically, the school I teach for is one that is well-known for the emphasis we place on the form as well as the art of dance. Dance, like music to me, is also a craft as well as an art. Any craft, Glauber, can be judged by a standard. And the standard can be very different depending on who sets it up.
I'm a former SAG/AFTRA actress. And I believe that most art can indeed be judged by standards to a certain extent, though not all the way to the top.
But I'll leave you guys to each other now on this, as I am obviously a minority voice in this and don't see that this opinion is particularly welcome on this subject.
Of *course* that's why I would never compete, Zina! I'm fully aware that *I* am the one who places that over my head. And I wish I could see competing in the positive light that you do. It's much more sensible. But I can't, though I've tried, and I wasn't weighing in on the discussion to add to what you must have seen as a "dogpile" onto you! I was just adding my two cents. I'm really sorry if it seemed like a put-down of your point of view. It certainly was NOT meant to be. Apologies, apologies!
Zina: I'll hitch a ride on your one-girl bandwagon.
I'm an Irish dancer, and I compete. Christine, the reason that you would never compete is the reason I do; maybe I'm just into self-torture ;) but I compete to work through the negativity. I compete to see it's positive side, to connect with people, to see what others might think of my dancing besides my teachers. I haven't always had a good time with it, either. There's been many times that I've stuck an "I suck" neon blinking sign over my head.
And you know what, a few times that I've done that - said no, I was terrible, that was crap and I'm never going to place, we drove all these hours and I didn't work hard enough - I place. I placed second, I placed third, I placed highly and competition pulled me up by my bootstraps, not me.
I don't know about music competitions yet - they're probably another game - but I think I've benefitted from competitions and sticking my neck out. I've become stronger for it, and I feel that it has helped me tap into something that I was scared to do before. It helped me tap into the courage I had to do things I wouldn't normally have the courage to do.
Performance also can give us these opportunities to grow - bad performances, good performances... the ones you think you bombed in and go home sulking but the next day somebody comes up to you and says something about it that makes your week.
So it really doesn't matter where it comes from. We all have our ways of satisfaction, and as we're different people, we'll have different opinions on them.
In support of a minority voice, and in an effort to get everybody to do a quick reality check, remember this about any form of competition...it IS about performing to meet a standard...it is NOT about performing with your friends in the pub. If you don't like it, don't agree with it, feel that it is not for you, then leave for those that enjoy it.
I have said previously that competitions have their place and I disagree entirely that they should be maligned for not maintaining regional style...that's not the function. The function is to choose the most proficient player, as the judges see it, on any given day. It is as far removed from the music discussed on this forum as you could get, and, just as everybody was very vocal about session etiquette, competition standards have their own etiquette.
For all the free-spirit soul musicians among us...don't knock competing. It is an important step on somebody's road to self awareness, just as not competing is for you.
Zina, your opinion is never "unwelcome". I hope that *no one's* opinion is unwelcome on this site which has one rule, "Be Civil." You may feel like the minority just because you articulate your point so well that many of us who agree with you feel that we have nothing to add.
I have never been in a music competition and have never even witnessed one, so for me this is purely a thought-experiment. The closest thing in my experience is showing dogs in obedience trials. Granted, judging in an obedience trial is (or ought to be!) more objective than a fleadh, but there are similarities. Competitors come in with different personal goals. Some people are really driven to compete; they really want to win that ribbon or trophy or be High in Trial. Others just hope to pass and don't care about placing. Some get really upset when they don't do as well as they'd hoped; others are disappointed but shrug it off; some have the grace and sense of humor to laugh about their foibles immediately. For all of us, though, the greatest benefit of the competition has nothing to do with whether we win or lose. The daily training in preparation for the trial is where the real benefit lies. In dog training, it's the strengthening of communication between human and dog, the deepening of the relationship, the joy of learning to work together as a team. In music, it's developing your musical skills, pushing your limits, getting closer to producing the sounds you hear in your head.
Competitions can be a great motivator -- they provide a goal to work toward. Many people enjoy the social aspects of competitions, too. In my opinion, if you're doing competitions, and you feel you're getting something worthwhile out of it, then it's the right thing for you to do. If you're doing it and all you're getting is stress and negative feelings, then something needs to change -- maybe it's just your own attitude that needs adjusting, or maybe that particular competition isn't right for you, or maybe competition in general just isn't your thing.
You decide what's right for you. What works best for me may be something different. We aren't all alike, and that's a good thing. Imagine a session with 12 fiddles and nothing else. Isn't it a lot more fun to have some variety -- a couple fiddles, a couple flutes and whistles, a mandolin, a button accordion, a pipe player, a guitar, a bodhran [ONE! ] . . . Trite as it may be, variety *is* the spice of life.
So cheer up now, Zina! Quit sulking at the bar and come back to the session; we like what your fiddle adds to the tunes.
Sorry, Zina! I'm not sure why, but the issue of musician competitions causes a visceral reaction from me. The usual reaction is that "i don't want to compete or be better than anyone else, i just want to play music". I half-suspect that the reason is that i'm not really that good. I mean, i've played flute for a long time now, and i *can* play better than a lot of people, but it just takes one listen of Mike McGoldrick, for example, to see that i am not and will never be in that league. So, my only hope is that there will be, indeed, a few street corners in Heaven where people can still play for fun, without being in that league.
But it is true also that i don't care to try to prove that i'm better than anyone else. My dog (the dog who lives with me), on the other hand, IS the best dog in the world!
Oooo, Glauber, can we talk about our dogs now? This thread is probably long enough that it's due to get sidetracked, don't you think?
Now, my ten-year-old golden retriever truly IS the best dog in the world. (The two I had before her were also the best in the world.) Maybe that's why I only enter competitions as a team with my dog. She's smart, loyal, beautiful, friendly, never grouchy, always up for a party, quick to forgive, sees the good in everyone she meets, and only puts her foot in her mouth intentionally, because she really does want to chew on it.
hey all, i'm writting this to try and bring the conversation back into perspective. This isnt a slanging match, basicly all we are doing is viewing our different opinions, yours is very welcome. the reason i posted my comments was to hear what other people think that like competing, normally people agree with me and leave it at that. but Zlee, if you like competing, i'll respect that, i mightnt understand it fully but i still respect that.so please dont take it the wrong way, i think that this could be a very benificial conversation for us all if we(including me) keep our cool.
Now, i think i need to differ with one or two of the comments there. "You and anyone else are NOT your ability to play music"
Here in ireland there is a saying, "you might be able to take the musician from the music, but you cant take the music from the musician"
Music, is one of the talents that makes us as people special, otherwise we are just ordinary people. its the gift that gives us the edge. and to not be getting placed in competitions (allthough i agree you are improving by entering) is knocking you to a certain degree. ok some people can shun it off better than others, but no matter, how good you try to hide it, you still are dissapointed.
But personnly, aside from competition, Zlee, you have allready come up with the best way of uping your standard,- The Mighty craic albumb ! there is no better way, it gets you to work, put in the practice, and you are definatly not beeing evaluated, it is a celabration of all our talents, and no better way !
Even though I don't think I'm the type to be in a competition, I sure understand how good
they can be for some folks. My kids absolutely thrive on competitions. They love the
motivation they get from preparing for a competition knowing they can be rewarded if they
win. They absolutely aren't afraid of losing. Both of them have made the most musical
progress in their young lives while preparing for the competitions. Both of them have
played in several competitions without placing, but one of them has placed once. Both of
them love it anyway.
Nah, I probably won't get into any competitions myself any time soon, but I think they
do a lot for the whole art, and for the folks who love to compete. I get a really
nice feeling knowing that some of ny favorite Irish trad teachers have won competitions.
I also get a nice feeling knowing I never have to enter one if I don't want to.
DUBLIN FLEADH
DUBLIN FLEADH
dear any body who was at the dublin feadh. i don't know if you noticed this but it is always the same people winning the solo competitons i was glad to see a few new faces in the trio competitions. i myself took part in the solo and group competitions and as usual it was same people that one. i don't want to finish on a bad note but i wish them the best of luck in the leinsters
# Posted on May 26th 2002 by accordion
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
hey there, is there a person who doesnt notice! it is amazing though how unfair it can be but thank god you didnt go to the all irelands, ye would of had a heart-attack ! i got 2nd 2 years ago to an english girl who made false starts and who had only triplets. and this year there was a piano player judging a box compotition and needless to say, i didnt get placed and the one with those thumping monotonous bass did !
but i realised this year that it aint worth it, after all, as i constantly say, music is for enjoyment, not in my opinion for competing and getting critisised on, ye get plently of that at the music class if you need it. allthough some of the horror storys are good ! i even know a person who's mum gave out to the judge after not getting placed, even though she should of been placed. but thats what its like.
and you might take some solas in knowing that most of them big time musicians, havent won all-irelands and allthough, im not comparing myself to him, alan kelly, had nearly the exact same prob as me and look at him now.
well, the important thing is keep playing !
talk to ya latter
martin.
# Posted on May 26th 2002 by martin t
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
I'd say that almost everyone who has entered a competition has at some time felt they were cheated out of a well earned medal. But the thing is, the only objective a judge has is to maintain a standard. The rest of it is purely subjective. Naturally
there will be situations where a judge will err on the side of safety, and surely the safest thing is to go for the person who won last year! We all could quote situations where the wrong person got the gold, but at the end of the day it's just one persons opinion, and judging by comments on this site there is'nt really a set of rules in this game.
Keep the chins up lads and enjoy the tunes. The people who win the medals are just that, it's the foot soldiers who keep the bills paid.
Frank
# Posted on May 26th 2002 by Backer
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
I've seen so many dodgy results in the Fleadhs that I wouldn't have time today to list them. I remember one where I got through to the All-Ireland having won the Antrim And Ulster bodhran comp. I didn't get placed in the final, which was fair enough as I didn't play well and had to borrow Junior Davey's bodhran (mine had a tear). Anyway Junior, who's a great player, got second place and some lad from Glasgow got first. He was a nice player but no great shakes. How strange it was to learn later that the cup was sponsored by a Scottish bank! Fair play to anyone who does well in the competitions, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over not winning. You'll always find the best musicians half-canned in the afternoon sessions, having a great time, while the competitors are sweating it out.
# Posted on May 26th 2002 by Conán McDonnell
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Nobody ever knows what an adjudicator is looking for, in any given competition. One judge may have a pet trait or such that they're looking for, while another may a pet peeve that is set off by something as common as a non-classical grip (or, vice-versaly, a classical grip!). It's never worth worrying about.
At feisianna, we tell our dancers that they are not competing (ever) with the other dancers. They are competing against themselves -- if they feel that they have danced better than they have danced before, if they've overcome a problem with their dancing or competing that needed seeing to, then we feel that they have competed successfully, medals or places aside. There have been times when we have been very, very proud of a dancer for simply getting through two steps and couldn't care less if they didn't place.
Competing is not a bad thing -- it tells you where you are across a given standard, gives you a goal to work towards with an external deadline, and if you have the right attitude about it, it's even fun, etc. -- but it's certainly not the only thing, and as everyone has said, enjoyment of the music is the most important thing.
Personally, I don't enjoy things that I don't do well, so I strive to do as well as I can on whatever it is I'm trying to do -- it may not look or sound like I'm enjoying myself, but I rarely do things that I don't enjoy.
Zina
# Posted on May 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
I think I've picked this bone before, many many moons ago, but I'll do it again. I personally have no desire to be publically ranked by a third party whose tastes I may not agree with. I used to compete regularly (singing). In singing, the most vibrato-y soprano always wins. I am an alto, and was always exactly one per cent away from placing. I found competitions pointless, expensive and frustrating. I don't think it was because I wanted the gold and didn't get it, or because I wanted to be better than anyone. I think it's because I don't personally believe there is any value to comparing, ranking and grading people. I'm all for constructive criticism (by invitation only) and I'm sure the winners appreciate the feather in their caps, but... I don't get it, personally.
Kerri
# Posted on May 27th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
I disagree with you there, Kerri -- I don't think that competitions are about comparing, ranking or grading people, first off. They're about comparing, ranking and/or grading abilities at whatever you're competing in, and not placing is not a personal insult or kudo, if only because you indeed may not agree with the adjudicator's viewpoint. I don't think people should go to competitions feeling that winning a place is the only good outcome, you see.
To me, they're about challenging yourself to be the best you can be, about wanting to be better than you are now, about being around people who want the same things you want. But of course some people don't need or want a competition to do that. I don't think they're bad, pointless, necessarily expensive and/or frustrating, myself, and have never found them to be so personally. (No use making people who *do* like them feel bad about it, I think.)
I can certainly understand not caring for them personally and not taking part. I can understand enjoying them and wanting to do them as often as possible. I often won first place in my dances at feisianna and of course I enjoyed the reward after working very hard for it, but was always completely terrified before every single dance, and so I don't compete any more.
The whole issue of "who always wins" or the question of "what the hell do the adjudicators want?" is separate from that, I think. I think of the dancing and music as two of those things that's sort of like a sport as well as an art. You just can't get as upset at not placing in a race, because it's obvious who came in first and such, of course. Because 'good' music and dancing are subjective, you might have to re-think the view that you must win first (or second or third) prize or the whole thing was worthless. You have to be able to give yourself your own blue ribbon when necessary. And you have to know that, when you do place, that many of the other competitors could just as easily be receiving that medal or place.
I have great admiration for those who win the fleadhs and such, regardless of the adjudicator's preferences or political anything behind why they won. I also have great admiration for everyone who was brave enough to compete, and do hope that they all know that a ribbon does not a champion make, and it never has.
Zina
# Posted on May 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: ANY FLEADH
Personally, i totally agree with kerri. Zlee, what your saying competitions are for is that "They're about comparing, ranking and/or grading abilities at whatever you're competing in." and "not first off"
Well, i most certainly don’t think so, 1. because if your playing needs any improvement, this is better done, quietly in a room with your music teacher, and not in a hall in front of a huge audience. 2 This has shattered peoples musical ego's, and stopped people from playing beause they think that they cant reach the standard. it doesn’t do you any good to have your faults pointed out in front of a lot of people, most of which of course are caused by nerves in the first place, and its fine saying not to take it seriously as an adult, but for young people, its not that simple.
I know an absolutely fantastic and virtuoso, fiddle player, who gets totally shattered every year. She practices for months, and she is good, she can play the most haunting of slow airs and shoot up the fiddle for the masons apron like nobody has seen.
and she gets her playing scrutinised year in, year out, and it does hurt, her. but aside from that, the worst effect it had was that it created rivalry between her and another local fiddler, so much so, that she wouldn’t play any of her good tunes in front of him, and he was the same. but now, and ok, that is an extreme example, but it does happen and often, and its not fair either to put it down to a lack of being brave enough. Music definatly shouldn’t be about bravado.
It is an art form, to be admired, not a sport to be competitive.
Another huge part that i somehow left out in my last post, was that competitions have had a huge part to play in the destruction of regional styles, in particularly here in Donegal. There used to be a glencolmbcille style, a teelin style, a glenties style and so on. They had their own repertoires and styles and were cross-fertilised by the travelling players, most notably here, Johnny Doherty. Now, if you go into competition and play Donegal music in a Donegal style, you are sure to not get far, but when I play in a more relaxed, less rhythmic Clare style or east Galway style, i always seem to win. As a result, they have detracted from the richness of our regional styles and most people play here in Donegal in the Clare and Galway styles. Its far less interesting if we're all the same.This isnt just my opinion though, as Gearoid O hAllmhuirin, makes a similar comment in his fantastic book the pocket history of traditional irish music.
In my opinion, competitions should encourage richness rather than take away from it.imagine how interesting it would be then.
Now i can only speak about donegal, but im sure that its the same in other counties too. Now, you've all heard my opinion(and a long one at that!) i'd love to hear what the rest of you think.
Martin.
# Posted on May 27th 2002 by martin t
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Zina, I didn't say competitions were all about "winning", or that people who like to compete should feel "bad". I said I found participating in a competitive atmosphere stressful and can't see any good reason to subject myself to that kind of stress. I play better when I'm relaxed, when I'm among friends, when I'm not being critiqued and evaluated, when I've had a couple pints, and when there is no real distinction between the musical haves and have-nots. As for "challenging yourself," and "wanting to be better than you are now," when DON'T musicians carry that around? No matter how good you are, don't you ALWAYS want to improve? Every time I play a tune, no matter how well I pull it off, I reflect afterwards on how much better it could have been. I know when I am playing with people who are "more" advanced than I am and when I am playing with people who are "less", but I don't really agree with qualitative terms.
Martin's comments about the homogenization of style really strike a chord with me. When everyone is striving to achieve the same institutionalized standard of excellence (ie. soprano with heaps of vibrato) the subtle, enticing diversity of personal taste and varied musical influence is lost.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
An Ceoltoir, in your eagerness to make your point, you've lost the point of what I was talking about. You are incorrect in what you tell me that I'm saying, Martin. What I was saying was that competitions are not about judging *people*, and that I believe competitors should not see competitions as being a process of being judged as a person with or without worth. You and anyone else are NOT your ability to play music, or to run a race, or to look pretty, or any such thing that competitions exist out there for. If you lost the ability to do any of those things, you would still be you, and you would still be worth a prize. I was speaking of a way of looking at competition and competing that is healthier than thinking that someone else's judgement of how one plays, looks like, performs in a sport or anything else is a validation OR an insult of anyone as a person of worth, and most importantly, self-worth.
Let me repeat it, Martin: to me, a competition isn't much about winning a place or a prize. It's about the process I go through to get to my personal best, not about placing or getting a ribbon or trophy. Because of this, it doesn't matter much to me if I place or not, unless I didn't do my best in the process -- and then I know that the only person who let me down was myself.
If you re-read my post, I did not say people who don't compete aren't brave. I said that people who do compete are, because they're putting their ability out on show. So are people who perform in front of other people, or go out to possible ridicule from fellow players to a session. So are people who wake up and get out of bed and go through a day. There's bravery of all sorts.
I can understand and respect the inability to understand competitions in that light, but think also that it's important not to be disrespectful of other people's wish to take part in them, especially if they view competitions as something other than what you see them as, by blowing them off as a bad thing.
If you don't think music is something in which to be competitive, then either don't compete or work to change the way in which people compete (which was what I thought we were doing).
Zina
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Zina Lee
Kerri, I also find them stressful, which is why I don't compete any more.
I can certainly understand someone finding competitions to be pointless, expensive, and frustrating, but what I was saying was that I don't think that they have to be, and I think that people who don't find them to be any of those things should not be made to feel that competitions ARE pointless, expensive, and/or frustrating and that they are somehow doing something wrong by taking part.
Music to me is both an art and a craft, and so I personally believe that there are both qualitative standards and measures AND personal connections involved. Perhaps the competitors who win that people didn't think were particularly deserving of a medal did indeed strike some kind of chord within the adjudicator. Or perhaps not. It's not worth worrying about.
Zina
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
[snip]
Let me repeat it, Martin: to me, a competition isn't much about winning a place or a prize. It's about the process I go through to get to my personal best, not about placing or getting a ribbon or trophy. Because of this, it doesn't matter much to me if I place or not, unless I didn't do my best in the process -- and then I know that the only person who let me down was myself.
[/snip]
Zina I have to call BS, a competition is about nothing else but placing, that's why it's called a competition. Why else bother? to humiliate yourself, set yourself up for an ego-crush?
You enjoy the fringe benifits of getting your playing or dancing up to par through preparation for the competitions. But don't mix that up with the fact that competitions are where people go to win prizes.
Competitions do have their good sides, but they also change the whole aesthetic of an art form. Also how can art of any kind be properly judged? Think of how silly it would be if Picasso & Dali had to go before a panel of judges so they could strive to perfect their art.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by B Rad
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
*clap clap clap* I didn't want to go that far, Brad, but I'm glad you did.
Zina, I didn't see Martin or myself saying how you rank in an adjudicator's heirarchy of technical prowess has anything at all to do with your value as a person. And nobody ever said they are "bad", and nobody suggested that people who compete should feel in some way inferior to those who don't. I'd like to think reading our comments here is more likely to make people who hate competing more comfortable with their aversion than they are likely to make people who love to compete feel uncomfortable with their affinity.
Anyway, just too be clear, if you DO compete, I wish you the best of luck and I hope you find tremendous enjoyment and personal satisfaction in competitions, win or lose. If you're going to bump into ME though, it's more likely to be in a folk festival or maybe down at the pub.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
This talk of judging art to see if it's up to the standard reminds me of the old Socialist Realism standards that art used to have to conform to in certain parts of the world. In those cases, it was a good standard and useful for keeping the artist out of jail, but it didn't always produce lasting art.
Oh, and not to criticize only the liberated world, i could send you to http://www.oscar.com/ to meditate on the most important art competition we have here, in the strange country i now live in.
But hey, if i were good enough and had the time and the money, i'd probably try to go for an All Ireland. As it is right now, my priorities are necessarily somewhere else. To the winner, good luck, i'll drink a pint for ye!
g
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by glauber
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Sounds like contests are the same everywhere! I went to an American Old Time fiddle contest a few years ago to see what they were about. I was, in my naivete, completely shocked when everyone who placed played exactly the same style. Super fast, super fancy "contest style" fiddling. The really good players (and there were several) who played any other way were completely cut out. So, the lesson I took away from that was, if you want to win contests you have to figure out what the judges are looking for and go for it. If you want an *objective* critique of your fiddling, contests aren't the place to look. But if you have fun getting ready for them and can manage not to take them seriously (even if you win), then go for it. Otherwise, they aren't worth the mental anguish they can cause.
I'm in the "avoid them at all costs" camp, myself. I know that getting ready to compete really forces you to practice and do your best, but for me, the days afterward of walking around with the "I suck!!" bubble over my head would not be worth it. And really, if the winners have already essentially been decided, why bother? Nope. I might be in the audience cheering you on but otherwise I'll be down at the pub as well, *grin*.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
What, setting yourself up for "humiliation" and an "ego-crush" is *good,* then? Make up your minds, kids. "It's okay for you poor pitiable people who want to crush yourselves at a competition" doesn't hack it as a way of saying that you can see competitions in a positive light -- and there's nothing particularly wrong with thinking that competitions are bad things. Chris, no adjudicator would want you to walk around with the "I suck" balloon over your head, whether they place you or not -- and they did not place it there for you...you did. I think you know that, and that's why you don't compete.
I will still hope to teach my students who compete to see competitions in a more healthy light rather than just saying that competitions are only about the placing and winning the prizes. To me, all of my students (a mix of adults and children) are prizewinners and champions, because they all try their best. I don't want the legacy I leave my students to be "only compete if you're going to win." I want it to be "you are the only one who can give yourself the real prize" -- and lots of them don't need competitions for that. Some, however, enjoy the competitions, and I don't find anything wrong with that either.
Parenthetically, the school I teach for is one that is well-known for the emphasis we place on the form as well as the art of dance. Dance, like music to me, is also a craft as well as an art. Any craft, Glauber, can be judged by a standard. And the standard can be very different depending on who sets it up.
I'm a former SAG/AFTRA actress. And I believe that most art can indeed be judged by standards to a certain extent, though not all the way to the top.
But I'll leave you guys to each other now on this, as I am obviously a minority voice in this and don't see that this opinion is particularly welcome on this subject.
See you guys around.
Zina
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Of *course* that's why I would never compete, Zina! I'm fully aware that *I* am the one who places that over my head. And I wish I could see competing in the positive light that you do. It's much more sensible. But I can't, though I've tried, and I wasn't weighing in on the discussion to add to what you must have seen as a "dogpile" onto you! I was just adding my two cents. I'm really sorry if it seemed like a put-down of your point of view. It certainly was NOT meant to be. Apologies, apologies!
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Zina: I'll hitch a ride on your one-girl bandwagon.
I'm an Irish dancer, and I compete. Christine, the reason that you would never compete is the reason I do; maybe I'm just into self-torture ;) but I compete to work through the negativity. I compete to see it's positive side, to connect with people, to see what others might think of my dancing besides my teachers. I haven't always had a good time with it, either. There's been many times that I've stuck an "I suck" neon blinking sign over my head.
And you know what, a few times that I've done that - said no, I was terrible, that was crap and I'm never going to place, we drove all these hours and I didn't work hard enough - I place. I placed second, I placed third, I placed highly and competition pulled me up by my bootstraps, not me.
I don't know about music competitions yet - they're probably another game - but I think I've benefitted from competitions and sticking my neck out. I've become stronger for it, and I feel that it has helped me tap into something that I was scared to do before. It helped me tap into the courage I had to do things I wouldn't normally have the courage to do.
Performance also can give us these opportunities to grow - bad performances, good performances... the ones you think you bombed in and go home sulking but the next day somebody comes up to you and says something about it that makes your week.
So it really doesn't matter where it comes from. We all have our ways of satisfaction, and as we're different people, we'll have different opinions on them.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Diochra
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
In support of a minority voice, and in an effort to get everybody to do a quick reality check, remember this about any form of competition...it IS about performing to meet a standard...it is NOT about performing with your friends in the pub. If you don't like it, don't agree with it, feel that it is not for you, then leave for those that enjoy it.
I have said previously that competitions have their place and I disagree entirely that they should be maligned for not maintaining regional style...that's not the function. The function is to choose the most proficient player, as the judges see it, on any given day. It is as far removed from the music discussed on this forum as you could get, and, just as everybody was very vocal about session etiquette, competition standards have their own etiquette.
For all the free-spirit soul musicians among us...don't knock competing. It is an important step on somebody's road to self awareness, just as not competing is for you.
Andy
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by Mcbear365
Zina, your opinion is never "unwelcome". I hope that *no one's* opinion is unwelcome on this site which has one rule, "Be Civil." You may feel like the minority just because you articulate your point so well that many of us who agree with you feel that we have nothing to add.
] . . . Trite as it may be, variety *is* the spice of life.
I have never been in a music competition and have never even witnessed one, so for me this is purely a thought-experiment. The closest thing in my experience is showing dogs in obedience trials. Granted, judging in an obedience trial is (or ought to be!) more objective than a fleadh, but there are similarities. Competitors come in with different personal goals. Some people are really driven to compete; they really want to win that ribbon or trophy or be High in Trial. Others just hope to pass and don't care about placing. Some get really upset when they don't do as well as they'd hoped; others are disappointed but shrug it off; some have the grace and sense of humor to laugh about their foibles immediately. For all of us, though, the greatest benefit of the competition has nothing to do with whether we win or lose. The daily training in preparation for the trial is where the real benefit lies. In dog training, it's the strengthening of communication between human and dog, the deepening of the relationship, the joy of learning to work together as a team. In music, it's developing your musical skills, pushing your limits, getting closer to producing the sounds you hear in your head.
Competitions can be a great motivator -- they provide a goal to work toward. Many people enjoy the social aspects of competitions, too. In my opinion, if you're doing competitions, and you feel you're getting something worthwhile out of it, then it's the right thing for you to do. If you're doing it and all you're getting is stress and negative feelings, then something needs to change -- maybe it's just your own attitude that needs adjusting, or maybe that particular competition isn't right for you, or maybe competition in general just isn't your thing.
You decide what's right for you. What works best for me may be something different. We aren't all alike, and that's a good thing. Imagine a session with 12 fiddles and nothing else. Isn't it a lot more fun to have some variety -- a couple fiddles, a couple flutes and whistles, a mandolin, a button accordion, a pipe player, a guitar, a bodhran [ONE!
So cheer up now, Zina! Quit sulking at the bar and come back to the session; we like what your fiddle adds to the tunes.
Sarah
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by x
Competing
Same here.
I mean, i've played flute for a long time now, and i *can* play better than a lot of people, but it just takes one listen of Mike McGoldrick, for example, to see that i am not and will never be in that league. So, my only hope is that there will be, indeed, a few street corners in Heaven where people can still play for fun, without being in that league.
Sorry, Zina! I'm not sure why, but the issue of musician competitions causes a visceral reaction from me. The usual reaction is that "i don't want to compete or be better than anyone else, i just want to play music". I half-suspect that the reason is that i'm not really that good.
But it is true also that i don't care to try to prove that i'm better than anyone else. My dog (the dog who lives with me), on the other hand, IS the best dog in the world!
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by glauber
Dogs
Oooo, Glauber, can we talk about our dogs now? This thread is probably long enough that it's due to get sidetracked, don't you think?
Now, my ten-year-old golden retriever truly IS the best dog in the world. (The two I had before her were also the best in the world.) Maybe that's why I only enter competitions as a team with my dog. She's smart, loyal, beautiful, friendly, never grouchy, always up for a party, quick to forgive, sees the good in everyone she meets, and only puts her foot in her mouth intentionally, because she really does want to chew on it.
Sarah
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by x
Back to perspective
hey all, i'm writting this to try and bring the conversation back into perspective. This isnt a slanging match, basicly all we are doing is viewing our different opinions, yours is very welcome. the reason i posted my comments was to hear what other people think that like competing, normally people agree with me and leave it at that. but Zlee, if you like competing, i'll respect that, i mightnt understand it fully but i still respect that.so please dont take it the wrong way, i think that this could be a very benificial conversation for us all if we(including me) keep our cool.
Now, i think i need to differ with one or two of the comments there. "You and anyone else are NOT your ability to play music"
Here in ireland there is a saying, "you might be able to take the musician from the music, but you cant take the music from the musician"
Music, is one of the talents that makes us as people special, otherwise we are just ordinary people. its the gift that gives us the edge. and to not be getting placed in competitions (allthough i agree you are improving by entering) is knocking you to a certain degree. ok some people can shun it off better than others, but no matter, how good you try to hide it, you still are dissapointed.
But personnly, aside from competition, Zlee, you have allready come up with the best way of uping your standard,- The Mighty craic albumb ! there is no better way, it gets you to work, put in the practice, and you are definatly not beeing evaluated, it is a celabration of all our talents, and no better way !
talk to you later,
Martin.
# Posted on May 28th 2002 by martin t
Re: DUBLIN FLEADH
Even though I don't think I'm the type to be in a competition, I sure understand how good
they can be for some folks. My kids absolutely thrive on competitions. They love the
motivation they get from preparing for a competition knowing they can be rewarded if they
win. They absolutely aren't afraid of losing. Both of them have made the most musical
progress in their young lives while preparing for the competitions. Both of them have
played in several competitions without placing, but one of them has placed once. Both of
them love it anyway.
Nah, I probably won't get into any competitions myself any time soon, but I think they
do a lot for the whole art, and for the folks who love to compete. I get a really
nice feeling knowing that some of ny favorite Irish trad teachers have won competitions.
I also get a nice feeling knowing I never have to enter one if I don't want to.
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by dirk