I've been playing a Clarke (I really like the wooden fipple sound, and the Clarke was the only cheep but good whistle I liked) but now I want to go a bit more 'upper class', although I know that a good instrument doesn't mean that I'll suddenly become a brillant musician.
So does anyone have any suggestions for a good high D whistle? Sort of.....below £150, but not a cheepo. I was thinking that new Kerry Songbird one.
Yes, but is there anywhere on the net where I can hear a recording. I've seen people playing those Burke whistles, but never really heard (it was in a session, too many people talking, playing, ye-hah-ing etc), and since they're around £130, I don't want to end up with something I don't really like.
I know some people who are pretty happy with the Burkes. They won't sound anything like your Clarke, however, if that is the sound you like. Perhaps you would like the sound of a wooden whistle instead. I have a Chris Abell whistle I've been playing for over 15 years. The tone is very rich.
I am a huge Burke fan...Go ahead and order one... in fact, order a few... You can send back the ones you don't want....
The only way I ever buy an instrument is to try it first. I only work with sellers/makers who offer a decent return policy (most do); so go ahead and order a bunch of whistles to try... You can send'em ALL back if none strike yer fancy....
I don't know this burke whistles. Heard a lot of them but never seen or heard one. Myself I play on a Colin Goldie Overton. It's somewhere around 180 euro's, and the best whistle I ever had my hands on. great tuning, big sound, ....
Maybe a tip
Try the composite Burke D for that woody sound
(hmm... sounds like wine talk... has good legs, but a bit thin at first note)- that's what I'm getting in February
Generation whistle, or Walton. Both cost about £3 and seem to have been good enough for years. The whole idea of the "penny" whistle was that it was cheap. Has rampant capitalism caught up with ITM?
I'd highly recommend a narrow-bore D from Gary Humphrey. Apparently, Sean Potts tried one and said his Generation from the early days of the Chieftains was almost as good! http://webpages.charter.net/raindog1970/
Sindts are also top notch, but there's about an 8-month wait.
Burkes are fantastic. Paddy Keenan, Liam Kelly, Joannie Madden and Mick O'Brien are playing them, possibly others who've recorded. I have a wide bore D, C, Bb and low F. All of them are the best whistles I've ever played or owned.
I love my Burke, great tone and air requirements are low for such a big whistle. I just got a Greenwood D whistle in boxwood, and I must say, it has the cleanest and prettiest tone of any whistle I've ever heard. They're on the expensive side for whistles, but on the cheaper side if you want a QUALITY wooden whistle at only $200 new. I only got it in the mail today and already I am totally in love with it! If you like the sound of a wooden whistle, go Greenwood.
Generation whistles are the example of rampant capitalism. Pumping out tons of cheap items for the masses with an eye to the profit margin, not the quality of the item.
Burke is an example of the old fashioned craftsman, hand making fine items and struggling to make enough money for his labor to get by, because he's more interested in producing quality than profit (I guarandamntee you Burke makes less money than the CEO of Generation).
Yes, against the products of rampant capitalism the price of the craftsman's products will always be high, but you are confusing the price with conspicuous consumerism. We're talking about legitmate tools here, not useless, expensive gewgaws that sit on the mantle to impress the neighbors with how much money you can spend on something entirely useless or unnecessary.
A professional's tools made by a skilled professional are *always* going to cost far more than the mass produced by accountants, but inferior, factory items.
You've gotten your critical wires crossed. Save your critcism for when you see the first diamond encrusted whistle claiming to be tuned to the "quantum flux of the universe". Then it will be appropriate.
That said, I play a Generation, but I'm looking at the bamboo and ABS whistles of Eric the Flutemaker. Nice sounding whistles at a truely affordable price. Only available in C and D though, so not the whistle specialists choice. Eric is probably the Quena maker of choice though, if you aren't prepared to simply make your own (it's just a tube with holes in. It isn't what you could call hard to make one, but it is a damnably fussy and time consuming process. Some of us have more time than money and simply like to make our own things ).
KFG, international man of mystery, the "international" must mean Trotskyite, a bit like myself. Everything you say is true but look at it this way.
If I take up golf, not very Trot I admit, I don't need what Tiger uses, a £90 set, complete with trolley, will do me. If I want to play a guitar at a session a Yamaha 310, £90, will be excellent, I don't need a Martin, Lowden or Taylor. However If I want to do Glastonbury, or play at Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto skydrome, well I might invest money in a better class instrument. I believe that unless you are earning good money from playing, or you have loads of money, a "standard" instrument will do.
Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint, and couldn't afford to support the craftsman. Funny that, you need to be a high income earner to support the craftsman and small business, the masses are too busy trying to keep their heads above water.
Alba or Burke it is up to you the Albas are louder I remember a Session in December 6 wistlers including myself the majority playing Burkes one playing an old Gen and me with the Alba and the Alba overpowered most of them. Of course they are both great whistles and you will probably be happy with bot of them here is a link to the Alba site http://www.albawhistles.com/
No, not Trotskyite, Thoreauean. Marx and Trotsky where actually corporatist. I'm individualist. Too individualist to make a decent anarchist . . .let alone a "working man."
Hey, look, like I said I play a Generation, actually got rid of my Martin D28 in favor of a Japanese laminate guitar, because I thought it was a *better* instrument, and my fiddle is Chinese (ok, so maybe I'm taking capitalist advantage of Marxism there).
"If I take up golf, not very Trot I admit. . ."
Why? Do you view the working man as nothing but a manufacturing robot whose only function is his "job," and that he shouldn't be allowed to enjoy himself from the fruits of his labor, or even feel ashamed if he does so? Do you inherently mentally divide all leisure actitiies by "appropriate class"? Why on earth do that? Isn't whacking a ball around fun for everyone?
Here's the real reason not to spend as much on clubs as Tiger;
Because you would *derive no benefit* from doing so. Your playing ablility isn't good enough to make proper use of the tools. As soon as it is, for God's sake man, buy yourself the proper items commensurate with your skill level.
I'd make a lousy Calvanist/Marxist. I don't even *understand* the "work ethic," and yet I'm likely to put far more real labor into my works than the factory worker is (go ahead, try hand making a good keyless flute), and be considered a "lazy bum" for doing so.
Go figure.
"However If I want to do Glastonbury, or play at Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto skydrome, well I might invest money in a better class instrument."
No, you've got this backwards as well. Yankee Stadium is a working class gig, for which you leave your Lowden at home and take along the "stage axe" Takamine or Ibanez. The audience won't even be able to tell the difference in that enviroment, and most them couldn't care less anyway.
You haul the Lowden to the small "listening room" where the audience is likely to be comprised mostly of other musicians, or at least true afficianados.
"Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint. . ."
In other words, corporatist. You rely on others to provide you with something productive to do and and some trivial monetary recompense out of *their* profits for doing it and are likely incapable of simply taking care of yourself outside of that enviroment, something any newborn cockroach can accomplish, relying on others in the same corporate structure to do these things for you in exchange for the money you derived from your own corporate activities.
Try minding your *own* business now and again.
". . .and couldn't afford to support the craftsman."
So become one.
And buy a good whistle if you can afford it and are skilled enough to make it sing.
If Glastonbury, Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto Skydome were the entry point for a Martin, Lowden, or Taylor... I think these companies would not be very happy ;-}
I have a Martin and I look at it like this. I will play this instrument for the rest of my life, so if I live a normal life span that is about $20 a year. And everyday I get to listen to this rich beautiful guitar. I still have my old piece of crap acoustic. My wife who knows NOTHING about instruments, says the old one sounds like a garbage can with strings on it compared to the Martin.
And then you have to consider that people spend much more on cars, televisions, and computers which only last a few years in comparison. That is the real waste.
A beautiful sounding instrument will last a lifetime and actually make that lifetime worth living. Especially if you're working everyday to get by.
Someone with a degree in economics could no doubt explain why, but as I understand it the only way to make a living at building instruments is to charge about 3 times what it actually costs to make it.
Hence the £200 hand-whittled penny whistle.
My partner had a breathy Clarkes C, so I gave her more modern and synthetic materials one for Christmas. Now she wants a low C to g with it (she already plays the wooden flute, so she doesn't want a low D). This is the person who critised me for getting another concertina and a bouzouki.
I agree with everything about beautiful instruments lasting a lifetime ( hopefully ) and worth every penny. I still spend far more on my car, which only is an expensive convenience.
How much do you think it costs to whack a ball about, and as for a takamine, you are way out of my league. One of the best guitarists I know, the strings at £5.99 cost more than his current guitar.
I appreciate the bit about a good instrument lasting a lifetime, but it is difficult to get the music shop to accept $20 a year as a HP agreement.
As for TVs, cars and computers, the fella with the £4 guitar tries to buy food instead. Even in this day of credit cards, you need some form of income to get one.
By the way KFG, no-one has the work ethic, the theory of alienation is certainly true. As for starting my own business, I would but I have a socialist conscience which is a serious drawback, it's better to have no conscience at all if you are a business man.
KFG, you shouldn't have mentioned Chicken Wire clubs, it means you are no longer "international", although the way Donald and Dick are going you could be soon. Incidently, Thoreau, being American, is not that well known in Europe, but to me he was the original "diceman". Did you ever read that? Now that is anarchy.
". . .as I understand it the only way to make a living at building instruments is to charge about 3 times what it actually costs to make it."
It's simple enough, without even a degree in economics. The materials in a Burke whistle are worth little more than pennies actually, but it takes a considerable amount of *time* to make one.
Don't most people get paid by the hour? If you put in a week of work, don't you need to eat for that week, and cover that week's rent? If you charge what something costs to make *you* make nothing.
Not to mention the capital investment in unpaid time that it took to develop the skills. In the case of a fiddle maker that can be several years and cost tens of thousands of dollars that need to be recouped.
Labor is the primary expense in nearly anything, not the materials, and to see why it is simply necessary to take my advice. Try making yourself a simple flute. When you are done ask yourself it you would only be able to charge the dollar or so you spent on the tube in order to make a living.
There's about a $100 worth of materials in a Top-O-The -Line Chinese fiddle that goes for a few hundred bucks, and about $120 worth of materials (assuming they don't use 200 year old wood or something) in a $5000 American made fiddle (most of that is simply in the strings)..
The difference in cost is simply the difference in the cost of the labor (and that difference in cost may or may not buy you anything in terms of instrument quality, depending on the particular builder/s).
". . .it's better to have no conscience at all if you are a business man."
If you define having no conscience as "better." Please note though that I said nothing about your becoming a businessman, nor do I see how making nice things (and paying taxes if and when you sell them) is not productively contributory to the social welfare.
I, however, am a simple busker and tutor. The opinion of my students as to my *social* conscience is all I really concern myself with, and they all think rather highly of it (especially the one who couldn't afford even a decent plywood guitar, so I, of my own accord, went into debt to buy him one, and he's paying it back as he can. Perhaps it would be "better" if I didn't do business that way, but I like to sleep at night).
The irony is that being a "working man" means that your money is inherently a product of that conscienseless businessman and your money is thus just as tainted as his. Just because *you* do not do the coniving and stealing does not mean it is not being done to your benefit. Put that conscienceless business man out and you are out as well, no matter your socialist conscience.
Money you earn on your own, with your own sense of conscience, is not. Are you happy with the job you did mowing that guy's lawn? Is he happy as well? Then where is there a reason to feel a lack of concscience? Does some of that money go toward the socialized medicine program and building the roads you needed to get to the lawn? Then where is the lack of socialist contribution?
"By which I mean the amusement value at the expression on the faces of your customers and clients etc when you refuse to charge them for something you wanted to do yourself makes it all worthwhile."
Another Amen!
". . .you shouldn't have mentioned Chicken Wire clubs, it means you are no longer "international""
And again you have it backwards. Being *unaware* of them would have made me less international. Being aware of them; and where the good busking spots in Prague, Oaxaca and Saratoga Springs are; makes me international.
By the way, there's a blind flamenco guitarist in Oaxaca who plays a box I wouldn't give to my cat who kicks some serious butt.
SINDT, Oak, Hoover, a really good Generation (do a little searching, they DO in fact exist), Burke, Rose, O'Riordan, O'Briain, Schultz......
The list is long, and many are considered top makers by their respective players. Best thing to do is try as many as you can from as many different makers first. Frequent any sessions you can find, and ask folks to play their whistles for you - and if you're really nice, you might be offered a chance to try them yourself.
"Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint, and couldn't afford to support the craftsman. Funny that, you need to be a high income earner to support the craftsman and small business, the masses are too busy trying to keep their heads above water."
". . .a really good Generation (do a little searching, they DO in fact exist). . . "
It's that manufacturing tolerance thing. Every now and again an exceptional example comes off the line just out of pure chance.
I've had people with nice, old (and very pricey) fiddles compliment my Chinese jobber and think I was pulling a fast one when I told them:
"Oh, it's nothing special. Just some Chinese student cheapass thing."
"Yeah. Right. And you can't really play either. No, what is it *really*?"
But you don't get one of those by simply pulling one at random off the rack. You have to spend some time digging through the bins (and with an ear for potential. Even the best Chinese fiddles still don't come with even the hint of decent base setup, and I think their bridges are all carved out scrap flooring by 6 year olds. And of course they're all very green and will take some time to start "coming in").
And time is money. For some people it may actually be more finacially viable to just put in a little overtime (which also doesn't entail the expense of going from shop to shop. The gas and milage on the car goes into the cost of the intrument) and buy a Burke than spend hours hunting up a good Generation.
K is right. I'm sure I've spent well over a hundred bucks over several years trying to find a decent cheap high D whistle. I never found one. I did luck into a fairly good C and a nice Bb.
Oh, in my defense, in case you think I'm even dumber than I am for wasting that money, this was before the availability of high quality whistles. The only way to get a good one was to try and try again.
"I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument, I just wanted a little advice."
Oh, man, did *you* come to the wrong place. : )
In any case anytime you ask advice on a purely subjective topic it's bound to at least generate some "debate." Just ignore the putzes (Such as myself. Oh, and "putz" is a good Irish word, isn't it?) and you'll find the advice you were looking for right next to the pony.
I now have this picture of a boxes of Generation whistles around the world that have been blown by thousands of shoppers testing and looking for that special masterpiece that accidentally came off the production line, despite QC's best efforts.
I wonder if this has been factored into CDC's models for the spread of SARS and influenza.
Ah, well, as Bobhi intimates, and I neglected to explicitly point out in my earlier post (although I had intended to. My mind, what there is of it, wanders) this isn't typically how it's done.
What you do is buy a whistle. It sucks. So you go buy another one. It sucks. So you. . .
Rinse and repeat.
Pretty soon you have a $100 Generation whistle (which might very well suck), or $200 if you count the value of your time and cost of going to shop over and over again.
Life is easier with guitars and fiddles, until you get up into highest regions again.
You have an instrument custom made for several thousand dollars, you decide it sucks for some reason, so you. . .
Oh, if you're the right sort of person, at least all the kids in the neighborhood appreciate all the free whistles you hand out, although their parents may not look upon it quite so kindly.
Yeah, I've probably given away most of the whistles I've bought. I have a nice Copeland low G (bought it when they were "cheap" - $160), but not a decent high D. Wait, what was the original topic?
for a sound recording, this sample of my uncle playing has a burke whistle. my uncle stopped playing whistles because they were out of tune until the burkes came out.
My three favorite whistles, in no particular order, are:
1) Burke Pro Session (black-tip) D
2) Paul Busman Kingwood D
3) Sweet "Professional" Birch Laminate D
All three are very different whistles. I like the Burke for sessions because it's loud enough for me to hear it, but not so loud that the fiddler gives me dirty looks. It has a wonderful, warm, very traditional sound.
The Busman is louder than the Burke. Because it's natural hardwood, it has to be babied a bit...oiled occasionally, kept from rapidly fluctuating temperatures, etc. The tone is the most complex of all my whistles...rich and warm, and totally addictive.
The Sweet Pro looks like natural wood but, because it's a laminate, it doesn't have to be babied. Because of its shape, I've gotten used to explaining to people that it's NOT a recorder! It is the loudest of the three...very pure-toned, with a full voice. It never clogs, and even stands up to windy conditions out of doors. It's my Morris whistle.
These are the three things, other than my husband, my kid and my pets, that I would grab if I had to leave a burning building.
The "Professional" Dymondwood ( a wood composite material) whistles sold by The Sweetheart Flute Company have a very lovely tone, if you fancy wooden whistles, and the price is very competitive at $135, and the thing is just about as indestructable as an ABS whistle.
Or, if you're tired of snobbish flute players looking down on your "beginner's" instrument, they offer the same thing in African Blackwood with silver rings and a G key for $350, and, as we all know, nothing says "Irish" like wood imported from Africa.
Any o' y'uns ever substitute a recorder for whistle? I've diddlied just a bit on my soprano recorder and thought it had interesting possibilities for Irish toons.
yes, the problem with recorders is that everyone plays those godawful cheap ones! i dont like the way it sits on a tenor, but ITM sits great on alto and soprano. sopranino is ok except for when it goes high.... i've been afraid to try it on garkleind (sp). the problem are the rolls... e roll is fine, f# blips a bit, g is ok if you tap it with an f (which maybe some people might notice as changing the mood of it), and the others are fine. the high b (or e on alto / sopranino) fingered ilke a silver flute 3d octave e (xxo xxo), and i havent even bothered trying to role that.
the thing about the recorder compared to the tin whistle is that it has a full chromatic range, which makes the fingerings more awkward for playing very quickly. it is great for playing music in other keys, but it can be awkward and it doesnt seem to worth it to learn ITM on a recorder seriously unless you: 1.) play the recorder and dont know the whistle (but the whistle isnt hard so suck it up, ^_^) 2.) you play the recorder and whistle already and want to have fun wit hit 3.) you are bored and like learning new instruments.
on the plus side, you can join recorder / early music societies which are loads of fun. but you'll have to know how to play many accidentals, but its worth it.
haha, sorry! didnt mean to kill the theme of the thread.
I certainly do. Typos happen, particularly when I'm the typist.
"2.) you play the recorder and whistle already and want to have fun wit hit 3.) you are bored and like learning new instruments."
Pretty much sums it up. I play a bit of ITM and Oldtimey music on soprano and alto, and you'll generally find a plastic soprano in my guitar case (an Aulos. Not at all bad really. A much better instrument than, say, my East German Maple Adler. That one's good to take camping. You might need the extra firewood).
But you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The cross fingering is a pain and I generally avoid tunes that require it. Cluck Old Hen is a very nice soprano recorder tune.
So mostly I use it to play baroque music for myself and/or cat.
I bought one and really loved the sound - very clean and clear. Then some B**tard stole it from me at Derrygonnelly and I haven't got round to getting another.
Not very loud but a delicious tone.
In my humble opinion it is a steal at Euro 29 [£20] and that includes shipping. In fact I think I'll go on line with them and order one right now!!
I love my O Briain "improved" too, but it's pretty quiet...not a great session whistle (assuming that's what you want it for). Some newer players find them a bit hyper-sensitive, but I love the way you can just think "next octave" and up it goes.
Yes, the "Dymondwood" Sweetheart Professional is the one I have, and I'm thrilled with it. He's got some right now he's selling for about $10 off because there's a slight color mismatch between the head and the body.
There are many fine whistles out there. chiffandfipple.com has a lot of reviews, but here's what I'm a fan of -
(sort of cheap) Syn whistles. They come with exchangable bodies in different keys. Nice and loud, good tone, kind of a high air req. so you'll get good lungs.
(middle) PVC Thin Weasel - made by Glenn Schultz in MI. I like the resistance and they're very facile (i.e., they kind of want to be played fast). The best ones have visible plumber's code
(a little more) a Sindt. You'll have to be on a waiting list, but these are fine, fine whistles.
You can hear a lot of clips and chiff and fipple too, that should help you make a decision.
Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I've been playing a Clarke (I really like the wooden fipple sound, and the Clarke was the only cheep but good whistle I liked) but now I want to go a bit more 'upper class', although I know that a good instrument doesn't mean that I'll suddenly become a brillant musician.
So does anyone have any suggestions for a good high D whistle? Sort of.....below £150, but not a cheepo. I was thinking that new Kerry Songbird one.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Folkie Junkie
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I am about to purchase a Michael Burke whistle which I am reliably informed is one of the best on the market. http://www.burkewhistles.com/
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by breandan
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Yeah, Burke whistle is nice and I've been thinking about getting it for long. Tony Dixon whislte is much cheaper and quite good though.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by slainte
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Yes, but is there anywhere on the net where I can hear a recording. I've seen people playing those Burke whistles, but never really heard (it was in a session, too many people talking, playing, ye-hah-ing etc), and since they're around £130, I don't want to end up with something I don't really like.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Folkie Junkie
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I know some people who are pretty happy with the Burkes. They won't sound anything like your Clarke, however, if that is the sound you like. Perhaps you would like the sound of a wooden whistle instead. I have a Chris Abell whistle I've been playing for over 15 years. The tone is very rich.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by kate-dowling
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I am a huge Burke fan...Go ahead and order one... in fact, order a few... You can send back the ones you don't want....
The only way I ever buy an instrument is to try it first. I only work with sellers/makers who offer a decent return policy (most do); so go ahead and order a bunch of whistles to try... You can send'em ALL back if none strike yer fancy....
Have fun!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by bestcraic
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I don't know this burke whistles. Heard a lot of them but never seen or heard one. Myself I play on a Colin Goldie Overton. It's somewhere around 180 euro's, and the best whistle I ever had my hands on. great tuning, big sound, ....
Maybe a tip
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Four-Fingered Fre
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Try the composite Burke D for that woody sound
(hmm... sounds like wine talk... has good legs, but a bit thin at first note)- that's what I'm getting in February
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by I_Fel
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Generation whistle, or Walton. Both cost about £3 and seem to have been good enough for years. The whole idea of the "penny" whistle was that it was cheap. Has rampant capitalism caught up with ITM?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I'd highly recommend a narrow-bore D from Gary Humphrey. Apparently, Sean Potts tried one and said his Generation from the early days of the Chieftains was almost as good!
http://webpages.charter.net/raindog1970/
Sindts are also top notch, but there's about an 8-month wait.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Tintin
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"Good enough" is relative. I've owned a lot of cheap whistles, mostly Generations, and only one of them plays really well and sounds really good.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Burkes are fantastic. Paddy Keenan, Liam Kelly, Joannie Madden and Mick O'Brien are playing them, possibly others who've recorded. I have a wide bore D, C, Bb and low F. All of them are the best whistles I've ever played or owned.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by meemtp
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I love my Burke, great tone and air requirements are low for such a big whistle. I just got a Greenwood D whistle in boxwood, and I must say, it has the cleanest and prettiest tone of any whistle I've ever heard. They're on the expensive side for whistles, but on the cheaper side if you want a QUALITY wooden whistle at only $200 new. I only got it in the mail today and already I am totally in love with it! If you like the sound of a wooden whistle, go Greenwood.
Cheers,
Mike
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by CaliforniaPiper
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"Has rampant capitalism caught up with ITM?"
Generation whistles are the example of rampant capitalism. Pumping out tons of cheap items for the masses with an eye to the profit margin, not the quality of the item.
Burke is an example of the old fashioned craftsman, hand making fine items and struggling to make enough money for his labor to get by, because he's more interested in producing quality than profit (I guarandamntee you Burke makes less money than the CEO of Generation).
Yes, against the products of rampant capitalism the price of the craftsman's products will always be high, but you are confusing the price with conspicuous consumerism. We're talking about legitmate tools here, not useless, expensive gewgaws that sit on the mantle to impress the neighbors with how much money you can spend on something entirely useless or unnecessary.
A professional's tools made by a skilled professional are *always* going to cost far more than the mass produced by accountants, but inferior, factory items.
You've gotten your critical wires crossed. Save your critcism for when you see the first diamond encrusted whistle claiming to be tuned to the "quantum flux of the universe". Then it will be appropriate.
That said, I play a Generation, but I'm looking at the bamboo and ABS whistles of Eric the Flutemaker. Nice sounding whistles at a truely affordable price. Only available in C and D though, so not the whistle specialists choice. Eric is probably the Quena maker of choice though, if you aren't prepared to simply make your own (it's just a tube with holes in. It isn't what you could call hard to make one, but it is a damnably fussy and time consuming process. Some of us have more time than money and simply like to make our own things ).
KFG
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
KFG, international man of mystery, the "international" must mean Trotskyite, a bit like myself. Everything you say is true but look at it this way.
If I take up golf, not very Trot I admit, I don't need what Tiger uses, a £90 set, complete with trolley, will do me. If I want to play a guitar at a session a Yamaha 310, £90, will be excellent, I don't need a Martin, Lowden or Taylor. However If I want to do Glastonbury, or play at Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto skydrome, well I might invest money in a better class instrument. I believe that unless you are earning good money from playing, or you have loads of money, a "standard" instrument will do.
Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint, and couldn't afford to support the craftsman. Funny that, you need to be a high income earner to support the craftsman and small business, the masses are too busy trying to keep their heads above water.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Alba or Burke it is up to you the Albas are louder I remember a Session in December 6 wistlers including myself the majority playing Burkes one playing an old Gen and me with the Alba and the Alba overpowered most of them. Of course they are both great whistles and you will probably be happy with bot of them here is a link to the Alba site http://www.albawhistles.com/
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
No, not Trotskyite, Thoreauean. Marx and Trotsky where actually corporatist. I'm individualist. Too individualist to make a decent anarchist . . .let alone a "working man."
Hey, look, like I said I play a Generation, actually got rid of my Martin D28 in favor of a Japanese laminate guitar, because I thought it was a *better* instrument, and my fiddle is Chinese (ok, so maybe I'm taking capitalist advantage of Marxism there).
"If I take up golf, not very Trot I admit. . ."
Why? Do you view the working man as nothing but a manufacturing robot whose only function is his "job," and that he shouldn't be allowed to enjoy himself from the fruits of his labor, or even feel ashamed if he does so? Do you inherently mentally divide all leisure actitiies by "appropriate class"? Why on earth do that? Isn't whacking a ball around fun for everyone?
Here's the real reason not to spend as much on clubs as Tiger;
Because you would *derive no benefit* from doing so. Your playing ablility isn't good enough to make proper use of the tools. As soon as it is, for God's sake man, buy yourself the proper items commensurate with your skill level.
I'd make a lousy Calvanist/Marxist. I don't even *understand* the "work ethic," and yet I'm likely to put far more real labor into my works than the factory worker is (go ahead, try hand making a good keyless flute), and be considered a "lazy bum" for doing so.
Go figure.
"However If I want to do Glastonbury, or play at Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto skydrome, well I might invest money in a better class instrument."
No, you've got this backwards as well. Yankee Stadium is a working class gig, for which you leave your Lowden at home and take along the "stage axe" Takamine or Ibanez. The audience won't even be able to tell the difference in that enviroment, and most them couldn't care less anyway.
You haul the Lowden to the small "listening room" where the audience is likely to be comprised mostly of other musicians, or at least true afficianados.
"Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint. . ."
In other words, corporatist. You rely on others to provide you with something productive to do and and some trivial monetary recompense out of *their* profits for doing it and are likely incapable of simply taking care of yourself outside of that enviroment, something any newborn cockroach can accomplish, relying on others in the same corporate structure to do these things for you in exchange for the money you derived from your own corporate activities.
Try minding your *own* business now and again.
". . .and couldn't afford to support the craftsman."
So become one.
And buy a good whistle if you can afford it and are skilled enough to make it sing.
There's *no shame* in demonstrating your skills.
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
If Glastonbury, Yankee Stadium, or the Toronto Skydome were the entry point for a Martin, Lowden, or Taylor... I think these companies would not be very happy ;-}
I have a Martin and I look at it like this. I will play this instrument for the rest of my life, so if I live a normal life span that is about $20 a year. And everyday I get to listen to this rich beautiful guitar. I still have my old piece of crap acoustic. My wife who knows NOTHING about instruments, says the old one sounds like a garbage can with strings on it compared to the Martin.
And then you have to consider that people spend much more on cars, televisions, and computers which only last a few years in comparison. That is the real waste.
A beautiful sounding instrument will last a lifetime and actually make that lifetime worth living. Especially if you're working everyday to get by.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by jcoyle
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"That is the real waste."
Amen!
"A beautiful sounding instrument will last a lifetime and actually make that lifetime worth living."
And a "Say Hallelujah. Testify!"
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Someone with a degree in economics could no doubt explain why, but as I understand it the only way to make a living at building instruments is to charge about 3 times what it actually costs to make it.
Hence the £200 hand-whittled penny whistle.
My partner had a breathy Clarkes C, so I gave her more modern and synthetic materials one for Christmas. Now she wants a low C to g with it (she already plays the wooden flute, so she doesn't want a low D). This is the person who critised me for getting another concertina and a bouzouki.
I agree with everything about beautiful instruments lasting a lifetime ( hopefully ) and worth every penny. I still spend far more on my car, which only is an expensive convenience.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
How much do you think it costs to whack a ball about, and as for a takamine, you are way out of my league. One of the best guitarists I know, the strings at £5.99 cost more than his current guitar.
I appreciate the bit about a good instrument lasting a lifetime, but it is difficult to get the music shop to accept $20 a year as a HP agreement.
As for TVs, cars and computers, the fella with the £4 guitar tries to buy food instead. Even in this day of credit cards, you need some form of income to get one.
By the way KFG, no-one has the work ethic, the theory of alienation is certainly true. As for starting my own business, I would but I have a socialist conscience which is a serious drawback, it's better to have no conscience at all if you are a business man.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
KFG, you shouldn't have mentioned Chicken Wire clubs, it means you are no longer "international", although the way Donald and Dick are going you could be soon. Incidently, Thoreau, being American, is not that well known in Europe, but to me he was the original "diceman". Did you ever read that? Now that is anarchy.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Guernsey Pete has the right idea. The only thing with a bigger mark up price than instruments is coffins.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
". . .as I understand it the only way to make a living at building instruments is to charge about 3 times what it actually costs to make it."
It's simple enough, without even a degree in economics. The materials in a Burke whistle are worth little more than pennies actually, but it takes a considerable amount of *time* to make one.
Don't most people get paid by the hour? If you put in a week of work, don't you need to eat for that week, and cover that week's rent? If you charge what something costs to make *you* make nothing.
Not to mention the capital investment in unpaid time that it took to develop the skills. In the case of a fiddle maker that can be several years and cost tens of thousands of dollars that need to be recouped.
Labor is the primary expense in nearly anything, not the materials, and to see why it is simply necessary to take my advice. Try making yourself a simple flute. When you are done ask yourself it you would only be able to charge the dollar or so you spent on the tube in order to make a living.
There's about a $100 worth of materials in a Top-O-The -Line Chinese fiddle that goes for a few hundred bucks, and about $120 worth of materials (assuming they don't use 200 year old wood or something) in a $5000 American made fiddle (most of that is simply in the strings)..
The difference in cost is simply the difference in the cost of the labor (and that difference in cost may or may not buy you anything in terms of instrument quality, depending on the particular builder/s).
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
". . .it's better to have no conscience at all if you are a business man."
If you define having no conscience as "better." Please note though that I said nothing about your becoming a businessman, nor do I see how making nice things (and paying taxes if and when you sell them) is not productively contributory to the social welfare.
I, however, am a simple busker and tutor. The opinion of my students as to my *social* conscience is all I really concern myself with, and they all think rather highly of it (especially the one who couldn't afford even a decent plywood guitar, so I, of my own accord, went into debt to buy him one, and he's paying it back as he can. Perhaps it would be "better" if I didn't do business that way, but I like to sleep at night).
The irony is that being a "working man" means that your money is inherently a product of that conscienseless businessman and your money is thus just as tainted as his. Just because *you* do not do the coniving and stealing does not mean it is not being done to your benefit. Put that conscienceless business man out and you are out as well, no matter your socialist conscience.
Money you earn on your own, with your own sense of conscience, is not. Are you happy with the job you did mowing that guy's lawn? Is he happy as well? Then where is there a reason to feel a lack of concscience? Does some of that money go toward the socialized medicine program and building the roads you needed to get to the lawn? Then where is the lack of socialist contribution?
"By which I mean the amusement value at the expression on the faces of your customers and clients etc when you refuse to charge them for something you wanted to do yourself makes it all worthwhile."
Another Amen!
". . .you shouldn't have mentioned Chicken Wire clubs, it means you are no longer "international""
And again you have it backwards. Being *unaware* of them would have made me less international. Being aware of them; and where the good busking spots in Prague, Oaxaca and Saratoga Springs are; makes me international.
By the way, there's a blind flamenco guitarist in Oaxaca who plays a box I wouldn't give to my cat who kicks some serious butt.
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I just got a Goldie Overton high D. Beautiful!!! I really recomend it. I bought it online at Bigwhistle for £95. The tone...!!
Athena
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by act
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
going on a Carribbean cruise. Back soon
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
SINDT, Oak, Hoover, a really good Generation (do a little searching, they DO in fact exist), Burke, Rose, O'Riordan, O'Briain, Schultz......
The list is long, and many are considered top makers by their respective players. Best thing to do is try as many as you can from as many different makers first. Frequent any sessions you can find, and ask folks to play their whistles for you - and if you're really nice, you might be offered a chance to try them yourself.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by uilleann_craic
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
bb, you are kidding aren't you???
"going on a Carribbean cruise. Back soon"
"Naturally I am coming from a working class viewpoint, and couldn't afford to support the craftsman. Funny that, you need to be a high income earner to support the craftsman and small business, the masses are too busy trying to keep their heads above water."
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by jcoyle
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
ok.....
I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument, I just wanted a little advice.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Folkie Junkie
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"bb, you are kidding aren't you???"
I believe the word is "sardonic."
". . .a really good Generation (do a little searching, they DO in fact exist). . . "
It's that manufacturing tolerance thing. Every now and again an exceptional example comes off the line just out of pure chance.
I've had people with nice, old (and very pricey) fiddles compliment my Chinese jobber and think I was pulling a fast one when I told them:
"Oh, it's nothing special. Just some Chinese student cheapass thing."
"Yeah. Right. And you can't really play either. No, what is it *really*?"
But you don't get one of those by simply pulling one at random off the rack. You have to spend some time digging through the bins (and with an ear for potential. Even the best Chinese fiddles still don't come with even the hint of decent base setup, and I think their bridges are all carved out scrap flooring by 6 year olds. And of course they're all very green and will take some time to start "coming in").
And time is money. For some people it may actually be more finacially viable to just put in a little overtime (which also doesn't entail the expense of going from shop to shop. The gas and milage on the car goes into the cost of the intrument) and buy a Burke than spend hours hunting up a good Generation.
And then they've got a Burke.
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
K is right. I'm sure I've spent well over a hundred bucks over several years trying to find a decent cheap high D whistle. I never found one. I did luck into a fairly good C and a nice Bb.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Oh, in my defense, in case you think I'm even dumber than I am for wasting that money, this was before the availability of high quality whistles. The only way to get a good one was to try and try again.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument, I just wanted a little advice."
Oh, man, did *you* come to the wrong place. : )
In any case anytime you ask advice on a purely subjective topic it's bound to at least generate some "debate." Just ignore the putzes (Such as myself. Oh, and "putz" is a good Irish word, isn't it?) and you'll find the advice you were looking for right next to the pony.
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I now have this picture of a boxes of Generation whistles around the world that have been blown by thousands of shoppers testing and looking for that special masterpiece that accidentally came off the production line, despite QC's best efforts.
I wonder if this has been factored into CDC's models for the spread of SARS and influenza.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by grego
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Ah, well, as Bobhi intimates, and I neglected to explicitly point out in my earlier post (although I had intended to. My mind, what there is of it, wanders) this isn't typically how it's done.
What you do is buy a whistle. It sucks. So you go buy another one. It sucks. So you. . .
Rinse and repeat.
Pretty soon you have a $100 Generation whistle (which might very well suck), or $200 if you count the value of your time and cost of going to shop over and over again.
Life is easier with guitars and fiddles, until you get up into highest regions again.
You have an instrument custom made for several thousand dollars, you decide it sucks for some reason, so you. . .
KFG
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Oh, if you're the right sort of person, at least all the kids in the neighborhood appreciate all the free whistles you hand out, although their parents may not look upon it quite so kindly.
KFG
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Yeah, I've probably given away most of the whistles I've bought. I have a nice Copeland low G (bought it when they were "cheap" - $160), but not a decent high D. Wait, what was the original topic?
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
for a sound recording, this sample of my uncle playing has a burke whistle. my uncle stopped playing whistles because they were out of tune until the burkes came out.
http://audio.cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/k/e/kells-04.mp3
more sound samples can be foundf at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kells
and their official site is http://www.thekells.org
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by daiv
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
My three favorite whistles, in no particular order, are:
1) Burke Pro Session (black-tip) D
2) Paul Busman Kingwood D
3) Sweet "Professional" Birch Laminate D
All three are very different whistles. I like the Burke for sessions because it's loud enough for me to hear it, but not so loud that the fiddler gives me dirty looks. It has a wonderful, warm, very traditional sound.
The Busman is louder than the Burke. Because it's natural hardwood, it has to be babied a bit...oiled occasionally, kept from rapidly fluctuating temperatures, etc. The tone is the most complex of all my whistles...rich and warm, and totally addictive.
The Sweet Pro looks like natural wood but, because it's a laminate, it doesn't have to be babied. Because of its shape, I've gotten used to explaining to people that it's NOT a recorder! It is the loudest of the three...very pure-toned, with a full voice. It never clogs, and even stands up to windy conditions out of doors. It's my Morris whistle.
These are the three things, other than my husband, my kid and my pets, that I would grab if I had to leave a burning building.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by MacTireRua
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"Wait, what was the original topic?"
The "Professional" Dymondwood ( a wood composite material) whistles sold by The Sweetheart Flute Company have a very lovely tone, if you fancy wooden whistles, and the price is very competitive at $135, and the thing is just about as indestructable as an ABS whistle.
Or, if you're tired of snobbish flute players looking down on your "beginner's" instrument, they offer the same thing in African Blackwood with silver rings and a G key for $350, and, as we all know, nothing says "Irish" like wood imported from Africa.
KFG
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Any o' y'uns ever substitute a recorder for whistle? I've diddlied just a bit on my soprano recorder and thought it had interesting possibilities for Irish toons.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Nothing does say Irish like African Blackwood and you mean G# key.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by Unseen122
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
yes, the problem with recorders is that everyone plays those godawful cheap ones! i dont like the way it sits on a tenor, but ITM sits great on alto and soprano. sopranino is ok except for when it goes high.... i've been afraid to try it on garkleind (sp). the problem are the rolls... e roll is fine, f# blips a bit, g is ok if you tap it with an f (which maybe some people might notice as changing the mood of it), and the others are fine. the high b (or e on alto / sopranino) fingered ilke a silver flute 3d octave e (xxo xxo), and i havent even bothered trying to role that.
the thing about the recorder compared to the tin whistle is that it has a full chromatic range, which makes the fingerings more awkward for playing very quickly. it is great for playing music in other keys, but it can be awkward and it doesnt seem to worth it to learn ITM on a recorder seriously unless you: 1.) play the recorder and dont know the whistle (but the whistle isnt hard so suck it up, ^_^) 2.) you play the recorder and whistle already and want to have fun wit hit 3.) you are bored and like learning new instruments.
on the plus side, you can join recorder / early music societies which are loads of fun. but you'll have to know how to play many accidentals, but its worth it.
haha, sorry! didnt mean to kill the theme of the thread.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by daiv
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
". . .and you mean G# key."
I certainly do. Typos happen, particularly when I'm the typist.
"2.) you play the recorder and whistle already and want to have fun wit hit 3.) you are bored and like learning new instruments."
Pretty much sums it up. I play a bit of ITM and Oldtimey music on soprano and alto, and you'll generally find a plastic soprano in my guitar case (an Aulos. Not at all bad really. A much better instrument than, say, my East German Maple Adler. That one's good to take camping. You might need the extra firewood).
But you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The cross fingering is a pain and I generally avoid tunes that require it. Cluck Old Hen is a very nice soprano recorder tune.
So mostly I use it to play baroque music for myself and/or cat.
The cat prefers whistle though.
KFG
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
You should also consider the Cillian O'Briain Improved
Available from http://www.shannaquay.com/
I bought one and really loved the sound - very clean and clear. Then some B**tard stole it from me at Derrygonnelly and I haven't got round to getting another.
Not very loud but a delicious tone.
In my humble opinion it is a steal at Euro 29 [£20] and that includes shipping. In fact I think I'll go on line with them and order one right now!!
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by breandan
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Ordered!!
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by breandan
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I love my O Briain "improved" too, but it's pretty quiet...not a great session whistle (assuming that's what you want it for). Some newer players find them a bit hyper-sensitive, but I love the way you can just think "next octave" and up it goes.
Yes, the "Dymondwood" Sweetheart Professional is the one I have, and I'm thrilled with it. He's got some right now he's selling for about $10 off because there's a slight color mismatch between the head and the body.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by MacTireRua
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
Here's a review I did of the Sweetheart at Chiff & Fipple, if you find such things helpful:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=18615&highlight=sweetheart+professional+review
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by MacTireRua
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
"Not very loud but a delicious tone."
This looks to be exactly what I've been wishing for to just play around the house or out at the park, when I want to be musical, but quiet.
Thanks for the heads up on that.
KFG
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by KFG
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
There are many fine whistles out there. chiffandfipple.com has a lot of reviews, but here's what I'm a fan of -
(sort of cheap) Syn whistles. They come with exchangable bodies in different keys. Nice and loud, good tone, kind of a high air req. so you'll get good lungs.
(middle) PVC Thin Weasel - made by Glenn Schultz in MI. I like the resistance and they're very facile (i.e., they kind of want to be played fast). The best ones have visible plumber's code
(a little more) a Sindt. You'll have to be on a waiting list, but these are fine, fine whistles.
You can hear a lot of clips and chiff and fipple too, that should help you make a decision.
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by reenactor
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
My favourite whistle that I own is my Goldie Overton,it has such a rich sound and you can really lean into it and let rip.....if you so wish!!
# Posted on February 4th 2005 by banjo billy
Re: Getting a new whistle! (yey!) :¬D
I haven't heard anyone mention Chieftain whistles. I played a high D Chieftain a few months ago and I haven't stopped drooling since!!
# Posted on February 7th 2005 by Dave Cunningham