how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
this is an honest query from someome who is just about ready to jack it all in.
god i wish i had learnt to play the box, life would have been sooo much easier, but the older i get the harder it is for me to tolerate bad tuning.
am i a snob?
or just picky?
is it usual for flute players to be so hung up about their tuning or do i need special help?
i mean, after playing for what might be considered as a relatively long time matters dont appear to be improving, in fact if anything they appear to be worsening.
i`ve been told that i`m a good musician, but find it near to impossible to play unless everyone is hitting the same note.
lets face it, playing flute is`nt easy at the best of times, and whilst my friends tell me that they`re very happy with my tuning abilities, i still cant help but check my own tuning if something sounds off.
it couldn`t always be my fault.
so, how do you zone out and play anyway?
any suggestions would be nice, then perhaps i could book a long vacation for my bad tuning imp, i`m getting a sore back from him sitting on my bloody shoulder all the time.
especially when pipers turn up!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
first, bad tuning seems indeed to be a burden for many fluteplayers (believe me, i was there too, once).
worst is when there are several fluteplayers, playing 'together' out of tune. i think best is to tell the offenders to adjust, and, if there is a box-player around, tune to that.
while playing, flutes (and whistles too, i guess) tend to highten pitch (dus to warming up) while fiddles tend to lower pitch. checking tuning while playing is inevitable i guess.
a good fluteplayer can 'lip' her/his instrument in tune while playing, thus adjusting while a set is going on.
i noticed lots of fluteplayers 'tuning' their instrument by 'lipping' it into tune, but once they start playing, they go back to the way they played before, mostly higher pitched.
i tend to play in tune with the fiddle(s) closest to me, or the box, if there is one. our piper plays with the boxplayer alot, so these two seem to be in tune together mostly.
if the bad-tuning is really getting on your nerves, i sugest you talk to the offenders about it.
on the other hand, "folk music has to be a little out of tune" is what goes around here.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I sympathise - being a fiddle player I'm used to my instrument going out of tune due to heat, cold, humidity, new strings etc but I've just recorded a track with our melodeon player and he recorded it in two part using different melodeons. I thought I'd be able to record it as one piece - but his two melodeons are tuned slightly differently and I had to stop to retune to match. With the full band I had problems staying in tune because I couldn't actually hear what I was playing so I changed to a Yamaha EV205 so I had in-ear monitoring.
In sessions I find the biggest problem is staying in tune with whistle players - every whistle seems to be different and I'm never sure whether some players don't realise they're not in tune or just can't do anything about it.
My idea of hell is being stuck with a whistle on one side of me and a melodeon on the other both tuned just far enough apart for me not to know which to go with!! I either stop playing or go with the melodeon as they can't adjust! I suppose absolute hell would be being surrounded by whistles all tuned fractionally different!!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
maybe i`m too nice, but if no-one comments on the tuning or lack there of, i will automatically assume that it`s my fault. i also play regularily with a flute player and have no problems tuning to him, but other flute players give me the pips from time to time, so perhaps what i really need are self assertiveness classes. either that or a back bone!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
i agree tarrentella, a fate worse than death................5 out of tune whistlers, 1 set of badly working pipes,2 good awful bodhrans and a guitarist who thinks that 3 chords per tune should just about cover it.
oh my god i see my problem now!
i just described one of my regular sessions, perhaps i should get out more often?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
That would be hell - only matched by a session I went to where I couldn't get through the door for guitar cases stacked up and my brother in law and I were the only two starting tune sets between a selection of C& W, blues, jazz songs!! Not to mention the shaky egg/spoon player and the most obnoxious accordian player I know. We didn't stay all evening!!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
as well for you that you don`t play in belfast.
the tunes you get requested for include amongst others .......the lonesome boatman, carrickfergus and the titanic song.
place those tunes in the hands of the raggle taggle musicians i mentioned above tarrantella and i think we can all agree, that the titanic song lends a certain special meaning to the progression of that particular session......................
i.e sinking without trace!
out of curiosity, what is the worst session you played in and was the tuning imp conspicuous by his presence?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
The funniest for tuning was a session involving a Northumbrian pipe player who used to go in the pub kitchen for about 20 minutes to tune up. Of course it was really warm in there. The session used to take place in a corner behind the door so as soon as anyone went in or out a draught of cold air came in and he'd have to retune. I think he spent about 2 hours tuning his pipes and about 2 minutes playing them!!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I don't mean to tar people with the same brush but in my experience it's usually flute players who are guilty of dodgy tuning. Whether this is a fault of not tuning using the same embouchure and "power" as during the playing of a tune, or simply tuning sharp in order to be heard I don't know. I have a suspicion that the latter is the case for at least some "fluters" I know.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
conán,
tuning sharp is also a classical way of making the flute-section sound 'brighter' ... i heard ...
and, for what it's worth: it's better to have a (tad) sharp pitched fluter than a flat one ...
most 'other' instruments can at least check their tuning in reference to an open string, which you can't on a flute.
i know that, if i have no reference tone (box, spot-on fidler, ...) i often wander the higher pitches myself.
you really have to learn to 'listen' to play the flute in tune, or you need an absolute hearing.
about the 'power and the embouchure' : a lot of the fluter's "high-pitch-syndrome" originates there, i guess.
the 'pourpously-high-pitchers' are not really that much of a problem, considering they know what they are doing, so i suspect they CAN play in tune if they want to (or if they're asked to).
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I've had my out of tune moments - the worst one still makes me cringe now. Before I had in-ear monitoring I couldn't hear a lot of what I played when standing betwen the drum kit and the melodeon. I have an electronic tuner linked in but the battery in it died and instead of giving me a warning light, it just gave false readings - and I was a semitone out with the melodeon. Luckily I have to check my tuning with the melodeon through a gig as the electronic tuner doesn't allow for the subtleties of tuning to a melodeon!! But I would hate to hear a recording of that particular part of the gig!!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Hehehe the purposely high-pitched players usually don't want to play in tune - asking them to tune doesn't always work (anyone remember the Seamus Tansey incident recently).
It does seem to be a problem for the flute that you can only really hear if it's tuned correctly during a tune. I've often seen flute players re-tune after the first set in a session. I have heard of that trick that (usually) classical players use - tuning a teeny bit sharp to make the tone brighter. I think it's one of my only session bugbears, aggravated by the fact that I used to go to a sesh where the fluter tuned sharp on purpose. I used to dream of chucking it out an open window or into the fire.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I get the feeling that the session environment sometimes has too many distractions that can spoil the music, in particlar the attention and concentration required to tune properly. All other conditions being equal, there's the room temperature, which obviously affects flute tuning - you may have been in tune at home when you played along with your favourite CD (the tune on which happened to be in concert pitch D), but step into the session pub and that's all changed.
You've then got the problem of the noise of the pub, people either side of you talking - add to that the fact that a sounded note on the flute will usually sound sharper to the player than it really is (being so close to the ear - Ostrichfeathers, speak up on this please), and you've got tuning problems galore. When the music gets going and the players / instruments settle down, then things usually get better, but it's not always easy.
Take away the session environment, and things seem to change. I'm only say this because of the result of a single tune virtual session (see 'Virtual Session...', the other thread). On this, 3 people, ie myself and two other flute players from this site, who have never played together before, played along with my pre-recorded fiddle track, and there was no tuning problem at all. Maybe there's something about the session environment sometimes? Who knows. My example might just be a coincidence. Have a listen to item 3 at
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
It may not just be you're tuning, but you're intonation that is out - you can tune your A to spot on 440, but the rest of the notes may be out. I am not a flute player, but I believe it is possible to 'blow' notes into tune to some extent. If it is beyond that, it might be worth taking your flute to a maker or repairer to have it adjusted, or at least for an expert opinion.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
You'd think that in a big session, small variations in tuning would smooth themselves out, but sometimes they don't. Maybe there is also the fact that sometimes there are other things going on (rhythmic inconsistencies, bad combinations of instruments etc) and tuning is the one thing you automatically turn to to straighten things out. In common with a lot of flute players I tend to assume it's me if things sound wrong. Quite often it's not, but I still seem to spend half the evening twiddling with my tuning slide.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Bear in mind - certain instruments are tuned differently, ie: different scales as well. The pipes are tuned to just intonation in order to play against the drones, so some notes might sound just a touch sharp, while others are tuned noteably flat when compared to any of the fancy little electric black boxes that so many are attached to in sessions. Also, boxes are hand tuned as well, and can be tuned bright, dark, wet, dry, just or equal etc. You may be playing against a tuning prefferred by the box's owner but which might be slightly off compared to what everyone else is "used" to.
I find the biggest problem isn't so much the ability to tune one instrument to another, but rather that what most of us hear in recordings is the sleek , polished and perfected tuning of many current recordings. There's a lot to be said for the power of modern mixing and mastering software. But it rarely reflects the reality of playing live together with multiple acoustic instruments. Some variation is inevitable. The questions then become: How adaptable is everyone going to be when playing, and what's your level of tolerance?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
"am i a snob?
or just picky?"
It's all a matter of definition anyway, Rea. ;) One person's snobbery is another's picky is another's basic standards, etc.
My idea of hell is one of those giant free-for-alls of over 20 players where one side can't hear what the other side of the room is doing. I once played half a tune through before me and the guy next to me realized that one end of the table was playing a different tune from the other side. Yow.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
oh dear, now there`s someone i havent heard of in a while!
hows it going conan? i suppose you don`t remember your ole` mate wreckin` rea with the red hair? by the way how`s the accordian playing going and can we expect a visit any time soon in belfast?
alternatively having played with you often in the past, not all flute players are guilty of crimes against tuning.
was it my comment about bodhran players that set you off?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I finally learned to play the flute in tune with other muscian's by experimenting with embouchure and lipping changes adjusting on the fly. It takes a bit of practice. The rub is that you can only learn to do that by playing with others. The Catch-22 is that it takes a while, so you will end up playing out of tune! Using the tuning slide to tune to someone else only gets you approximately in tune.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I believe that flute players play sharp so that they can hear themselves over whoever else is playing nearby. Or maybe we're just cranks.
This has been a problem for me over the years too. I don't know if I've got it completely sorted, but here's what I've figured out to correct it:
Get a tuner, and learn to a) play each note in tune as much as possible in both octaves, and b) tune to some compromise note (probably A), so that you can accurately tune the flute to its best at the start or when you re-tune. If you can't do either a or b, skip to the last paragraph in this blurb.
Learn to listen to tuning. Learn to play flatter than you'd like. Play with a Highland piper for a while - the good ones are obsessive (or anal) tuners of the highest (or lowest) order.
Learn to take tuning criticism for what it's worth. Most times, people really are complaining about the tuning and not your playing, and some nights your ear needs help.
Blame your instrument! There are flutes that simply can't be played in tune by mortals, and you want to fix or replace them while people still want to play with you. Life is too short.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Gzeg, playing with the tuner is fine if you're trying to get to be playing with better intonation against yourself. The problem is that when playing with others, there's no guarantee that everyone's playing to A=440. If the pipes are a tad sharp or flat, or if it's cold and dry out and fiddles, zouks etc. are going flatter or sharper, being "programmed" by playing against a tuner will put you back to square one. Better to play along with recordings, or with one or two people at home and get used to adjusting accordingly. The other thing, at least for fluters, after playing a while and one gets dry or the embouchure gets tired, you have to learn how to adjust things to still be in tune, best to do this with your technique, rather than trying to use the slide. Playing to the tuner will also not help with this. Also, with flutes, tuners are not always terribly good at measuring pitch consistently. I've had times when overall I'm playing in tune, yet the tuner has difficulties due to resonance or whatever and will waver back and forth even though the notes are spot on with a fixed pitch instrument.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Other than the pipes, flutes are probably the hardest instrument to play in tune with others. Although even boxes or concertinas can be played with dodgy tuning. I've been around a 'tina player who's consistantly flat. Variable rhythm too eek. Personally, I'd rather hear someone a little out of tune but keep the rhythm and tempo consistant.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
A world-famous concert violinist used to tune up in the green room, while waiting to go on, to the general pitch of the orchestra in the hall as it was playing an overture or whatever. He realised that if he tuned to a tuning fork or pitch pipe in the green room that might not be quite the same as the pitch of the orchestra, which had adjusted to the environment of the hall. He also deliberately tuned his (gut) strings a shade sharp, because he knew from experience that they would tend to go slightly flat within a few minutes. Applying this reasoning to a session, if you come to the session when it is already under way, wouldn’t it be better to tune to the general sound of the session rather than relying on a tuning device?
If you can’t really hear yourself when playing in a session that probably means one of two things – you’re either playing too quietly (usually rectifiable), or you’re actually playing in tune with, and at the same speed and rhythm, as everyone else. Isn’t that one of the main objectives of playing with other musicians in a session? If you can’t hear others or the general sound of the session properly, then, conversely, that means you’re probably playing too loud. I’m assuming, of course, that there isn’t a penetrating banjo or pipes playing.
Trevor
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Please tell me which is more welcome in the session, a terribly bad player who is just good at tuning, or a modestly good player who is slightly out of tune?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
a modestly good player, ofcourse! s/he can be put in tune!
i can't believe a terribly bad player is able to play 'in tune'.
i have a problem with the overall consensus that it's mostly the flutes, playing out of tune and that it's always the flutes adjusting to others! okay, good players are able to adjust on the fly, but only that much!
okay, everybody has the do the best s/he can to play in tune, but stop blaming it always on the flutes (sorry for the rant).
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Wreckin' rea I knew who you were from your description - I was just waiting for you to notice! Actually the flute rant was more than a little tongue in cheek, just to grab your attention. And you shouldn't speak ill of bodhrán players, especially (or is that despite?) being related to one. So I hope you're keeping well. 'Bout time you popped up on this board. I'll be back in Belfast "soon", i.e. within the next month or two. How about you coming over to stay with us some time??
Anyway, keep playing up a storm on the oul' lump of firewood. Is it one of Sam's?
Cxx
Maarten, now you know how bodhrán players feel! :¬)
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
conán,
that's why i want to start a flute-bodhran duo!
i'll keep the pace and rithme, if the bodhran is tunable ...
concertpitch!
and, sadly, it IS mostly the flutes/whistles playing out of tune at our sessions, just because there is so many of them!
and we have 2 great goatwackers in our midst at the sessions (good on you, hans and pauwke!).
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
The name Pauwke rings a bell; has he/she person ever been to Ennis before?
Maarten, if you can get your hands on any of Harry Bradley's recordings they're well worth a listen. The tracks he does with Séamus O'Kane are great. Likewise Niall Keegan and his wife - it's an excellent combination.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Why can't flute players do what banjo players do - tune the strings then either weld the machine heads up or saw the end of the banjo off to keep it in tune?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
as other people have said, buy a tuner!
tune every single note, PERFECTLY on your flute, every single day. dont let it waver at all, dont go up a note until the one before it is 100% perfect. this might take you a while at first. tune it with your lips, your mouth, your jaw, and your throat. i dont bother tuning my a's ever, because they're always in tune, i just make sure i am in tune, i ignore the flute, because after so many years you just know where to put it. if you cant get your a in tune with your lips, you might want to tune it, but you should never ever ever ever stop thinking about tuning, even after you've tuned.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Then what do you do when you paly with a piper who's sharp? Or a fiddle that's gone flat? That's the problem with relying on tuners, you get "programmed" and can't adjust your intonation with your embouchure. When I first started playing flute, I did that and it doesn't work if you play with others. The only way to get it is to use your ear and lip, blow or adjust accordingly. It's hard with a lot of musicians, so best to practice with just one other person. A fiddle would be especially good. Good duet partner, plus stringed instruments can be the hardest to play in tune with.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Warning! Long-winded diatribe at 4 o'clock...
meemtp, I know what you mean, but I wasn't suggesting that anyone become a slave to A=440. 440 is just a number - it's not a universal constant, and I don't buy the idea that you can be "programmed" to one pitch. I myself have been de-programmed many times.
If your tuner doesn't hear the flute reliably, get a better one (I think mine is a $40 Korg digital something or other - can't say for sure because the kids have taken it to use as a hammer. It used to work very well.)
On the other hand, one can develop a clear sense of the overall tuning of a flute, ie. where it's in tune and where it needs correction, on a note by note basis. A tuner is a good tool for learning this - better than learning by listening to another instrument, because it tells you whether you're flat or sharp, and how much. For example, my flute has a fairly sharp A, a not so sharp a, a somewhat sharp F#, etc.
The other thing you need to be able to do is to tune reliably to some standard, whether a tuner's A=440, or your session's A=whatever. "Tune reliably" means pick up the flute, blow a note, move the tuning slide, and be able to start playing in tune enough that you're not annoying anyone until you've warmed up enough to do more tuning. Or until you've had your first pint. In order to do this, like daiv says you need to know how to blow an A that's at least in tune with the flute. If you can blow the flute reasonably in tune, then you can blow it at 440 or 438 or 444 or whatever.
There are some other factors. Like you say, some people can end up quite sharp or flat. I will try to tune with them up to a point, but beyond that they're on they're own. They share some responsibility to aim for the locally accepted standard, which is somewhere around A=440, plus or minus (k*1.023 + z + 23)/r (where k is the general physical attractiveness of the player who claims you're out of tune, [if Ms. Brown is not actually in the room], z is the instrument factor [bodhran = 1, pipes =14, accordion="Bzzzt! Thanks for playing."], and r is the number of players divided by the number of pints consumed). Coincidentally, most of the people at our session make a point of tuning to A=440. Mostly because it's there.
Tuning is a bunch of compromises, and learning a method to organize all the variables, especially if it helps you improve your ear over time, will make life a lot easier.
Sorry to be contrary (I am a crank, after all), but relying on fiddle players is not always a good idea. If they're less than confident it's too easy to convince them that YOUR flute-biased intonation is correct, and I've met one or two with, ummm, idiosyncratic approaches to tuning.
And while I'm being a crank, maybe your tuning is not the problem? General session tuning being what it is, maybe somebody near you needs to pull their socks up?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
daiv,
" tune every single note, PERFECTLY ... " "... until the one before it is 100% perfect "
can you define 'perfect'? is that mathematically perfect? or harmonic? tempered? relative?
besides flute, i also play (flemish) bagpipes. i can tell you, if i tune the chanter 'perfectly' to the tuner, i'd better switch off the drones! so, i tune the chanter to the drones!.
same with flute: i propose this: tune your G (not A, since it's sharp on most flutes) to correct pitch, and then get some drone-device (the indien drone-box is perfect for this) and set it to the key of D, add 5th and/or 3rd. play your flute (or any other instrument!) to this drone. then change the drone pitch to E (or G or A or wathever), and play samething to that (be aware: play a D-tune to the D-drone, an A-tune to the A-drone).
you'll notice that you'll have to correct different notes for the different keys!
" ... i dont bother tuning my a's ever, because they're always in tune ... "
you mean you have perfect hearing? or you mean always in 440? or you always play with the same lot?
" ... you should never ever ever ever stop thinking about tuning, even after you've tuned ... "
NO! do stop THINKING about tuning! once you're in tune, just play, and FEEL the resonance!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I suppose it depends whether you're using a Pythagorean scale, a well-tempered scale, or an equal-tempered scale - I've only just begun to realise that scales are not made up of fixed intervals decreed as absolute at the dawn of time. Traditional music as played in the 19th century would not have used equal-tempered scales like you get on a modern piano and the key would have been more critical. Different instruments would not necessarily be hitting the same F sharps or G flats - in fact to a fiddler they can be slightly different notes - and all the other notes are open to interpretation, especially where I'm concerned. Perhaps we should all just agree to play Rolf Harris stylophones - no tuning needed!
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Thanks for all the advice guy`s, but i guess i`ll just tune to conan`s bodhran, it`ll be easier.
I`m not using any of the sam flutes at the minute, just the goodlad and willis one.
hey!
Maybe it IS the flute and not me.
Of course that could be wishful thinking.
By the way Con, will you ask our mate LD to get in touch with me?
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
"I've only just begun to realise that scales are not made up of fixed intervals decreed as absolute at the dawn of time. "
Ah, *now* you're ready to start fiddling.
"Different instruments would not necessarily be hitting the same F sharps or G flats. . ."
And don't neglect your E sharp.
"Perhaps we should all just agree to play Rolf Harris stylophones - no tuning needed!"
Well, there's always Theremin if you want somthing in a serious instrument. It might be worth it just to see the reaction when you show up at a session with one.
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
meempt - you tune to them. thats what not stopping tuning ever means. that means adjust to your instrument, adjust to who you're playing with. flutes can change pitch easier than most instruments. what you can do with a tuner is teach yourself to always be aware of pitch, on every note. teaching you to listen to yourself teaches you how to listen to others. when i play with people sometimes there instruments go out of tune and i just go with them, because i am learning how to tune every note, not just one note.
if you have a piper friend who will let you slowly tune every note on the flute to his pipes every day then by all means do that.
how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
this is an honest query from someome who is just about ready to jack it all in.
god i wish i had learnt to play the box, life would have been sooo much easier, but the older i get the harder it is for me to tolerate bad tuning.
am i a snob?
or just picky?
is it usual for flute players to be so hung up about their tuning or do i need special help?
i mean, after playing for what might be considered as a relatively long time matters dont appear to be improving, in fact if anything they appear to be worsening.
i`ve been told that i`m a good musician, but find it near to impossible to play unless everyone is hitting the same note.
lets face it, playing flute is`nt easy at the best of times, and whilst my friends tell me that they`re very happy with my tuning abilities, i still cant help but check my own tuning if something sounds off.
it couldn`t always be my fault.
so, how do you zone out and play anyway?
any suggestions would be nice, then perhaps i could book a long vacation for my bad tuning imp, i`m getting a sore back from him sitting on my bloody shoulder all the time.
especially when pipers turn up!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
first, bad tuning seems indeed to be a burden for many fluteplayers (believe me, i was there too, once).
worst is when there are several fluteplayers, playing 'together' out of tune. i think best is to tell the offenders to adjust, and, if there is a box-player around, tune to that.
while playing, flutes (and whistles too, i guess) tend to highten pitch (dus to warming up) while fiddles tend to lower pitch. checking tuning while playing is inevitable i guess.
a good fluteplayer can 'lip' her/his instrument in tune while playing, thus adjusting while a set is going on.
i noticed lots of fluteplayers 'tuning' their instrument by 'lipping' it into tune, but once they start playing, they go back to the way they played before, mostly higher pitched.
i tend to play in tune with the fiddle(s) closest to me, or the box, if there is one. our piper plays with the boxplayer alot, so these two seem to be in tune together mostly.
if the bad-tuning is really getting on your nerves, i sugest you talk to the offenders about it.
on the other hand, "folk music has to be a little out of tune" is what goes around here.
mm
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I sympathise - being a fiddle player I'm used to my instrument going out of tune due to heat, cold, humidity, new strings etc but I've just recorded a track with our melodeon player and he recorded it in two part using different melodeons. I thought I'd be able to record it as one piece - but his two melodeons are tuned slightly differently and I had to stop to retune to match. With the full band I had problems staying in tune because I couldn't actually hear what I was playing so I changed to a Yamaha EV205 so I had in-ear monitoring.
In sessions I find the biggest problem is staying in tune with whistle players - every whistle seems to be different and I'm never sure whether some players don't realise they're not in tune or just can't do anything about it.
My idea of hell is being stuck with a whistle on one side of me and a melodeon on the other both tuned just far enough apart for me not to know which to go with!! I either stop playing or go with the melodeon as they can't adjust! I suppose absolute hell would be being surrounded by whistles all tuned fractionally different!!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
maybe i`m too nice, but if no-one comments on the tuning or lack there of, i will automatically assume that it`s my fault. i also play regularily with a flute player and have no problems tuning to him, but other flute players give me the pips from time to time, so perhaps what i really need are self assertiveness classes. either that or a back bone!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
i agree tarrentella, a fate worse than death................5 out of tune whistlers, 1 set of badly working pipes,2 good awful bodhrans and a guitarist who thinks that 3 chords per tune should just about cover it.
oh my god i see my problem now!
i just described one of my regular sessions, perhaps i should get out more often?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
That would be hell - only matched by a session I went to where I couldn't get through the door for guitar cases stacked up and my brother in law and I were the only two starting tune sets between a selection of C& W, blues, jazz songs!! Not to mention the shaky egg/spoon player and the most obnoxious accordian player I know. We didn't stay all evening!!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
as well for you that you don`t play in belfast.
the tunes you get requested for include amongst others .......the lonesome boatman, carrickfergus and the titanic song.
place those tunes in the hands of the raggle taggle musicians i mentioned above tarrantella and i think we can all agree, that the titanic song lends a certain special meaning to the progression of that particular session......................
i.e sinking without trace!
out of curiosity, what is the worst session you played in and was the tuning imp conspicuous by his presence?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
The funniest for tuning was a session involving a Northumbrian pipe player who used to go in the pub kitchen for about 20 minutes to tune up. Of course it was really warm in there. The session used to take place in a corner behind the door so as soon as anyone went in or out a draught of cold air came in and he'd have to retune. I think he spent about 2 hours tuning his pipes and about 2 minutes playing them!!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
ok you win!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I don't mean to tar people with the same brush but in my experience it's usually flute players who are guilty of dodgy tuning. Whether this is a fault of not tuning using the same embouchure and "power" as during the playing of a tune, or simply tuning sharp in order to be heard I don't know. I have a suspicion that the latter is the case for at least some "fluters" I know.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I don't know why non-fluters are always so prejudiced against creative intonation. Such narrow-mindedness. Tut, tut.
%7P
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Q
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Oh well one thing I'll say in their defence is that they don't sound as awful as an out of tune fiddle.
Cue pelters
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
conán,
tuning sharp is also a classical way of making the flute-section sound 'brighter' ... i heard ...
and, for what it's worth: it's better to have a (tad) sharp pitched fluter than a flat one ...
most 'other' instruments can at least check their tuning in reference to an open string, which you can't on a flute.
i know that, if i have no reference tone (box, spot-on fidler, ...) i often wander the higher pitches myself.
you really have to learn to 'listen' to play the flute in tune, or you need an absolute hearing.
about the 'power and the embouchure' : a lot of the fluter's "high-pitch-syndrome" originates there, i guess.
the 'pourpously-high-pitchers' are not really that much of a problem, considering they know what they are doing, so i suspect they CAN play in tune if they want to (or if they're asked to).
mm
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I've had my out of tune moments - the worst one still makes me cringe now. Before I had in-ear monitoring I couldn't hear a lot of what I played when standing betwen the drum kit and the melodeon. I have an electronic tuner linked in but the battery in it died and instead of giving me a warning light, it just gave false readings - and I was a semitone out with the melodeon. Luckily I have to check my tuning with the melodeon through a gig as the electronic tuner doesn't allow for the subtleties of tuning to a melodeon!! But I would hate to hear a recording of that particular part of the gig!!
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Tarrantella
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Hehehe the purposely high-pitched players usually don't want to play in tune - asking them to tune doesn't always work (anyone remember the Seamus Tansey incident recently).
It does seem to be a problem for the flute that you can only really hear if it's tuned correctly during a tune. I've often seen flute players re-tune after the first set in a session. I have heard of that trick that (usually) classical players use - tuning a teeny bit sharp to make the tone brighter. I think it's one of my only session bugbears, aggravated by the fact that I used to go to a sesh where the fluter tuned sharp on purpose. I used to dream of chucking it out an open window or into the fire.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
conán, mind filling us (me) in on the seamus tansey incident?
did i miss anything?
mm
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Check this out MM...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4750/comments#comment99326
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by BegF
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I get the feeling that the session environment sometimes has too many distractions that can spoil the music, in particlar the attention and concentration required to tune properly. All other conditions being equal, there's the room temperature, which obviously affects flute tuning - you may have been in tune at home when you played along with your favourite CD (the tune on which happened to be in concert pitch D), but step into the session pub and that's all changed.
You've then got the problem of the noise of the pub, people either side of you talking - add to that the fact that a sounded note on the flute will usually sound sharper to the player than it really is (being so close to the ear - Ostrichfeathers, speak up on this please), and you've got tuning problems galore. When the music gets going and the players / instruments settle down, then things usually get better, but it's not always easy.
Take away the session environment, and things seem to change. I'm only say this because of the result of a single tune virtual session (see 'Virtual Session...', the other thread). On this, 3 people, ie myself and two other flute players from this site, who have never played together before, played along with my pre-recorded fiddle track, and there was no tuning problem at all. Maybe there's something about the session environment sometimes? Who knows. My example might just be a coincidence. Have a listen to item 3 at
http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/virtualsession/
Jim
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
It may not just be you're tuning, but you're intonation that is out - you can tune your A to spot on 440, but the rest of the notes may be out. I am not a flute player, but I believe it is possible to 'blow' notes into tune to some extent. If it is beyond that, it might be worth taking your flute to a maker or repairer to have it adjusted, or at least for an expert opinion.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by ragaman
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
So, Wreckin' Rea can't possibly do flute duet with Seamus Tansey.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by slainte
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
You'd think that in a big session, small variations in tuning would smooth themselves out, but sometimes they don't. Maybe there is also the fact that sometimes there are other things going on (rhythmic inconsistencies, bad combinations of instruments etc) and tuning is the one thing you automatically turn to to straighten things out. In common with a lot of flute players I tend to assume it's me if things sound wrong. Quite often it's not, but I still seem to spend half the evening twiddling with my tuning slide.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Ottery
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Bear in mind - certain instruments are tuned differently, ie: different scales as well. The pipes are tuned to just intonation in order to play against the drones, so some notes might sound just a touch sharp, while others are tuned noteably flat when compared to any of the fancy little electric black boxes that so many are attached to in sessions. Also, boxes are hand tuned as well, and can be tuned bright, dark, wet, dry, just or equal etc. You may be playing against a tuning prefferred by the box's owner but which might be slightly off compared to what everyone else is "used" to.
I find the biggest problem isn't so much the ability to tune one instrument to another, but rather that what most of us hear in recordings is the sleek , polished and perfected tuning of many current recordings. There's a lot to be said for the power of modern mixing and mastering software. But it rarely reflects the reality of playing live together with multiple acoustic instruments. Some variation is inevitable. The questions then become: How adaptable is everyone going to be when playing, and what's your level of tolerance?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by uilleann_craic
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Well, listening to the virtual session clip, I think I definitely should have tuned a bit brighter so I could have heard myself...
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Ottery
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
What ...you mean like this?
http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/virtualsession/ottery%20loud%20mcmahonsreel104bpm.mp3
Jim
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
"am i a snob?
or just picky?"
It's all a matter of definition anyway, Rea. ;) One person's snobbery is another's picky is another's basic standards, etc.
My idea of hell is one of those giant free-for-alls of over 20 players where one side can't hear what the other side of the room is doing. I once played half a tune through before me and the guy next to me realized that one end of the table was playing a different tune from the other side. Yow.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Eeeek!
No, Jim, I was joking!
Turn me down at once,
sorry!
Mark
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Ottery
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
OK Ottery, the above link has gone the above link has gone! You're back to normal!
Zina, what instrument does the one end of the table play? Has it been playing long? Is it different to the other end?
OK Vix, you're in the tune now. Audio placement from left to right is Q, Jim, Ottery, Vix
http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/virtualsession/
Jim
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
What's tuning?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I think they mean tuna.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by BegF
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
ooops...sorry, wrong thread
Jim
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
oh dear, now there`s someone i havent heard of in a while!
hows it going conan? i suppose you don`t remember your ole` mate wreckin` rea with the red hair? by the way how`s the accordian playing going and can we expect a visit any time soon in belfast?
alternatively having played with you often in the past, not all flute players are guilty of crimes against tuning.
was it my comment about bodhran players that set you off?
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I finally learned to play the flute in tune with other muscian's by experimenting with embouchure and lipping changes adjusting on the fly. It takes a bit of practice. The rub is that you can only learn to do that by playing with others. The Catch-22 is that it takes a while, so you will end up playing out of tune! Using the tuning slide to tune to someone else only gets you approximately in tune.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by meemtp
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
We're supposed to tune?
KFG
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Stop being silly and buy a tuner.
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I told him we already got one.
KFG
# Posted on January 31st 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I believe that flute players play sharp so that they can hear themselves over whoever else is playing nearby. Or maybe we're just cranks.
This has been a problem for me over the years too. I don't know if I've got it completely sorted, but here's what I've figured out to correct it:
Get a tuner, and learn to a) play each note in tune as much as possible in both octaves, and b) tune to some compromise note (probably A), so that you can accurately tune the flute to its best at the start or when you re-tune. If you can't do either a or b, skip to the last paragraph in this blurb.
Learn to listen to tuning. Learn to play flatter than you'd like. Play with a Highland piper for a while - the good ones are obsessive (or anal) tuners of the highest (or lowest) order.
Learn to take tuning criticism for what it's worth. Most times, people really are complaining about the tuning and not your playing, and some nights your ear needs help.
Blame your instrument! There are flutes that simply can't be played in tune by mortals, and you want to fix or replace them while people still want to play with you. Life is too short.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Gzeg
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Oh, I vote for cranks, because I love it when people start yelling and throwing things! ;)
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
So you play a lot of chicken wire clubs, do you? : )
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Heh. Not if I can help it,.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Gzeg, playing with the tuner is fine if you're trying to get to be playing with better intonation against yourself. The problem is that when playing with others, there's no guarantee that everyone's playing to A=440. If the pipes are a tad sharp or flat, or if it's cold and dry out and fiddles, zouks etc. are going flatter or sharper, being "programmed" by playing against a tuner will put you back to square one. Better to play along with recordings, or with one or two people at home and get used to adjusting accordingly. The other thing, at least for fluters, after playing a while and one gets dry or the embouchure gets tired, you have to learn how to adjust things to still be in tune, best to do this with your technique, rather than trying to use the slide. Playing to the tuner will also not help with this. Also, with flutes, tuners are not always terribly good at measuring pitch consistently. I've had times when overall I'm playing in tune, yet the tuner has difficulties due to resonance or whatever and will waver back and forth even though the notes are spot on with a fixed pitch instrument.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by meemtp
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Other than the pipes, flutes are probably the hardest instrument to play in tune with others. Although even boxes or concertinas can be played with dodgy tuning. I've been around a 'tina player who's consistantly flat. Variable rhythm too eek. Personally, I'd rather hear someone a little out of tune but keep the rhythm and tempo consistant.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by meemtp
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
A world-famous concert violinist used to tune up in the green room, while waiting to go on, to the general pitch of the orchestra in the hall as it was playing an overture or whatever. He realised that if he tuned to a tuning fork or pitch pipe in the green room that might not be quite the same as the pitch of the orchestra, which had adjusted to the environment of the hall. He also deliberately tuned his (gut) strings a shade sharp, because he knew from experience that they would tend to go slightly flat within a few minutes. Applying this reasoning to a session, if you come to the session when it is already under way, wouldn’t it be better to tune to the general sound of the session rather than relying on a tuning device?
If you can’t really hear yourself when playing in a session that probably means one of two things – you’re either playing too quietly (usually rectifiable), or you’re actually playing in tune with, and at the same speed and rhythm, as everyone else. Isn’t that one of the main objectives of playing with other musicians in a session? If you can’t hear others or the general sound of the session properly, then, conversely, that means you’re probably playing too loud. I’m assuming, of course, that there isn’t a penetrating banjo or pipes playing.
Trevor
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by lazyhound
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Please tell me which is more welcome in the session, a terribly bad player who is just good at tuning, or a modestly good player who is slightly out of tune?
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by slainte
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Depends. Which one's the better "hang"? ;)
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
a modestly good player, ofcourse! s/he can be put in tune!
i can't believe a terribly bad player is able to play 'in tune'.
i have a problem with the overall consensus that it's mostly the flutes, playing out of tune and that it's always the flutes adjusting to others! okay, good players are able to adjust on the fly, but only that much!
okay, everybody has the do the best s/he can to play in tune, but stop blaming it always on the flutes (sorry for the rant).
mm
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Wreckin' rea I knew who you were from your description - I was just waiting for you to notice! Actually the flute rant was more than a little tongue in cheek, just to grab your attention. And you shouldn't speak ill of bodhrán players, especially (or is that despite?) being related to one. So I hope you're keeping well. 'Bout time you popped up on this board. I'll be back in Belfast "soon", i.e. within the next month or two. How about you coming over to stay with us some time??
Anyway, keep playing up a storm on the oul' lump of firewood. Is it one of Sam's?
Cxx
Maarten, now you know how bodhrán players feel! :¬)
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
conán,
that's why i want to start a flute-bodhran duo!
i'll keep the pace and rithme, if the bodhran is tunable ...
concertpitch!
and, sadly, it IS mostly the flutes/whistles playing out of tune at our sessions, just because there is so many of them!
and we have 2 great goatwackers in our midst at the sessions (good on you, hans and pauwke!).
mm
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
The name Pauwke rings a bell; has he/she person ever been to Ennis before?
Maarten, if you can get your hands on any of Harry Bradley's recordings they're well worth a listen. The tracks he does with Séamus O'Kane are great. Likewise Niall Keegan and his wife - it's an excellent combination.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
pauwke = he-person.
i don't think he's been to ennis before,
he's lurking on this site though (where are you ... ?)
jean-michel veillon does some tracks with JJ kelly (er pasker-cd)
i also think the two instruments are complementary. i just love the combination!
mm
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
that's me... the fluteplayer and whistle who's out of tune... conán... isn't it mm
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by lieve
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Why can't flute players do what banjo players do - tune the strings then either weld the machine heads up or saw the end of the banjo off to keep it in tune?
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by geoffwright
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
That's a great idea, Geoff! From now on, whenever my flute is out of tune, I saw off the end of a banjo. Wicked!
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Q
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
*shall saw off* is of course meant what I to say did.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Q
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
lieve, actually, it's not! your whistle IS in tune.
i was refering to the fluteplayer at my right at last nights session! you-know-who.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
OMG! Voldemort plays the flute in MM & Lieve's session!
I wonder if he plays an Ollivander keyless.
(okay okay, I'll stop. geezabreak... so I had an extra 2 cups of freshly ground coffee this afternoon. so what?)
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Q
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
well Q, maybe he looks that way
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by lieve
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
just to confirm I have never been to Ennis before.....
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by pauwke
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
welcome out of lurkdom, pauwke ...
mm
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
". . .now you know how bodhrán players feel! :¬)"
What do you call a person who likes to hang out with ITM musicians?
A bodhran player.
How do you know it's a bodhran player knocking on your door?
The knocking speeds up, then slows down, then speeds up again.
". . .saw the end of the banjo off to keep it in tune"
What's the difference between a banjo and an onion?
*Nobody* cries when you cut up a banjo.
If you take all the banjo players at a festival and put them together in one room, what do you get?
A full set of teeth.
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
If you throw a banjo and a bodhran out a third story window, which one lands first?
Who cares?
Yeah, yeah....
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Hey, look, maybe that Japanese guy who just yesterday found out that the war is over hasn't heard any of these yet.
I mean the war with Kublai Khan. I don't *think* the jokes are that old, on the other hand:
How many samisen players does it take to light a hibachi?
KFG
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Feed your imp some plectrums.
Answer to the banjo and bodhran out the window joke. Its the psycho with the pen knife that hits bottom first.
# Posted on February 1st 2005 by CeolCairdeas
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
as other people have said, buy a tuner!
tune every single note, PERFECTLY on your flute, every single day. dont let it waver at all, dont go up a note until the one before it is 100% perfect. this might take you a while at first. tune it with your lips, your mouth, your jaw, and your throat. i dont bother tuning my a's ever, because they're always in tune, i just make sure i am in tune, i ignore the flute, because after so many years you just know where to put it. if you cant get your a in tune with your lips, you might want to tune it, but you should never ever ever ever stop thinking about tuning, even after you've tuned.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by daiv
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Then what do you do when you paly with a piper who's sharp? Or a fiddle that's gone flat? That's the problem with relying on tuners, you get "programmed" and can't adjust your intonation with your embouchure. When I first started playing flute, I did that and it doesn't work if you play with others. The only way to get it is to use your ear and lip, blow or adjust accordingly. It's hard with a lot of musicians, so best to practice with just one other person. A fiddle would be especially good. Good duet partner, plus stringed instruments can be the hardest to play in tune with.
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by meemtp
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Warning! Long-winded diatribe at 4 o'clock...
meemtp, I know what you mean, but I wasn't suggesting that anyone become a slave to A=440. 440 is just a number - it's not a universal constant, and I don't buy the idea that you can be "programmed" to one pitch. I myself have been de-programmed many times.
If your tuner doesn't hear the flute reliably, get a better one (I think mine is a $40 Korg digital something or other - can't say for sure because the kids have taken it to use as a hammer. It used to work very well.)
On the other hand, one can develop a clear sense of the overall tuning of a flute, ie. where it's in tune and where it needs correction, on a note by note basis. A tuner is a good tool for learning this - better than learning by listening to another instrument, because it tells you whether you're flat or sharp, and how much. For example, my flute has a fairly sharp A, a not so sharp a, a somewhat sharp F#, etc.
The other thing you need to be able to do is to tune reliably to some standard, whether a tuner's A=440, or your session's A=whatever. "Tune reliably" means pick up the flute, blow a note, move the tuning slide, and be able to start playing in tune enough that you're not annoying anyone until you've warmed up enough to do more tuning. Or until you've had your first pint. In order to do this, like daiv says you need to know how to blow an A that's at least in tune with the flute. If you can blow the flute reasonably in tune, then you can blow it at 440 or 438 or 444 or whatever.
There are some other factors. Like you say, some people can end up quite sharp or flat. I will try to tune with them up to a point, but beyond that they're on they're own. They share some responsibility to aim for the locally accepted standard, which is somewhere around A=440, plus or minus (k*1.023 + z + 23)/r (where k is the general physical attractiveness of the player who claims you're out of tune, [if Ms. Brown is not actually in the room], z is the instrument factor [bodhran = 1, pipes =14, accordion="Bzzzt! Thanks for playing."], and r is the number of players divided by the number of pints consumed). Coincidentally, most of the people at our session make a point of tuning to A=440. Mostly because it's there.
Tuning is a bunch of compromises, and learning a method to organize all the variables, especially if it helps you improve your ear over time, will make life a lot easier.
Sorry to be contrary (I am a crank, after all), but relying on fiddle players is not always a good idea. If they're less than confident it's too easy to convince them that YOUR flute-biased intonation is correct, and I've met one or two with, ummm, idiosyncratic approaches to tuning.
And while I'm being a crank, maybe your tuning is not the problem? General session tuning being what it is, maybe somebody near you needs to pull their socks up?
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by Gzeg
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
daiv,
" tune every single note, PERFECTLY ... " "... until the one before it is 100% perfect "
can you define 'perfect'? is that mathematically perfect? or harmonic? tempered? relative?
besides flute, i also play (flemish) bagpipes. i can tell you, if i tune the chanter 'perfectly' to the tuner, i'd better switch off the drones! so, i tune the chanter to the drones!.
same with flute: i propose this: tune your G (not A, since it's sharp on most flutes) to correct pitch, and then get some drone-device (the indien drone-box is perfect for this) and set it to the key of D, add 5th and/or 3rd. play your flute (or any other instrument!) to this drone. then change the drone pitch to E (or G or A or wathever), and play samething to that (be aware: play a D-tune to the D-drone, an A-tune to the A-drone).
you'll notice that you'll have to correct different notes for the different keys!
" ... i dont bother tuning my a's ever, because they're always in tune ... "
you mean you have perfect hearing? or you mean always in 440? or you always play with the same lot?
" ... you should never ever ever ever stop thinking about tuning, even after you've tuned ... "
NO! do stop THINKING about tuning! once you're in tune, just play, and FEEL the resonance!
mm
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by MM
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
I suppose it depends whether you're using a Pythagorean scale, a well-tempered scale, or an equal-tempered scale - I've only just begun to realise that scales are not made up of fixed intervals decreed as absolute at the dawn of time. Traditional music as played in the 19th century would not have used equal-tempered scales like you get on a modern piano and the key would have been more critical. Different instruments would not necessarily be hitting the same F sharps or G flats - in fact to a fiddler they can be slightly different notes - and all the other notes are open to interpretation, especially where I'm concerned. Perhaps we should all just agree to play Rolf Harris stylophones - no tuning needed!
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by RichardB
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
Thanks for all the advice guy`s, but i guess i`ll just tune to conan`s bodhran, it`ll be easier.
I`m not using any of the sam flutes at the minute, just the goodlad and willis one.
hey!
Maybe it IS the flute and not me.
Of course that could be wishful thinking.
By the way Con, will you ask our mate LD to get in touch with me?
Mxxx
# Posted on February 2nd 2005 by wreckin` rea
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
"I've only just begun to realise that scales are not made up of fixed intervals decreed as absolute at the dawn of time. "
Ah, *now* you're ready to start fiddling.
"Different instruments would not necessarily be hitting the same F sharps or G flats. . ."
And don't neglect your E sharp.
"Perhaps we should all just agree to play Rolf Harris stylophones - no tuning needed!"
Well, there's always Theremin if you want somthing in a serious instrument. It might be worth it just to see the reaction when you show up at a session with one.
KFG
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by KFG
Re: how do other musicians banish their bad tuning imp?
meempt - you tune to them. thats what not stopping tuning ever means. that means adjust to your instrument, adjust to who you're playing with. flutes can change pitch easier than most instruments. what you can do with a tuner is teach yourself to always be aware of pitch, on every note. teaching you to listen to yourself teaches you how to listen to others. when i play with people sometimes there instruments go out of tune and i just go with them, because i am learning how to tune every note, not just one note.
if you have a piper friend who will let you slowly tune every note on the flute to his pipes every day then by all means do that.
# Posted on February 3rd 2005 by daiv