I don't actually like heavily ornamented tunes. Now, most of this is because I'm I beginner player and can't play the frilly stuff easily but:
I've been listening to a friend who is an expert flute player, and most of the irishtrad stuff that he plays is so heavily ornamented with cuts and rolls that I have trouble working out what tune he is playing. In effect, he's playing melodies that are up and down and around like a stream of water and never still, and he tells me this is an ideal of the musical form.
But I still like the odd crotchets and dotted crotchets rising out of the melody like rocks in the sea.
So, seeing as I'm a beginner and prejudiced against hard stuff, what is the opinion of the more experienced players?
What a great question! It is the type of question that experienced players can debate endlessly. It virtually defines session playing, and leads to some of the guidelines to session playing.
In many sessions, no ornamentation is needed, because it can't be heard above the volume of all the players. Further, so much of the ornamentation is very subtle, just a flick of the finger, that it is fleeting, almost indiscernable (I didn't win any spelling bees, but that is the topic of another thread).
However, among the finest players, who share a common respect for each other, the volume is kept at a modest level, so that each can enjoy the finest moments of the others. In this situation, ornamentation becomes the focus, and the tune is simply a medium for the individual to express musicianship.
From this, we can choose to play unobtrusively, so as not to create undue clutter and chaos in the session, to leave space for others to express their individuality, and hope that others will respectfully do the same for us. It may take a while to find a session where this actually happens. It all comes down to making the best possible music, regardless of who might or might not be listening, to making music for the sheer enjoyment of sharing the musical experience. Typically, this is prevented from happening by people who are trying to prove something to themselves, or to someone else and who play too loud as a result.
So, play no more ornamentation than can be heard at a low volume.
From another perspective, much ornamentation is a 'play on the rhythm'. That is, 3 notes played in the time of two, or a short grace to add emphasis to the rhythm, etc. This strengthens the overall flow of the tune IF it is executed with near perfect rhythm.
Otherwise, it detracts from the tune, and weakens the session.
It is important to add only the ornaments that you can execute with near perfect timing, so that you can be a contributer to the overall flow of the tune, and not a detracter from it.
The difference between a good amateur and a good pro is timing; the ability to hit the beat, and to split the beat accurately. Tone comes with time, intonation comes with time, but time doesn't come with time! By that, I mean that tone and intonation will develop the more you play and practice, but timing will only improve if you focus on it, intentionally develop it. Practice with a metronome, or play along with recordings, or with players who have excellent timing. Stay away from MIDI soundtracks, because the beat, while split accurately, is split differently in ITM, than it is in MIDI. To have good timing requires the ability to space the beats evenly enough that others can feel the pulse of the music very clearly, and to do that even when others aren't! It is easy to become confused when others are not playing an even rhythm. The challenge then, is to play with such a solid rhythm, that others will gravitate to the more accurate rhythm. When you find others following 'your lead', then it is time to begin to develop ornamentation.
Don't be in a hurry to learn a lot of fancy ornaments. Get your playing good and solid first. The ornaments will start to happen when you are ready for them, and by then you will have the skills to develop your ornaments, and to execute them. If you try to learn them too early, you can pick up bad habits which are difficult to eliminate later. It is nice to have a few ornaments which can help you now, and some of the graces are natural for this purpose.
In the mean-time, listen to a lot of ITM, and by the time that your fingers are ready, you will have developed a sense of how much ornamentation to add, where to put it, and when to use it.
So, for now, experiment with some ornaments, and find a slide, grace, or flick of the finger which will strengthen (and not weaken)the tune and use it. The other ornaments will come when you are ready.
Remember, for most session playing, most players have little need for ornaments, simply because they cannot be heard.
Everyone has their own style. Some people play with only certain ornaments, some people go through ornament "periods" where they use triplets or rolls or slides or something else a lot and then find themselves enamoured of another kind of ornament at another time, other people don't use any ornamentation at all, and all of it is just fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing with little ornamentation if you don't care for that style for yourself.
I can't remember where I saw a reference to a player's style that commented that he played in "a fine, unornamented style that made it very easy to learn tunes from him," but it was a compliment.
Honestly, it's not the ornamentation that's important, but the feel of the thing. Ornamentation is simply a means for a player to personalize and make a tune their own. You're certainly on the right track in realizing that you can't yet play certain ornaments well and not using them when playing out, which shows that you have discernment, but certainly you should keep practising them -- it's just a part of your repertoire of things to make tunes your own.
When your friend says that his style is an ideal of ITM, it means that it's not the *only* ideal. As you develop your own style, it will also become an ideal -- and it will constantly change and grow as you change and grow as a player.
I think you could happily play in most sessions, and never use ornamentation. The simplest way to play a tune is often the nicest way. Some players overdo the ornamentation, among them some of the professionals. I can think of a banjo player who plays with so much ornamentation, that all the tunes sound the same. In most sessions there are players who can and players who can't, and overall they sound fine together. It is the exception to come across someone like Tommy Peoples or Matt Molloy who seem to have the balance exactly right, but at the end of the day, the music must come from you, and not seek to reach some "ideal" standard, because there is'nt such a thing.
I recall some 25 or more years ago going to Dublin to play on a TV programme as part of a large group of trad. musicians, and we were rehearsing on the bus as we traveled to the gig. One of the reels we were playing was called " The Lynch pin of Wallace's car", and I mentioned to the fiddle player ( an old man ) that I did'nt know the tune very well. He said " Saw away, no one will know", meaning that in the mix of instruments, my little errors would go unnoticed. I think this is the finest piece of advice you can give a novice with regard to ornamentation, or having the exactly correct version of a tune.
Oh while I'm on the subject, the same old gentleman was at a Fleadh ceoil one time and happened to meet the ajudicator of the fiddle competitions in the street. He asked the ajudicator to listen to his playing and tell him what he thought of it. He proceded to play his party piece and the adjudicator listened with the greatest interest. Afterwords he told him " If you left out half of what you put in , and put in half of what you left out" you'd be fine. He continues to this day to play the tune in exactly the same way as he did that day, and it sounds fine to him. The moral of this story being " Who has the problem here??" So stick to the simple versions, they might be closer to the "ideal" than you think!!
Lots of good advice there...from my point of view as a whistle player, ornamention, or a least a little ornamention is essential.
For instance, triplets put in at opportune moments can be very effective, the trick is to choose where the ornament is to go and practice it very slowly making sure it keeps within the rhythm of the tune.
An example is The Battering Ram Jig which is on this site...on the third bar of the second section. The first three notes are D E G if you put an F# between the E and G so making the E and F# 16th notes(semi quavers) and the G an 8th note(quaver) that makes a nice little ornament...I know you didn't ask for any specific ornaments and you probably know anyway, but I thought I would mention it.
I agree that many tunes sound just fine without ornaments, but some tunes almost require them. I'm thinking of tunes like Last Night's Fun, the Humours of Tulla, Maids of Mount Cisco, Toss the Feathers, etc., where the rolls and/or triplets effectively make the tune, and without them, you'll sound like the Boston Pops trying to play Irish music.
Also bear in mind that the really good musicians can make a tune sound good without ornaments, and then gradually layer them in until it's "full" but still pulling on your heart strings. Listen to Martin Hayes on fiddle, or Kevin Crawford on flute to hear a tune go from plain to ornate in one track.
So if the ornamentation is difficult for you, or doesn't sit well on your ears, then leave it alone for a while longer and focus on tunes that sound great without it. Jigs, slip jigs, and polkas rarely "require" ornamentation. Many reels also sound good played plainly. Hornpipes, too, although you'll eventually hear lots of opportunities for triplets if you play enough hornpipes and listen to other trad players.
Too answer your larger question, how much ornamentation is too much, my personal sense is that it's too much when it detracts from rather than enhances the pulse and melodic structure. If you're really adept with ornaments, you'll be able to put more in without reaching that point of diminishing returns. If I tried to put as many triplets into Crooked Road to Dublin as Martin Hayes does, I would sound like crap. But Hayes does it well, and for my taste, it suits the tune. If you're a complete newcomer, better to concentrate on getting the basic rhythm and melody going, then add ornaments later, after the basics are solid and you've had time to practice your cuts, rolls, triplets, etc.
> I've been listening to a friend who is an expert flute player, and most of the irishtrad stuff that he plays is so heavily ornamented with cuts and rolls that I have trouble working out what tune he is playing.
Cat I wrote something to the effect that your description would apply very well to a number of flute players I have heard!
If you can't work out what tune he's playing, it may be that you're not familiar enough with the music. On the other hand, it may be that his expertise, which you mention, outstrips his taste. Or that his taste in ornaments actually goes beyond his ability to execute them properly.
In time you'll know where the truth of the matter lies...
Sounds to me like it's time to go back and listen, listen, listen. As a pal of mine says, that how you develop your "tastebuds" for phrasing, ornamentation, variation. Be careful to avoid the flashy stuff on steroids, though.
I like the last comment about phrasing. It seems to me that the phrasing of a tune is rather like the musical foundation. Once this is set in place, the need (or desire) for ornamentation will become evident. As was mentioned earlier, ornamentation should enhance the tune, compliment the pulse, and represent your individual 'take' of the tune. If you're playing along with others, having the same ornaments and phrasing propels a tune to very energetic levels. The trick lies in doing so without racing through the tune.
Yes, but very often the ornamentations are just part of the tune as you learn it by ear. I don't think that ornamenting has all that much to do do with racing.
Racing is counter ornamentationing, the way I see it!
If I can't recognise a tune I think I should be able to recognise, it is usually not because of ornamentations, but rather because it is not played with that vital Irish feel that cannot be put down in written music.
I have heard classical musicians who think Irish music is a doddle, but they are totally unaware that they have missed the point all together. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it is something to keep in mind. If it doesn't sound right, its probably because it isn't!!!
Cheers
At one of the flute classes at the Willie Clancy week several years ago, tutor PJ Crotty told us about one older traditional player who had been asked by a learner whether or not he should put a "roll" in a particular place in a certain tune that had just been played. "Well," was the reply, "putting a roll in there would be a bit like scratching yourself where it doesn't itch".
Awful lot of itchy players around today!
PS - when thinking about ornamentation, remember Miko Russell. Very sparse ornamentation, but a truly great player.
My advice would be don't put ornamentation in just because you can - first ask yourself if it is really necessary, and will it make the tune any better?
Cat,
I think Brother Steve has hit the nail on the head. If you have trouble working out what tune your friend is playing, chances are that he is not the expert he makes out. In traditional Irish dance music, ornamentation is primarily a rhythymic device and should enhance the tune not take it over altogether. The tune is not “simply a medium for the individual to express musicianship”,rather technique should be used to express the tune. It quickly becomes tedious when a tune is reduced to a series of rolls. A good musician will vary the ornamentation. I tend to think of ornamentation like vocabulary. Words are useful for expressing ideas but devoid of ideas are merely hot air. On the other hand, you need the vocabulary to express your ideas.
To answer your question “How much ornamentation is too much?”, too much is when it gets in the way of the tune rather than enhancing it.
To your implied question “Do I need to bother learning this stuff?” I would say yes, if you intend to progress to playing reels in an authentic manner rather than sounding like the Boston Pops. Get a recording of Miko Russel to find out how little you can get away with. Listen to Martin Hayes to find out how much you can get away with!
My advice would be to obtain a good book for your instrument or better still a good teacher. Begin with the simple ornaments (cuts), practise them separately before incorporating into a tune. Master the cuts before progressing to rolls, crans etc.
Good Luck!
To ornament or not to ornament?
To ornament or not to ornament?
I have a confession to make.
I don't actually like heavily ornamented tunes. Now, most of this is because I'm I beginner player and can't play the frilly stuff easily but:
I've been listening to a friend who is an expert flute player, and most of the irishtrad stuff that he plays is so heavily ornamented with cuts and rolls that I have trouble working out what tune he is playing. In effect, he's playing melodies that are up and down and around like a stream of water and never still, and he tells me this is an ideal of the musical form.
But I still like the odd crotchets and dotted crotchets rising out of the melody like rocks in the sea.
So, seeing as I'm a beginner and prejudiced against hard stuff, what is the opinion of the more experienced players?
How much ornamentation is too much?
# Posted on May 19th 2002 by cat
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
What a great question! It is the type of question that experienced players can debate endlessly. It virtually defines session playing, and leads to some of the guidelines to session playing.
In many sessions, no ornamentation is needed, because it can't be heard above the volume of all the players. Further, so much of the ornamentation is very subtle, just a flick of the finger, that it is fleeting, almost indiscernable (I didn't win any spelling bees, but that is the topic of another thread).
However, among the finest players, who share a common respect for each other, the volume is kept at a modest level, so that each can enjoy the finest moments of the others. In this situation, ornamentation becomes the focus, and the tune is simply a medium for the individual to express musicianship.
From this, we can choose to play unobtrusively, so as not to create undue clutter and chaos in the session, to leave space for others to express their individuality, and hope that others will respectfully do the same for us. It may take a while to find a session where this actually happens. It all comes down to making the best possible music, regardless of who might or might not be listening, to making music for the sheer enjoyment of sharing the musical experience. Typically, this is prevented from happening by people who are trying to prove something to themselves, or to someone else and who play too loud as a result.
So, play no more ornamentation than can be heard at a low volume.
From another perspective, much ornamentation is a 'play on the rhythm'. That is, 3 notes played in the time of two, or a short grace to add emphasis to the rhythm, etc. This strengthens the overall flow of the tune IF it is executed with near perfect rhythm.
Otherwise, it detracts from the tune, and weakens the session.
It is important to add only the ornaments that you can execute with near perfect timing, so that you can be a contributer to the overall flow of the tune, and not a detracter from it.
The difference between a good amateur and a good pro is timing; the ability to hit the beat, and to split the beat accurately. Tone comes with time, intonation comes with time, but time doesn't come with time! By that, I mean that tone and intonation will develop the more you play and practice, but timing will only improve if you focus on it, intentionally develop it. Practice with a metronome, or play along with recordings, or with players who have excellent timing. Stay away from MIDI soundtracks, because the beat, while split accurately, is split differently in ITM, than it is in MIDI. To have good timing requires the ability to space the beats evenly enough that others can feel the pulse of the music very clearly, and to do that even when others aren't! It is easy to become confused when others are not playing an even rhythm. The challenge then, is to play with such a solid rhythm, that others will gravitate to the more accurate rhythm. When you find others following 'your lead', then it is time to begin to develop ornamentation.
Don't be in a hurry to learn a lot of fancy ornaments. Get your playing good and solid first. The ornaments will start to happen when you are ready for them, and by then you will have the skills to develop your ornaments, and to execute them. If you try to learn them too early, you can pick up bad habits which are difficult to eliminate later. It is nice to have a few ornaments which can help you now, and some of the graces are natural for this purpose.
In the mean-time, listen to a lot of ITM, and by the time that your fingers are ready, you will have developed a sense of how much ornamentation to add, where to put it, and when to use it.
So, for now, experiment with some ornaments, and find a slide, grace, or flick of the finger which will strengthen (and not weaken)the tune and use it. The other ornaments will come when you are ready.
Remember, for most session playing, most players have little need for ornaments, simply because they cannot be heard.
Best of luck
Scotty
# Posted on May 19th 2002 by scottythefiddler
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Everyone has their own style. Some people play with only certain ornaments, some people go through ornament "periods" where they use triplets or rolls or slides or something else a lot and then find themselves enamoured of another kind of ornament at another time, other people don't use any ornamentation at all, and all of it is just fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing with little ornamentation if you don't care for that style for yourself.
I can't remember where I saw a reference to a player's style that commented that he played in "a fine, unornamented style that made it very easy to learn tunes from him," but it was a compliment.
Honestly, it's not the ornamentation that's important, but the feel of the thing. Ornamentation is simply a means for a player to personalize and make a tune their own. You're certainly on the right track in realizing that you can't yet play certain ornaments well and not using them when playing out, which shows that you have discernment, but certainly you should keep practising them -- it's just a part of your repertoire of things to make tunes your own.
When your friend says that his style is an ideal of ITM, it means that it's not the *only* ideal. As you develop your own style, it will also become an ideal -- and it will constantly change and grow as you change and grow as a player.
Zina
# Posted on May 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
I think you could happily play in most sessions, and never use ornamentation. The simplest way to play a tune is often the nicest way. Some players overdo the ornamentation, among them some of the professionals. I can think of a banjo player who plays with so much ornamentation, that all the tunes sound the same. In most sessions there are players who can and players who can't, and overall they sound fine together. It is the exception to come across someone like Tommy Peoples or Matt Molloy who seem to have the balance exactly right, but at the end of the day, the music must come from you, and not seek to reach some "ideal" standard, because there is'nt such a thing.
I recall some 25 or more years ago going to Dublin to play on a TV programme as part of a large group of trad. musicians, and we were rehearsing on the bus as we traveled to the gig. One of the reels we were playing was called " The Lynch pin of Wallace's car", and I mentioned to the fiddle player ( an old man ) that I did'nt know the tune very well. He said " Saw away, no one will know", meaning that in the mix of instruments, my little errors would go unnoticed. I think this is the finest piece of advice you can give a novice with regard to ornamentation, or having the exactly correct version of a tune.
Oh while I'm on the subject, the same old gentleman was at a Fleadh ceoil one time and happened to meet the ajudicator of the fiddle competitions in the street. He asked the ajudicator to listen to his playing and tell him what he thought of it. He proceded to play his party piece and the adjudicator listened with the greatest interest. Afterwords he told him " If you left out half of what you put in , and put in half of what you left out" you'd be fine. He continues to this day to play the tune in exactly the same way as he did that day, and it sounds fine to him. The moral of this story being " Who has the problem here??" So stick to the simple versions, they might be closer to the "ideal" than you think!!
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Backer
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Lots of good advice there...from my point of view as a whistle player, ornamention, or a least a little ornamention is essential.
For instance, triplets put in at opportune moments can be very effective, the trick is to choose where the ornament is to go and practice it very slowly making sure it keeps within the rhythm of the tune.
An example is The Battering Ram Jig which is on this site...on the third bar of the second section. The first three notes are D E G if you put an F# between the E and G so making the E and F# 16th notes(semi quavers) and the G an 8th note(quaver) that makes a nice little ornament...I know you didn't ask for any specific ornaments and you probably know anyway, but I thought I would mention it.
Cheers,
Dave.
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Twiz
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
I agree that many tunes sound just fine without ornaments, but some tunes almost require them. I'm thinking of tunes like Last Night's Fun, the Humours of Tulla, Maids of Mount Cisco, Toss the Feathers, etc., where the rolls and/or triplets effectively make the tune, and without them, you'll sound like the Boston Pops trying to play Irish music.
Also bear in mind that the really good musicians can make a tune sound good without ornaments, and then gradually layer them in until it's "full" but still pulling on your heart strings. Listen to Martin Hayes on fiddle, or Kevin Crawford on flute to hear a tune go from plain to ornate in one track.
So if the ornamentation is difficult for you, or doesn't sit well on your ears, then leave it alone for a while longer and focus on tunes that sound great without it. Jigs, slip jigs, and polkas rarely "require" ornamentation. Many reels also sound good played plainly. Hornpipes, too, although you'll eventually hear lots of opportunities for triplets if you play enough hornpipes and listen to other trad players.
Too answer your larger question, how much ornamentation is too much, my personal sense is that it's too much when it detracts from rather than enhances the pulse and melodic structure. If you're really adept with ornaments, you'll be able to put more in without reaching that point of diminishing returns. If I tried to put as many triplets into Crooked Road to Dublin as Martin Hayes does, I would sound like crap. But Hayes does it well, and for my taste, it suits the tune. If you're a complete newcomer, better to concentrate on getting the basic rhythm and melody going, then add ornaments later, after the basics are solid and you've had time to practice your cuts, rolls, triplets, etc.
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
> I've been listening to a friend who is an expert flute player, and most of the irishtrad stuff that he plays is so heavily ornamented with cuts and rolls that I have trouble working out what tune he is playing.
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Jeeves Tones
Arrgh!
OK, shouldn't use angle brackets in posts.
Cat I wrote something to the effect that your description would apply very well to a number of flute players I have heard!
If you can't work out what tune he's playing, it may be that you're not familiar enough with the music. On the other hand, it may be that his expertise, which you mention, outstrips his taste. Or that his taste in ornaments actually goes beyond his ability to execute them properly.
In time you'll know where the truth of the matter lies...
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Jeeves Tones
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Thanks for the advice, guys
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by cat
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Sounds to me like it's time to go back and listen, listen, listen. As a pal of mine says, that how you develop your "tastebuds" for phrasing, ornamentation, variation. Be careful to avoid the flashy stuff on steroids, though.
# Posted on May 21st 2002 by Bloomfield
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
I like the last comment about phrasing. It seems to me that the phrasing of a tune is rather like the musical foundation. Once this is set in place, the need (or desire) for ornamentation will become evident. As was mentioned earlier, ornamentation should enhance the tune, compliment the pulse, and represent your individual 'take' of the tune. If you're playing along with others, having the same ornaments and phrasing propels a tune to very energetic levels. The trick lies in doing so without racing through the tune.
# Posted on May 23rd 2002 by Imnotirish
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Yes, but very often the ornamentations are just part of the tune as you learn it by ear. I don't think that ornamenting has all that much to do do with racing.
Racing is counter ornamentationing, the way I see it!
If I can't recognise a tune I think I should be able to recognise, it is usually not because of ornamentations, but rather because it is not played with that vital Irish feel that cannot be put down in written music.
I have heard classical musicians who think Irish music is a doddle, but they are totally unaware that they have missed the point all together. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it is something to keep in mind. If it doesn't sound right, its probably because it isn't!!!
Cheers
# Posted on May 24th 2002 by Jill
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
PS: for you anyway!!!!
# Posted on May 24th 2002 by Jill
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
At one of the flute classes at the Willie Clancy week several years ago, tutor PJ Crotty told us about one older traditional player who had been asked by a learner whether or not he should put a "roll" in a particular place in a certain tune that had just been played. "Well," was the reply, "putting a roll in there would be a bit like scratching yourself where it doesn't itch".
Awful lot of itchy players around today!
PS - when thinking about ornamentation, remember Miko Russell. Very sparse ornamentation, but a truly great player.
My advice would be don't put ornamentation in just because you can - first ask yourself if it is really necessary, and will it make the tune any better?
# Posted on May 26th 2002 by Kenny
Re: To ornament or not to ornament?
Cat,
I think Brother Steve has hit the nail on the head. If you have trouble working out what tune your friend is playing, chances are that he is not the expert he makes out. In traditional Irish dance music, ornamentation is primarily a rhythymic device and should enhance the tune not take it over altogether. The tune is not “simply a medium for the individual to express musicianship”,rather technique should be used to express the tune. It quickly becomes tedious when a tune is reduced to a series of rolls. A good musician will vary the ornamentation. I tend to think of ornamentation like vocabulary. Words are useful for expressing ideas but devoid of ideas are merely hot air. On the other hand, you need the vocabulary to express your ideas.
To answer your question “How much ornamentation is too much?”, too much is when it gets in the way of the tune rather than enhancing it.
To your implied question “Do I need to bother learning this stuff?” I would say yes, if you intend to progress to playing reels in an authentic manner rather than sounding like the Boston Pops. Get a recording of Miko Russel to find out how little you can get away with. Listen to Martin Hayes to find out how much you can get away with!
My advice would be to obtain a good book for your instrument or better still a good teacher. Begin with the simple ornaments (cuts), practise them separately before incorporating into a tune. Master the cuts before progressing to rolls, crans etc.
Good Luck!
# Posted on May 29th 2002 by milesnagopaleen