SO I HAVE BECOME COMFORTABLE THE |DDD UUU DU| BOWING BUT ONE THING ISN'T RIGHT. SAY FOR EXAMPLE THAT I WAS PLAYING "IN THE TAP ROOM". THE FIRST MEASURE EBEDE. MY PROBLEM IS THAT I CAN'T MAKE THE B AND D STICK OUT ENOUGH. OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PROBABLY DUE TO LACK OF EXPERIENCE BUT IS THERE ANY TRICKS ON MAKING THIS EASIER.
AND HOW ELSE CAN I BOW THIS LIKE JIGS AND HORNPIPE. KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM DOING THIS TO GET THE GENERAL IDEA BUT ONCE I UNDERSTAND, I WILL NOT STICK TO A PARTICULAR SET OF BOWINGS. I WANT TO GET ALL THE TOOLS IN MY TOOL BELT.
Ah, it's berserker -- our anonymous poster with no profile and can't figure out how to switch off his "caps" key. Uh... *ahem* HI BERSERKER, HOW'S THE FIDDLING COMING ALONG? *cough hack hack* Sorry, I can't yell like that, I just got over a bad cough.
Move the bow a bit faster and longer on the B and D, AJ. (You can also lean on it a bit, but it's not as good a technique, if you care about stuff like that.)
I'm sure he's a lovely boy, but how old do you have to be to learn about cap-lock keys? Has anyone sat him down and said, "Uh AJ... see this key... You might want to switch it off so you aren't typing with all caps -- it looks like you're yelling. This is a public message board, that means other people are using it too."
He did it unthinkingly once, and after getting hammered on, decided to do it thinkingly. Ah, contrary youth. On the other hand, if readers of his posts can't determine through context clues that he isn't yelling, he can quickly recognize them as people who aren't thinking critically enough to offer sound advice.
His father
Hello folks doesn't anyone find it a bit silly to be whinging on about capital vs lower case letters?? This isn't even real conversation, so how can one be yelling? In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Sheesh.
Oh, I agree Zina, but I think some take it a bit seriously. Putting that into the context of something that's a part real converstion is a bit over the top. Caps aren't the only thing that can be hard to read on screen. I guess I was just saying that I find it silly to start casting personal aspersions on the basis of one's typesetting choice!
Very true, meemtp. Although this is perhaps more "real conversation" than that. Communication is communication, although what communication is about isn't always how it reads or sounds. The rules of computer mediated communication aren't all that outre'.
You're totally right that casting personal aspersions on almost anything said civilly here is not on, though.
At any rate, have you tried the bowing bit, AJ? Hope it helps. (Sometimes it helps to think of the notes as "longer" than the others, even if they really aren't.)
Mine's lousy too! Zina's advice about thinking of some notes as "longer" is good advice. Hard for me to describe, but certain notes can be longer, not necessarily slurred, and still stay within the rhythmic context. Again, hard for me to describe, but it works very well in places.
It's just that us city folks, when we're online late at night, and trying to keep the noise down, and then someone comes shouting like they're on top of Everest, we get complaints from the neighbours.
Sorry, but I never learnt this |DDD UUU DU| BOWING thing. Can someone explain it while we're on the topic. Is it done in jig time?
How does it relate to his notes: "THE FIRST MEASURE EBEDE"
String crossings there I presume.
Since no one else seems willing to sit AJ down and suggest he might re-consider how his typing style is perceived by his fellow session.org members… I have compiled the following quotes and the URLs from whence they came as a learning resource for our fledgling message board contributor. (And anyone else who thinks this doesn’t matter)
Use upper and lower case only where appropriate. UPPERCASE may be used to HIGHLIGHT. Typing an entire message in uppercase is considered equivalent to shouting and is annoying.
Don't shout. Don't use all capital letters, (UPPERCASE) or overdo punctuation!!!!!!. See the example below. This common practice is the on-line equivalent of shouting. Its considered by many to be very rude. If you must use UPPERCASE, use it very sparingly and only to emphasize a particularly important point. Ask yourself, "if I was talking to the recipient face to face, would I be raising my voice to them?"
Don’t type your message in ALL UPPERCASE - it’s extremely difficult to read and considered shouting. (Although a short stretch of uppercase may serve to emphasize a point heavily). Try to break your message into logical paragraphs and restrict your sentences to sensible lengths.
DON'T SHOUT--unless you really mean it. The use of all uppercase letters is considered shouting, and therefore rude. Part of the problem with all caps is that it is harder to read than mixed case. The other problem is that since facial expression and tone of voice are missing from electronic communication, some way to express strong opinions (both positive and negative) is needed, so ALL CAPS has been designated. Additionally, the use of *'s can indicate *emphasis* and _'s can mean _underlined_.
The first time I saw Kevin Burke play was on an early tour with Michael O’Domhngbhjailldh, and I remember being shocked that he played with lots of long bow strokes. But every time I’ve seen him since then, he’s bowed more as I expected, with a “normal” mix of slurs and strokes. I don’t remember it sounding any different. He seems to be able to make the rhythm happen no matter how the bow is travelling.
Some Cajun fiddlers play the shuffle so the emphasis is on the upstroke. I tried it and nearly put my eye out.
Yeah, Bob, somewhere in the archives, (I think it was) Will has a story of Kevin Burke showing him a way to bow a tune, and then doing the whole thing backwards from the way he'd just showed him to demonstrate that it can still sound the same. ;)
I sure got the point, Jack. I see I've been a laissez-faire parent, so I'm moving cyber-manners to the top of my to-do list. As for AJ, I'm sure he will be greatly influenced by the weight of your research -- as any teenager would -- into doing the right thing from now on.
Zina, thanks on AJ's behalf for the suggestion. He appears to have posted his question late last night or this morning before school, so I'm sure he hasn't had a chance to try your suggestions yet.
I'm a non-fiddler, so forgive the ignorance of this question, but could the same thing (bringing out those couple of notes) be achieved by shortening, rather than lengthening them? In other words, to emphasize them by trying to articulate them? Or can't that really be done in the bowing configuration he describes?
Hmmm. I suppose if you leaned on them at the same time you shortened them, Paul, they might, but I suspect the tendency to then rush the note/tempo would be almost impossible not to fall into, at least for a fiddler who isn't fairly expert. (I'm basing this on trying to imagine what would happen to me if I tried it, since I fall into that category.)
I'd say to have him try giving the note the very longest length of bow he can and still stay in tempo is still probably my best piece of advice on that one...
Actually, from a completely different perspective, I never read posts in caps because I just automatically assume they are going to be dumb questions from barely literate people and not worth my time. I know that's a pretty harsh and sweeping generalization, but I really had to think about it before I realized that's how I feel. I guess I'm a literacy snob. Even so, I did take the time to read through AJ's post the three or four times it took me to figure out what he was talking about (I'm telling you, for some reason the caps make it really tough for me!) but I'm afraid I don't have an easy answer.
If you've decided that particular bowing pattern is what you want to work on, you could try doing it really slowly, and playing with the pressure, bow length, etc (as Zina is saying) until the note sounds the way you want it to sound. Try moving the same crossing pattern to different strings and using different fingers to help dislodge any possible blocks you might have about this technique.
Lean the bow on the beats (B and d) and lightly brush the bow against the E's. I don't have my fiddle with me right now so I can't say if that's what I do or not....
Hey, this isn't Ostrichfeathers speaking here. I'm a friend and fiddler posting under her name. About the bowing thing, if you're talking about bowing the first group of notes from this tune DDDUUUDU, with the first note of the tune being a quarter note, say with the tune Drowsy Maggie, I am very confident that you did in fact remember what James Kelly taught you wrong. I highly recommend DDUUDDUD; this also leaves you on a down bow for the first note of the next measure, which will give it a slight accent. Another good option is DDUUUDUD. I know James would agree, because he uses these bowing patterns in his playing. These two bowing patterns can always be used successfully for this kind of pattern of notes, where every other note is the same note (Morning Dew, Flowers of Redhill, Glass of Beer, etc). The B and D will stick out much better with this bowing. Good luck!
Bowing is very simple; if you find yourself at one end of the bow, change direction. It doesn't matter what you do as long as the music "sounds right". Contrariwise, If you don't know what "sounds right" it doesn't really matter what you do with the bow. Is that clear?
Wow you guys. thanks for a snowy night of entertaining rants on bowing. I guess I'll go with Orson's approach. I am plowing my way through any tune I can learn and the bowing is my last concern. How about "if it feels" right? That's how I decide, until I'm tired of the feel of it and then I am challenged to approach the whole set up of the tune differently and try some other bowing. Does this make sense to all of you "ancient" fiddler geeks (affectionately put) OR AM I REALLY OFF KEEL HERE?
snowy blessings, saille fearn aka mary anna
For the phrase |E2 BE dEBE|, one way I would bow it is to start the E2 on an up bow, catch the first B on a down bow, then slur up across EdE, down on the next B, and up on the last E.
The trick to getting the EdE to work on an up bow is that you just nod your index finger down to catch the d--in other words, your forearm stays where it is (on the "third string plane"), and you dip the bow for just a nanosecond to the second string for the high d, and come back to the E on the third string, all while keeping a nice steady flow to the single up-bow stroke.
Not that this is the only way to bow such a phrase, but it *is* one of the more common approaches in Irish music, for a very common string crossing phrase.
AJ, sorry for the delay, but I have the hard copy bowing ideas in hand and will mail them to you tomorrow.
Fiddler here again. I assume the post by Orson was a joke. If so, it is very funny! Using good slurring is a very important part of playing the tune with good rhythm, because the slurring creates rhythmic differences. You wouldn't find any of the fiddle greats saying it doesn't matter how you slur, and though there is a wide range of different styles of slurring that are great, there are definitely some guidelines that should be followed and are followed by the masters. For an extreme example, they would never slur from one end of the bow to another. In jigs, they would never slur every three notes together just because jigs are felt in groups of three or six notes. They would never slur every four notes together in a reel, even if it felt physically comfortable, because it creates an undesirable rhythmic effect. Liz Carroll pointed out to me that she rarely slurs reels in groups of two notes.
It can be hard to define in words how to slur tunes, partly because there are many different ways to slur them that sound great. There are also many ways to slur them that sound pretty bad, especially to a good fiddler. It all depends on how serious you are about getting good. If you just want to learn lots of tunes and play at sessions or whatever, and you are enjoying it, then keep it up and don't worry about how you slur. If you are concerned about sounding better, but you're not sure how to, slurring is a huge part of playing well. Seek the advice of great fiddlers. Go to their workshops, and get a private lesson whenever possible.
There was another discussion that mentioned that Kevin Burke demonstrated that playing a tune without any slurs at all sounds just as good as with slurs. First of all, of course a player of his ability could play that way and still make it sound pretty good. But he would never really play that way, and if he played that way at a concert, and Liz Carroll or Frankie Gavin were in the audience, I'm sure they would wonder "what on Earth is he doing; no slurs? That sounds bad!".
Listening to great recordings will help, but it can be difficult for even upper intermediate players to tell exactly what slurring is being used in a recording; a teacher critiquing your slurring is optimal. Hope this helps. Don't get overwhelmed! If you really want to get the hang of good slurring, I know you can do it. It will make you sound much better.
Suspicion is good. Alot of people out there say crazy things, especially on the internet, so it's good not to trust everything you read. I also have noticed that many of the masters do not themselves know how to describe the patterns of slurring that they use; many simply do it without knowing what they're doing (they just know what sounds good). Therefore it is possible that a small number of them might even say that it doesn't matter how you slur (although I've never heard this) even though there are conventions that they are following. I have heard James Kelly, Seamus Connolly, Liz Carroll, Brian Conway, and Matt Cranitch discuss the do's and don'ts of slurring. Again, there are many different slurrings that sound good, but there are definitely some ways of slurring that are less desireable to the general consensus of good fiddlers. I have studied the slurring on recordings of several greats and discovered that there are definitely some slurring patterns that they do not incorporate, and there are many slurring patterns that they tend to have in common.
Hey FOOF Only my first sentence was a joke. I think it's too easy for people to obsess about bowing to the detriment of the way they play. I'm familiar with the work of several fiddle teachers (no names, no pack drill), and (harsh generalisation) it seems the ones who focus on explicit bowing instructions produce less fluent, rounded players. I think I'm with Kevin Burke on this topic ... not that I'm claiming to have met him, oh no. But our DOG ran THROUGH his BACK yard.
I agree that teachers should not over-emphasize bowing, especially if the student has a very hard time following specific slurrings, if it gets to the point where they're neglecting other aspects of playing. It's interesting to note that Kevin Burke has a VERY unique way of slurring. There are several conventions he does not follow. If the student has an easy enough time picking up slurring though, then it's worth working on because it makes it sound better. But again, if to you're ears it makes no difference how you slur, then why bother.
Well, all things in moderation, including moderation. Kevin Burke is quite capable of picking apart bowing technique when he's in the mood (which, apparently, isn't terribly often), and all. Let's face it, if you don't pay *any* attention to bowing at all, you're not going to sound very good on that fiddle. But you can also take it to the other extreme and pay so much attention to it that everything else suffers.
It's good to think about things like bowing and to try things out, there's nothing wrong with it. You'll note that AJ put a disclaimer in when he first posted, trying to forestall some of this old and familiar argument. It sort of worked, but human nature is human nature. Even if he is willing to look rather illiterate to make his point (thanks, Kerri, because I never really thought about it before, but you're right), at least he cares enough about his fiddling to get every single tool he can get his paws on into that tool kit. I totally respect that bit.
When that technique stuff all becomes second nature, then you *don't* have to think about it anymore. But until it is, you do. So for all of us less than stellar fiddlers, I'd remember that Orson has been playing for a little bit before stopping thinking about bowing at all. ;)
For what it's worth (not much, I realize), I think AJ's going about it the right way, even if the caps make it harder to read and he's being a little sh*t about it. *smirk*
Because I (and Will) already know how long AJ's been playing, who he is, and more or less what level he plays at, we *can* offer good and specific advice -- and in fact this is a continuation of an older thread (and btw, AJ, I'm impressed with your perseverence). There's nothing wrong with not having anything in one's bio, but neither is there anything wrong with having something there -- if I didn't already know AJ's situation, it would have helped to know something about how long he's been playing.
Can we *please* try not to swing from one side to the other? I know that's human nature, but...can we try?
I don't endorse writing in all-caps either, but I'd also recommend being careful about making assumptions on the relationship between literacy and intelligence. I'll bet there's some old black sharecroppers from the pre-WWI days who could've told us all a thing or two about music as well as about life.
i'm not sure whether this is relevant to the question, but i'll say it anyway.
talking about jigs, not reels, a real breakthrough for me was when in a workshop where i took on board this kind of bowing pattern::
DUDDUD UDUUDU
it can give a really nice lift to a tune, kind of taking the momentum built up in one phrase and piling it onto the next. thinking about it, i think i tend to more
of the second bar kind (slurring on the up bow) than the first bar.
as i play more of a scottish style, i tend to play
more separate notes, but i imagine the basic principle might be the same in irish. to my shame i haven't waded into Prof. Harmon's tomes on the subject, but
i'd be surprised if this wasn't totally standard stuff.
(using my own slightly idiosyncratic capitalisation :-])
cuchulain, my association with caps, literacy and intelligence was unintentional, probably absorbed because in my experience, 9 out of 10 all caps posts are either irritating hit and runs or wind-ups. (Aj being the one in ten that has some other motive.)
Anyhow, a friend of mine has recently picked up the fiddle and is having a tough time with bowing. She is a little stuck on note-counting at the moment ("up-two-three-four-down-two-up-two) or something and it is having a negative impact on her playing. It struck me that since she has an excellent ear and good feeling for the music, what she ought to do is concentrate instead on the tune and which notes she wants to stand out, then build her bowing around that instead of trying to play all her tunes with the same pattern.
Note counting bow patterns is useful as a drill, (play five or ten tunes with *only* this pattern, then *only* that one and keep trying to think of new ones you've never tried before) but I don't see what purpose it would have as a finished product.
I am fascinated by this. Do people really count the notes per bow stroke and stick to it throughout the tune? How do you do it? Like, right the pattern up on the chalk board and slowly read it off as you play?
AJ's question seems to point to a failing in the patterns. I don't know the tune to which he is referring, but if the pattern does not work, it does not work. So why stick rigidly when it does not work?
I shudder to think that I have a bowing pattern, which I probably do. I would prefer to think that the tune has more to do with the bowing than the fiddler does (within the framework of a regional style). But perhaps that is the same story, different perspective.
I do think about the bowing, but very rarely do I think about which direction the bow is going, and I do not think I have ever consciously thought about a pattern.
A few questions back to AJ or other beginners: have the bowing patterns been a useful tool for you? Do you feel at all constricted by the patterns? And how do you feel about the idividuality of your playing as a result?
You'll note that AJ mentions that "KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM DOING THIS TO GET THE GENERAL IDEA BUT ONCE I UNDERSTAND, I WILL NOT STICK TO A PARTICULAR SET OF BOWINGS. I WANT TO GET ALL THE TOOLS IN MY TOOL BELT."
We went through this the first time, which is likely why he put that disclaimer in there in the first place. No, no one is saying that you should always use a pattern or that the patterns will always work for every tune, but that the use of patterns to get the idea and give the muscle memory something to pattern off of is a useful tool.
Jode, yes I've found patterns useful, and no, I don't feel constricted by them. The rare times I do any useful practicing I sometimes pick a relatively simple pattern and play a whole tune with it to shake up my habitual way of playing it. I usually pick something that causes me to slur through the first beat.
It's helpful because it helps dislodge me from ruts acquired with tunes I learned when I really really really stunk (as opposed to just being suspiciously aromatic), hear the tune in a whole new way, and play with ornamentation where I would otherwise have used a change in bow direction.
LOL -- Ker, the day you don't come up with something clever is the day that the world ends. Or something like that. The leaky vessel is probably my very favorite so far, though, although you've certainly come up with some good'uns.
Thanks Kerri for taking my questions at face value. Zina, I was not putting AJ down for doing this, or anyone else. I hope he will also take my questions at face value and answer them honestly.
What I am wondering about Zina, is if you put a pattern into your "muscle memory", does that just create a new rut?
An untrained brain is perhaps a little like a big flat expanse of deep, soft snow. The first time you walk through it (practice), it's a great struggle. If you carry on walking the same way, you'll make a rut. Leaving the rut is hard, but if you try a bit more you can make another rut. After a while you might be able to wear down whole areas where you can wander easily whereever you like... freedom!
When i'm practising, I try to find those areas that I haven't yet "trodden down" - it's good when it feels difficult, 'cos it means I'm creating freedom for myself in the future.
Following exercises is a good way to try and leave the ruts: allowing something external to influence the direction you're going, rather than doing what comes naturally, which will tend to follow an existing rut.
This is why it's just silly to say this music is "easy" - any music is exactly as hard as you want to make it - as long as you can still find a challenge there.
Well, I was sorta addressing both of you! Thanks! I may try it out myself, although it doesn't sound like a tool that would necessarily suit me. But since I am teaching now, maybe it would be useful to some of my students.
Heh. I think you should try it yourself before you start teaching it to your students. It's likely you're a better teacher than I am. My advice is all purely theoretical. ;^)
That's very true, rog, when you say the brain is "like a big flat expanse of deep, soft snow." The problem is with my brain is that it never stops snowing.
Jim...I think you should just hook up with Jeremy and get a webcam interface for the yellow board here. That way, you can jump on those demonstrations reel time.
In this music, on fiddle, there are musical phrases that create possible patterns of fingerings and string crossings and bowings. An example is the phrase from In the Tap Room:
|E2 BE dEBE|
This is a very common motif in Irish reels:
|G2 BG dGBG|
|G2 BG cGBG|
|F2 AF BFAF|
|c2 ec gcec|
...and so on.
Obviously, you can bow it all single strokes, and you can start either on an up bow or a down bow.
And you can introduce slurs. One common way of adding slurs is to come into that first quarter note from the pick-up note, or the last note of the previous bar. You can do this initial slur either on an up bow or a down bow.
Another very common slur among Irish fiddlers connects the 3rd, 4th, and 5th eighth notes, typically on an up bow. If you do this, with the initial slur, it starts to form a sort of shuffle pattern:
up on E2
down on B
up slur on EdE
down on B
up on E (which can be continued across the bar onto the next note)
You can make a nice repeating exercise out of it, for learning purposes, by repeating the "up-down-slur three up-down-up slur onto the next quarter note" on the following notes:
|:E2 BE dEBE|F2 AF BFAF:|
(for the sake of clarity, that's:
up on E2
down on B
up on EdE
down on B
up on EF2
down on A
up on FBF
down on A
up on FE2
and so on.)
I learned this bowing pattern from the playing of Kevin Burke, but lots of other fiddlers use it--in fact, it's a staple of most players' reels. Of course, if you overuse it, your playing will sound, at best, rhythmically relentless, at worst, predictably boring. But it works very well at all speeds, captures the whole phrase in a single thought (which can come in handy at high speeds) and when done properly, gives great lift to the phrase.
Now - I don't consciously think about this pattern when I'm in the thrall of playing a session or ceili, but I did have to consciously learn it when I was first starting out on fiddle. And it helped to overdo it at first, to drum it into my bow hand. The crux of the pattern is a little dip you do with your index finger to catch that "d" or whatever the middle note is on the 3-note up slur. Your forearm stays on the plane it holds to bow on the lower of the two strings, and you nick the upper note by nothing more than a dip of the fingers.
Obviously there are other ways of slurring this same motif, but this particular pattern helps to put the emphasis and timing in the right places, and it's used by nearly all of the top players (somewhat more heavily among Sligo stylists, but I've heard it in everyone from Bobby Casey to Paul O'Shaughnessy, Tommy Peoples' to Matt Cranitch).
And as a teacher, it's one of the most common requests I hear: "How do you get the timing of that phrase so crisp?"
I'd argue that knowing this pattern will improve your timing on such phrases no matter how you bow them, even with all single bow strokes. It's worked that way for me and many people I've taught.
I'd also argue that for most of us mortals, it's important to spend some time thinking about your bowing. Brian Conway likes to point out that if you don't know what your bow hand is doing, you're probably not able to slur precisely when and where your ear tells you to. His point is that where you slur is a *choice,* not fate, and being aware of all your choices opens up more creative and expressive possibilities. I've heard the same kind of statements about being aware of your bowing choices from Burke, Sean Smyth, Cait Reed, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, and a host of other good fiddlers. I can't understand why I'd disagree with them. And it *is* possible, with years of playing, to play at typical session tempo and consciously choose when to slur and when not to. Whether the bow is going up or down doesn't matter so much, but choosing when to slur, when to lean on the hair and when to back off, when to add or omit other nuances--this is what it takes to play by the seat of your pants, in the moment, expressively.
Finally, there may be some good players who've never given an ounce of thought to any of this (though I have yet to meet one), but understanding bowing in detail is critical for *teachers.* You can't show a learner all the possibilities unless you've explored them yourself and actually thought about and articulated what you're doing.
No offense to Jim (his web videos are well done and should be helpful to many), but the way he's plkaying the opening phrase to In the Tap Room on the above-linked video is different than the motif I've been talking about here, and the specific bowing does not apply. Of course, that's one of the options--play different melodic line and change your bowing.
So instead of:
|E2 BE dEBE|
Jim is playing:
|E2 Bc d~B3|dBAF
(up on E2, down on B, up on cd~B3, down on d, up on B, down on A, up on F, and so on)
It's a common way to phrase the opening bar of the tune. So is:
Just for the sake of giving another perspective. I have learned my bowing by discecting particular tunes, or by learning tunes from particular people.
For instance, I was heavily influenced or impressed by the playing of Fred Finn. His bowing was amazingly fluid and wonderful. Luckily, I had a tape of the day that I met him and learned a few tunes off of the tape. I concentrated on the passages where I would naturally have trouble getting the bowing to my liking. Then I tried to transfer what I learned to other tunes.
I think that this is basically the same process, but perhaps less analytical. I was probably attempting to learn a pattern from his playing, but I was not consciously analyzing the bow strokes overall. (Thinking about it, I probably was analyzing the slurs.)
So, when I was teaching an adult student recently, I selected particular tunes to teach her the type of bowing that I wanted to hear. The tune would force her to confront a bowing challenge, or would force me to help her concentrate on certain passages and work with her on those.
Yeah, what they said. Muscle memory doesn't mean stagnation, but if you've never moved in certain ways before, it'll probably be uncomfortable the first few (hundred) times you try it. I've returned to stepdancing classes after more than a year off from taking my own classes and only teaching. I know all about this at the moment, in some intensely personal ways... ;)
Jode, I learned some of my early bowing stuff from Kevin Burke, also known for a fluid (though highly rhythmic) style. I *still* learn stuff off the tape of my first lesson with him. Back then (25 years ago), Kevin preferred to demonstrate everything rather than attempt to articulate it. So it sounds like you and I learned along similar paths.
Brian Conway (and some others) have a markedly more analytical approach (although Kevin will now talk circles around what he's doing while he demonstrates it). I've found it helps me to have both ways (and some in between) at hand so I can respond best to each student's learning style. But I'd also say that far more people need this stuff broken down in detail than get it through simple exposure and osmosis. At least the ones who ask for lessons--the people who just soak it up don't need lessons.
With the specific motif we've been hammering on here, my experience is that most fiddlers who don't use the "pattern" I've described above end up playing it with all single bows, all the time. Which may not be a pattern as such, but it can be just as predictable and boring.
Cool Will. I am looking forward to playing some tunes together some day. Of course, I was also very influenced by Kevin Burke, especially in combination with Jackie Daly.
I will try these patterns at some point, in case the come in useful for instruction purposes.
Jay Ungar says he never seems to finish bowing a tune in the same direction each time and thinks it might be a shortcoming. Well, he still sounds sweet.
Yep, that's a familiar feeling--"How'd I get here? And how do I get where I want to go now that I'm here?"
Reminds me of a Johnny Cunningham solo concert where he stopped in mid flight on a set of reels, looking stunned. He looked at us in the audience and said, "Well that's never happened before--my bow wasn't going the right direction. Not that there is a right direction." And he slid back into the tune and carried on.
And Sean Smyth said once that the sign of competence in a fiddler is the ability to bow yourself into a corner--and back out again.
Lol, me too. I find that corners are easier to slip out of if you lubricate them with several dark, malty beverages....
Speaking of which: this bowing pattern for the opening of In the Tap Room and similar phrases presents a "corner" of its own. I first learned it starting on an up bow, but soon found myself coming around to it on a down bow. For me, it often works out this way:
down on E2 B
up on EdE
down on B
up on E
So I slur down across the first string change, then slur up across the next string changes, just as in the "original" pattern.
Of course it also helps to bow this every other which way, inside out, as well as exploring variations for the same measure, so you have any number of options when that phrase comes up.
All of which serves as an example of how a bowing "pattern" need not impose a rigid approach on your playing--it's just one of many possibilities. The more of these you're familiar with, the more options you have, and the more likely you'll notice it when you stumble on yet another way to play.
More on bowing
More on bowing
SO I HAVE BECOME COMFORTABLE THE |DDD UUU DU| BOWING BUT ONE THING ISN'T RIGHT. SAY FOR EXAMPLE THAT I WAS PLAYING "IN THE TAP ROOM". THE FIRST MEASURE EBEDE. MY PROBLEM IS THAT I CAN'T MAKE THE B AND D STICK OUT ENOUGH. OBVIOUSLY THIS IS PROBABLY DUE TO LACK OF EXPERIENCE BUT IS THERE ANY TRICKS ON MAKING THIS EASIER.
AND HOW ELSE CAN I BOW THIS LIKE JIGS AND HORNPIPE. KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM DOING THIS TO GET THE GENERAL IDEA BUT ONCE I UNDERSTAND, I WILL NOT STICK TO A PARTICULAR SET OF BOWINGS. I WANT TO GET ALL THE TOOLS IN MY TOOL BELT.
AJ
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by berserker
Re: More on bowing
Ah, it's berserker -- our anonymous poster with no profile and can't figure out how to switch off his "caps" key. Uh... *ahem* HI BERSERKER, HOW'S THE FIDDLING COMING ALONG? *cough hack hack* Sorry, I can't yell like that, I just got over a bad cough.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
That's AJ, who is the son of long time poster cuchulain. Emily has played with them more than once.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Move the bow a bit faster and longer on the B and D, AJ. (You can also lean on it a bit, but it's not as good a technique, if you care about stuff like that.)
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
I'm sure he's a lovely boy, but how old do you have to be to learn about cap-lock keys? Has anyone sat him down and said, "Uh AJ... see this key... You might want to switch it off so you aren't typing with all caps -- it looks like you're yelling. This is a public message board, that means other people are using it too."
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
*sigh* Sure Jack, but you've hammered on him quite a few times about it. I dont think he's going to pay attention to you this time, either.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
He did it unthinkingly once, and after getting hammered on, decided to do it thinkingly. Ah, contrary youth. On the other hand, if readers of his posts can't determine through context clues that he isn't yelling, he can quickly recognize them as people who aren't thinking critically enough to offer sound advice.
His father
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: More on bowing
Ah his father defends him by making excuses for him... no wonder politeness isn't worth considering important. I give up.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Hello folks doesn't anyone find it a bit silly to be whinging on about capital vs lower case letters?? This isn't even real conversation, so how can one be yelling? In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Sheesh.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by meemtp
Re: More on bowing
Yup. But it *is* hard to read, all those caps, and so a bit annoying.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
That was to Paul, by the way.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Oh, I agree Zina, but I think some take it a bit seriously. Putting that into the context of something that's a part real converstion is a bit over the top. Caps aren't the only thing that can be hard to read on screen. I guess I was just saying that I find it silly to start casting personal aspersions on the basis of one's typesetting choice!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by meemtp
Re: More on bowing
You think that's hard to read, you should see his handwriting!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: More on bowing
Very true, meemtp. Although this is perhaps more "real conversation" than that. Communication is communication, although what communication is about isn't always how it reads or sounds. The rules of computer mediated communication aren't all that outre'.
You're totally right that casting personal aspersions on almost anything said civilly here is not on, though.
At any rate, have you tried the bowing bit, AJ? Hope it helps. (Sometimes it helps to think of the notes as "longer" than the others, even if they really aren't.)
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
LOL - Paul, do I *want* to see his handwriting? But who am I to talk. Even I can't read my own handwriting.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Mine's lousy too! Zina's advice about thinking of some notes as "longer" is good advice. Hard for me to describe, but certain notes can be longer, not necessarily slurred, and still stay within the rhythmic context. Again, hard for me to describe, but it works very well in places.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by meemtp
Re: More on bowing
It's just that us city folks, when we're online late at night, and trying to keep the noise down, and then someone comes shouting like they're on top of Everest, we get complaints from the neighbours.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by granama
Re: More on bowing
Well now, MG, you've been at that nutmeg, haven't you? *smirk*
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Sorry, but I never learnt this |DDD UUU DU| BOWING thing. Can someone explain it while we're on the topic. Is it done in jig time?
How does it relate to his notes: "THE FIRST MEASURE EBEDE"
String crossings there I presume.
Thanks,
Salty
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by saltcast
Re: More on bowing
Details at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4823, Salt!
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Since no one else seems willing to sit AJ down and suggest he might re-consider how his typing style is perceived by his fellow session.org members… I have compiled the following quotes and the URLs from whence they came as a learning resource for our fledgling message board contributor. (And anyone else who thinks this doesn’t matter)
Use upper and lower case only where appropriate. UPPERCASE may be used to HIGHLIGHT. Typing an entire message in uppercase is considered equivalent to shouting and is annoying.
http://www.cyber-sierra.com/workshops/99workshops/email.htm
Do not type in all uppercase as it comes across as if you are YELLING.
http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/n/netiquit.htm
DO NOT TYPE IN ALL UPPERCASE. Uppercase implies that you are SHOUTING.
http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=netiquette
Don't shout. Don't use all capital letters, (UPPERCASE) or overdo punctuation!!!!!!. See the example below. This common practice is the on-line equivalent of shouting. Its considered by many to be very rude. If you must use UPPERCASE, use it very sparingly and only to emphasize a particularly important point. Ask yourself, "if I was talking to the recipient face to face, would I be raising my voice to them?"
http://www.mccia.org/About/Netiquette.htm
Don’t type your message in ALL UPPERCASE - it’s extremely difficult to read and considered shouting. (Although a short stretch of uppercase may serve to emphasize a point heavily). Try to break your message into logical paragraphs and restrict your sentences to sensible lengths.
http://www.czechheritage.org/netiquette_tips.html
DON'T SHOUT--unless you really mean it. The use of all uppercase letters is considered shouting, and therefore rude. Part of the problem with all caps is that it is harder to read than mixed case. The other problem is that since facial expression and tone of voice are missing from electronic communication, some way to express strong opinions (both positive and negative) is needed, so ALL CAPS has been designated. Additionally, the use of *'s can indicate *emphasis* and _'s can mean _underlined_.
http://www.hfac.uh.edu/mcl/karima/courses/fall99/6398/netiquette.htm
I could have kept going, but I’m hoping you got the point.
Thanks, in advance, for your consideration.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
The first time I saw Kevin Burke play was on an early tour with Michael O’Domhngbhjailldh, and I remember being shocked that he played with lots of long bow strokes. But every time I’ve seen him since then, he’s bowed more as I expected, with a “normal” mix of slurs and strokes. I don’t remember it sounding any different. He seems to be able to make the rhythm happen no matter how the bow is travelling.
Some Cajun fiddlers play the shuffle so the emphasis is on the upstroke. I tried it and nearly put my eye out.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: More on bowing
Yeah, Bob, somewhere in the archives, (I think it was) Will has a story of Kevin Burke showing him a way to bow a tune, and then doing the whole thing backwards from the way he'd just showed him to demonstrate that it can still sound the same. ;)
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
I sure got the point, Jack. I see I've been a laissez-faire parent, so I'm moving cyber-manners to the top of my to-do list. As for AJ, I'm sure he will be greatly influenced by the weight of your research -- as any teenager would -- into doing the right thing from now on.
Zina, thanks on AJ's behalf for the suggestion. He appears to have posted his question late last night or this morning before school, so I'm sure he hasn't had a chance to try your suggestions yet.
I'm a non-fiddler, so forgive the ignorance of this question, but could the same thing (bringing out those couple of notes) be achieved by shortening, rather than lengthening them? In other words, to emphasize them by trying to articulate them? Or can't that really be done in the bowing configuration he describes?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: More on bowing
Hmmm. I suppose if you leaned on them at the same time you shortened them, Paul, they might, but I suspect the tendency to then rush the note/tempo would be almost impossible not to fall into, at least for a fiddler who isn't fairly expert. (I'm basing this on trying to imagine what would happen to me if I tried it, since I fall into that category.)
I'd say to have him try giving the note the very longest length of bow he can and still stay in tempo is still probably my best piece of advice on that one...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Actually, from a completely different perspective, I never read posts in caps because I just automatically assume they are going to be dumb questions from barely literate people and not worth my time. I know that's a pretty harsh and sweeping generalization, but I really had to think about it before I realized that's how I feel. I guess I'm a literacy snob. Even so, I did take the time to read through AJ's post the three or four times it took me to figure out what he was talking about (I'm telling you, for some reason the caps make it really tough for me!) but I'm afraid I don't have an easy answer.
If you've decided that particular bowing pattern is what you want to work on, you could try doing it really slowly, and playing with the pressure, bow length, etc (as Zina is saying) until the note sounds the way you want it to sound. Try moving the same crossing pattern to different strings and using different fingers to help dislodge any possible blocks you might have about this technique.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
E2 BE dE?
Lean the bow on the beats (B and d) and lightly brush the bow against the E's. I don't have my fiddle with me right now so I can't say if that's what I do or not....
Il'l add some more stuff when I get home t'nicht.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: More on bowing
ANCIENTGREEKWASWRITTENINCAPITALSWITHOUTWORDSPACINGPARAGRAPHSORPUNCTUATIONTHEYGOTBY
Trevor
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: More on bowing
WELLWHYDOYOUTHINKNOBODYSPEAKSANCIENTGREEKANYMORE
:P
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
ALLTHATYELLINGWITHOUTBREATHINGMUSTHAVEKILLEDTHEMALLWITHSTRESSRELATEDILLNESSES
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
I don't think there's any Ancient Greeks on the session.org -- just Ancient Geeks.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
There, there, Jim, calm down now. I think he means me. I can take it (smiling bravely).
Trevor
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: More on bowing
I am not a Geek. I only look like a Geek, and I can talk in Geek some. But I'll admit to the ancient.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
You're all Geek to me.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
I can out-geek you any day jim!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Hey, this isn't Ostrichfeathers speaking here. I'm a friend and fiddler posting under her name. About the bowing thing, if you're talking about bowing the first group of notes from this tune DDDUUUDU, with the first note of the tune being a quarter note, say with the tune Drowsy Maggie, I am very confident that you did in fact remember what James Kelly taught you wrong. I highly recommend DDUUDDUD; this also leaves you on a down bow for the first note of the next measure, which will give it a slight accent. Another good option is DDUUUDUD. I know James would agree, because he uses these bowing patterns in his playing. These two bowing patterns can always be used successfully for this kind of pattern of notes, where every other note is the same note (Morning Dew, Flowers of Redhill, Glass of Beer, etc). The B and D will stick out much better with this bowing. Good luck!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by ostrichfeathers
Re: More on bowing
Bowing is very simple; if you find yourself at one end of the bow, change direction. It doesn't matter what you do as long as the music "sounds right". Contrariwise, If you don't know what "sounds right" it doesn't really matter what you do with the bow. Is that clear?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Wuhoo
Re: More on bowing
LOL -- nice one, Orson...
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Wow you guys. thanks for a snowy night of entertaining rants on bowing. I guess I'll go with Orson's approach. I am plowing my way through any tune I can learn and the bowing is my last concern. How about "if it feels" right? That's how I decide, until I'm tired of the feel of it and then I am challenged to approach the whole set up of the tune differently and try some other bowing. Does this make sense to all of you "ancient" fiddler geeks (affectionately put) OR AM I REALLY OFF KEEL HERE?
snowy blessings, saille fearn aka mary anna
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Saille Fearn
Re: More on bowing
Saille/Mary Anna ... see the "Skipping Notes" discussion
Ancient Fiddler Geek.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Wuhoo
Re: More on bowing
thanks AFG, I'll check out that discussion for alternate realities.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Saille Fearn
Re: More on bowing
For the phrase |E2 BE dEBE|, one way I would bow it is to start the E2 on an up bow, catch the first B on a down bow, then slur up across EdE, down on the next B, and up on the last E.
The trick to getting the EdE to work on an up bow is that you just nod your index finger down to catch the d--in other words, your forearm stays where it is (on the "third string plane"), and you dip the bow for just a nanosecond to the second string for the high d, and come back to the E on the third string, all while keeping a nice steady flow to the single up-bow stroke.
Not that this is the only way to bow such a phrase, but it *is* one of the more common approaches in Irish music, for a very common string crossing phrase.
AJ, sorry for the delay, but I have the hard copy bowing ideas in hand and will mail them to you tomorrow.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More on bowing
Fiddler here again. I assume the post by Orson was a joke. If so, it is very funny! Using good slurring is a very important part of playing the tune with good rhythm, because the slurring creates rhythmic differences. You wouldn't find any of the fiddle greats saying it doesn't matter how you slur, and though there is a wide range of different styles of slurring that are great, there are definitely some guidelines that should be followed and are followed by the masters. For an extreme example, they would never slur from one end of the bow to another. In jigs, they would never slur every three notes together just because jigs are felt in groups of three or six notes. They would never slur every four notes together in a reel, even if it felt physically comfortable, because it creates an undesirable rhythmic effect. Liz Carroll pointed out to me that she rarely slurs reels in groups of two notes.
It can be hard to define in words how to slur tunes, partly because there are many different ways to slur them that sound great. There are also many ways to slur them that sound pretty bad, especially to a good fiddler. It all depends on how serious you are about getting good. If you just want to learn lots of tunes and play at sessions or whatever, and you are enjoying it, then keep it up and don't worry about how you slur. If you are concerned about sounding better, but you're not sure how to, slurring is a huge part of playing well. Seek the advice of great fiddlers. Go to their workshops, and get a private lesson whenever possible.
There was another discussion that mentioned that Kevin Burke demonstrated that playing a tune without any slurs at all sounds just as good as with slurs. First of all, of course a player of his ability could play that way and still make it sound pretty good. But he would never really play that way, and if he played that way at a concert, and Liz Carroll or Frankie Gavin were in the audience, I'm sure they would wonder "what on Earth is he doing; no slurs? That sounds bad!".
Listening to great recordings will help, but it can be difficult for even upper intermediate players to tell exactly what slurring is being used in a recording; a teacher critiquing your slurring is optimal. Hope this helps. Don't get overwhelmed! If you really want to get the hang of good slurring, I know you can do it. It will make you sound much better.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by ostrichfeathers
Re: More on bowing
Sorry about the long rant!
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by ostrichfeathers
Re: More on bowing
O_O
I regard that with supreme suspicion....
...as I do with much, much else, so don't feel picked upon. ;)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: More on bowing
Suspicion is good. Alot of people out there say crazy things, especially on the internet, so it's good not to trust everything you read. I also have noticed that many of the masters do not themselves know how to describe the patterns of slurring that they use; many simply do it without knowing what they're doing (they just know what sounds good). Therefore it is possible that a small number of them might even say that it doesn't matter how you slur (although I've never heard this) even though there are conventions that they are following. I have heard James Kelly, Seamus Connolly, Liz Carroll, Brian Conway, and Matt Cranitch discuss the do's and don'ts of slurring. Again, there are many different slurrings that sound good, but there are definitely some ways of slurring that are less desireable to the general consensus of good fiddlers. I have studied the slurring on recordings of several greats and discovered that there are definitely some slurring patterns that they do not incorporate, and there are many slurring patterns that they tend to have in common.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by ostrichfeathers
Re: More on bowing
Hey FOOF
Only my first sentence was a joke. I think it's too easy for people to obsess about bowing to the detriment of the way they play. I'm familiar with the work of several fiddle teachers (no names, no pack drill), and (harsh generalisation) it seems the ones who focus on explicit bowing instructions produce less fluent, rounded players. I think I'm with Kevin Burke on this topic ... not that I'm claiming to have met him, oh no. But our DOG ran THROUGH his BACK yard.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Wuhoo
Re: More on bowing
I agree that teachers should not over-emphasize bowing, especially if the student has a very hard time following specific slurrings, if it gets to the point where they're neglecting other aspects of playing. It's interesting to note that Kevin Burke has a VERY unique way of slurring. There are several conventions he does not follow. If the student has an easy enough time picking up slurring though, then it's worth working on because it makes it sound better. But again, if to you're ears it makes no difference how you slur, then why bother.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by ostrichfeathers
Re: More on bowing
Well, all things in moderation, including moderation. Kevin Burke is quite capable of picking apart bowing technique when he's in the mood (which, apparently, isn't terribly often), and all. Let's face it, if you don't pay *any* attention to bowing at all, you're not going to sound very good on that fiddle. But you can also take it to the other extreme and pay so much attention to it that everything else suffers.
It's good to think about things like bowing and to try things out, there's nothing wrong with it. You'll note that AJ put a disclaimer in when he first posted, trying to forestall some of this old and familiar argument. It sort of worked, but human nature is human nature. Even if he is willing to look rather illiterate to make his point (thanks, Kerri, because I never really thought about it before, but you're right), at least he cares enough about his fiddling to get every single tool he can get his paws on into that tool kit. I totally respect that bit.
When that technique stuff all becomes second nature, then you *don't* have to think about it anymore. But until it is, you do. So for all of us less than stellar fiddlers, I'd remember that Orson has been playing for a little bit before stopping thinking about bowing at all. ;)
For what it's worth (not much, I realize), I think AJ's going about it the right way, even if the caps make it harder to read and he's being a little sh*t about it. *smirk*
Because I (and Will) already know how long AJ's been playing, who he is, and more or less what level he plays at, we *can* offer good and specific advice -- and in fact this is a continuation of an older thread (and btw, AJ, I'm impressed with your perseverence). There's nothing wrong with not having anything in one's bio, but neither is there anything wrong with having something there -- if I didn't already know AJ's situation, it would have helped to know something about how long he's been playing.
Can we *please* try not to swing from one side to the other? I know that's human nature, but...can we try?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
AJ, if you mean the "In the Tap Room" tunes on this site's tunes section, I've got a slow version of that on http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk
The tune is there somewhere, and when I get home I'll try find it and put the link on the site.
Jim
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: More on bowing
I don't endorse writing in all-caps either, but I'd also recommend being careful about making assumptions on the relationship between literacy and intelligence. I'll bet there's some old black sharecroppers from the pre-WWI days who could've told us all a thing or two about music as well as about life.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: More on bowing
Oh, I never assume literacy means intelligence. After all, look at politicians... ;)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
i'm not sure whether this is relevant to the question, but i'll say it anyway.
talking about jigs, not reels, a real breakthrough for me was when in a workshop where i took on board this kind of bowing pattern::
DUDDUD UDUUDU
it can give a really nice lift to a tune, kind of taking the momentum built up in one phrase and piling it onto the next. thinking about it, i think i tend to more
of the second bar kind (slurring on the up bow) than the first bar.
as i play more of a scottish style, i tend to play
more separate notes, but i imagine the basic principle might be the same in irish. to my shame i haven't waded into Prof. Harmon's tomes on the subject, but
i'd be surprised if this wasn't totally standard stuff.
(using my own slightly idiosyncratic capitalisation :-])
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by rog
Re: More on bowing
cuchulain, my association with caps, literacy and intelligence was unintentional, probably absorbed because in my experience, 9 out of 10 all caps posts are either irritating hit and runs or wind-ups. (Aj being the one in ten that has some other motive.)
Anyhow, a friend of mine has recently picked up the fiddle and is having a tough time with bowing. She is a little stuck on note-counting at the moment ("up-two-three-four-down-two-up-two) or something and it is having a negative impact on her playing. It struck me that since she has an excellent ear and good feeling for the music, what she ought to do is concentrate instead on the tune and which notes she wants to stand out, then build her bowing around that instead of trying to play all her tunes with the same pattern.
Note counting bow patterns is useful as a drill, (play five or ten tunes with *only* this pattern, then *only* that one and keep trying to think of new ones you've never tried before) but I don't see what purpose it would have as a finished product.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
I am fascinated by this. Do people really count the notes per bow stroke and stick to it throughout the tune? How do you do it? Like, right the pattern up on the chalk board and slowly read it off as you play?
AJ's question seems to point to a failing in the patterns. I don't know the tune to which he is referring, but if the pattern does not work, it does not work. So why stick rigidly when it does not work?
I shudder to think that I have a bowing pattern, which I probably do. I would prefer to think that the tune has more to do with the bowing than the fiddler does (within the framework of a regional style). But perhaps that is the same story, different perspective.
I do think about the bowing, but very rarely do I think about which direction the bow is going, and I do not think I have ever consciously thought about a pattern.
A few questions back to AJ or other beginners: have the bowing patterns been a useful tool for you? Do you feel at all constricted by the patterns? And how do you feel about the idividuality of your playing as a result?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
You'll note that AJ mentions that "KEEP IN MIND THAT I AM DOING THIS TO GET THE GENERAL IDEA BUT ONCE I UNDERSTAND, I WILL NOT STICK TO A PARTICULAR SET OF BOWINGS. I WANT TO GET ALL THE TOOLS IN MY TOOL BELT."
We went through this the first time, which is likely why he put that disclaimer in there in the first place. No, no one is saying that you should always use a pattern or that the patterns will always work for every tune, but that the use of patterns to get the idea and give the muscle memory something to pattern off of is a useful tool.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Hey Zina, don't you know it's bad netiquette to use all upper case like that?
Made-ja-look hahahahahahaha *snicker snicker*
(If anyone doesn't realize I was just joking around with Zina -- take your ™Prozak)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Damn, Jack beat me to it. I was gonna say, "Jeez, Zina, you don't have to shout!"
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by cuchulain54
Re: More on bowing
I was quoting Howard Dean. Pbbbbtthhhhhht! :p
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Jode, yes I've found patterns useful, and no, I don't feel constricted by them. The rare times I do any useful practicing I sometimes pick a relatively simple pattern and play a whole tune with it to shake up my habitual way of playing it. I usually pick something that causes me to slur through the first beat.
It's helpful because it helps dislodge me from ruts acquired with tunes I learned when I really really really stunk (as opposed to just being suspiciously aromatic), hear the tune in a whole new way, and play with ornamentation where I would otherwise have used a change in bow direction.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
hahahahaha
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Sorry Kerri, I wasn't laughing at what you said. The danger of posting "hahahahaha" -- someone will post between you and who you were laughing with.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
*smirk* Serves you right.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Pbbbbtthhhhhht!
(meant for Zina)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Darn, and here I thought I'd accidentally said something clever.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
LOL -- Ker, the day you don't come up with something clever is the day that the world ends. Or something like that. The leaky vessel is probably my very favorite so far, though, although you've certainly come up with some good'uns.
*thumbing nose at Jack behind Kerri's back*
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
[CENSORED]
Don't ask... but it had something to do with Kerri's leak.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
You wish, dude. Now behave, I have to go teach class. Sit, Jack. Stay. Down. Stay. Goooood boy.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Probably should have read - [CENSORED]
hahahaha
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Thanks Kerri for taking my questions at face value. Zina, I was not putting AJ down for doing this, or anyone else. I hope he will also take my questions at face value and answer them honestly.
What I am wondering about Zina, is if you put a pattern into your "muscle memory", does that just create a new rut?
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
I know you're talking to Zina, but I'm going to butt in:
I change the chosen bowing pattern every time I do this exercise. Ergo, no rut.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
An untrained brain is perhaps a little like a big flat expanse of deep, soft snow. The first time you walk through it (practice), it's a great struggle. If you carry on walking the same way, you'll make a rut. Leaving the rut is hard, but if you try a bit more you can make another rut. After a while you might be able to wear down whole areas where you can wander easily whereever you like... freedom!
When i'm practising, I try to find those areas that I haven't yet "trodden down" - it's good when it feels difficult, 'cos it means I'm creating freedom for myself in the future.
Following exercises is a good way to try and leave the ruts: allowing something external to influence the direction you're going, rather than doing what comes naturally, which will tend to follow an existing rut.
This is why it's just silly to say this music is "easy" - any music is exactly as hard as you want to make it - as long as you can still find a challenge there.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by rog
Re: More on bowing
Well, I was sorta addressing both of you! Thanks! I may try it out myself, although it doesn't sound like a tool that would necessarily suit me. But since I am teaching now, maybe it would be useful to some of my students.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Heh. I think you should try it yourself before you start teaching it to your students. It's likely you're a better teacher than I am. My advice is all purely theoretical. ;^)
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
That's very true, rog, when you say the brain is "like a big flat expanse of deep, soft snow." The problem is with my brain is that it never stops snowing.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
And if my brain is a big expanse of snow, that must be why my fingers get stiff and lifeless when I think about the music too much while playing.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Answering the original question from Mr AJ of CAPITOL HILL!!
, I've put some samples up on my site.
1st bars of 'Tap Room' reel time (accenting E,B,D notes)
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/taproomsample01.wmv
Jig time, single bows only, normal / slow speed :
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/jigsinglebows01.wmv
Jig time, slurred notes, normal / slow speed :
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/jigslurredbows01.wmv
...and demonstrating the difference, normal speed :
http://www.worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/video/jigbowscontrast01.wmv
Hope this helps.
Jim
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: More on bowing
Kerri, I definitely will try it before offering up as a suggested tool! Yeeeeehaaaagh!!! Round the house and mind the dresser.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Jim...I think you should just hook up with Jeremy and get a webcam interface for the yellow board here. That way, you can jump on those demonstrations reel time.
# Posted on January 20th 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Warning: long opinionated post.
In this music, on fiddle, there are musical phrases that create possible patterns of fingerings and string crossings and bowings. An example is the phrase from In the Tap Room:
|E2 BE dEBE|
This is a very common motif in Irish reels:
|G2 BG dGBG|
|G2 BG cGBG|
|F2 AF BFAF|
|c2 ec gcec|
...and so on.
Obviously, you can bow it all single strokes, and you can start either on an up bow or a down bow.
And you can introduce slurs. One common way of adding slurs is to come into that first quarter note from the pick-up note, or the last note of the previous bar. You can do this initial slur either on an up bow or a down bow.
Another very common slur among Irish fiddlers connects the 3rd, 4th, and 5th eighth notes, typically on an up bow. If you do this, with the initial slur, it starts to form a sort of shuffle pattern:
up on E2
down on B
up slur on EdE
down on B
up on E (which can be continued across the bar onto the next note)
You can make a nice repeating exercise out of it, for learning purposes, by repeating the "up-down-slur three up-down-up slur onto the next quarter note" on the following notes:
|:E2 BE dEBE|F2 AF BFAF:|
(for the sake of clarity, that's:
up on E2
down on B
up on EdE
down on B
up on EF2
down on A
up on FBF
down on A
up on FE2
and so on.)
I learned this bowing pattern from the playing of Kevin Burke, but lots of other fiddlers use it--in fact, it's a staple of most players' reels. Of course, if you overuse it, your playing will sound, at best, rhythmically relentless, at worst, predictably boring. But it works very well at all speeds, captures the whole phrase in a single thought (which can come in handy at high speeds) and when done properly, gives great lift to the phrase.
Now - I don't consciously think about this pattern when I'm in the thrall of playing a session or ceili, but I did have to consciously learn it when I was first starting out on fiddle. And it helped to overdo it at first, to drum it into my bow hand. The crux of the pattern is a little dip you do with your index finger to catch that "d" or whatever the middle note is on the 3-note up slur. Your forearm stays on the plane it holds to bow on the lower of the two strings, and you nick the upper note by nothing more than a dip of the fingers.
Obviously there are other ways of slurring this same motif, but this particular pattern helps to put the emphasis and timing in the right places, and it's used by nearly all of the top players (somewhat more heavily among Sligo stylists, but I've heard it in everyone from Bobby Casey to Paul O'Shaughnessy, Tommy Peoples' to Matt Cranitch).
And as a teacher, it's one of the most common requests I hear: "How do you get the timing of that phrase so crisp?"
I'd argue that knowing this pattern will improve your timing on such phrases no matter how you bow them, even with all single bow strokes. It's worked that way for me and many people I've taught.
I'd also argue that for most of us mortals, it's important to spend some time thinking about your bowing. Brian Conway likes to point out that if you don't know what your bow hand is doing, you're probably not able to slur precisely when and where your ear tells you to. His point is that where you slur is a *choice,* not fate, and being aware of all your choices opens up more creative and expressive possibilities. I've heard the same kind of statements about being aware of your bowing choices from Burke, Sean Smyth, Cait Reed, Martin Hayes, Liz Carroll, and a host of other good fiddlers. I can't understand why I'd disagree with them. And it *is* possible, with years of playing, to play at typical session tempo and consciously choose when to slur and when not to. Whether the bow is going up or down doesn't matter so much, but choosing when to slur, when to lean on the hair and when to back off, when to add or omit other nuances--this is what it takes to play by the seat of your pants, in the moment, expressively.
Finally, there may be some good players who've never given an ounce of thought to any of this (though I have yet to meet one), but understanding bowing in detail is critical for *teachers.* You can't show a learner all the possibilities unless you've explored them yourself and actually thought about and articulated what you're doing.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More on bowing
Demonstration? I'm going to a demonstration today. An anti-inaugural demonstration that is.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Good on ya Jack. Holler loud and long. What's the *opposite* of Yeehaw?
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
Good God, Will! I write a little quip to follow Jode's and I get buried in your avalanche of fiddle bowing stuff. Sheesh!
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
Waheey?
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: More on bowing
No offense to Jim (his web videos are well done and should be helpful to many), but the way he's plkaying the opening phrase to In the Tap Room on the above-linked video is different than the motif I've been talking about here, and the specific bowing does not apply. Of course, that's one of the options--play different melodic line and change your bowing.
So instead of:
|E2 BE dEBE|
Jim is playing:
|E2 Bc d~B3|dBAF
(up on E2, down on B, up on cd~B3, down on d, up on B, down on A, up on F, and so on)
It's a common way to phrase the opening bar of the tune. So is:
|E2 B/B/c d2 Bc|dBAF...
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More on bowing
Good point Will...there are just *so*many ways to bow a phrase!
Jim
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: More on bowing
Just for the sake of giving another perspective. I have learned my bowing by discecting particular tunes, or by learning tunes from particular people.
For instance, I was heavily influenced or impressed by the playing of Fred Finn. His bowing was amazingly fluid and wonderful. Luckily, I had a tape of the day that I met him and learned a few tunes off of the tape. I concentrated on the passages where I would naturally have trouble getting the bowing to my liking. Then I tried to transfer what I learned to other tunes.
I think that this is basically the same process, but perhaps less analytical. I was probably attempting to learn a pattern from his playing, but I was not consciously analyzing the bow strokes overall. (Thinking about it, I probably was analyzing the slurs.)
So, when I was teaching an adult student recently, I selected particular tunes to teach her the type of bowing that I wanted to hear. The tune would force her to confront a bowing challenge, or would force me to help her concentrate on certain passages and work with her on those.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Waheeey. I think I've heard that one in the sweat lodge a few times. Now I finally understand the lyrics to al those great songs...
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
all.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
Yeah, what they said.
Muscle memory doesn't mean stagnation, but if you've never moved in certain ways before, it'll probably be uncomfortable the first few (hundred) times you try it. I've returned to stepdancing classes after more than a year off from taking my own classes and only teaching. I know all about this at the moment, in some intensely personal ways... ;)
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: More on bowing
Muscle memory = nostalgia for the physique I had before I became so fond of guinness.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: More on bowing
Jode, I learned some of my early bowing stuff from Kevin Burke, also known for a fluid (though highly rhythmic) style. I *still* learn stuff off the tape of my first lesson with him. Back then (25 years ago), Kevin preferred to demonstrate everything rather than attempt to articulate it. So it sounds like you and I learned along similar paths.
Brian Conway (and some others) have a markedly more analytical approach (although Kevin will now talk circles around what he's doing while he demonstrates it). I've found it helps me to have both ways (and some in between) at hand so I can respond best to each student's learning style. But I'd also say that far more people need this stuff broken down in detail than get it through simple exposure and osmosis. At least the ones who ask for lessons--the people who just soak it up don't need lessons.
With the specific motif we've been hammering on here, my experience is that most fiddlers who don't use the "pattern" I've described above end up playing it with all single bows, all the time. Which may not be a pattern as such, but it can be just as predictable and boring.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More on bowing
Cool Will. I am looking forward to playing some tunes together some day. Of course, I was also very influenced by Kevin Burke, especially in combination with Jackie Daly.
I will try these patterns at some point, in case the come in useful for instruction purposes.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Jode
Re: More on bowing
Jay Ungar says he never seems to finish bowing a tune in the same direction each time and thinks it might be a shortcoming. Well, he still sounds sweet.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Cath
Re: More on bowing
Yep, that's a familiar feeling--"How'd I get here? And how do I get where I want to go now that I'm here?"
Reminds me of a Johnny Cunningham solo concert where he stopped in mid flight on a set of reels, looking stunned. He looked at us in the audience and said, "Well that's never happened before--my bow wasn't going the right direction. Not that there is a right direction." And he slid back into the tune and carried on.
And Sean Smyth said once that the sign of competence in a fiddler is the ability to bow yourself into a corner--and back out again.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Will CPT
Re: More on bowing
I can do the first bit.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Wuhoo
Re: More on bowing
Lol, me too. I find that corners are easier to slip out of if you lubricate them with several dark, malty beverages....
Speaking of which: this bowing pattern for the opening of In the Tap Room and similar phrases presents a "corner" of its own. I first learned it starting on an up bow, but soon found myself coming around to it on a down bow. For me, it often works out this way:
down on E2 B
up on EdE
down on B
up on E
So I slur down across the first string change, then slur up across the next string changes, just as in the "original" pattern.
Of course it also helps to bow this every other which way, inside out, as well as exploring variations for the same measure, so you have any number of options when that phrase comes up.
All of which serves as an example of how a bowing "pattern" need not impose a rigid approach on your playing--it's just one of many possibilities. The more of these you're familiar with, the more options you have, and the more likely you'll notice it when you stumble on yet another way to play.
# Posted on January 21st 2005 by Will CPT