hi folks... anybody could help me to understand how to get rid of annoying noises (like a wishtle) produced by fiddle particularly on A and E strings when moving the bow to other strings.?... It shouldn't be a tecnique caused as i have no problems on another fiddle... (the bridge shape is the same on both).... could be something related to strings or.... something about the resin? it is very disturbing and i have to find a way to solve this problem.... i could change fiddles but the one i'm using is defenetely better...thanks for your comments. massimo
Ah, different fiddle, different strings., slightly different feel, slightly different technique. It's always technique (even if there's something actually wrong with the fiddle, technique will play around it), although the issue may be so subtle it isn't conciously definable. It's a micro muscle thing. Do you drive standard? It's exactly the same thing as two different cars with two different clutches. When you switch you have to learn how to clutch all over again, because the feel and reaction is slightly different.
So you pick up your new fiddle, try to play it normally, just like you would the old one. . . .and the car judders, maybe stalls. On *this* fiddle you're back to being a bit of a novice and you'll have to learn not to make funny noises, just like you had to learn not to make funny noises when you first learned to play.
Here's what I'd do, but you probably aren't going to like it. . . practice. With a metronome. If you don't have a metronome go to www.metronomeonline.com. Set it to *60* (the primary function of a metronome when practicing isn't so much to get you up to speed, but rather to keep you from going too fast), pick a tune you really, really like (because you're going to be playing it a lot) and start playing, real slow (obviously) and with concentration on doing everything just right. You'll probably get no noises, or they'll go away in just a few minutes.
Now reset the metronome to 63 (assuming the usual settings on your metronome, that'll be up one click) . Do it again.
Rinse and repeat.
By the time you work your way up to speed (in, say, an hour or two) I'll bet the noises have gone away, and stay away. Congratulations, you've just learned to fiddle all over again, only with your new one.
Do you have a different type of strings on the other fiddle? That can do it. Different strings also require adjustment. The same strings can behave differently on another instrument too. Sometimes alternate windings can help too. Plain steel E strings are squeaky on some instruments. Depending on what strings you're using, you could experiment with a wound or gold-plated E. On my good fiddle I use Evah Pirazzis with a gold E. It just likes the gold one better. They're tempermental beasts with their own individual personalities.
Thanks for the advice. I will practice slowly... i'm playing the "noisy " fiddle much longer than the other one,so .. by now i should have been confident with the new car. On both fiddles i have Tomastick (or whatever is written) Dominant strings. I also changed them (a Daddario set), but... no improvements. I also changed bows. According to process of elimination... now remains just to change.......the fiddler.
". . .now remains just to change.......the fiddler."
Why, oh why, is that always the last desperate act that people perform? : )
I should have attached a caveat to my advice. I'm used to practicing like this. If you're not it's going to take you some time a) to get used to playing with a metronome. Your sense of rhythm may, distressingly, turn out not to be quite what you thought it was, and b) if you only play at tempo you'll find you simply don't know how to play slowly. It may take you an hour or two just to learn how to do that alone. You may even be shocked to learn that you don't even know a tune you've been playing for ages and need to refer to notation a bit to learn what the notes are. Your fingers know how to move at tempo, but *you* don't actually know what the notes are.
In short, you're going to have to practice how to practice before you can practice.
Worst comes to worst I guarandamntee you'll end up playing that tune better than you ever have before. If you're practicing *properly* it's never wasted time.
Just remember the improvement will come largely the day (and in the days) *after* you practice. When you are engaged in practicing you are training short term structures of the brain and nervous system. Between practices the brain sorts it all out into long term structures.
Have patience with yourself, although that seems to be one of the hardest things to do.
thanks KFG.... your advice is great...shows that the border between fiddling and philosophy is very thin. I won't change fiddlers. i will have the old one practicing.
I have found that if you have the little plastic tube-things on the A and E string, that are there to stop the string from cutting into the bridge, they can buzz. Another possibilty is if you have fine tuners and they are rattling.
Remember that with a fiddle some noises can be heard right under the ear that can hardly or not be heard only a few metres away. Trevor wrote interesting stuff about this in the past.
If it's more than just subtle noises you hear it's another story.
This reminds me of a problem I've been having with my fiddle (or my fiddling), though it's a different kinda thing. When I pull the bow down from the A to the E string, the sound I get from the E string is only a very high harmonic, no fundamental tone at all. It happens nearly every time. If I start on the E string and bow down (or up), it plays just fine. It's just that one move that triggers it. Could this have something to do with that little rubber tubing thingy? If so, why only when I make that specific move?
No offence meant by the above - you wouldn't believe some of the noises that come out of my fiddle. Having been trying to play for about a year, I often find that I seem to get far more musical sounds out of someone else's fiddle - then there are fiddles which make me wish I had my own with me. But, in the hands of an experienced player, any of these fiddles will sound good. So my conclusion is, it must be technique. As KFG, you can search around for the right fiddle, bow, hair, strings, rosin, location etc. until you find the combination that works for you, but ultimately it would be far better to acquire the skills to play *any* fiddle with favourable results.
So, either get a new fiddler or become a better one yourself. Perhaps I should take a leaf out of my own book.
Bobhimself - could be too much rosin on the bow. When you move from the A to the E, try tilting the bow away from you. If it now sounds clean my guess is that it's rosin making the bow 'skate'.
I'm getting my bow re-haired for the first time soon. I've never done it before (been playing for about six years and no-one ever told me it needed to be done). I'm really excited - maybe I'll suddenly become a decent, like when I got a proper guitar and a proper bodhran...
But Kerri, if it has been 6 years, don't wash it!! Get it rehaired!!!
After it is rehaired, it may have a different feel, and you will have to get used to it again. However, your bowed triplets will be nicer and you will have a nicer overall sound.
I went through a period of that Bobhi, and I don't have little rubber thingies. How the bow attacks the string in the first micro second often dictates everything that happens after that, and the attack is going to be slightly different when changing strings, bowing up and bowing down, so it's pretty easy to have a problem with one specific move, and once a string starts vibrating in a harmonic it ain't gonna stop until you stop the string and start over.
When you're having a problem, isolate it. Sometimes that's hard. Problems can hide. In your case it's easy. So do the like the body builders do, because this is a muscle training issue, practice, in isolation, only that thing you wish to improve. Don't play a tune over and over and stumble over the part you're having trouble with. Most of that time is wasted, and does little or nothing to train the muscles to play the difficulty better. It just trains them to stumble when they get to that part of the tune and you end up practicing how to play it wrong. . .forever.
So, what you're going to do is *just* move back and forth from the A to the E string. Over and over again. Try to pay attention to how everything feels while you're doing it. When you get it right, try to recreate that same feel. Eventually you'll get it, and paying attention to the feel will help "lock" it into your nervous system.
This is also, by the way, how you should go about learning a tune. Most people avoid the difficult bits, forever if they can. They get intimidated by them. Exactly the wrong approach. You should make a practice of actively searching tunes for the difficult bits and start practicing there first, in *isolation.* Just the phrase that's going to give trouble. Super slow. At first with no tempo/rhythm at all. Just learn what notes you have to hit, and in what order. Then learn the rhythm without the instrument. Just tap it out on a desktop or something. When I say isolation, I mean isolation. Learn only one thing at a time. Then put the notes and rhythm together with a metronome set at something like 60.
And all the time just that one difficult phrase, over and over.
Then start working it up to speed 3 or 4 bps at a time. When you get it up to some speed you like, say 120, then start working on the rest of the tune, a phrase at a time, and bring it up to that speed. The metronome will keep you from speeding up on the easy bits to something faster than you can play the difficult bit. If that happens you'll stumble, and practice stumbling. Which be bad.
Never play a tune any faster than you can play the hardest part, because all you'll be doing is practicing to play it badly. Doing this is the reason so many people practice so long, so hard, and never seem to be able to improve. The more they play, the more they're actually learning to play badly.
If you want to play faster, isolate. If you want better intonation, isolate. If you want to play a particular bowing better, isolate. Always isolate and only practice the specific thing you want to improve.
Playing tunes isn't practice. Playing tunes is the pay off. The reward. What we do it all for. But playing tunes not only won't necessarily make you better at playing tunes, it may well make you worse.
6 years? If you're really playing, say a couple hours or more a day, 6 months is a bit more like it.
And if you're a cheapskate (like myself), remember, upgrading your bow when it's due for a rehairing is the same thing as getting a discount equal to the cost of a rehairing on your new bow.
"And if you're a cheapskate (like myself), remember, upgrading your bow when it's due for a rehairing is the same thing as getting a discount equal to the cost of a rehairing on your new bow"
Speaking of "isolate," I don't get what the metronome has to do with improving your tone and bow control.
I agree that the isolate idea can help some people improve--but to get rid of those extra bow noises, I'd ditch the metronome and concentrate on some long, steady bow strokes, starting in a comfortable spot on the hair and gradually lengthening the stroke till you're working it from frog to tip and back again. This may take some hours of dedicated effort before it feels solid, especially down by the frog.
And for Irish trad music, it also helps to isolate bow control and tone production on short bow strokes--half-inch or less up and down bows, driven from the fulcrum formed by index finger and thumb. Rest the hair on a string and without moving your forearm, draw the bow up and down, imagining a strong, clear tone, letting the weight of the bow itself do the work. Then do the same on each string. Finally, work on changing from one string to the next--here your forearm will move a bit to position your hand for playing each different string, but the bowing motion should still come from the index/thumb point. All while keeping your fingers, hand, wrist, and arm relaxed and loose.
I'd leave the metronome out of all this--at least in the beginning--because the idea is to focus on tone, not timing or rhythm. Once your tone is solid, then it might help to play to a metronome as a test of doing two things at once--producing good tone and playing in time.
I'd also emphasize that for good tone, you have to hear it in your head to really draw it out of the instrument. It's like having a goal to shoot for, instead of being resigned to whatever nosie comes out. Just as you hear pitch in your head and know whether you're sharp or flat or spot on, learn to hear tone in your head too. And learn to vary it, from whispery to loud and rough, to bell-like, to nasally, and so on. I find it's particularly useful in this music to aim for "pipey" tones and flute tones and box reed tones, etc., to emulate the other instruments. This can go a long way toward bringing variety to your fiddle's voice, and it will guide you to nuances in bow control you might otherwise not explore.
Also bear in mind that some fiddles--even good ones--produce more bow noise than others. You can't hear it from a few feet away, and sometimes you can soften it by changing strings or rosin. I don't like hearing a lot of bow noise in my own playing, and since I'm the one person who by definition has to listen to every noise my fiddle makes, I prefer a fiddle that sounds good right in my own ear as well as across the room. It's been my experience that Thomastik strings (Dominants and Infelds) also contribute to bow noise, although they can sound great on certain fiddles. Thomastik E strings in particular are well known for being raspy or squeaky.
Will, in your third paragraph there, are you saying that you should get the bow movement from your fingers? Or is the wrist or shoulder?
When my bowing gets sloppy, I do the following: play each open string, moving the bow as slowly and as smoothly as possible. This really forces you to examine your bowing, and to teach you to control your bow at the various points through which you move.
I had not heard that about Thomsastik strings before. What kind do you use Will? I have Infelds on mine now and like the sound of them. But I am always willing to try other strings...
Jode, what I meant by "driven from the fulcrum formed by the index finger and thumb" is that you can do short, relaxed but controlled bow strokes with no movement of the forearm or shoulder--it all comes from the index finger and thumb, with a loose wrist that acts mainly as a shock absorber for the changes in bow direction.
Winnowing out extra motion in our bow arms seems to be a lifelong pursuit. Brian Conway talks about keeping the motion "as close to the stick" as possible. Whether your pinky (4th finger) is on the stick or not, the movement of the bow is initiated and to a great deal controlled by the contact point of thumb and index. Experimenting with this has convinced me that the subtleties of bow pressure, slurring, and direction changes are best controlled at that point, rather than in the wrist or further up the arm. It's particularly useful in Clare and Sligo styles, where shifts in tone, and short swelling slurs play important roles in giving lift and expression to the tunes. It's also easier--once you've sweated bullets for a few thousand hours--to create *extremely relaxed* motions at that smaller scale. Which is what makes the music sound effortless.
Of course, your wrist and forearm do move--on longer bow strokes and string changes in particular. But an awful lot goes on just at the index and thumb. For example, bowed triplets don't get really crisp and clearly articulated until you focus the motion that close to the stick.
At least based on my anecdotal experience.
Jode, I use Pirastro Evah Pirazzi strings and have for over two years now. A little pricier than the Infelds, but I love their tone, and they last a long time. I even like how silky they feel under my fingers. Seems like everyone I've recommended them to falls in love with them. Fancy shops charge $60 and more for a set, but my local store sells them for $45 US, and I've seen them online for a simiar price.
Yup. Will had me try the Pirazzis, and I've been searching for strings I like better ever since, since they're awfully expensive. So far, nothing doing, the only thing I know is that I really HATED the Infeld Reds and Blues. I couldn't keep from squeaking on the E to save my life. I've tried the Corelli Crystals, and I thought they were okay but nothing to write home about.
I have to try the Pirazzis on this new fiddle, though, Will. Rock put new Dominants on them when I bought them. So I figure I'll wait til these play themselves out...
I have enjoyed the tone from the Dominants for years, and only recently tried the Infeld - they were on sale through Shar. Actually, I did not see a major improvement from the Dominants, so would probably go back there. I never buy the Dominant E. My brother turned me on to Goldbrokat Es and that is what I use. They are super cheap, but have a pretty sweet sound.
I have tried various Pirastro and Corelli strings, but did not like them.
The Pirazzis are better than the other Pirastro strings I've tried (although the Obligatos I used once were okay). But different fiddles seem to prefer different strings, and our ears have their proclivities as well. I really like the tone Liz and Yvonne Kane get, and they reportedly use Dominants.
I used to get a whistle sound--basically the note wouldn't sound when I changed bow to the E string, or it would make a little whistley noise.
I switched to the Wondertone E, and it stopped. I also practiced the change a lot, so I can't say which was the reason for my success. On the other strings I use helicores. I like them better than dominants, especially because of the tailpiece I am using with built-in fine tuners. (Before that I mostly used gut strings with an ordinary tailpiece).
Will, I will try the Pirazzis. I think the Obligatos were one of the ones I tried years ago before settling on Dominants. Do you use their E as well?
Concerning the bowing topic, awhile back, when I examined my technique overall, my brother introduced me to Kato Havas. She is a classical player and instructor who became fascinated with the gypsy players in Hungary. Both because they get a wonderful tone and because they did not seem to have physical problems.
Following her advice, I concentrated on the idea that the bow movement really starts in the back and shoulder and flows down from there. At the same time, I did follow her advice on how to hold the bow, or at least tried to do that.
I have never been overly concerned with what my wrist, forearm and elbow do. Many people say, or used to say, that Irish bowing is all in the wrist. It seems like another way to get to the same points that you are making. (Obviously, one does not make large movements with the shoulder. It is just a way to make the movements holistic, I think.)
When I have some time to practice, I might have a go at your exercise there!
Bowing certainly doesn't *feel* as compartmentalized as I've described it above. I tend to feel the rhythm and pulse--and so the bowing motions-grounded from my feet right through my diaphragm and up my core. Same place breathing comes from (even more evident when you play flute). When the pulse is there, it affects every pore--like feeling your heartbeat when you lay down at night. And similarly, parts of your body have to be quiet to feel the musical pulse as much as your heart's pulse. So there's no extra movement in the limbs that connect to the bow.
thanks for the lot of info and advice i've received . A lot of work to do too. Will, I wisited Pirastro's site to look at the Pirazzi's strings. it seems they have a broad range of sets.. Could you tell me wich brand are the silky ones you fell in love with? I'm actually looking for a sweet sound rather than a brilliant one.
Massimo
I use the Evah Pirazzi mediums ("mittel") with steel E string (the goldplated E costs more and isn't appreciably better in tone). I've seen several reviews that call these strings "bright" or "brilliant," but those wouldn't be the words that come first to my mind. The tone is sweet and full, capable of brilliance but also of warmth and complex overtones. I have them on three of my fiddles and on one in particular they sound quite dark and bassy. On all three fiddles the G and D strings are nice and clear and warm, not muddy. On one fiddle the E string is brighter than I like, but it's probably the fiddle--I've tried lots of different strings on that one, and tinkered with the sound post setting, and nothing takes the edge off the notes on the E string.
Do you mean that I should be looking to rehair/clean my bow every 6 months? I never thought about rehairing it, I assumed it would last forever, or at least until all the hairs had broken.
Fiddlemax - The squeal you describe is known by most players, folk and classical. Happens on a "down" bow from A to E strings. You will notice that, while squealing, no amount of change of bow pressure will make the E sound its true pitch. But replaying the E (change of bow direction) will sound fine.
I've tried clean strings (no rosin), lots of rosin left on the strings, all sorts of physical approaches - very controlled to very loose; different places on the hair; diff hair speed - and it happens or doesn't happen in any circumstances. The squeal rarely occurs for me or others I've heard it from. Unpredictable. So it's surprising when it happens, and is therefore not very conducive to study. A perennial problem for players.
It does seem to be a problem with one's contact with the E string, tho some strings may be more forgiving of our ways.
I use Dominant strings, so perhaps shd change. But my violinmaker says the instrument was made for use with these strings, so I use them...(well, that was in response to my query about putting on gut strings).
The last time I played, I had "trouble" recreating the squeal. The only relevant difference I know of is that I had more rosin on the strings than before. Must be a gremlin at work.
Practice bowing (string crossings). Play a long note on the A string (use all the bow). When you get to the end of the bow, stop. Move your your arm down, ensuring elbow/wrist/hand stay in relation to each other. Play a long E, etc. Do this every day for about 2 weeks, making the time gaps when you change string shorter and play faster bows.
Also make sure your bow travels parallel to the bridge. dont look in the mirror. Ask someone else to look. Whistles/squeaks usually happen because the bow is slipping down or up the string.
Shouldn't have anything to do with the strings/bow/violin/rosin you are using. A good violin player should be able to make a plank play.
noises playing fiddle
noises playing fiddle
hi folks... anybody could help me to understand how to get rid of annoying noises (like a wishtle) produced by fiddle particularly on A and E strings when moving the bow to other strings.?... It shouldn't be a tecnique caused as i have no problems on another fiddle... (the bridge shape is the same on both).... could be something related to strings or.... something about the resin? it is very disturbing and i have to find a way to solve this problem.... i could change fiddles but the one i'm using is defenetely better...thanks for your comments. massimo
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by fiddlemax
Re: noises playing fiddle
Try using another bow .Process of elimination.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Bob .C.
Re: noises playing fiddle
Ah, different fiddle, different strings., slightly different feel, slightly different technique. It's always technique (even if there's something actually wrong with the fiddle, technique will play around it), although the issue may be so subtle it isn't conciously definable. It's a micro muscle thing. Do you drive standard? It's exactly the same thing as two different cars with two different clutches. When you switch you have to learn how to clutch all over again, because the feel and reaction is slightly different.
So you pick up your new fiddle, try to play it normally, just like you would the old one. . . .and the car judders, maybe stalls. On *this* fiddle you're back to being a bit of a novice and you'll have to learn not to make funny noises, just like you had to learn not to make funny noises when you first learned to play.
Here's what I'd do, but you probably aren't going to like it. . . practice. With a metronome. If you don't have a metronome go to www.metronomeonline.com. Set it to *60* (the primary function of a metronome when practicing isn't so much to get you up to speed, but rather to keep you from going too fast), pick a tune you really, really like (because you're going to be playing it a lot) and start playing, real slow (obviously) and with concentration on doing everything just right. You'll probably get no noises, or they'll go away in just a few minutes.
Now reset the metronome to 63 (assuming the usual settings on your metronome, that'll be up one click) . Do it again.
Rinse and repeat.
By the time you work your way up to speed (in, say, an hour or two) I'll bet the noises have gone away, and stay away. Congratulations, you've just learned to fiddle all over again, only with your new one.
KFG
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: noises playing fiddle
Do you have a different type of strings on the other fiddle? That can do it. Different strings also require adjustment. The same strings can behave differently on another instrument too. Sometimes alternate windings can help too. Plain steel E strings are squeaky on some instruments. Depending on what strings you're using, you could experiment with a wound or gold-plated E. On my good fiddle I use Evah Pirazzis with a gold E. It just likes the gold one better. They're tempermental beasts with their own individual personalities.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by meemtp
Re: noises playing fiddle
Thanks for the advice. I will practice slowly... i'm playing the "noisy " fiddle much longer than the other one,so .. by now i should have been confident with the new car. On both fiddles i have Tomastick (or whatever is written) Dominant strings. I also changed them (a Daddario set), but... no improvements. I also changed bows. According to process of elimination... now remains just to change.......the fiddler.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by fiddlemax
Re: noises playing fiddle
". . .now remains just to change.......the fiddler."
Why, oh why, is that always the last desperate act that people perform? : )
I should have attached a caveat to my advice. I'm used to practicing like this. If you're not it's going to take you some time a) to get used to playing with a metronome. Your sense of rhythm may, distressingly, turn out not to be quite what you thought it was, and b) if you only play at tempo you'll find you simply don't know how to play slowly. It may take you an hour or two just to learn how to do that alone. You may even be shocked to learn that you don't even know a tune you've been playing for ages and need to refer to notation a bit to learn what the notes are. Your fingers know how to move at tempo, but *you* don't actually know what the notes are.
In short, you're going to have to practice how to practice before you can practice.
Worst comes to worst I guarandamntee you'll end up playing that tune better than you ever have before. If you're practicing *properly* it's never wasted time.
Just remember the improvement will come largely the day (and in the days) *after* you practice. When you are engaged in practicing you are training short term structures of the brain and nervous system. Between practices the brain sorts it all out into long term structures.
Have patience with yourself, although that seems to be one of the hardest things to do.
KFG
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: noises playing fiddle
thanks KFG.... your advice is great...shows that the border between fiddling and philosophy is very thin. I won't change fiddlers. i will have the old one practicing.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by fiddlemax
Re: noises playing fiddle
I have found that if you have the little plastic tube-things on the A and E string, that are there to stop the string from cutting into the bridge, they can buzz. Another possibilty is if you have fine tuners and they are rattling.
Athena
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by act
Re: noises playing fiddle
Remember that with a fiddle some noises can be heard right under the ear that can hardly or not be heard only a few metres away. Trevor wrote interesting stuff about this in the past.
If it's more than just subtle noises you hear it's another story.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Henk Bos
Re: noises playing fiddle
This reminds me of a problem I've been having with my fiddle (or my fiddling), though it's a different kinda thing. When I pull the bow down from the A to the E string, the sound I get from the E string is only a very high harmonic, no fundamental tone at all. It happens nearly every time. If I start on the E string and bow down (or up), it plays just fine. It's just that one move that triggers it. Could this have something to do with that little rubber tubing thingy? If so, why only when I make that specific move?
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: noises playing fiddle
Get a new fiddler.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: noises playing fiddle
No offence meant by the above - you wouldn't believe some of the noises that come out of my fiddle. Having been trying to play for about a year, I often find that I seem to get far more musical sounds out of someone else's fiddle - then there are fiddles which make me wish I had my own with me. But, in the hands of an experienced player, any of these fiddles will sound good. So my conclusion is, it must be technique. As KFG, you can search around for the right fiddle, bow, hair, strings, rosin, location etc. until you find the combination that works for you, but ultimately it would be far better to acquire the skills to play *any* fiddle with favourable results.
So, either get a new fiddler or become a better one yourself. Perhaps I should take a leaf out of my own book.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: noises playing fiddle
Yep, fiddle's tough. A very unforgiving instrument that you've simply got to practice ad nauseum...
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by goatwhacker
Re: noises playing fiddle
Bobhimself - could be too much rosin on the bow. When you move from the A to the E, try tilting the bow away from you. If it now sounds clean my guess is that it's rosin making the bow 'skate'.
Jim
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Worldfiddler
Re: noises playing fiddle
Following up on Jim's comments, Bob could also need to have the bow rehaired. Or it could just be technique. Fiddlemax, are you using the same bow?
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: noises playing fiddle
I'm getting my bow re-haired for the first time soon. I've never done it before (been playing for about six years and no-one ever told me it needed to be done). I'm really excited - maybe I'll suddenly become a decent, like when I got a proper guitar and a proper bodhran...
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: noises playing fiddle
Did you ever spot Peter O'Connor's solution for dirty bow hair, Ker? http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4074/comments#comment83239
I still haven't had the nerve to try it, but will have to, soon. Peter told me later to use a mild soap like Ivory flakes or some such.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: noises playing fiddle
But Kerri, if it has been 6 years, don't wash it!! Get it rehaired!!!
After it is rehaired, it may have a different feel, and you will have to get used to it again. However, your bowed triplets will be nicer and you will have a nicer overall sound.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Jode
Re: noises playing fiddle
I went through a period of that Bobhi, and I don't have little rubber thingies. How the bow attacks the string in the first micro second often dictates everything that happens after that, and the attack is going to be slightly different when changing strings, bowing up and bowing down, so it's pretty easy to have a problem with one specific move, and once a string starts vibrating in a harmonic it ain't gonna stop until you stop the string and start over.
When you're having a problem, isolate it. Sometimes that's hard. Problems can hide. In your case it's easy. So do the like the body builders do, because this is a muscle training issue, practice, in isolation, only that thing you wish to improve. Don't play a tune over and over and stumble over the part you're having trouble with. Most of that time is wasted, and does little or nothing to train the muscles to play the difficulty better. It just trains them to stumble when they get to that part of the tune and you end up practicing how to play it wrong. . .forever.
So, what you're going to do is *just* move back and forth from the A to the E string. Over and over again. Try to pay attention to how everything feels while you're doing it. When you get it right, try to recreate that same feel. Eventually you'll get it, and paying attention to the feel will help "lock" it into your nervous system.
This is also, by the way, how you should go about learning a tune. Most people avoid the difficult bits, forever if they can. They get intimidated by them. Exactly the wrong approach. You should make a practice of actively searching tunes for the difficult bits and start practicing there first, in *isolation.* Just the phrase that's going to give trouble. Super slow. At first with no tempo/rhythm at all. Just learn what notes you have to hit, and in what order. Then learn the rhythm without the instrument. Just tap it out on a desktop or something. When I say isolation, I mean isolation. Learn only one thing at a time. Then put the notes and rhythm together with a metronome set at something like 60.
And all the time just that one difficult phrase, over and over.
Then start working it up to speed 3 or 4 bps at a time. When you get it up to some speed you like, say 120, then start working on the rest of the tune, a phrase at a time, and bring it up to that speed. The metronome will keep you from speeding up on the easy bits to something faster than you can play the difficult bit. If that happens you'll stumble, and practice stumbling. Which be bad.
Never play a tune any faster than you can play the hardest part, because all you'll be doing is practicing to play it badly. Doing this is the reason so many people practice so long, so hard, and never seem to be able to improve. The more they play, the more they're actually learning to play badly.
If you want to play faster, isolate. If you want better intonation, isolate. If you want to play a particular bowing better, isolate. Always isolate and only practice the specific thing you want to improve.
Playing tunes isn't practice. Playing tunes is the pay off. The reward. What we do it all for. But playing tunes not only won't necessarily make you better at playing tunes, it may well make you worse.
KFG
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: noises playing fiddle
Wow, KFG, the Mr. Miagi of fiddling has spoken. I don't know if I'm ready for the journey!
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: noises playing fiddle
6 years? If you're really playing, say a couple hours or more a day, 6 months is a bit more like it.
And if you're a cheapskate (like myself), remember, upgrading your bow when it's due for a rehairing is the same thing as getting a discount equal to the cost of a rehairing on your new bow.
KFG
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by KFG
Re: noises playing fiddle
Good ideas. Thanks!
"And if you're a cheapskate (like myself), remember, upgrading your bow when it's due for a rehairing is the same thing as getting a discount equal to the cost of a rehairing on your new bow"
I like the way you think, KFG.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: noises playing fiddle
Speaking of "isolate," I don't get what the metronome has to do with improving your tone and bow control.
I agree that the isolate idea can help some people improve--but to get rid of those extra bow noises, I'd ditch the metronome and concentrate on some long, steady bow strokes, starting in a comfortable spot on the hair and gradually lengthening the stroke till you're working it from frog to tip and back again. This may take some hours of dedicated effort before it feels solid, especially down by the frog.
And for Irish trad music, it also helps to isolate bow control and tone production on short bow strokes--half-inch or less up and down bows, driven from the fulcrum formed by index finger and thumb. Rest the hair on a string and without moving your forearm, draw the bow up and down, imagining a strong, clear tone, letting the weight of the bow itself do the work. Then do the same on each string. Finally, work on changing from one string to the next--here your forearm will move a bit to position your hand for playing each different string, but the bowing motion should still come from the index/thumb point. All while keeping your fingers, hand, wrist, and arm relaxed and loose.
I'd leave the metronome out of all this--at least in the beginning--because the idea is to focus on tone, not timing or rhythm. Once your tone is solid, then it might help to play to a metronome as a test of doing two things at once--producing good tone and playing in time.
I'd also emphasize that for good tone, you have to hear it in your head to really draw it out of the instrument. It's like having a goal to shoot for, instead of being resigned to whatever nosie comes out. Just as you hear pitch in your head and know whether you're sharp or flat or spot on, learn to hear tone in your head too. And learn to vary it, from whispery to loud and rough, to bell-like, to nasally, and so on. I find it's particularly useful in this music to aim for "pipey" tones and flute tones and box reed tones, etc., to emulate the other instruments. This can go a long way toward bringing variety to your fiddle's voice, and it will guide you to nuances in bow control you might otherwise not explore.
Also bear in mind that some fiddles--even good ones--produce more bow noise than others. You can't hear it from a few feet away, and sometimes you can soften it by changing strings or rosin. I don't like hearing a lot of bow noise in my own playing, and since I'm the one person who by definition has to listen to every noise my fiddle makes, I prefer a fiddle that sounds good right in my own ear as well as across the room. It's been my experience that Thomastik strings (Dominants and Infelds) also contribute to bow noise, although they can sound great on certain fiddles. Thomastik E strings in particular are well known for being raspy or squeaky.
# Posted on January 13th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
Will, in your third paragraph there, are you saying that you should get the bow movement from your fingers? Or is the wrist or shoulder?
When my bowing gets sloppy, I do the following: play each open string, moving the bow as slowly and as smoothly as possible. This really forces you to examine your bowing, and to teach you to control your bow at the various points through which you move.
I had not heard that about Thomsastik strings before. What kind do you use Will? I have Infelds on mine now and like the sound of them. But I am always willing to try other strings...
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Jode
Re: noises playing fiddle
Jode, what I meant by "driven from the fulcrum formed by the index finger and thumb" is that you can do short, relaxed but controlled bow strokes with no movement of the forearm or shoulder--it all comes from the index finger and thumb, with a loose wrist that acts mainly as a shock absorber for the changes in bow direction.
Winnowing out extra motion in our bow arms seems to be a lifelong pursuit. Brian Conway talks about keeping the motion "as close to the stick" as possible. Whether your pinky (4th finger) is on the stick or not, the movement of the bow is initiated and to a great deal controlled by the contact point of thumb and index. Experimenting with this has convinced me that the subtleties of bow pressure, slurring, and direction changes are best controlled at that point, rather than in the wrist or further up the arm. It's particularly useful in Clare and Sligo styles, where shifts in tone, and short swelling slurs play important roles in giving lift and expression to the tunes. It's also easier--once you've sweated bullets for a few thousand hours--to create *extremely relaxed* motions at that smaller scale. Which is what makes the music sound effortless.
Of course, your wrist and forearm do move--on longer bow strokes and string changes in particular. But an awful lot goes on just at the index and thumb. For example, bowed triplets don't get really crisp and clearly articulated until you focus the motion that close to the stick.
At least based on my anecdotal experience.
Jode, I use Pirastro Evah Pirazzi strings and have for over two years now. A little pricier than the Infelds, but I love their tone, and they last a long time. I even like how silky they feel under my fingers. Seems like everyone I've recommended them to falls in love with them. Fancy shops charge $60 and more for a set, but my local store sells them for $45 US, and I've seen them online for a simiar price.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
Yup. Will had me try the Pirazzis, and I've been searching for strings I like better ever since, since they're awfully expensive. So far, nothing doing, the only thing I know is that I really HATED the Infeld Reds and Blues. I couldn't keep from squeaking on the E to save my life. I've tried the Corelli Crystals, and I thought they were okay but nothing to write home about.
I have to try the Pirazzis on this new fiddle, though, Will. Rock put new Dominants on them when I bought them. So I figure I'll wait til these play themselves out...
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: noises playing fiddle
So in about two weeks, for the A anyway.
I actually like the tone of the Dominants for Irish music. I just wish the wrapping was more durable, and that they'd fix their e strings.
Still, the Pirazzis give a richer tone and they strike me as a tad more responsive.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
Yes. Damn it.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: noises playing fiddle
I have enjoyed the tone from the Dominants for years, and only recently tried the Infeld - they were on sale through Shar. Actually, I did not see a major improvement from the Dominants, so would probably go back there. I never buy the Dominant E. My brother turned me on to Goldbrokat Es and that is what I use. They are super cheap, but have a pretty sweet sound.
I have tried various Pirastro and Corelli strings, but did not like them.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Jode
Re: noises playing fiddle
The Pirazzis are better than the other Pirastro strings I've tried (although the Obligatos I used once were okay). But different fiddles seem to prefer different strings, and our ears have their proclivities as well. I really like the tone Liz and Yvonne Kane get, and they reportedly use Dominants.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
That's what Yvonne Kane told me, anyway!
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: noises playing fiddle
I used to get a whistle sound--basically the note wouldn't sound when I changed bow to the E string, or it would make a little whistley noise.
I switched to the Wondertone E, and it stopped. I also practiced the change a lot, so I can't say which was the reason for my success. On the other strings I use helicores. I like them better than dominants, especially because of the tailpiece I am using with built-in fine tuners. (Before that I mostly used gut strings with an ordinary tailpiece).
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Candace
Re: noises playing fiddle
Will, I will try the Pirazzis. I think the Obligatos were one of the ones I tried years ago before settling on Dominants. Do you use their E as well?
Concerning the bowing topic, awhile back, when I examined my technique overall, my brother introduced me to Kato Havas. She is a classical player and instructor who became fascinated with the gypsy players in Hungary. Both because they get a wonderful tone and because they did not seem to have physical problems.
Following her advice, I concentrated on the idea that the bow movement really starts in the back and shoulder and flows down from there. At the same time, I did follow her advice on how to hold the bow, or at least tried to do that.
I have never been overly concerned with what my wrist, forearm and elbow do. Many people say, or used to say, that Irish bowing is all in the wrist. It seems like another way to get to the same points that you are making. (Obviously, one does not make large movements with the shoulder. It is just a way to make the movements holistic, I think.)
When I have some time to practice, I might have a go at your exercise there!
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Jode
Re: noises playing fiddle
Bowing certainly doesn't *feel* as compartmentalized as I've described it above. I tend to feel the rhythm and pulse--and so the bowing motions-grounded from my feet right through my diaphragm and up my core. Same place breathing comes from (even more evident when you play flute). When the pulse is there, it affects every pore--like feeling your heartbeat when you lay down at night. And similarly, parts of your body have to be quiet to feel the musical pulse as much as your heart's pulse. So there's no extra movement in the limbs that connect to the bow.
That's my story anyway, and l'm sticking to it.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
thanks for the lot of info and advice i've received . A lot of work to do too. Will, I wisited Pirastro's site to look at the Pirazzi's strings. it seems they have a broad range of sets.. Could you tell me wich brand are the silky ones you fell in love with? I'm actually looking for a sweet sound rather than a brilliant one.
Massimo
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by fiddlemax
Re: noises playing fiddle
I use the Evah Pirazzi mediums ("mittel") with steel E string (the goldplated E costs more and isn't appreciably better in tone). I've seen several reviews that call these strings "bright" or "brilliant," but those wouldn't be the words that come first to my mind. The tone is sweet and full, capable of brilliance but also of warmth and complex overtones. I have them on three of my fiddles and on one in particular they sound quite dark and bassy. On all three fiddles the G and D strings are nice and clear and warm, not muddy. On one fiddle the E string is brighter than I like, but it's probably the fiddle--I've tried lots of different strings on that one, and tinkered with the sound post setting, and nothing takes the edge off the notes on the E string.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
I gave up the fiddle because of nasty squeaking noises.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by showaddydadito
Re: noises playing fiddle
Mine went away when we got a water bed....
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
I used hear funny noises too, not a squeking more like....oh how did it go again......some thing like "SHUT THE FCUK UP"...something like that anyway.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by BegF
Re: noises playing fiddle
Sometimes I think learning to play fiddle is like training for kick boxing ...you don't really get any better, but you learn to accept the pain.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
And then there's moments of epiphany... where it all just flows.... One just happened, so I'm rather happy. :D
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Pádraig
Re: noises playing fiddle
Yes, thank goodness for those. Speaking for myself here...moments of sheer bliss punctuated by years of howling mediocrity.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
Do you mean that I should be looking to rehair/clean my bow every 6 months? I never thought about rehairing it, I assumed it would last forever, or at least until all the hairs had broken.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by carly
Re: noises playing fiddle
Yup, Carly. The O'Connors claim that the washing thing will lengthen the life of your bow hairs considerably, though.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: noises playing fiddle
I've cleaned bow hair, both the soapy water method and the solvent and comb approach. In neither case was it worth the trouble.
I play a fair amount--it's worth it (in quality of tone) to rehair once or twice a year.
# Posted on January 14th 2005 by Will Harmon
Re: noises playing fiddle
I always use shiny strings.
Trevor
# Posted on January 15th 2005 by Trevor Jennings
Re: noises playing fiddle
Fiddlemax - The squeal you describe is known by most players, folk and classical. Happens on a "down" bow from A to E strings. You will notice that, while squealing, no amount of change of bow pressure will make the E sound its true pitch. But replaying the E (change of bow direction) will sound fine.
I've tried clean strings (no rosin), lots of rosin left on the strings, all sorts of physical approaches - very controlled to very loose; different places on the hair; diff hair speed - and it happens or doesn't happen in any circumstances. The squeal rarely occurs for me or others I've heard it from. Unpredictable. So it's surprising when it happens, and is therefore not very conducive to study. A perennial problem for players.
It does seem to be a problem with one's contact with the E string, tho some strings may be more forgiving of our ways.
I use Dominant strings, so perhaps shd change. But my violinmaker says the instrument was made for use with these strings, so I use them...(well, that was in response to my query about putting on gut strings).
Keep us posted on your progress --- vlnplyr
# Posted on January 17th 2005 by vlnplyr
Re: noises playing fiddle
The last time I played, I had "trouble" recreating the squeal. The only relevant difference I know of is that I had more rosin on the strings than before. Must be a gremlin at work.
# Posted on January 17th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: noises playing fiddle
Practice bowing (string crossings). Play a long note on the A string (use all the bow). When you get to the end of the bow, stop. Move your your arm down, ensuring elbow/wrist/hand stay in relation to each other. Play a long E, etc. Do this every day for about 2 weeks, making the time gaps when you change string shorter and play faster bows.
Also make sure your bow travels parallel to the bridge. dont look in the mirror. Ask someone else to look. Whistles/squeaks usually happen because the bow is slipping down or up the string.
Shouldn't have anything to do with the strings/bow/violin/rosin you are using. A good violin player should be able to make a plank play.
# Posted on January 19th 2005 by Choonz