I've heard at various times, that there are areas in Ireland that E-flat sessions are popular and/or the norm. Does anyone know in what parts of this country this is the case? I'm planning on leaving my fiddle at home, and arming myself with my flute weaponry for ease of travel. Need to know if I should bring the E-flat body for my axe.
dont know if this is of any use,but acouple of years ago I played at a ladies 90th birthday party in a pub in the city of London,(the dark monk or somesuch) with a couple of Irish fellas ,one on guitar and one on box,the box player was tuned to high D. I had to crank my strings half a notch,but the term he used was high D.
Sessions in e-flat can be found, but there is a certain etiquette involved. Firstly, a session will not be in e-flat, c or any other key unless the musicians collectively agree to go there. This might only happen if the session is going monstrously well already in normal tuning, and the players want to take it a bit higher, if you get what I mean! Starting a session in e-flat and having to tune down again when someone joins late on without a suitable instrument can be very depressing for the musicians who are "high" on playing in the higher key!
It goes without saying that it is good manners to include other musicians who call in, even if one has to tune up or down from where one was before. I generally play for set dancers in e-flat- they jump a lot higher and smile a lot more, without really knowing why!
I suppose you will get some self inflated egos playing at E-flat sessions, obviously to keep guitarists and beginners away, with the aim being that the music will die with them. Problem is, I have an E-flat bodhran
I've always thought Eb sessions are a little elitist. If one is looking for a sound on stage or in the studio, fair enough, but musicians over the ages played slightly under what is now standard pitch. Part of the problem probably stems from traditional musicians playing other kinds of music in the 30's, 40's and fifties to earn a little extra money , always for dancing of course, with instruments like the sax and clarinet in Eb and Bb. In the 70's some musicians who shall remain anonymous
joined in sessions immediately ostracising the existing players by changing to Eb, just to satisfy their own little clique.
OK, if, before anything starts there is an agreement to play the whole thing in Eb, without alienating musicians, I can see the point. But I really don't honestly think it changes anything, unless there is an awful lot of noise in the place and tightening the strings makes it a little louder.
Maybe I'm just being a bit dense today (and running a quart low on coffee as well), but why would having to tune up a half step/capo on the first fret keep beginners and guitarists away?
For that matter, why wouldn't the guitarists simply play in Eb? I hear tell they've invented these things called "barre" chords and you can just slide your fingers up the fret board and play in whatever damned key you like.
(Oh. and "Hi," I'm new here. Very new on fiddle. Very old on guitar)
... and I'm not sure my fiddle would tolerate being tuned up anyway ... though I am the same eejit who once put mandolin strings on a fiddle ... not a great success.
Orson . Black Friar, thats the one.the guitar player had long hair and was from Donegall.I cant remeber where the box player was from only that he now lives around the Elephant somewhere
with KFG about, you'd wonder how the shops sell so many capos. I've played with musicians and the only key they knew was Donegall Quay in Belfast. All this talk of keys would have put their head astray, if they had known what you were talking about. By the way, I was only joking about the E-flat bodhran.
One night, at a venue which used to be a hive of good music (before it got "modernized") I was sitting with a pleasant group of musicians, when a gentleman bounded into the room, sat down beside me, and asked if he could join in. The worried looks on the faces of the other musicians should have let me know that something was amiss, but being of a tolerant disposition, I told him he was welcome. Invisible daggers shot in my direction from all directions, but what the hell, he couldn't do much harm....surely?
We all set off into the next tune, when the fiddle to my left launched into a series of loud wails, not quite in time or tune with anyone or anything else. As I sat in shock at the end of the set, the faces of the other musicians set in stone, my new friend asked " Was that the Mountain Road you were playing?" When I replied that it was not, but a jig called the Mist Covered Mountain ( nope, not trying to be funny) he replied quite happily "Really? I thought it was the Mountain Road, thats what I was playing!"
He continued in similar vein until the other musicians asked him cheerily to play one by himself, at which stage he told us he was only stopping for a quick pint, and could he oblige us some other time? and cleared off into the Celtic Twilight, or somewhere. Which goes to prove that the etiquette I mentioned earlier doesn't always work! ( Nope, not playing in E flat either.....)
When I was a lot younger, I sometimes came across the situations Ian referred to, when a session was hijacked by a few deciding to tune up ( and to hell with the rest) but thankfully not as often as occasions when I was listening to an e-flat session and when everyone tuned down to let me sit in.
When I eventually got a D/D sharp melodeon for set dance ceilis, it went to many's a session, but always with the C/D one to keep it company just in case.
I play in E flat rarely at sessions nowadays, except if the guys in the session decide beforehand it would be nice for a change. And it is... As is tuning down to C, which is even nicer if the session is quiet.
For most guitarist, playing barre chords for extended periods becomes physically very tiring. Another easier (and less tiring) alternative would be to play moveable triads & quartads, the sort that many jazz players use. However,since this is often done fingerstyle, I suspect it would be hard to hear in a session setting unless the guitarist were amplified.
To be fair I've got a capo that's perfectly at home on my second fret. I'm a tenor blues singer and if I sing in E my voice is too smooth, almost operatic, and who wants to listen to an opera singer sing blues? ( I was once actually billed as "A tenor who doesn't suck")
But if push it up just a bit to F# I can start to sing "dirty." Since I'm a solo performer I can get away with that. Anyone who wants to sit in with me has to make accommodations. Sucks to be them I guess.
It's certainly easier to use a capo than hold a full barre all the time.
I also like to keep the capo there when I'm flat picking fiddle tunes. Being stopped against a fret and the shorter scale improves string response, so I can go a bit faster a bit easier.
I'll note though that often times when you're holding a full barre you're really only playing a triad or quartad, so you really only have to apply pressure to the high or low strings. Gives the finger a bit of a rest, as well as using rhythm for same end. There are, of course, movable or open chord forms other than the "I done learned these from a Jerry Silverman teach yourself folk guitar in five minutes book" that don't require a full barre that are perfectly suitable for rhythm strumming.
I hear what you're saying about being heard though. I've been doing some backup work for a fiddle and accordian duo. The fiddle is a Zeta electric. The Accordian is just plain loud. I'm playing unamplified and my guitar is on the quiet and sweet side. I don't particularly care for dreadnaughts, even when I'm street performing.
They say I "fill out their sound" and are quite happy with the arrangement. I'm not sure what I'm even there for, because as far as I can tell no one can hear me at all. Lord knows I can't. It might be just was well, seeing as I'm learning their repetoire by ear while we're on stage, which is kinda hard to do if you can't hear. I might have to get a Pignose or something, just for that little extra push. They actually have charts for all their stuff, because the accordian player is a championship winning sight reader, but one of those players who's so good at sight reading that she's never memorized stuff she's been playing for decades. So she gets the charts. I have to wing it. I warned them that I'm not a real musician, I just play one on stage. They say they've heard me play and I'm full of it. I think they're nuts.
I know a lot of real musicians. I'm not one of them. At least not yet. I'm working on it. An improvisational flute player who's always begging me for backup says he likes to work with me because I'm a competant guitarist. I think that's about right. According to him just being a competant guitarist makes me special.
Now that I think back on all the open mics and "jams" I've been to over the years he might just have a point.
I spent most of the afternoon that I wan't messing about with the fiddle listening to Wes Montgomery. I'm in that awkward state of mind where I'm not quite sure whether I'm inspired to practice my little heart out, of just burn the sucker.
I'm about to switch to Silly Wizard. I expect I'll feel the same way about fiddle shortly. I once spent about an hour sitting under a tree with Johnny Cunningham while he noodled about for fun. At the end of it he broke into a rendition of Devil's Dream that was faster than anything I've ever seen, or ever expect to see, and yet every note rang clearly. "Technical" guitarists would p*ss their pants to be able to play that fast, that well. The whole time Johnny was so relaxed you might have thought he was about to fall asleep, as well he might have been.
He was my age. Who knew I'd never get the chance to see him again? Jesus I miss the crazy bastard.
No worries Orson. A good hijack/deviation actually. I'm not sure if I want to bring it. I'd just heard that some places had Eb sessions. Personally, I'd rather go in the other direction. I like playing my fiddle tuned down, with my friend on his C pipes. I do wish I had a Bb flute. I do have a C whistle though.
All the sessions I have been to in Limerick (city) have been cranked up a semitone - probably more to do with the crowd that played in them than the place itself. Putting a capo on a mandolin is easy enough, but playing the thing is another matter - with the short distance between the nut and the first fret on a mandolin, even purpose-made capos get in the way. If I were a regular at E-flat sessions, I would probably keep one mandolin light-strung and permanently tuned up a semitone.
E Flat sessions are common enough and one should be prepared. Every fiddle I have ever played could be tuned up in seconds, banjos, guitars, mandolins can be capoed. All wistle and flute players seem well equipped to play. I has nothing to do with keep players at bay. Sometimes its used to improve the sound and give a lift to the music. Other times it may be dictated by the tuning of a Box like one in C-C# which when fingered in B /C will give E Flat. You can find a session in E Flat anywhere in Ireland but more often then not in Limerick, Kerry or Cork.
OK, while you're on this topic, I have a guitar player pressuring me to play a half-tone higher. Are there fiddle strings that handle the extra tension better than others, in anyone's experience? I have been using helicores and I don't think they adjust all that well.
Anyway, the only half-tone-high sessions around here (Montreal) are sessions that started out in concert pitch and ended up sharp after a long night of drinking and tweaking.
Slightly off-topic, but I've just heard of a viola player in a string quartet in Bristol who refuses to play any music having less than three flats in it. His quartet presumably has a somewhat unusual repertoire
The reason for this violist's apparently bizarre requirement seems to be that he has small hands, and keys with lots of flats are a lot easier for his finger reach.
Trevor
E-flat sessions in Ireland
E-flat sessions in Ireland
I've heard at various times, that there are areas in Ireland that E-flat sessions are popular and/or the norm. Does anyone know in what parts of this country this is the case? I'm planning on leaving my fiddle at home, and arming myself with my flute weaponry for ease of travel. Need to know if I should bring the E-flat body for my axe.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by meemtp
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
I've heard of Bb and C sessions from time to time but not Eb. Bring your earplugs! ;)
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by uilleann_craic
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
E flat sessions might be a good idea if good musicians want to keep bad players like me from joining.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by slainte
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
dont know if this is of any use,but acouple of years ago I played at a ladies 90th birthday party in a pub in the city of London,(the dark monk or somesuch) with a couple of Irish fellas ,one on guitar and one on box,the box player was tuned to high D. I had to crank my strings half a notch,but the term he used was high D.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Bob .C.
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
Sessions in e-flat can be found, but there is a certain etiquette involved. Firstly, a session will not be in e-flat, c or any other key unless the musicians collectively agree to go there. This might only happen if the session is going monstrously well already in normal tuning, and the players want to take it a bit higher, if you get what I mean! Starting a session in e-flat and having to tune down again when someone joins late on without a suitable instrument can be very depressing for the musicians who are "high" on playing in the higher key!
It goes without saying that it is good manners to include other musicians who call in, even if one has to tune up or down from where one was before. I generally play for set dancers in e-flat- they jump a lot higher and smile a lot more, without really knowing why!
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by red diesel
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
I suppose you will get some self inflated egos playing at E-flat sessions, obviously to keep guitarists and beginners away, with the aim being that the music will die with them. Problem is, I have an E-flat bodhran
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
I've always thought Eb sessions are a little elitist. If one is looking for a sound on stage or in the studio, fair enough, but musicians over the ages played slightly under what is now standard pitch. Part of the problem probably stems from traditional musicians playing other kinds of music in the 30's, 40's and fifties to earn a little extra money , always for dancing of course, with instruments like the sax and clarinet in Eb and Bb. In the 70's some musicians who shall remain anonymous
joined in sessions immediately ostracising the existing players by changing to Eb, just to satisfy their own little clique.
OK, if, before anything starts there is an agreement to play the whole thing in Eb, without alienating musicians, I can see the point. But I really don't honestly think it changes anything, unless there is an awful lot of noise in the place and tightening the strings makes it a little louder.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Ian Stevenson
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
I seem to remember an Eb session upstairs in The Crane in Galway? Is it still going?
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by curlew
Re: Learn your scales properly in the first place
Ah, perhaps the penny will drop now - why some of us play piano accordion.
G / D sessions are for wimps - Eb sessions don't frighten us!!
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
Maybe I'm just being a bit dense today (and running a quart low on coffee as well), but why would having to tune up a half step/capo on the first fret keep beginners and guitarists away?
For that matter, why wouldn't the guitarists simply play in Eb? I hear tell they've invented these things called "barre" chords and you can just slide your fingers up the fret board and play in whatever damned key you like.
(Oh. and "Hi," I'm new here. Very new on fiddle. Very old on guitar)
KFG
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by KFG
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
Welcome KFG - I was having a similar thought
And Welcome BTB ... was the dark monk the Black Friar by any chance? And who was the box player?
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Just a person
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
... and I'm not sure my fiddle would tolerate being tuned up anyway ... though I am the same eejit who once put mandolin strings on a fiddle ... not a great success.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Just a person
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
KFG. how s it going .bob the brickie.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Bob .C.
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
Orson . Black Friar, thats the one.the guitar player had long hair and was from Donegall.I cant remeber where the box player was from only that he now lives around the Elephant somewhere
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Bob .C.
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
P.S. meemtp, sorry for the threadjack/deviation ... so are you going to bring your Eb flute too?
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Just a person
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
with KFG about, you'd wonder how the shops sell so many capos. I've played with musicians and the only key they knew was Donegall Quay in Belfast. All this talk of keys would have put their head astray, if they had known what you were talking about. By the way, I was only joking about the E-flat bodhran.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by bodhran bliss
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
One night, at a venue which used to be a hive of good music (before it got "modernized") I was sitting with a pleasant group of musicians, when a gentleman bounded into the room, sat down beside me, and asked if he could join in. The worried looks on the faces of the other musicians should have let me know that something was amiss, but being of a tolerant disposition, I told him he was welcome. Invisible daggers shot in my direction from all directions, but what the hell, he couldn't do much harm....surely?
We all set off into the next tune, when the fiddle to my left launched into a series of loud wails, not quite in time or tune with anyone or anything else. As I sat in shock at the end of the set, the faces of the other musicians set in stone, my new friend asked " Was that the Mountain Road you were playing?" When I replied that it was not, but a jig called the Mist Covered Mountain ( nope, not trying to be funny) he replied quite happily "Really? I thought it was the Mountain Road, thats what I was playing!"
He continued in similar vein until the other musicians asked him cheerily to play one by himself, at which stage he told us he was only stopping for a quick pint, and could he oblige us some other time? and cleared off into the Celtic Twilight, or somewhere. Which goes to prove that the etiquette I mentioned earlier doesn't always work! ( Nope, not playing in E flat either.....)
When I was a lot younger, I sometimes came across the situations Ian referred to, when a session was hijacked by a few deciding to tune up ( and to hell with the rest) but thankfully not as often as occasions when I was listening to an e-flat session and when everyone tuned down to let me sit in.
When I eventually got a D/D sharp melodeon for set dance ceilis, it went to many's a session, but always with the C/D one to keep it company just in case.
I play in E flat rarely at sessions nowadays, except if the guys in the session decide beforehand it would be nice for a change. And it is... As is tuning down to C, which is even nicer if the session is quiet.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by red diesel
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
For most guitarist, playing barre chords for extended periods becomes physically very tiring. Another easier (and less tiring) alternative would be to play moveable triads & quartads, the sort that many jazz players use. However,since this is often done fingerstyle, I suspect it would be hard to hear in a session setting unless the guitarist were amplified.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by rob zouk
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
To be fair I've got a capo that's perfectly at home on my second fret. I'm a tenor blues singer and if I sing in E my voice is too smooth, almost operatic, and who wants to listen to an opera singer sing blues? ( I was once actually billed as "A tenor who doesn't suck")
But if push it up just a bit to F# I can start to sing "dirty." Since I'm a solo performer I can get away with that. Anyone who wants to sit in with me has to make accommodations. Sucks to be them I guess.
It's certainly easier to use a capo than hold a full barre all the time.
I also like to keep the capo there when I'm flat picking fiddle tunes. Being stopped against a fret and the shorter scale improves string response, so I can go a bit faster a bit easier.
I'll note though that often times when you're holding a full barre you're really only playing a triad or quartad, so you really only have to apply pressure to the high or low strings. Gives the finger a bit of a rest, as well as using rhythm for same end. There are, of course, movable or open chord forms other than the "I done learned these from a Jerry Silverman teach yourself folk guitar in five minutes book" that don't require a full barre that are perfectly suitable for rhythm strumming.
I hear what you're saying about being heard though. I've been doing some backup work for a fiddle and accordian duo. The fiddle is a Zeta electric. The Accordian is just plain loud. I'm playing unamplified and my guitar is on the quiet and sweet side. I don't particularly care for dreadnaughts, even when I'm street performing.
They say I "fill out their sound" and are quite happy with the arrangement. I'm not sure what I'm even there for, because as far as I can tell no one can hear me at all. Lord knows I can't. It might be just was well, seeing as I'm learning their repetoire by ear while we're on stage, which is kinda hard to do if you can't hear. I might have to get a Pignose or something, just for that little extra push. They actually have charts for all their stuff, because the accordian player is a championship winning sight reader, but one of those players who's so good at sight reading that she's never memorized stuff she's been playing for decades. So she gets the charts. I have to wing it. I warned them that I'm not a real musician, I just play one on stage. They say they've heard me play and I'm full of it. I think they're nuts.
I know a lot of real musicians. I'm not one of them. At least not yet. I'm working on it. An improvisational flute player who's always begging me for backup says he likes to work with me because I'm a competant guitarist. I think that's about right. According to him just being a competant guitarist makes me special.
Now that I think back on all the open mics and "jams" I've been to over the years he might just have a point.
I spent most of the afternoon that I wan't messing about with the fiddle listening to Wes Montgomery. I'm in that awkward state of mind where I'm not quite sure whether I'm inspired to practice my little heart out, of just burn the sucker.
I'm about to switch to Silly Wizard. I expect I'll feel the same way about fiddle shortly. I once spent about an hour sitting under a tree with Johnny Cunningham while he noodled about for fun. At the end of it he broke into a rendition of Devil's Dream that was faster than anything I've ever seen, or ever expect to see, and yet every note rang clearly. "Technical" guitarists would p*ss their pants to be able to play that fast, that well. The whole time Johnny was so relaxed you might have thought he was about to fall asleep, as well he might have been.
He was my age. Who knew I'd never get the chance to see him again? Jesus I miss the crazy bastard.
KFG
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by KFG
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
So I gotta shell out another $6K for an Eb set of pipes?? Can't capo up my chanter that's for sure.
We had a B and a C session as part of our So Cal tionol since everybody and their mother seemed to have a flat set (except me)
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by I_Fel
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
No worries Orson. A good hijack/deviation actually. I'm not sure if I want to bring it. I'd just heard that some places had Eb sessions. Personally, I'd rather go in the other direction. I like playing my fiddle tuned down, with my friend on his C pipes. I do wish I had a Bb flute. I do have a C whistle though.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by meemtp
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
All the sessions I have been to in Limerick (city) have been cranked up a semitone - probably more to do with the crowd that played in them than the place itself. Putting a capo on a mandolin is easy enough, but playing the thing is another matter - with the short distance between the nut and the first fret on a mandolin, even purpose-made capos get in the way. If I were a regular at E-flat sessions, I would probably keep one mandolin light-strung and permanently tuned up a semitone.
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by ragaman
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
E Flat sessions are common enough and one should be prepared. Every fiddle I have ever played could be tuned up in seconds, banjos, guitars, mandolins can be capoed. All wistle and flute players seem well equipped to play. I has nothing to do with keep players at bay. Sometimes its used to improve the sound and give a lift to the music. Other times it may be dictated by the tuning of a Box like one in C-C# which when fingered in B /C will give E Flat. You can find a session in E Flat anywhere in Ireland but more often then not in Limerick, Kerry or Cork.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
OK, while you're on this topic, I have a guitar player pressuring me to play a half-tone higher. Are there fiddle strings that handle the extra tension better than others, in anyone's experience? I have been using helicores and I don't think they adjust all that well.
Anyway, the only half-tone-high sessions around here (Montreal) are sessions that started out in concert pitch and ended up sharp after a long night of drinking and tweaking.
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by Kerri Brown
Re: E-flat sessions in Ireland
Slightly off-topic, but I've just heard of a viola player in a string quartet in Bristol who refuses to play any music having less than three flats in it. His quartet presumably has a somewhat unusual repertoire
The reason for this violist's apparently bizarre requirement seems to be that he has small hands, and keys with lots of flats are a lot easier for his finger reach.
Trevor
# Posted on January 11th 2005 by lazyhound