I'm a newbie member and I'm wondering whether the accompanying guitar chords can be found to match all the great tunes you have here. Does ABC give you the chords or does that cover only the melody?
Welcome to The Session, Donaidh. Choosing chords is a great deal of what makes accompaniment of this stuff very difficult and extremely personal. Most players will not put chords with their ABCs for this reason -- it's up to the player, the moment, and the crack at the time to choose which chords sound right to them.
We've got some threads in archives on the subject, if you search for "guitar chords", I'm sure you'll find them.
One of the issues inherent in the previously referenced discussion is that you'll won't find consensus in choice of chords, or even whether accompanists should even play along with Irish melody players. However, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that many tunes--not all, but perhaps most--can be accompanied by a chordal instrument.
Some tunes are quite easy to play chords to, and the best way is to figure it out by ear, if you're going to play sessions. If you know enough about music theory to figure out I/IV/V chords, then simply listen for the changes, and play along. Experimentation is good, but perhaps best pursued alone with a CD player or a computer until you're comfortable with the tunes.
There are some books and transcriptions that suggest chords. They can provide a good start, but I sometimes find that the chords can be misplaced or even wrong. Many commercial books of popular tunes will have chords over the measures, but it's only to provide guidance to amateur players.
Booklearning chords is one way of getting started, but what does an accompanist do when he or she hears a tune that's not familiar? The best thing to do there is to simply listen and not play. If you're experienced enough and you've got a good ear, and especially if you know something about scales and phrases, you can often figure out an appropriate chord. Often there's no "right" chord, but a choice of several. That's where the art comes in. A well-placed substitution can really light up a tune, but you kind of have to know what you're doing to do that.
Listen. Experiment. Watch other guitarists. Ask questions. Learn a melody instrument. If you're practicing with a fiddler or other melodist, ask them to slow a phrase down if you're not sure what to play. And play with tolerant players. It's hard enough to learn a new musical style w/o being slogged unmercifully to the point of going home sad.
If you use a bit of software called MidiNotate (I use it), when you download a midi file from the Session site or any other , then one click of the mouseand the software will display the chord most appropriate for the tune.
Can't help feeling dissapointed that there are no hard and fast rules on accompaniment though - makes it all the more difficult when it's such an individual thing!
Though I've just got into the Irish (and more so the Scottish!) way of playing I'm sort of comfortable in playing with my fiddle & accordion mates in most keys using the I-IV-V chord method. My problem is finding those chords that fall outwith that method and knowing when to insert them properly. I suppose some homework on substitution & relative minors could help - what a thought!
Does anyone know of any sites and/or books that can help me figure out how to make these well-placed substitutions or is it like most people are saying a case of learning the tunes and practising?
Now I stress this is not always the case but quite often the B part of a tune can switch to the relative minor. For example in a reel in D a pattern that I often find works is D - G - A for the first part and then Bm - F#m - G - A for the second part. A nice trick can be to step-up from the D to the G ie D - D/F# - G - A. The F# acts as a passing chord.
This does get awfully boring after a while however and does not always work so I would suggest finding your own way and figuring out what sounds nice depending on the style that the melody players have. Look for other chords that can have these aditional notes and passing chords eg D/C# and A/C#. It can make the accompaniment more interesting at times.
Good luck with this and if you figure it out could you let me know how to do it properly. You just might stop a session murder in the future *gulp*.
The absence of a safety net of 'standard' chords can be frightening.But really the only way into playing this music is to develop your ear.Trusting your own ears to hear the changes as stevie says and developing this with practice.your chords will often feel too simple and uninventive but it's important to value this simplicity and slowly build on it letting substitution chords naturally find their way in rather than trying to impose them on tunes.This way of playing though a bit daunting at first can actually become a very liberating experience as i am just discovering myself.it teaches you above all to hear the tune first & hear your own accompaniment as a means to support & accent the tune.
There's a tutorial dvd by john doyle for guitar (drop d tuning) which can be found on the homespun website and a cd-rom also by j doyle from madfortrad.these can be useful although im not a great fan of doyle's playing.i think he sometimes lacks a bit of sensitivity and overplays completely but having said that some of his chord choices can be sublime.
John Doyle's video is very good on technique (assuming you like his technique, which some don't), but it does not really give any good insight on how to determine the proper chordal accompanyments. Coyotebanjo (Chris Smith) used to have an excellent page on his personal website about the theory of applying chords to Irish trad melodies, but my recollection is that he doesn't have that page up any more.
Here are some rules of thumb that I find helpful. I-IV-V often works for major tunes, with relative minor substitutions adding color. For dorian mode tunes (for a well known example Drowsy Maggie in E dorian), the typical A part chords are I-VII (e.g. Em-DM). For B parts you'll often see a shift in modes, e.g. Drowsy Maggie shifts to DM with D and A major chords in the B part.
Another rule of thumb, avoiding thirds never hurts, thus the partiality of many for DADGAD tuning. John Doyle uses standard tuning with drop-D but as his video shows he often doesn't play the third of any chord, making them more a collection of fifths than proper major or minor chords.
Open C is interesting, I'll try that. I know someone who does 5ths, like a mandocello (CGDAEB I think) which I also want to try sometime. I too love drop D and am no fan of DADGAD.
Check out Frank Kilkelly's "Accomapnying Irish Music on Guitar" instruction book and CD. It is by far the best I have come across. It covers a range of different tunings and gives some good advice re substitution and passing chords.
I'd tend to agree with Carl, if I was to pick one book to get it would be Frank Kilkelly's as it covers a wide range of ideas as well as tunings, Jazzy chords, droning, DADGAD etc.
Of course the best advice anyone will give you is don't backup a tune unless you know it....at least be able to hum it, but try and learn the melodys either on guitar or get a melody instrument and learn a few tunes, you'll be surprised how much it will help your backing.
To throw in my two cents, it's not always a matter of knowing the standard "substitutions". Chord choice can sometimes be quite ambiguous in Irish music. I also would take issue with any software that shows the chords "most appropriate" for a tune. While for many tunes the choice of chords seems quite clear, for many others there are several different paths that may be taken.
For instance, there's a spot in Swallowtail Jig were everyone normally plays an Em. I play an A, which is not a normal "substitution" chord. It is, however, every bit as "appropriate" musically as the Em. This sort of thing doesn't work for Johnny B. Goode, but it's one of the things that makes Irish music so unique.
I normally play melody on my octave mandolin, but when I do accompaniment, I build my chords on the melody and what works for me as I listen to and play the tune. Often, when I later look up the "common" chords there will be significant differences. Any yet each works equally well. My point is that you can find common chordal accompaniment to most of the popular tunes, but with this music you shouldn't limit yourself to that. Which, incidently, is one of the reasons that more than one accompaniment instrument in sessions is not advised.
My backing musicians have nearly all had a smattering of jazz and put the chords in by listening to a lot of ITM and mentally working out the chords. They don't play the melody, but they say that knowing the tune well enough to hum or whistle, helps greatly in knowing where to put "interesting" chords.
So it possibly still boils down to learning tunes rather than chord sequences?
I would agree with Geoff, it definitely is not about learning chord sequences, although that can be a useful set of training wheels. It's about learning to hear where the tune is and where it's going to.
My suggestion is to listen for a single note that underlies a given phrase and focus on that. Chords will come from those key notes. It won't always be the root of the chord, often the melody will make that so obvious there's no real point in your hammering on it as well. It might be the dreaded third, it might be the root of the relative minor of the "obvious chord" (if the melody spells out a D-F#-A, a B under that puts in some needed tension, as long as you get around to resolving it). Listen to the accompanists on your favorite records and try to work out what they're doing and whether you like that or not. (The High Part of the Road is great for this, with the nice stereo split between Peoples and Brady)
Some general rules, which might be helpful:
Don't be afraid to make mistakes, but don't make too many too loudly. Don't be afraid of dissonance, but get some consonance in there once in a while as well for variety. Don't be afraid of syncopation, but let us know you're aware of the beat from time to time. Don't be afraid to stand out a little, but make sure it's seldom enough to stand out. Don't be afraid of dynamics, it's nice when the guitar drops out a little. Do be afraid of dynamics if by dynamics you mean playing really loud all the time. Whatever you do, someone will always complain about your playing, so listen to criticism greacefully and don't go home and hang yourself with a guitar string if someone compares one of your pet chords to "a dagger in my heart"(a quote from James Kelly, I think). On the other hand, when the rest of the session deserts to another bar without telling you, or comes to your house with torches demanding you surrender your guitar - that might be a sign that some time in the woodshed might be in order.
Mostly, have fun!
Thanks to everyone who chipped in with suggestions to my question. I never expected such a great response and it's given me lots to think about and I know it will help me to get going. Thanks also for the tips on tuition books - most helpful.
Lissaniska, thanks for the offer of showing me some of your chords - if you can send me some of those that would be great. If you are able to suggest a few tunes that you have chords for I could download the midi & abc files and get playing along with them.
Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Hi All,
I'm a newbie member and I'm wondering whether the accompanying guitar chords can be found to match all the great tunes you have here. Does ABC give you the chords or does that cover only the melody?
thanks for your time,
Donaidh
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by donaidh
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
If you download AbcMus and import your ABCs into that, there is a chords feature. The chords aren't always spot-on but they're a good start.
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Welcome to The Session, Donaidh. Choosing chords is a great deal of what makes accompaniment of this stuff very difficult and extremely personal. Most players will not put chords with their ABCs for this reason -- it's up to the player, the moment, and the crack at the time to choose which chords sound right to them.
We've got some threads in archives on the subject, if you search for "guitar chords", I'm sure you'll find them.
Have fun!
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Some good advice here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4892/comments#comment102999
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by BegF
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
One of the issues inherent in the previously referenced discussion is that you'll won't find consensus in choice of chords, or even whether accompanists should even play along with Irish melody players. However, for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that many tunes--not all, but perhaps most--can be accompanied by a chordal instrument.
Some tunes are quite easy to play chords to, and the best way is to figure it out by ear, if you're going to play sessions. If you know enough about music theory to figure out I/IV/V chords, then simply listen for the changes, and play along. Experimentation is good, but perhaps best pursued alone with a CD player or a computer until you're comfortable with the tunes.
There are some books and transcriptions that suggest chords. They can provide a good start, but I sometimes find that the chords can be misplaced or even wrong. Many commercial books of popular tunes will have chords over the measures, but it's only to provide guidance to amateur players.
Booklearning chords is one way of getting started, but what does an accompanist do when he or she hears a tune that's not familiar? The best thing to do there is to simply listen and not play. If you're experienced enough and you've got a good ear, and especially if you know something about scales and phrases, you can often figure out an appropriate chord. Often there's no "right" chord, but a choice of several. That's where the art comes in. A well-placed substitution can really light up a tune, but you kind of have to know what you're doing to do that.
Listen. Experiment. Watch other guitarists. Ask questions. Learn a melody instrument. If you're practicing with a fiddler or other melodist, ask them to slow a phrase down if you're not sure what to play. And play with tolerant players. It's hard enough to learn a new musical style w/o being slogged unmercifully to the point of going home sad.
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by Audeamus
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
If you use a bit of software called MidiNotate (I use it), when you download a midi file from the Session site or any other , then one click of the mouseand the software will display the chord most appropriate for the tune.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Justintime
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Hi again,
Thanks for all the tips - very helpful!
Can't help feeling dissapointed that there are no hard and fast rules on accompaniment though - makes it all the more difficult when it's such an individual thing!
Though I've just got into the Irish (and more so the Scottish!) way of playing I'm sort of comfortable in playing with my fiddle & accordion mates in most keys using the I-IV-V chord method. My problem is finding those chords that fall outwith that method and knowing when to insert them properly. I suppose some homework on substitution & relative minors could help - what a thought!
Does anyone know of any sites and/or books that can help me figure out how to make these well-placed substitutions or is it like most people are saying a case of learning the tunes and practising?
Donaidh
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by donaidh
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Now I stress this is not always the case but quite often the B part of a tune can switch to the relative minor. For example in a reel in D a pattern that I often find works is D - G - A for the first part and then Bm - F#m - G - A for the second part. A nice trick can be to step-up from the D to the G ie D - D/F# - G - A. The F# acts as a passing chord.
This does get awfully boring after a while however and does not always work so I would suggest finding your own way and figuring out what sounds nice depending on the style that the melody players have. Look for other chords that can have these aditional notes and passing chords eg D/C# and A/C#. It can make the accompaniment more interesting at times.
Good luck with this and if you figure it out could you let me know how to do it properly. You just might stop a session murder in the future *gulp*.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
The absence of a safety net of 'standard' chords can be frightening.But really the only way into playing this music is to develop your ear.Trusting your own ears to hear the changes as stevie says and developing this with practice.your chords will often feel too simple and uninventive but it's important to value this simplicity and slowly build on it letting substitution chords naturally find their way in rather than trying to impose them on tunes.This way of playing though a bit daunting at first can actually become a very liberating experience as i am just discovering myself.it teaches you above all to hear the tune first & hear your own accompaniment as a means to support & accent the tune.
There's a tutorial dvd by john doyle for guitar (drop d tuning) which can be found on the homespun website and a cd-rom also by j doyle from madfortrad.these can be useful although im not a great fan of doyle's playing.i think he sometimes lacks a bit of sensitivity and overplays completely but having said that some of his chord choices can be sublime.
Anyway,good luck.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by cunnla
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
John Doyle's video is very good on technique (assuming you like his technique, which some don't), but it does not really give any good insight on how to determine the proper chordal accompanyments. Coyotebanjo (Chris Smith) used to have an excellent page on his personal website about the theory of applying chords to Irish trad melodies, but my recollection is that he doesn't have that page up any more.
Here are some rules of thumb that I find helpful. I-IV-V often works for major tunes, with relative minor substitutions adding color. For dorian mode tunes (for a well known example Drowsy Maggie in E dorian), the typical A part chords are I-VII (e.g. Em-DM). For B parts you'll often see a shift in modes, e.g. Drowsy Maggie shifts to DM with D and A major chords in the B part.
Another rule of thumb, avoiding thirds never hurts, thus the partiality of many for DADGAD tuning. John Doyle uses standard tuning with drop-D but as his video shows he often doesn't play the third of any chord, making them more a collection of fifths than proper major or minor chords.
Good luck with it! Mark
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by markwilson
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
You might be interested in this thread, too, Donaidh -- http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/141
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
i'm prepared to pass on (my) chords to any particular tune you want advice on, on this thread even (in simple A & B parts or whatever)
i play 'open C', but love 'drop D', detest 'DADGAD' and am currently almost alien to 'standard', but at the end of the day, chords are chords
and to all tunesmiths and backers out there _'never underestimate the power of a chord'
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by lisaniska
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Open C is interesting, I'll try that. I know someone who does 5ths, like a mandocello (CGDAEB I think) which I also want to try sometime. I too love drop D and am no fan of DADGAD.
I was wrong about Chris Smith's site Donaidh. Here is a link to the page I was thinking of -- I think it has a wealth of good info on chordal accompanyments: http://www.geocities.com/coyotebanjo/instruction/impcontr.txt. Best, Mark
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by markwilson
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Check out Frank Kilkelly's "Accomapnying Irish Music on Guitar" instruction book and CD. It is by far the best I have come across. It covers a range of different tunings and gives some good advice re substitution and passing chords.
Cheers
Carl
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by CarlMcA
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
I'd tend to agree with Carl, if I was to pick one book to get it would be Frank Kilkelly's as it covers a wide range of ideas as well as tunings, Jazzy chords, droning, DADGAD etc.
Of course the best advice anyone will give you is don't backup a tune unless you know it....at least be able to hum it, but try and learn the melodys either on guitar or get a melody instrument and learn a few tunes, you'll be surprised how much it will help your backing.
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by BegF
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
To throw in my two cents, it's not always a matter of knowing the standard "substitutions". Chord choice can sometimes be quite ambiguous in Irish music. I also would take issue with any software that shows the chords "most appropriate" for a tune. While for many tunes the choice of chords seems quite clear, for many others there are several different paths that may be taken.
For instance, there's a spot in Swallowtail Jig were everyone normally plays an Em. I play an A, which is not a normal "substitution" chord. It is, however, every bit as "appropriate" musically as the Em. This sort of thing doesn't work for Johnny B. Goode, but it's one of the things that makes Irish music so unique.
I normally play melody on my octave mandolin, but when I do accompaniment, I build my chords on the melody and what works for me as I listen to and play the tune. Often, when I later look up the "common" chords there will be significant differences. Any yet each works equally well. My point is that you can find common chordal accompaniment to most of the popular tunes, but with this music you shouldn't limit yourself to that. Which, incidently, is one of the reasons that more than one accompaniment instrument in sessions is not advised.
Mick
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by Craymcla
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
My backing musicians have nearly all had a smattering of jazz and put the chords in by listening to a lot of ITM and mentally working out the chords. They don't play the melody, but they say that knowing the tune well enough to hum or whistle, helps greatly in knowing where to put "interesting" chords.
So it possibly still boils down to learning tunes rather than chord sequences?
# Posted on January 9th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
I would agree with Geoff, it definitely is not about learning chord sequences, although that can be a useful set of training wheels. It's about learning to hear where the tune is and where it's going to.
My suggestion is to listen for a single note that underlies a given phrase and focus on that. Chords will come from those key notes. It won't always be the root of the chord, often the melody will make that so obvious there's no real point in your hammering on it as well. It might be the dreaded third, it might be the root of the relative minor of the "obvious chord" (if the melody spells out a D-F#-A, a B under that puts in some needed tension, as long as you get around to resolving it). Listen to the accompanists on your favorite records and try to work out what they're doing and whether you like that or not. (The High Part of the Road is great for this, with the nice stereo split between Peoples and Brady)
Some general rules, which might be helpful:
Don't be afraid to make mistakes, but don't make too many too loudly. Don't be afraid of dissonance, but get some consonance in there once in a while as well for variety. Don't be afraid of syncopation, but let us know you're aware of the beat from time to time. Don't be afraid to stand out a little, but make sure it's seldom enough to stand out. Don't be afraid of dynamics, it's nice when the guitar drops out a little. Do be afraid of dynamics if by dynamics you mean playing really loud all the time. Whatever you do, someone will always complain about your playing, so listen to criticism greacefully and don't go home and hang yourself with a guitar string if someone compares one of your pet chords to "a dagger in my heart"(a quote from James Kelly, I think). On the other hand, when the rest of the session deserts to another bar without telling you, or comes to your house with torches demanding you surrender your guitar - that might be a sign that some time in the woodshed might be in order.
Mostly, have fun!
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Can I find Guitar Chords on this site?
Hi,
Thanks to everyone who chipped in with suggestions to my question. I never expected such a great response and it's given me lots to think about and I know it will help me to get going. Thanks also for the tips on tuition books - most helpful.
Lissaniska, thanks for the offer of showing me some of your chords - if you can send me some of those that would be great. If you are able to suggest a few tunes that you have chords for I could download the midi & abc files and get playing along with them.
Cheers,
Donaidh
# Posted on January 10th 2005 by donaidh