Hey. So we all know that most of the music on this site and a good portion of Irish music in general is dance music.
I've been to a few contradances, but no real Irish dances. I have a few questions. Can you tell me, are they similar?
And tunes...tunes, such as The Old Grey Goose. Lovely lovely jig, but it has 5 or more parts (I can't be bothered to count at the moment). How does a tune like that fit in dancing? Is it even a dance tune? I can imagine dancing to it, but mind you, I play a rather somber-but-driving version of it. (Driving not as in a car, but as in drive). Perhaps others play a more fluty version on the fiddle or whatnot...
A long tune, like The Old Grey Goose (6 parts BTW, each of 16 bars) could in principle be used in set dances. A set dance generally consists of a number of "figures", each of which has its own specific number of bars to match the dancers' movements in that figure. Some figures might be reels, others, hornpipes, polkas or jigs. The Old Grey Goose, with its 96 bars, could therefore be ideally suited for a set dance figure with that number of bars.
Most reels, jigs etc have 32 bars in total (or 16 if they are the "single" variety). Unfortunately, some set dance figures aren't exact multiples of 32 or 16 so the band leader has to find a combination of tunes that fits the dancing. If necessary, a tune might be shortened by leaving out a repeat or a number of bars to meet the dance length objective. Ideally, the music and the dancing should finish together. It's slightly embarrassing if they don't - if the band plays on, the dancers stand and clap the tune out; if the band finishes early Plan B goes into operation and the 2nd half of the last tune gets an extra play.
I was playing once for dancers dancing the Ballyvourney, a set dance with a jig rhythm. The ad hoc band couldn't agree on a suitable set of jigs so we ended up playing the Brosna slide God knows how many times until the dance finished (I now know the Brosna slide *extremely* well). It didn't matter to the dancers because as far as they are concerned the important thing is the speed, drive and rhythm of the music .
I'd recommend playing for set dancers any time - it's easily the best way to play and enjoy the music, and you always know it's at the correct speed. If you get the opportunity, take it!
Trevor
To help solve the problem of dances not adding up to 16 - 32 bars it is common to play the first part of the first tune 3 times adding another 8 or 16 bars as required and then workout the remaining. Playing for dancers is quit easy once you know what they want. There are only a handful of popular set dances that are popular and its simply a case of learning the lenght of the figures in jig, reel, polka, hornpipe time and so on.
Years ago I used to play for dancers all the time and found after awhile I would be able to get the lenght of the dance and the speed without to much effort.
Hmmm. "Real Irish dances" -- well, that would depend. Mainly on whether the dance was mainly for set dancers or ceili dancers, or even stepdancers (and if so, whether sean-nos or Southern/Munster style stepdancing, or Connemara step, or whatever).
I'd say the vast majority of social dancing parties right now are set dancing, which means what Trevor and John are talking about. Contradances, which are generally called (though not always), are a little closer to ceili dancing, which dances are also usually called these days (though not always) -- set dancing is generally really only for Those Who Know, since most sets are more complicated than ceili dances.
For set dances, see Trev and John's posts.
For ceili dancing, the caller will generally tell you whether they want reels or jigs and give you a speed, and you can keep playing until the dancers give out (I've *never* seen the dancers outlast the musicians) or the caller gets tired of calling the thing, or whatever. There's a couple of exceptions, like the dance The Three Tunes (which is danced to three different tunes, Haste to the Wedding being one of them and the other two escaping me just at the mo). For the dances found in the Rince Forne (ie, the dances official to the curriculum of An Coimisiun), there's sometimes specific tunes given for a dance, but, in reality, you can generally give them any tune in the correct meter and the dancers won't care so long as you give them fun stuff to dance to.
For stepdancing of most kinds, a dancer needs the first part played once as an intro (usually of 8 bars, unless it's a set dance -- different from set dancing -- in which case it might be crooked), and then 16 bars for each step they are dancing -- the first eight for the right foot of the step, and the next eight for the left foot of the step. Some musicians like to play AAA BB AA BB, etc., whereas others prefer to play AA BB AA BB AA BB A. (The latter is found more often among the older players.) Most dancers who compete need enough music for two steps, so you'd play AAA BB AA BB, if you want to start and end with the dancer(s).
Most stepdancers who are not champions will ask for one of the traditional set dances (The Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day, whatever), the champions will generally not ask you to play for their non-traditional sets, because most of them are aware that not only is it possible that you won't know their set, but it might also be difficult to hit the correct tempo for their choreographed set. Usually they'll ask ahead of time if you have their set.
But keep an eye out for when the dancer starts dancing. If they start when you start playing, just play the AA BB if they wanted to steps. If they don't start dancing after 8 measures, either they're confused or...well, they're confused, so when they finally do start dancing, count the measures from there that you need.
Hope that helps some. We've discussed playing for dancers quite a bit in the past, so you might want to do a couple of searches in the archives for more info.
Older musicians will tell you that in the olden days one tune was played for a figure of a set. The practice of playing a selection of tunes for a figure is a fairly recent (40years) advance. Therefore to have a 3,4,or 5 part tune was very handy for playing for the longer figures of a set.
With regards tempo music for sets should be played at no faster than when playing for no dancers. Ceili dancers like the music faster and put pressure on musicians. Since most of the newcommers to set dancing came from ceili dancing they have succeeded in increasing the tempo much to the annoyance of "real" setdancers and musicians. The dancing and the music are linked very strongly in Co. Clare and the best band for set-dancers in Ireland is the Tulla ceili band who have been on the go now for more than 50 years. They have not compromised their style and it is great to see that in the Willie Clancy festival the biggest crowds of dancers attend the Tulla dances. As regards tempo I believe you should not be tapping you foot faster than 1 beat a second. But remember speed is not everything you need to have "lift" and good phrasing which often gets overlooked . Take a listen to the Tulla 40 years album
This probably explains why there are so many parts in the Kilfenora Reels which are always played for set dancers in Clare! Have to agree about the Tulla Céilí Band who have played the opening céilí at Fleadh Nua down in Ennis for as long as I can remember. Not being a dancer, this is one of the few bands you can sit and listen to all night because of the great lift in their music and equally their choice of tunes.
Oops, that's what I get for posting late at night, Dave, for two steps for one dancer, you'd need to play AAA BB, NOT AAA BB AA BB, which is what you'd play for two steps for two dancers with no wait in between.
When talking of tempo I meant to say 1 bar per second is in my view the fastest one should be playing for Clare sets (reels) . The Tulla playing Imelda Rolands and changing into Creggs pipes would make the dead get up and start dancing.
dancing
dancing
Hey. So we all know that most of the music on this site and a good portion of Irish music in general is dance music.
I've been to a few contradances, but no real Irish dances. I have a few questions. Can you tell me, are they similar?
And tunes...tunes, such as The Old Grey Goose. Lovely lovely jig, but it has 5 or more parts (I can't be bothered to count at the moment). How does a tune like that fit in dancing? Is it even a dance tune? I can imagine dancing to it, but mind you, I play a rather somber-but-driving version of it. (Driving not as in a car, but as in drive). Perhaps others play a more fluty version on the fiddle or whatnot...
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by sifudave54
Re: dancing
This is a very complicated answer, and I'll have to answer it later when I have more time. Anybody else got the time right now?
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: dancing
A long tune, like The Old Grey Goose (6 parts BTW, each of 16 bars) could in principle be used in set dances. A set dance generally consists of a number of "figures", each of which has its own specific number of bars to match the dancers' movements in that figure. Some figures might be reels, others, hornpipes, polkas or jigs. The Old Grey Goose, with its 96 bars, could therefore be ideally suited for a set dance figure with that number of bars.
Most reels, jigs etc have 32 bars in total (or 16 if they are the "single" variety). Unfortunately, some set dance figures aren't exact multiples of 32 or 16 so the band leader has to find a combination of tunes that fits the dancing. If necessary, a tune might be shortened by leaving out a repeat or a number of bars to meet the dance length objective. Ideally, the music and the dancing should finish together. It's slightly embarrassing if they don't - if the band plays on, the dancers stand and clap the tune out; if the band finishes early Plan B goes into operation and the 2nd half of the last tune gets an extra play.
I was playing once for dancers dancing the Ballyvourney, a set dance with a jig rhythm. The ad hoc band couldn't agree on a suitable set of jigs so we ended up playing the Brosna slide God knows how many times until the dance finished (I now know the Brosna slide *extremely* well). It didn't matter to the dancers because as far as they are concerned the important thing is the speed, drive and rhythm of the music .
I'd recommend playing for set dancers any time - it's easily the best way to play and enjoy the music, and you always know it's at the correct speed. If you get the opportunity, take it!
Trevor
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by lazyhound
Re: dancing
To help solve the problem of dances not adding up to 16 - 32 bars it is common to play the first part of the first tune 3 times adding another 8 or 16 bars as required and then workout the remaining. Playing for dancers is quit easy once you know what they want. There are only a handful of popular set dances that are popular and its simply a case of learning the lenght of the figures in jig, reel, polka, hornpipe time and so on.
Years ago I used to play for dancers all the time and found after awhile I would be able to get the lenght of the dance and the speed without to much effort.
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: dancing
Hmmm. "Real Irish dances" -- well, that would depend. Mainly on whether the dance was mainly for set dancers or ceili dancers, or even stepdancers (and if so, whether sean-nos or Southern/Munster style stepdancing, or Connemara step, or whatever).
I'd say the vast majority of social dancing parties right now are set dancing, which means what Trevor and John are talking about. Contradances, which are generally called (though not always), are a little closer to ceili dancing, which dances are also usually called these days (though not always) -- set dancing is generally really only for Those Who Know, since most sets are more complicated than ceili dances.
For set dances, see Trev and John's posts.
For ceili dancing, the caller will generally tell you whether they want reels or jigs and give you a speed, and you can keep playing until the dancers give out (I've *never* seen the dancers outlast the musicians) or the caller gets tired of calling the thing, or whatever. There's a couple of exceptions, like the dance The Three Tunes (which is danced to three different tunes, Haste to the Wedding being one of them and the other two escaping me just at the mo). For the dances found in the Rince Forne (ie, the dances official to the curriculum of An Coimisiun), there's sometimes specific tunes given for a dance, but, in reality, you can generally give them any tune in the correct meter and the dancers won't care so long as you give them fun stuff to dance to.
For stepdancing of most kinds, a dancer needs the first part played once as an intro (usually of 8 bars, unless it's a set dance -- different from set dancing -- in which case it might be crooked), and then 16 bars for each step they are dancing -- the first eight for the right foot of the step, and the next eight for the left foot of the step. Some musicians like to play AAA BB AA BB, etc., whereas others prefer to play AA BB AA BB AA BB A. (The latter is found more often among the older players.) Most dancers who compete need enough music for two steps, so you'd play AAA BB AA BB, if you want to start and end with the dancer(s).
Most stepdancers who are not champions will ask for one of the traditional set dances (The Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day, whatever), the champions will generally not ask you to play for their non-traditional sets, because most of them are aware that not only is it possible that you won't know their set, but it might also be difficult to hit the correct tempo for their choreographed set. Usually they'll ask ahead of time if you have their set.
But keep an eye out for when the dancer starts dancing. If they start when you start playing, just play the AA BB if they wanted to steps. If they don't start dancing after 8 measures, either they're confused or...well, they're confused, so when they finally do start dancing, count the measures from there that you need.
Hope that helps some. We've discussed playing for dancers quite a bit in the past, so you might want to do a couple of searches in the archives for more info.
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: dancing
Older musicians will tell you that in the olden days one tune was played for a figure of a set. The practice of playing a selection of tunes for a figure is a fairly recent (40years) advance. Therefore to have a 3,4,or 5 part tune was very handy for playing for the longer figures of a set.
With regards tempo music for sets should be played at no faster than when playing for no dancers. Ceili dancers like the music faster and put pressure on musicians. Since most of the newcommers to set dancing came from ceili dancing they have succeeded in increasing the tempo much to the annoyance of "real" setdancers and musicians. The dancing and the music are linked very strongly in Co. Clare and the best band for set-dancers in Ireland is the Tulla ceili band who have been on the go now for more than 50 years. They have not compromised their style and it is great to see that in the Willie Clancy festival the biggest crowds of dancers attend the Tulla dances. As regards tempo I believe you should not be tapping you foot faster than 1 beat a second. But remember speed is not everything you need to have "lift" and good phrasing which often gets overlooked . Take a listen to the Tulla 40 years album
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by murcu
Re: dancing
This probably explains why there are so many parts in the Kilfenora Reels which are always played for set dancers in Clare! Have to agree about the Tulla Céilí Band who have played the opening céilí at Fleadh Nua down in Ennis for as long as I can remember. Not being a dancer, this is one of the few bands you can sit and listen to all night because of the great lift in their music and equally their choice of tunes.
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by Bannerman
Re: dancing
Wow! Thanks for the awesome replies!
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by sifudave54
Errata
Oops, that's what I get for posting late at night, Dave, for two steps for one dancer, you'd need to play AAA BB, NOT AAA BB AA BB, which is what you'd play for two steps for two dancers with no wait in between.
# Posted on January 6th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: dancing
When talking of tempo I meant to say 1 bar per second is in my view the fastest one should be playing for Clare sets (reels) . The Tulla playing Imelda Rolands and changing into Creggs pipes would make the dead get up and start dancing.
# Posted on January 7th 2005 by murcu