okay, so I've heard recordings that have mandolins in them, and the instrument sounds really good. I myself just got a mandolin for christmas and love the instrument to pieces, but I'm a little shy to take it to the Irish session because I've not seen one there yet. Do you think the mandolin is a good Irish session instrument, or should I just stick to my fiddle?
Yes. I play mando at the trad sessions. I try to compliment the music . I try to think how a dadgad instrument might fill. 99% of the time when I hear other mando players in this setting, they have little skill and just go fling....fling...on a simple first position chord. And it's fine because they do not know how to get volume out of their usually cheaper end mandos. They are totally drowned out. So they are ver benign. The other end of it is when you follow along playing the melody. Very hard to keep it up because of the mechanics involved. Also very hard to keep it as smooth as the button pushers or hole tappers. Quite the challenge to find your spot. It's currently my number one instrument. But I would do otherwise if me fiddle playing was good enough, sigh...maybe in another 5 years. It works well for accompanying the vocal tunes though.
I love the Mandolin to bits too, oh yes! Melody is where it's at. The tuning isn't too cool for nice chord voicings anyway, methinks. Tuned GDAD, you'll probably sound nicer with chords but I bought mine to play melody so GDAE is the way for me.
Worry not about having seen one in a session. Not a lot of people know this but Mandolins pre-date banjos in Irish sessions anyway. I think the old roundbacks may have been a little too flimsy in those days, dropped to pieces and became obscure. They were probably even harder to play back then too (imagine that!) and wouldn't have sounded as sweet as modern, flat-backs, bless 'em.
They sound good in recordings so they're going to sound good playing the music in any setting, wouldn't you think?
Now and again, I've been in sessions in Manchester with other Mandolin players and I've been able to sit out and listen without the distraction of the 'mechanics' of playing. I think a well played Mandolin can add something of value to a session. You're a fiddle player and you love the Mandolin to bits, Seng, so why shouldn't anyone else love it to bits just like us, eh?
Get really good at playing one set and introduce the sound with that as a change from your fiddle. I'll bet it goes well. If anyone doesn't like it, just ignore it and feel pity for their blackened and withered souls, poor things. *hee hee*
I'm interested in which model you're playing and which woods it's made from (and you, Salt - and anyone else too).
We have a mandolin playing regular at our sessions-he sounds great playing melody on such as "Merrily Kissed the Quaker, Dr. Oneill's, Lark In the Morning, Etc." If it is a tune he doesn't know the melody for, he lightly chords. On some of the reels, like "Bucks of Oranmore" he gets an interesting chop rhythm going. Definitely an asset.
I played mandolin for years at sessions, and theres no better instrument, for all the reasons mentioned above. I allways tune GDAE, and if your'e coming from a fiddle background, theres no point in overcomplicating things with strange tunings. The beauty of a mandolin playing melody is that you're never going to get up anybody's nose, cos it's so quiet. Best of luck seng.
Mandolin' s my main session instrument. I also play tenor banjo at sessions. But mandolin' s nice for melody and backing (very convenient for tunes i know by hearing, but can' t play). But I would not advise to do this kind of chordbacking on the tenorbanjo...
I love the mandolin at a session (of course, I'm a bit biased) though I like playing the fiddle too. Certain tunes sound great on the mandolin, eg jigs, hornpipes, etc whereas reels are probably easier on the fiddle if you are a good fiddler, that is. Unfortunately, I have been playing the mandolin much longer so they are still easier on this instrument. I should really focus more on the fiddle in fast sessions but it's so easy to fall back on the mandolin sometimes. You can also play slower tunes like waltzes and airs on the mandolin but these require a lot more work to sound really interesting.
I'm not too sure about chords and backing on the mandolin. Perhaps, I've been concentrating on melody to the detriment of backing but I find that only certain tunes benefit to any great extent. As has been suggested, the chord voicings are a bit more limited although you can experiment with different tuunings. However, an octave mandola or bouzouki would probably be more suitable.
Mandolins have several advantages: they are usually quiet and if you are in a new session you can still make mistakes and not feel like a fool since no one will hear you anyway .
Second, There are a lot of interesting chords and fills you can use especially "power chords" (Root and fifth) which are easy to produce in the standard tuning of GDAE.
Most important, they are very portable and you can take them on the plane with you whereas the tenor banjo is not always welcomed either on the plane or in a session.
There is no mandolin tradition in ITM as far as I can see so you can try out a host of techniques including inverted chords and even the occasional bluegrass chop (just don't do that too often, it is distracting) as the muse moves you.
And, as Oscar Wilde said about the pipes, "At least it doesn't smell."
I play both mandolin and fiddle, although I've have played mandolin for a longer time than the fiddle, so am pretty comfortable on it. I love the fiddle to bits, but am still cutting my teeth on it.
I like playing melody on the mandolin, (rarely play chords...I'd rather leave that to a good guitarist or bouzouki player) especially when there's a large group of fiddles and pipes playing a certain tune, and I want to introduce a different texture in that big sea of sound. Although it is a quiet instrument, it's amazing how well it does project in the pub (I've been told) ....even if I can't hear too well what I'm playing myself! Although I can only put up with that for so long--it's too frustrating.
I love playing hornpipes, waltzes and some jigs on ithe mando...but rarely reels.....it gets too exhausting in a session situation. Reels are so much more fluid and satisfying on the fiddle anyway!
Anyway....some tunes fit beautifully on the mandolin (especially tunes with lots of string crossings and arpeggios) and some are just meant to be played on the fiddle...so i go back and forth between the two, sometimes even within a set of tunes.
Work on a really nice set on your mandolin, so it's really solid, and then play it at the session during a lull.....and you'll blow them away!
Tell you what I think works really well on the Mandolin... Ignore all that advice about avoiding reels, some are brilliant on the Mandolin. I find reels in A sound really bright and funky (well, I would, woudn't I?). Try the version of /The Black Haired Lass/ in O'Neill's or the excellent /Eel in the Sink/. Come to think of it, another belter /Jenny's Chickens/ has three sharps too and sounds 'proper bright' (as we say in these parts), thought it's Bm (dorian).
Knock 'em dead with some Ed Reavy - /Maudebawn Chapel/ rocks its socks off on the Mandolin. For a nice contrast, send 'em into raptures with a moderately paced rendition of /The Girl who Broke my Heart/ in Gm
If reels are played well too fast at your session, start a set off at your own pace. It'll do 'em good to hear how good they can sound a little slower anyway. We knew a box player whom we thought must've hated the tunes because he couldn't wait to get to the end of them. Tendonitis slowed him down, eventually.
I played the mandolin first. Then moved to the banjo. Mandolins are not played as much in sessions because they get drowned out. If you want to hear yourself and to be heard in a large loud session play the banjo Almost all mandolin players play the banjo. If you do play the mandolin it helps to have a good loud mandolin that projects also you need the skill to make it project. The best mandolins for sessions that I have found are the flat army/navy model Flatirons. They are loud and have a nice open sound. They are also cheap. Another good cheap vintage mandolin is the Stradolin ( must have a spruce top ). People are getting smart about both of these so they are getting harder to find.
For performances, dances and recording projectioin and volume are not a problem because the sound is enhanced.
Ok, I have to chime in here. The mandolin is a gorgeous instrument that any tune can be played on. I have the pleasure of playing sessions with Marla Fibish, who can drive the session without any problem -- and she's not amplified. Her strength is awesome, and her rhythm and tempos are impeccable. Anyone who doubts the qualities of the mandolin is just lacking the experience of being in the presence of someone like her. The only tunes she doesn't like to play are slow airs or anything that requires a sustained tone. She refuses to use tremolo. But anything else is fair game.
We just recorded a set (warts and all) round at a mate's house to see how well it fitted together. The microphone was pointing at the banjoist who was nearest to it. Next to him was a fiddler and then there was a Lowden (loud 'un) SAD-DAD guitar in line with the mic. I was sideways on to it and a little farther away. You might think I had no chance, but it's a clear as a bell - and I wasn't bashing it to bits either.
There's a big difference between sitting behind one and being in front of one. They tend not to project well backwards and the sound has to travel sideways, relative to the instrument, and upwards, relative to ground, to reach the ears of the player directly (assuming the player is still upright-ish). Don't let this fool you into thinking that they can't be heard across the room. *hee hee*
I you don't like playing reels on a mandolin, my advice is to play another instrument. Reels sound excellent on a mandolin as well as all other types of tunes. GDAE is the best bet for tuning, I use FDAE which is just a personal difference. I know some others who use this also. Declan Corey is perhaps Irelands best and can be found on Joesphine marsh recordings and may others as well. When Declan plays in a session you hear him and he hears himself.
MiKeys, I really don't know what you mean by no traditon of mandolin in Irish music. I can't agree with you on this one. Mandolin is around in Irish music a lot longer than Banjo, guitar or Accordian
History corner: Mandolins became popular in American music around the turn of the century (the previous turn of the century, if you want to be precise) (although they did get revived right around the last turn of the century, which is probably often enough...) when a Spanish mandolin orchestra had a very popular tour. This led to a mandolin orchestra craze, which is why we have the the mandolas, mando-cellos, octave mandolins, and mandobasses - I had the privelege of playing mandobass in the Portland Mandolin Orchestra for a few years, and if you've never tried it, you can't imagine how much fun that was. This was also responsible for the Gibson company, which was originally (I believe) a mandolin company, and later moved on to guitars. Gibson developed the flat-back mandolin, based on the violin's carved back, which produced a much louder and brighter sound. The Gibson-style instruments were then adopted by Southeastern string bands and some blues players (Yank Rachell is a prime example) and used to found bluegrass, and were then ignored, more or less, until the Oh Bother revival, except by folkies.
So when does the mandolin enter ITM? The only example of mandolin that I have on recording prior to Irvine and Brady (there were others around at that time- I know John Pearse tells a story of swapping a Greek bouzouki for a mandolin with a member of Sweeney's Men whose name I can't recall - the bouzouki had had its round back broken into bits, and repaired with a flat back, which is where the Irish bouzouki comes from, per Pearse, who was there and I wasn't so I'm not going to argue but only end the digression herewith and posthaste before it drowns out the rest of the post to which it is not expecially related) is Father O'Keefe's set from the Paddy in the Smoke album, and that sounds like a roundback, probably picked up in Italy. Does anyone else have a citation of the mandolin in trad music prior to Paddy in the Smoke? And do you know whether the back was carved or coopered? That would help to clear up the origin and provenance of the instrument in trad.
My speculation is that, barring deviant cases like Father O'Keefe, the mandolin's entry into ITM occured in the States, sometime during or after the folk scare of the sixties, of which O'Keefe may even have been a part, come to think of it. I could be wrong, but I can't think of a mandolin player before the sixties. Guitar, of course, appears on some of Coleman's tracks and on Hugh Gillespie's as well, and the box is at least back to that period. Banjo as a melody instrument is probably more recent. Tenor was very popular as a rhythm instrument, with ocasional chord-melody breaks, in early jazz bands, but never playing melody that I know of. Does anyone have any ideas as to the origins of the tenor banjo as an ITM solo instrument? I don't.
But I don't think that I can agree that mandolin predates guitar or box in ITM without some sort of citation of an earlier player. I say it's probably the yanks' fault, and it happened in the seventies.
And yes, before you ask, my theme song for the evening is "Didn't He Ramble". And yes, I play a 1917 Gibson model A, sometimes even in sessions.
The banjo comes from the African Re-bob as far as I know. It has been around for thousands of years. It has one string that one uses the back of the fingernail to manipulate the pitch. The resonating chamber is round and the neck is long. Attempts to duplicate the instrument by slaves eventually led to a banjo-like instrument we’re familiar with today. The melodies were based on pentatonic scales including what later became known as "blue notes.” The rhythmical structure was very complicated and to the average listener appeared to be unstructured. It was the close proximity with Irish slaves who's music inspired the 8-bar structure that eventually led to New Orleans style jazz that the banjo is associated with. It was in fact the fusion of African and Irish music that contributed a great deal to the early development of jazz.
There's an historic recording of a New Orleans style jazz band playing the Sally Gardens that was featured on Ken Burn's documentary about jazz. It was my personal study of ethnic music that led to my understanding of this link with the re-bob/banjo and Irish music. I'm not certain, but I believe that tap dancing is also a result of the close proximity between Irish and African slaves during the 19th Century.
I think the comment about no tradition of Mandolin refers more to style than usage.
Also, flatbacks were around in Europe way before the Gibson brothers's father was a twinkle in their grandfather's eye (so to speak). The roundback was known as the Neopolitan, the flatter one was known as the Milanese.
Mandolins were used in sessions in Ireland long, long before in America and way before electricity, let alone recording technology. Usually, they had been brought back by soldiers who had been fighting in European campaigns. Hence, my comment above about it pre-dating the banjo (in sessions, not in existence). I think John K is referring to its re-entry (and he's talking about America). I agree with compaqjohn on this one.
The Tenor became popular in ITM after its tuning was re-arranged to facilitate the playing of melody. Interesting that it should have transformed by adopting the tuning of the Fiddle and Mandolin, don't you think? *hee hee*. Oh, and notwithstanding the comments by John about African slaves and Irish, don't neglect the possibility that the Clog Dancing tradition of Northern England had some bearing on the development of tap, but all this is besides the point...
Back on topic: Do we think the Mandolin is a good Irish session instrument?
I think it's obvious that we do. We, here, all agree that the modern Mandolin is as sweet as a nut and has its place in the tradition. I mean, lets face it, the only instrument of Irish origin is/are the Uilleann Pipes - so ALL the rest have been adopted. Let's keep on introducing the Mandolin for, as far as I'm concerned, they are a joy.
okay, so I've heard recordings that have kazoos in them, and the instrument sounds really good. I myself just got a kazoo for christmas and love the instrument to pieces, but I'm a little shy to take it to the Irish session because I've not seen one there yet. Do you think the kazoo is a good Irish session instrument, or should I just stick to my didgeridoo?
To paraphrase Sean O Riada's essay on tradtional music, banjo and mandolin are played by those who lack the musical dexterity and sensitivity to play the fiddle.
While this cannot be disputed, it should be noted that fiddles are also played by such people.
I've also encountered many good fiddlers who are no great shakes on the mandolin. Fair enough, I'm sure they would be able to play well with a bit of practice but, although they can find the notes(same fingering) they don't all get it.
It's funny but every time I see a fiddler play the occasional mando or guitar bit, they play very cleanly, quiet ,and precise yet, well.... over-rehearsed and no balls. Very technical but ZZZzzzzzzzzzz.
Give me a reformed rock n roller to back you up or pick a tune anyday.
Above was a reference to tenor banjos in jazz bands. Actually, from what I have seen, most of the banjoes played with jazz were plectrum banjoes, four strings, but with a longer neck -- the same length as the five-string banjoes used today in Bluegrass. I have one myself, which I don't take to sessions, but do play in church sometimes (there is nothing that gets an entire congregation singing on the beat like a banjo accompanying them). Because of the wider fret spacing, it is difficult to play melody fast on a plectrum banjo like you can on a tenor.
AL Brown
I play mandolin in sessions all the time. It's main drawback is that you have to play the hell out of it to get volume, and even then it's pretty easy for a noisy session or audience to drown you out. That's when you get out the banjo.
For whomever asked:
I play a Flatiron A-5 jr. This is the lower end of their carved mandos, but still expensive. It sweet. It was made in Bozeman, MT before Gibson bought them out and moved to the factory to Nashville. Bruce Weber signed it. So I think of it as a Weber sorta. It's got a big bark too for that bluegrass chop. But I try to stay away from the lower end tones with the irish stuff. Wish I had a zouki.
I'm not sure you're new to fretted instruments, but in case you are (or another of the readers are) I wanted to share some experience with the mandolin from a little further down the path you're on.
I have been playing mandolin (my first instrument) for about a year and a half or so. I've been fairly diligent and focused about it (every day practicing etc). I've gotten "pretty good" for my living room. I can play jigs at tempo. I have internalized a DUDDUD pick pattern to give jigs a nice feel. I can play hornpipes with the correct bounce (dotted eighth + sixteenth rather than double eighth) and mostly at tempo (call it 160 vs the fast session pace of about 180). I cannot play a single reel at 220. I cannot do really up-to-speed picked triplets. I can do hammer-on-pull-off style triplets ok, though. Not as elegant sounding but it gets me from point A to point B. Now remember, this is where I am after 18 months of hardcore practice (call it 30-60 minutes per day), lessons, and a little luck.
The first point, thus, is "Don't expect to get a Christmas mandolin and go out to play at a session up to speed tomorrow."
Next up, ear vs notation. I've lived this argument for every single day of my eighteen months. I've come to the conclusion that my path (tab/standard notation mostly) was NOT the right path. Learn your instrument by ear. Notation (tab/standard) is a very nice way to learn tunes in your living room. And if all you want to do is play in your living room, then go right ahead. If you want to play with people at a session, however, being able to "hear" a song and play it is about a million times more powerful. And going TO a "by ear" method FROM a notation stance (as opposed to the other way around, potentially) is VERY VERY VERY hard. Believe me. I'm doing it now and it's like I'm starting over from scratch.
So, second point: "Learn to play a tune by ear and learning the instrument, not just how to read standard/tab."
Finally, speed is VERY hard past a certain point on the mando. See an earlier comment: It comes down to mechanics; a simple physics issue. It can be done, obviously, but it's hard. Hard enough, for the record, that I'm actually giving some serious thought to taking up flute just so I can keep up.
So, you mando folks out there who have been doing it for longer, please help me believe it will get easier so I don't toss a couple years of mando practice down the drain!
Dunno keytonw, I've been playing mando for 30 years and technically I'm still about where you're at if your description is correct. Except for DUDDUD for jigs, still haven't mastered that. Old dog, new tricks etc.
If the flutes and whistles go too fast (i.e Belfast Hornpipe ye b@st@rds, you know the bit, think it's funny to do those legato descending triplets at the speed of light) then I just leave out a few notes and still manage to beat them to the finish.
Where it has got better is that I'm very comfortable with the instrument and have had lots of fun at sessions over the years. Sometimes I even get allowed back into the same one, or perhaps they don't remember me.
I have to agree with Sean O Riada - I definitely lack the sensitivity or dexterity to play the fiddle. And the psychopathic tendencies.
A louder mandolin is great as you don't have to bash hell out of it trying to hear and be heard. Even if you've got a quieter one - try getting to the sesh early and having a quiet tune with just you and a fiddle or whistle, or stay late when people start to drift away (they do that sometimes you know)
Stick with it, it's a great little instrument. Even better when it's in tune.
Playing the trebles at speed in reels. Now there's a topic. I wonder what picking approach various players adopt for this task. I worked out a technique and later found it to be the one Simon Mayor uses. I've experimented with a couple of techniques and, at one point, I used one technique in sessions where reels have swing and another where they were being played with even quavers (as some people do). I don't play the Banjo so I've no experience of that technique and adopting it to the Mandolin.
I wonder how other players approach this. Pray tell, it could be interesting. I'm flexible in my approach to try anything. I'm always open to suggestions that are physically possible and don't entail me enduring too much pain and embarassment - so keep them clean and on topic, please. *heh heh*
Should this be the topic for a new thread, maybe, or should we carry on with it here? It could get long and involved for I'm not just interested in the how but also the why - the pros, the cons, etc.
As for Shaun O Riada and that, particular opinion of his... ... ... ... ...
Yep, it's easier to go fast on flute and whistle--fingers on boths hands doing essentially the same things (lifting off and coming down on little holes), and relatively small motions at that. Of course, it's also plenty easy to play fast and sound like sh*te on flute/whistle. But there's no harm in learning flute/whistle while you continue on mandolin. That way, you can pick along on some tunes, and switch to blowing when someone trots out the Belfast Hornpipe.
Speed on mandolin or any other plectrum instrument is mostly a matter of keeping the picking wrist loose and relaxed (or, a less common but still legitimate approach for some, locking the wrist and moving the whole forearm), and making the picking motion as small as possible to produce the desired notes and sound. Many people tend to take a bigger swing at the string when they play louder, so it's important to practice tone and volume production with consciously smaller movements.
It's true a mandolin is quieter. If you're new to the instrument and not really confident with it, you may get an unsettled feeling from not being able to hear yourself. And starting a tune is downright impossible in a large assembly.
But the mandolin as an ensemble instrument adds a dimension that can sometimes be lacking from a bow, blow, press assemblage: it can be percussive. It has attack, which can add very pleasant accents. It has little sustain and fast decay, so it can't drone on and overwhelm. With the short scale length, once you master the instrument you should eventually be able to set the fret board on fire and keep up with the fiddles.
It has chording potential. I've learned that the right chords at the right moments wake the music up and it feels fresh. What's funny: Because the instrument is so demure, few players realize the accents are coming from the mandolin - They think they're just playing especially well tonight. And then, by golly, they do!
Mandos are great in sessions - regarding the roundback/flat back issue: the roundbacks definitely have a sweeter tone, but they are quieter.
I would certainly be one of those fiddle players that 'doesn't get it' though - I find the fingering is okay, but I need to spend a LOT more time learning how to use the pick properly!
Ah well, I don't agree but I'm not knocking your opinion. I respect it.
I think really well made flatbacks are sweeter but well, it will depend on the woods, your particular, personal preference (which is why I respect your opinion) and whether you've heard all the flatbacks and all the roundbacks (or, at least, a shed-load of different ones) - I haven't. I prefer the better flatbacks I've heard to the better roundbacks I've heard - in this genre.
Some woods I love the sound of, some woods I like the sound of, some woods look very nice but I don't the sound of them as much.
As long as you like the sound of the one you have, you're going to enjoy playing it, so that's that sorted.
you guys are all telling me things I don't know, so this is awesome. Luckily our sessions are rather small most of the time, so I don't have to work too hard at kicking up the volume.
It's a very demanding instrument and frankly some people do not posess the strength to play it up to speed. I cut my teeth in the bluegrass world where you have to play fast, furious, and for many hours at the festivals. Without that I don't think I would have made it to where I am if I noodled along with tab abd books. And still I have to play all the time or I get weak and start to loose my chops (no pun intended). Yet I still don't think I fit in all that well and wish my fiddling was up to snuff. You simply can't play melody set after set on the thing. Strumming is different. Like one ol bluegrass dude I know said: "the mandolin just fights you back the whole time".
that's one reason I decided to pick up the mandolin. I actually get tired of doing one melody set after the other! I'm hoping to broaden my experience in areas of music other than Celtic, but I thought I'd start out learning some Celtic stuff.
mandolins in sessions
mandolins in sessions
okay, so I've heard recordings that have mandolins in them, and the instrument sounds really good. I myself just got a mandolin for christmas and love the instrument to pieces, but I'm a little shy to take it to the Irish session because I've not seen one there yet. Do you think the mandolin is a good Irish session instrument, or should I just stick to my fiddle?
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by seng
Re: mandolins in sessions
Yes. I play mando at the trad sessions. I try to compliment the music . I try to think how a dadgad instrument might fill. 99% of the time when I hear other mando players in this setting, they have little skill and just go fling....fling...on a simple first position chord. And it's fine because they do not know how to get volume out of their usually cheaper end mandos. They are totally drowned out. So they are ver benign. The other end of it is when you follow along playing the melody. Very hard to keep it up because of the mechanics involved. Also very hard to keep it as smooth as the button pushers or hole tappers. Quite the challenge to find your spot. It's currently my number one instrument. But I would do otherwise if me fiddle playing was good enough, sigh...maybe in another 5 years. It works well for accompanying the vocal tunes though.
Salt
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by saltcast
Re: mandolins in sessions
I love the Mandolin to bits too, oh yes! Melody is where it's at. The tuning isn't too cool for nice chord voicings anyway, methinks. Tuned GDAD, you'll probably sound nicer with chords but I bought mine to play melody so GDAE is the way for me.
Worry not about having seen one in a session. Not a lot of people know this but Mandolins pre-date banjos in Irish sessions anyway. I think the old roundbacks may have been a little too flimsy in those days, dropped to pieces and became obscure. They were probably even harder to play back then too (imagine that!) and wouldn't have sounded as sweet as modern, flat-backs, bless 'em.
They sound good in recordings so they're going to sound good playing the music in any setting, wouldn't you think?
Now and again, I've been in sessions in Manchester with other Mandolin players and I've been able to sit out and listen without the distraction of the 'mechanics' of playing. I think a well played Mandolin can add something of value to a session. You're a fiddle player and you love the Mandolin to bits, Seng, so why shouldn't anyone else love it to bits just like us, eh?
Get really good at playing one set and introduce the sound with that as a change from your fiddle. I'll bet it goes well. If anyone doesn't like it, just ignore it and feel pity for their blackened and withered souls, poor things. *hee hee*
I'm interested in which model you're playing and which woods it's made from (and you, Salt - and anyone else too).
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
We have a mandolin playing regular at our sessions-he sounds great playing melody on such as "Merrily Kissed the Quaker, Dr. Oneill's, Lark In the Morning, Etc." If it is a tune he doesn't know the melody for, he lightly chords. On some of the reels, like "Bucks of Oranmore" he gets an interesting chop rhythm going. Definitely an asset.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by rainog
Re: mandolins in sessions
I played mandolin for years at sessions, and theres no better instrument, for all the reasons mentioned above. I allways tune GDAE, and if your'e coming from a fiddle background, theres no point in overcomplicating things with strange tunings. The beauty of a mandolin playing melody is that you're never going to get up anybody's nose, cos it's so quiet. Best of luck seng.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Backer
Re: mandolins in sessions
Mandolin' s my main session instrument. I also play tenor banjo at sessions. But mandolin' s nice for melody and backing (very convenient for tunes i know by hearing, but can' t play). But I would not advise to do this kind of chordbacking on the tenorbanjo...
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Berni
Re: mandolins in sessions
I love the mandolin at a session (of course, I'm a bit biased) though I like playing the fiddle too. Certain tunes sound great on the mandolin, eg jigs, hornpipes, etc whereas reels are probably easier on the fiddle if you are a good fiddler, that is. Unfortunately, I have been playing the mandolin much longer so they are still easier on this instrument.
I should really focus more on the fiddle in fast sessions but it's so easy to fall back on the mandolin sometimes. You can also play slower tunes like waltzes and airs on the mandolin but these require a lot more work to sound really interesting.
I'm not too sure about chords and backing on the mandolin. Perhaps, I've been concentrating on melody to the detriment of backing but I find that only certain tunes benefit to any great extent. As has been suggested, the chord voicings are a bit more limited although you can experiment with different tuunings. However, an octave mandola or bouzouki would probably be more suitable.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Johannes J
Re: mandolins in sessions
Mandolins have several advantages: they are usually quiet and if you are in a new session you can still make mistakes and not feel like a fool since no one will hear you anyway .
Second, There are a lot of interesting chords and fills you can use especially "power chords" (Root and fifth) which are easy to produce in the standard tuning of GDAE.
Most important, they are very portable and you can take them on the plane with you whereas the tenor banjo is not always welcomed either on the plane or in a session.
There is no mandolin tradition in ITM as far as I can see so you can try out a host of techniques including inverted chords and even the occasional bluegrass chop (just don't do that too often, it is distracting) as the muse moves you.
And, as Oscar Wilde said about the pipes, "At least it doesn't smell."
Mike Keyes
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by mikeyes
Re: mandolins in sessions
I play both mandolin and fiddle, although I've have played mandolin for a longer time than the fiddle, so am pretty comfortable on it. I love the fiddle to bits, but am still cutting my teeth on it.
I like playing melody on the mandolin, (rarely play chords...I'd rather leave that to a good guitarist or bouzouki player) especially when there's a large group of fiddles and pipes playing a certain tune, and I want to introduce a different texture in that big sea of sound. Although it is a quiet instrument, it's amazing how well it does project in the pub (I've been told) ....even if I can't hear too well what I'm playing myself! Although I can only put up with that for so long--it's too frustrating.
I love playing hornpipes, waltzes and some jigs on ithe mando...but rarely reels.....it gets too exhausting in a session situation. Reels are so much more fluid and satisfying on the fiddle anyway!
Anyway....some tunes fit beautifully on the mandolin (especially tunes with lots of string crossings and arpeggios) and some are just meant to be played on the fiddle...so i go back and forth between the two, sometimes even within a set of tunes.
Work on a really nice set on your mandolin, so it's really solid, and then play it at the session during a lull.....and you'll blow them away!
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by aoife
Re: mandolins in sessions
Oh yeah........some really nice mandolin tunes:
Homeruler Hornpipe & Kitty's Wedding
O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick (Choice Wife)
Trip to Skye (waltz)
Aaron's Key (jig)
Frieze Britches (lots of triplets)
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by aoife
Re: mandolins in sessions
Tell you what I think works really well on the Mandolin... Ignore all that advice about avoiding reels, some are brilliant on the Mandolin. I find reels in A sound really bright and funky (well, I would, woudn't I?). Try the version of /The Black Haired Lass/ in O'Neill's or the excellent /Eel in the Sink/. Come to think of it, another belter /Jenny's Chickens/ has three sharps too and sounds 'proper bright' (as we say in these parts), thought it's Bm (dorian).
Knock 'em dead with some Ed Reavy - /Maudebawn Chapel/ rocks its socks off on the Mandolin. For a nice contrast, send 'em into raptures with a moderately paced rendition of /The Girl who Broke my Heart/ in Gm
If reels are played well too fast at your session, start a set off at your own pace. It'll do 'em good to hear how good they can sound a little slower anyway. We knew a box player whom we thought must've hated the tunes because he couldn't wait to get to the end of them. Tendonitis slowed him down, eventually.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
I played the mandolin first. Then moved to the banjo. Mandolins are not played as much in sessions because they get drowned out. If you want to hear yourself and to be heard in a large loud session play the banjo Almost all mandolin players play the banjo. If you do play the mandolin it helps to have a good loud mandolin that projects also you need the skill to make it project. The best mandolins for sessions that I have found are the flat army/navy model Flatirons. They are loud and have a nice open sound. They are also cheap. Another good cheap vintage mandolin is the Stradolin ( must have a spruce top ). People are getting smart about both of these so they are getting harder to find.
For performances, dances and recording projectioin and volume are not a problem because the sound is enhanced.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Martinfamilyband
Re: mandolins in sessions
Ok, I have to chime in here. The mandolin is a gorgeous instrument that any tune can be played on. I have the pleasure of playing sessions with Marla Fibish, who can drive the session without any problem -- and she's not amplified. Her strength is awesome, and her rhythm and tempos are impeccable. Anyone who doubts the qualities of the mandolin is just lacking the experience of being in the presence of someone like her. The only tunes she doesn't like to play are slow airs or anything that requires a sustained tone. She refuses to use tremolo. But anything else is fair game.
# Posted on January 3rd 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: mandolins in sessions
Tell 'em, Jack!
We just recorded a set (warts and all) round at a mate's house to see how well it fitted together. The microphone was pointing at the banjoist who was nearest to it. Next to him was a fiddler and then there was a Lowden (loud 'un) SAD-DAD guitar in line with the mic. I was sideways on to it and a little farther away. You might think I had no chance, but it's a clear as a bell - and I wasn't bashing it to bits either.
There's a big difference between sitting behind one and being in front of one. They tend not to project well backwards and the sound has to travel sideways, relative to the instrument, and upwards, relative to ground, to reach the ears of the player directly (assuming the player is still upright-ish). Don't let this fool you into thinking that they can't be heard across the room. *hee hee*
Long live the Flatiron!
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
I you don't like playing reels on a mandolin, my advice is to play another instrument. Reels sound excellent on a mandolin as well as all other types of tunes. GDAE is the best bet for tuning, I use FDAE which is just a personal difference. I know some others who use this also. Declan Corey is perhaps Irelands best and can be found on Joesphine marsh recordings and may others as well. When Declan plays in a session you hear him and he hears himself.
MiKeys, I really don't know what you mean by no traditon of mandolin in Irish music. I can't agree with you on this one. Mandolin is around in Irish music a lot longer than Banjo, guitar or Accordian
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by compaqjohn
Re: mandolins in sessions
History corner: Mandolins became popular in American music around the turn of the century (the previous turn of the century, if you want to be precise) (although they did get revived right around the last turn of the century, which is probably often enough...) when a Spanish mandolin orchestra had a very popular tour. This led to a mandolin orchestra craze, which is why we have the the mandolas, mando-cellos, octave mandolins, and mandobasses - I had the privelege of playing mandobass in the Portland Mandolin Orchestra for a few years, and if you've never tried it, you can't imagine how much fun that was. This was also responsible for the Gibson company, which was originally (I believe) a mandolin company, and later moved on to guitars. Gibson developed the flat-back mandolin, based on the violin's carved back, which produced a much louder and brighter sound. The Gibson-style instruments were then adopted by Southeastern string bands and some blues players (Yank Rachell is a prime example) and used to found bluegrass, and were then ignored, more or less, until the Oh Bother revival, except by folkies.
So when does the mandolin enter ITM? The only example of mandolin that I have on recording prior to Irvine and Brady (there were others around at that time- I know John Pearse tells a story of swapping a Greek bouzouki for a mandolin with a member of Sweeney's Men whose name I can't recall - the bouzouki had had its round back broken into bits, and repaired with a flat back, which is where the Irish bouzouki comes from, per Pearse, who was there and I wasn't so I'm not going to argue but only end the digression herewith and posthaste before it drowns out the rest of the post to which it is not expecially related) is Father O'Keefe's set from the Paddy in the Smoke album, and that sounds like a roundback, probably picked up in Italy. Does anyone else have a citation of the mandolin in trad music prior to Paddy in the Smoke? And do you know whether the back was carved or coopered? That would help to clear up the origin and provenance of the instrument in trad.
My speculation is that, barring deviant cases like Father O'Keefe, the mandolin's entry into ITM occured in the States, sometime during or after the folk scare of the sixties, of which O'Keefe may even have been a part, come to think of it. I could be wrong, but I can't think of a mandolin player before the sixties. Guitar, of course, appears on some of Coleman's tracks and on Hugh Gillespie's as well, and the box is at least back to that period. Banjo as a melody instrument is probably more recent. Tenor was very popular as a rhythm instrument, with ocasional chord-melody breaks, in early jazz bands, but never playing melody that I know of. Does anyone have any ideas as to the origins of the tenor banjo as an ITM solo instrument? I don't.
But I don't think that I can agree that mandolin predates guitar or box in ITM without some sort of citation of an earlier player. I say it's probably the yanks' fault, and it happened in the seventies.
And yes, before you ask, my theme song for the evening is "Didn't He Ramble". And yes, I play a 1917 Gibson model A, sometimes even in sessions.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: mandolins in sessions
That's what Marla plays too I believe.
The banjo comes from the African Re-bob as far as I know. It has been around for thousands of years. It has one string that one uses the back of the fingernail to manipulate the pitch. The resonating chamber is round and the neck is long. Attempts to duplicate the instrument by slaves eventually led to a banjo-like instrument we’re familiar with today. The melodies were based on pentatonic scales including what later became known as "blue notes.” The rhythmical structure was very complicated and to the average listener appeared to be unstructured. It was the close proximity with Irish slaves who's music inspired the 8-bar structure that eventually led to New Orleans style jazz that the banjo is associated with. It was in fact the fusion of African and Irish music that contributed a great deal to the early development of jazz.
There's an historic recording of a New Orleans style jazz band playing the Sally Gardens that was featured on Ken Burn's documentary about jazz. It was my personal study of ethnic music that led to my understanding of this link with the re-bob/banjo and Irish music. I'm not certain, but I believe that tap dancing is also a result of the close proximity between Irish and African slaves during the 19th Century.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: mandolins in sessions
Yeah but...
I think the comment about no tradition of Mandolin refers more to style than usage.
Also, flatbacks were around in Europe way before the Gibson brothers's father was a twinkle in their grandfather's eye (so to speak). The roundback was known as the Neopolitan, the flatter one was known as the Milanese.
Mandolins were used in sessions in Ireland long, long before in America and way before electricity, let alone recording technology. Usually, they had been brought back by soldiers who had been fighting in European campaigns. Hence, my comment above about it pre-dating the banjo (in sessions, not in existence). I think John K is referring to its re-entry (and he's talking about America). I agree with compaqjohn on this one.
The Tenor became popular in ITM after its tuning was re-arranged to facilitate the playing of melody. Interesting that it should have transformed by adopting the tuning of the Fiddle and Mandolin, don't you think? *hee hee*. Oh, and notwithstanding the comments by John about African slaves and Irish, don't neglect the possibility that the Clog Dancing tradition of Northern England had some bearing on the development of tap, but all this is besides the point...
Back on topic: Do we think the Mandolin is a good Irish session instrument?
I think it's obvious that we do. We, here, all agree that the modern Mandolin is as sweet as a nut and has its place in the tradition. I mean, lets face it, the only instrument of Irish origin is/are the Uilleann Pipes - so ALL the rest have been adopted. Let's keep on introducing the Mandolin for, as far as I'm concerned, they are a joy.
Spread the joy!
Go for it, Seng!
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: Kazoos in sessions
okay, so I've heard recordings that have kazoos in them, and the instrument sounds really good. I myself just got a kazoo for christmas and love the instrument to pieces, but I'm a little shy to take it to the Irish session because I've not seen one there yet. Do you think the kazoo is a good Irish session instrument, or should I just stick to my didgeridoo?
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by geoffwright
Re: mandolins in sessions
To paraphrase Sean O Riada's essay on tradtional music, banjo and mandolin are played by those who lack the musical dexterity and sensitivity to play the fiddle.
While this cannot be disputed, it should be noted that fiddles are also played by such people.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by ragaman
Re: mandolins in sessions
I've also encountered many good fiddlers who are no great shakes on the mandolin. Fair enough, I'm sure they would be able to play well with a bit of practice but, although they can find the notes(same fingering) they don't all get it.
And vice versa, of course.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Johannes J
Re: mandolins in sessions
Would these be the people with the withered and blackened souls I mentioned earlier?
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
It's funny but every time I see a fiddler play the occasional mando or guitar bit, they play very cleanly, quiet ,and precise yet, well.... over-rehearsed and no balls. Very technical but ZZZzzzzzzzzzz.
Give me a reformed rock n roller to back you up or pick a tune anyday.
Salt
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by saltcast
Re: mandolins in sessions
Above was a reference to tenor banjos in jazz bands. Actually, from what I have seen, most of the banjoes played with jazz were plectrum banjoes, four strings, but with a longer neck -- the same length as the five-string banjoes used today in Bluegrass. I have one myself, which I don't take to sessions, but do play in church sometimes (there is nothing that gets an entire congregation singing on the beat like a banjo accompanying them). Because of the wider fret spacing, it is difficult to play melody fast on a plectrum banjo like you can on a tenor.
AL Brown
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by AlBrown
Re: mandolins in sessions
I love mandolins in sessions ( and spaghetti, pizza and so on.. )
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by gian marco
Re: mandolins in sessions
I play mandolin in sessions all the time. It's main drawback is that you have to play the hell out of it to get volume, and even then it's pretty easy for a noisy session or audience to drown you out. That's when you get out the banjo.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by withak
Re: mandolins in sessions
For whomever asked:
I play a Flatiron A-5 jr. This is the lower end of their carved mandos, but still expensive. It sweet. It was made in Bozeman, MT before Gibson bought them out and moved to the factory to Nashville. Bruce Weber signed it. So I think of it as a Weber sorta. It's got a big bark too for that bluegrass chop. But I try to stay away from the lower end tones with the irish stuff. Wish I had a zouki.
Salt
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by saltcast
Re: mandolins in sessions
'Twas I who asked. many thanks
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
Oh, by the way. That zouki you want... would that be a bazouki or a kazouki?
I have the latter as a swap for your Flatiron should you be interested.
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
I'm not sure you're new to fretted instruments, but in case you are (or another of the readers are) I wanted to share some experience with the mandolin from a little further down the path you're on.
I have been playing mandolin (my first instrument) for about a year and a half or so. I've been fairly diligent and focused about it (every day practicing etc). I've gotten "pretty good" for my living room. I can play jigs at tempo. I have internalized a DUDDUD pick pattern to give jigs a nice feel. I can play hornpipes with the correct bounce (dotted eighth + sixteenth rather than double eighth) and mostly at tempo (call it 160 vs the fast session pace of about 180). I cannot play a single reel at 220. I cannot do really up-to-speed picked triplets. I can do hammer-on-pull-off style triplets ok, though. Not as elegant sounding but it gets me from point A to point B. Now remember, this is where I am after 18 months of hardcore practice (call it 30-60 minutes per day), lessons, and a little luck.
The first point, thus, is "Don't expect to get a Christmas mandolin and go out to play at a session up to speed tomorrow."
Next up, ear vs notation. I've lived this argument for every single day of my eighteen months. I've come to the conclusion that my path (tab/standard notation mostly) was NOT the right path. Learn your instrument by ear. Notation (tab/standard) is a very nice way to learn tunes in your living room. And if all you want to do is play in your living room, then go right ahead. If you want to play with people at a session, however, being able to "hear" a song and play it is about a million times more powerful. And going TO a "by ear" method FROM a notation stance (as opposed to the other way around, potentially) is VERY VERY VERY hard. Believe me. I'm doing it now and it's like I'm starting over from scratch.
So, second point: "Learn to play a tune by ear and learning the instrument, not just how to read standard/tab."
Finally, speed is VERY hard past a certain point on the mando. See an earlier comment: It comes down to mechanics; a simple physics issue. It can be done, obviously, but it's hard. Hard enough, for the record, that I'm actually giving some serious thought to taking up flute just so I can keep up.
So, you mando folks out there who have been doing it for longer, please help me believe it will get easier so I don't toss a couple years of mando practice down the drain!
# Posted on January 4th 2005 by keytonw
Re: mandolins in sessions
Dunno keytonw, I've been playing mando for 30 years and technically I'm still about where you're at if your description is correct. Except for DUDDUD for jigs, still haven't mastered that. Old dog, new tricks etc.
If the flutes and whistles go too fast (i.e Belfast Hornpipe ye b@st@rds, you know the bit, think it's funny to do those legato descending triplets at the speed of light) then I just leave out a few notes and still manage to beat them to the finish.
Where it has got better is that I'm very comfortable with the instrument and have had lots of fun at sessions over the years. Sometimes I even get allowed back into the same one, or perhaps they don't remember me.
I have to agree with Sean O Riada - I definitely lack the sensitivity or dexterity to play the fiddle. And the psychopathic tendencies.
A louder mandolin is great as you don't have to bash hell out of it trying to hear and be heard. Even if you've got a quieter one - try getting to the sesh early and having a quiet tune with just you and a fiddle or whistle, or stay late when people start to drift away (they do that sometimes you know)
Stick with it, it's a great little instrument. Even better when it's in tune.
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by Bren
Re: mandolins in sessions
Playing the trebles at speed in reels. Now there's a topic. I wonder what picking approach various players adopt for this task. I worked out a technique and later found it to be the one Simon Mayor uses. I've experimented with a couple of techniques and, at one point, I used one technique in sessions where reels have swing and another where they were being played with even quavers (as some people do). I don't play the Banjo so I've no experience of that technique and adopting it to the Mandolin.
I wonder how other players approach this. Pray tell, it could be interesting. I'm flexible in my approach to try anything. I'm always open to suggestions that are physically possible and don't entail me enduring too much pain and embarassment - so keep them clean and on topic, please. *heh heh*
Should this be the topic for a new thread, maybe, or should we carry on with it here? It could get long and involved for I'm not just interested in the how but also the why - the pros, the cons, etc.
As for Shaun O Riada and that, particular opinion of his... ... ... ... ...
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
Yep, it's easier to go fast on flute and whistle--fingers on boths hands doing essentially the same things (lifting off and coming down on little holes), and relatively small motions at that. Of course, it's also plenty easy to play fast and sound like sh*te on flute/whistle. But there's no harm in learning flute/whistle while you continue on mandolin. That way, you can pick along on some tunes, and switch to blowing when someone trots out the Belfast Hornpipe.
Speed on mandolin or any other plectrum instrument is mostly a matter of keeping the picking wrist loose and relaxed (or, a less common but still legitimate approach for some, locking the wrist and moving the whole forearm), and making the picking motion as small as possible to produce the desired notes and sound. Many people tend to take a bigger swing at the string when they play louder, so it's important to practice tone and volume production with consciously smaller movements.
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by Will CPT
Re: mandolins in sessions
It's true a mandolin is quieter. If you're new to the instrument and not really confident with it, you may get an unsettled feeling from not being able to hear yourself. And starting a tune is downright impossible in a large assembly.
But the mandolin as an ensemble instrument adds a dimension that can sometimes be lacking from a bow, blow, press assemblage: it can be percussive. It has attack, which can add very pleasant accents. It has little sustain and fast decay, so it can't drone on and overwhelm. With the short scale length, once you master the instrument you should eventually be able to set the fret board on fire and keep up with the fiddles.
It has chording potential. I've learned that the right chords at the right moments wake the music up and it feels fresh. What's funny: Because the instrument is so demure, few players realize the accents are coming from the mandolin - They think they're just playing especially well tonight. And then, by golly, they do!
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by BarryM
Re: mandolins in sessions
Mandos are great in sessions - regarding the roundback/flat back issue: the roundbacks definitely have a sweeter tone, but they are quieter.
I would certainly be one of those fiddle players that 'doesn't get it' though - I find the fingering is okay, but I need to spend a LOT more time learning how to use the pick properly!
Cheers
Jerry
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by ijerry
Re: mandolins in sessions
Ah well, I don't agree but I'm not knocking your opinion. I respect it.
I think really well made flatbacks are sweeter but well, it will depend on the woods, your particular, personal preference (which is why I respect your opinion) and whether you've heard all the flatbacks and all the roundbacks (or, at least, a shed-load of different ones) - I haven't. I prefer the better flatbacks I've heard to the better roundbacks I've heard - in this genre.
Some woods I love the sound of, some woods I like the sound of, some woods look very nice but I don't the sound of them as much.
As long as you like the sound of the one you have, you're going to enjoy playing it, so that's that sorted.
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by Gael Force
Re: mandolins in sessions
you guys are all telling me things I don't know, so this is awesome. Luckily our sessions are rather small most of the time, so I don't have to work too hard at kicking up the volume.
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by seng
Re: mandolins in sessions
It's a very demanding instrument and frankly some people do not posess the strength to play it up to speed. I cut my teeth in the bluegrass world where you have to play fast, furious, and for many hours at the festivals. Without that I don't think I would have made it to where I am if I noodled along with tab abd books. And still I have to play all the time or I get weak and start to loose my chops (no pun intended). Yet I still don't think I fit in all that well and wish my fiddling was up to snuff. You simply can't play melody set after set on the thing. Strumming is different. Like one ol bluegrass dude I know said: "the mandolin just fights you back the whole time".
# Posted on January 5th 2005 by saltcast
Re: mandolins in sessions
that's one reason I decided to pick up the mandolin. I actually get tired of doing one melody set after the other! I'm hoping to broaden my experience in areas of music other than Celtic, but I thought I'd start out learning some Celtic stuff.
# Posted on January 8th 2005 by seng