From what I know it's very different. It split off the gaelic tree earlier, and I think it's more similar to Cornish and Breton than to Irish or Scottish Gaelic. A friend of mine here in Phoenix teaches it so I've been exposed to it quite a bit.
Welsh is a P-Brythonic language, Irish Gaelic is a Q-Goidelic language. As different as chalk and cheese. Welsh is a gorgeous language, but some of the grammatical quirks in it melt the brains of native English speakers. Be warned! ;)
(I wish my granddad had taught it to me when I was young enough to bend my head around it. *sigh*)
Oh, btw. Don't call it "Welsh Gaelic" to a Welsh person. You've heard about the Irish bards who could satirize kings effectively enough to raise boils on their faces? It was the Welsh who taught them how to do it.
P
I actually have a rather good natural talent for languages, and pick them up like they're instruments (which I also tend to pick up fast and well). So...
As fiddlemouse says, Welsh is a Celtic language, not on the Gaelic branch but on the Brythonnic branch. Therefore it is not Gaelic at all. I'm surprised someone with such a good natural talent for picking up languages as you claim didn't already pick that basic fact up.
As has been pointed out already, Welsh is not Gaelic, it's the other branch of Insular Celtic, Brythonic which are all P-Celtic, not Q-Celtic like Irish (Gaeilge).
Likewise "Irish Gaelic" is a term which should be avoided, "Irish", or "Gaeilge" will suffice, you can apply Gaelic to Scots and Manx.
Welsh isn't too difficult to learn if you have a good background in linguistics and grammar, the most difficult thing for the beginner will be the sound system and the initial mutations. As regards being similar to Irish, well for all except those who have a background in Old Irish and Comparative (Celtic) Linguistics it's not similar at all, all you might be able to do if you have a good level of spoken Irish is pick out a couple of cognate words here and there, that's about as much of a similarity as you'll find at that level.
It's probably less difficult to learn well than Irish in that the grammar isn't quite as complex, and it's not inflected, although it does retain gender distinctions.
The pronunciation of Welsh is, for an English speaker, probably easier than that of Irish, and the correspondence between spelling and pronunication is straightforward, and fairly easy once you've got your tongue round some of those sounds common in Welsh but rare in many other languages.
The complexity of Irish spelling arises out of the fact that the language uses only 18 letters to indicate a much larger number of sounds - a complexity matched only by English - but, unlike English, there is a fairly regular but complicated code of rules governing the correspondence between the sounds and the letter combinations used to denote them. This code of rules has to be mastered before the language can be pronounced from the written word. The rules probably arise from the fact that Irish spelling today reflects the sound of the language as it was pronounced centuries ago - again rather like English.
Irish spelling today certainly does not reflect "the sound of the language as it was pronounced centuries ago", far from it. It reflects the language as spoken in the 20th century, there are some complications of course, and dialectal variations can never be reflected by a standard orthographical system, but to say it represenents the language as it was pronounced centuries ago is totally inaccurate.
Fair point Muiris. There are probaly only half a dozen Irish dialects left in the country, which is abominable considering the fact that practically the whole of Ireland spoke Gaelic at one time. The last person to speak Antrim Irish was a woman who died in the early sixties apparently. Shame.
To give an example of the P/Q thing "Map" or "Mab" old Welsh "Son of" in Scots Gaelic is Mac. In modern Welsh the M is lost leaving Ap.
I've noticed a similar thing between Latin and Greek “Equus” Horse and “Hippos”.
I hate to keep correcting things, but "son" in Modern Welsh is "mab", the initial m- is only lost occasionally when it's part of a surname, Dafydd Ab Gwlywm etc.,
Welsh "pyw" = who? for Old Irish "cia", or "pen" = head for Old-Irish "cenn" might serve better to illustrate the P / Q relation, rather than mab / mac where there have been subsequent soundchanges too which further muddy the water.
Oraghalm, that business of today's Irish orthography reflecting the sound of the language centuries ago I got from the pronunciation guide in an Irish grammar* which says "the spelling rules ... are in some ways more faithful to the way Irish was pronounced several centuries ago than to the present-day sound of the language". May I read a stronger interpretation into that phrase than was perhaps warranted, but there must be a vestige of truth in it.
* Teach Yourself Irish" by Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Sheils.
I know the book Teach Yourself Irish (I don't have a copy in front of me as I type), I still stand by my statement though. Irish orthography was revised and simplified (unofficially, this was then adopted as the official standard) in the 50s, and it is still the subject of a lot of debate and disatisfaction, however what it did represent was the first attempt to modernise Irish orthography since the Bardic Syntactical Tracts. What it did was cut a lot redundant spellings, for example "magic" = "draoidheacht" to "draíocht". There are countless examples of this type of simplified spelling.
Added to this is the fact that there are certain spounds which have disappeared from the language, for example, "th" we know to have been pronounced as the "th" in "the" in Old Irish, this sound is no longer present in Irish, where "th" arises it is either silent (as in "maith"), or as "h" (as in "athair").
Granted, any orthographic system or standard becomes redundant shortly after it is set down as all living languages evolve, and so anything but a phonetic representation may not be sufficient to show the nuances of a given language (some are less complicated than others obviously). Think of French and all those lost final syllables.
One could argue that "t" or "á" represent the sounds as they were pronounced in Irish centuries ago and you would be correct. But I still hold that the statement in question is an over simplification of the matter. The standard orthography ("caighdeán oifigiúil" of which I'm not a fan it must be said), was set down to deal with the problem of an archaic orthography, and although it didn't clear up all ambiguity, it does represent the Irish of the 20th century.
trevor j i have that book. its a good book but thats not true. haha. it is not like english. we havent changed our spellings largely for 400 years on many words. irish changed much in the present century.
saying it hasnt changed since back then is like saying that spelling the word phrase "fraze" is more a reflection of how english was pronounced 400 years ago. it would be accurate that the phonetic defice of silent e is based on the way english used to be spelt, but it reflects modern english. so, yes, the spelling devices themselves initially came about because they were pronounced more faithfully a long time ago, just as silent e's were once not silent in english, but that doesnt mean using these devices is a reflection of past pronunciation. it is a result of past pronunciation, though.
I would give the owl Cymraeg a go sifudave. I did it as part of my degree (irish and celtic studies). Although I was used to everything being taught through Irish, the Welsh wasnt as difficult as I thought it would have been. It was good fun trying to get the tongue round the mad pronounciations. I also did Scots Gaelic, and I remember more welsh now than scots.
Laura
Welsh Gaelic
Welsh Gaelic
Hey. I was just wondering, I have the opportunity to learn Welsh gaelic...how similar is it to Irish gaelic?
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: Welsh Gaelic
From what I know it's very different. It split off the gaelic tree earlier, and I think it's more similar to Cornish and Breton than to Irish or Scottish Gaelic. A friend of mine here in Phoenix teaches it so I've been exposed to it quite a bit.
See this link for more info:
http://users.comlab.ox.ac.uk/geraint.jones/about.welsh/
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by dirtyheel
Re: Welsh Gaelic
They have as much in common as Jerry Adams and Dr. Ian Paisley!
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Welsh is a P-Brythonic language, Irish Gaelic is a Q-Goidelic language. As different as chalk and cheese. Welsh is a gorgeous language, but some of the grammatical quirks in it melt the brains of native English speakers. Be warned! ;)
(I wish my granddad had taught it to me when I was young enough to bend my head around it. *sigh*)
Oh, btw. Don't call it "Welsh Gaelic" to a Welsh person. You've heard about the Irish bards who could satirize kings effectively enough to raise boils on their faces? It was the Welsh who taught them how to do it.
P
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by sara g
Re: Welsh Gaelic
I actually have a rather good natural talent for languages, and pick them up like they're instruments (which I also tend to pick up fast and well). So...
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: Welsh Gaelic
As fiddlemouse says, Welsh is a Celtic language, not on the Gaelic branch but on the Brythonnic branch. Therefore it is not Gaelic at all. I'm surprised someone with such a good natural talent for picking up languages as you claim didn't already pick that basic fact up.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Welsh Gaelic
As has been pointed out already, Welsh is not Gaelic, it's the other branch of Insular Celtic, Brythonic which are all P-Celtic, not Q-Celtic like Irish (Gaeilge).
Likewise "Irish Gaelic" is a term which should be avoided, "Irish", or "Gaeilge" will suffice, you can apply Gaelic to Scots and Manx.
Welsh isn't too difficult to learn if you have a good background in linguistics and grammar, the most difficult thing for the beginner will be the sound system and the initial mutations. As regards being similar to Irish, well for all except those who have a background in Old Irish and Comparative (Celtic) Linguistics it's not similar at all, all you might be able to do if you have a good level of spoken Irish is pick out a couple of cognate words here and there, that's about as much of a similarity as you'll find at that level.
It's probably less difficult to learn well than Irish in that the grammar isn't quite as complex, and it's not inflected, although it does retain gender distinctions.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Welsh Gaelic
The pronunciation of Welsh is, for an English speaker, probably easier than that of Irish, and the correspondence between spelling and pronunication is straightforward, and fairly easy once you've got your tongue round some of those sounds common in Welsh but rare in many other languages.
The complexity of Irish spelling arises out of the fact that the language uses only 18 letters to indicate a much larger number of sounds - a complexity matched only by English - but, unlike English, there is a fairly regular but complicated code of rules governing the correspondence between the sounds and the letter combinations used to denote them. This code of rules has to be mastered before the language can be pronounced from the written word. The rules probably arise from the fact that Irish spelling today reflects the sound of the language as it was pronounced centuries ago - again rather like English.
Trevor
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Sorry, I must pick up on a point there Trevor,
Irish spelling today certainly does not reflect "the sound of the language as it was pronounced centuries ago", far from it. It reflects the language as spoken in the 20th century, there are some complications of course, and dialectal variations can never be reflected by a standard orthographical system, but to say it represenents the language as it was pronounced centuries ago is totally inaccurate.
Sorry I get quite picky about this subject.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Fair point Muiris. There are probaly only half a dozen Irish dialects left in the country, which is abominable considering the fact that practically the whole of Ireland spoke Gaelic at one time. The last person to speak Antrim Irish was a woman who died in the early sixties apparently. Shame.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Welsh Gaelic
To give an example of the P/Q thing "Map" or "Mab" old Welsh "Son of" in Scots Gaelic is Mac. In modern Welsh the M is lost leaving Ap.
I've noticed a similar thing between Latin and Greek “Equus” Horse and “Hippos”.
PP
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwrndrobwllllantisiliogogogoch
If you can pronounce that, you're halfway there.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by granama
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Re: Pied Piper's comment
This gives rise to many Welsh surnames, such as Powell (Ap Hywel), Bowen (Ap Owen), Pritchard (Ap Richard), Parry (Ap Harry), Upjohn (Ap John) etc.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by granama
Re: Welsh Gaelic
I hate to keep correcting things, but "son" in Modern Welsh is "mab", the initial m- is only lost occasionally when it's part of a surname, Dafydd Ab Gwlywm etc.,
Welsh "pyw" = who? for Old Irish "cia", or "pen" = head for Old-Irish "cenn" might serve better to illustrate the P / Q relation, rather than mab / mac where there have been subsequent soundchanges too which further muddy the water.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Correcting your corrections, here, Oraghalm, but that should read 'pwy'...
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Nell
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Hey Pied - so your name would be Cied Cicer in Irish?
:~}
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Oraghalm, that business of today's Irish orthography reflecting the sound of the language centuries ago I got from the pronunciation guide in an Irish grammar* which says "the spelling rules ... are in some ways more faithful to the way Irish was pronounced several centuries ago than to the present-day sound of the language". May I read a stronger interpretation into that phrase than was perhaps warranted, but there must be a vestige of truth in it.
* Teach Yourself Irish" by Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Sheils.
Trevor
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Welsh Gaelic
"Maybe", not "May"!
Trevor
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Touché on pwy, slip of the fingers.
I know the book Teach Yourself Irish (I don't have a copy in front of me as I type), I still stand by my statement though. Irish orthography was revised and simplified (unofficially, this was then adopted as the official standard) in the 50s, and it is still the subject of a lot of debate and disatisfaction, however what it did represent was the first attempt to modernise Irish orthography since the Bardic Syntactical Tracts. What it did was cut a lot redundant spellings, for example "magic" = "draoidheacht" to "draíocht". There are countless examples of this type of simplified spelling.
Added to this is the fact that there are certain spounds which have disappeared from the language, for example, "th" we know to have been pronounced as the "th" in "the" in Old Irish, this sound is no longer present in Irish, where "th" arises it is either silent (as in "maith"), or as "h" (as in "athair").
Granted, any orthographic system or standard becomes redundant shortly after it is set down as all living languages evolve, and so anything but a phonetic representation may not be sufficient to show the nuances of a given language (some are less complicated than others obviously). Think of French and all those lost final syllables.
One could argue that "t" or "á" represent the sounds as they were pronounced in Irish centuries ago and you would be correct. But I still hold that the statement in question is an over simplification of the matter. The standard orthography ("caighdeán oifigiúil" of which I'm not a fan it must be said), was set down to deal with the problem of an archaic orthography, and although it didn't clear up all ambiguity, it does represent the Irish of the 20th century.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Welsh Gaelic
trevor j i have that book. its a good book but thats not true. haha. it is not like english. we havent changed our spellings largely for 400 years on many words. irish changed much in the present century.
saying it hasnt changed since back then is like saying that spelling the word phrase "fraze" is more a reflection of how english was pronounced 400 years ago. it would be accurate that the phonetic defice of silent e is based on the way english used to be spelt, but it reflects modern english. so, yes, the spelling devices themselves initially came about because they were pronounced more faithfully a long time ago, just as silent e's were once not silent in english, but that doesnt mean using these devices is a reflection of past pronunciation. it is a result of past pronunciation, though.
# Posted on December 15th 2004 by daiv
Re: Welsh Gaelic
Or Qied Qiper.
Piobair Breac
PB
# Posted on December 15th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Welsh Gaelic
I would give the owl Cymraeg a go sifudave. I did it as part of my degree (irish and celtic studies). Although I was used to everything being taught through Irish, the Welsh wasnt as difficult as I thought it would have been. It was good fun trying to get the tongue round the mad pronounciations. I also did Scots Gaelic, and I remember more welsh now than scots.
Laura
# Posted on December 16th 2004 by LaraKerr