Someone wrote about a month ago:
> Besides, as good as they are, Norbeck's files are full of weird
> settings with no context
I admit that I've not been very good at writing down the source of the tunes. There are some weird settings here and there, of course, but most of them are fairly standard.
> no explanation for accidentals (that may or may not show
> how the tune is actually played in Irish sessions),
Why do I have to explain accidentals? No other tunebook (printed or abc) that I know of does that. Or do I have to comment every accidental with [sic]? Most of the transcriptions are from sessions in Ireland or recordings of Irish musicians.
> variations that sound more Scandanavian than Irish, etc.
Interesting... I would like to know what sounds Scandinavian about them. As I said above, most of the transcriptions are of Irish musicians.
> In the long run, I'd rather trust my ears than his abcs.
I've enjoyed browsing through your abcs over the years--I've certainly learned no few good tunes from them. Thank you for the mountain of hours you must've put in to notate so many tunes.
Some of the settings strike my ear as odd, but I've usually chalked that up to your source, rather than your transcription. Differences in regional and indiviual styles, the instrument (fiddle, flute, pipes, box, etc.), and time mean that there is no "standard" setting of a tune. What sounds "right" for one player/time/place sounds "weird" to another.
That said, as in any written collection of music from an aural tradition, your transcriptions have their share of discrepancies from the recorded source (talking about tunes from commercial recordings here). I've transcribed about 1,500 Irish tunes over the years, so I'm familiar with the decisions that come up--transcribe exactly as played, or offer your own ideas, modify phrases when taking a tune off flute to fit it onto fiddle, etc. And I know that mistakes/mishearings inevitably creep in.
I'd hope we can keep the big picture in view. The Norbeck collection is one piece of the written record, which in turn is just a piece of the aural tradition. No single piece should be expected to capture the breadth and detail of the music--but we'd be poorer if any piece were left undone or lost.
All in all, I think you've done a fine job and deserve free pints in every pub on your travels.
I agree.
When I'am looking for the abc's for something, the first place I'll look is Henriks' pages.
Sometimes I even troll through the indexes by the first few bars looking for a pattern that I don't know the name of. I have found several tunes I needed help with the abc's for in this way.
Sure, sometimes a setting, on there doesn't quite match the music I'am learning from ( CD, tape etc... ), ( maybe it was taken off a different instrument... ) but thats no problem, and I'am always grateful for Henriks huge efforts as invariably it gives me a good skeleton tune to start with.
He's done a fantastic job, I imagine lots of others round the world will have found it useful.
Henrik's pages are a great resource; I especially like the indexing. As with any collection of ITM tunes, the settings may not be version I'm after. He usually includes in the notes the recordings where the tune can also be found to assist in your search for the tune setting you want. His site represents countless hours of work, and we should all be glad he loves the music enough to have done it.
The tunes on this site have the same problem many times, but here, unlike Norbeck's site, people can contribute abcs of settings from various recordings, or their own particular setting. This enhances the tune database as time goes by.
Personally, I don't rely solely on any one abc resource. I prefer to hear a tune before I play it. But many times these resources help me find a recorded source, or a version that will match what's already in my head.
Thanks to Jeremy as well for his hard work on this site. People like Henrick and Jeremy will always have a pint on me if ever I should meet up with either of them.
Hej Henrik! Vi kanner varandra men har inte setts pa lange Jag tankte bara for nagra dagar sen pa att jag skulle emajla dej och hora hur det gar i Stockholm. Fattar inte vad fan det kan vara fraga om med "weird" och " more Scandinavian than Irish". I manga fallen ar dina settings mer eller mindre som jag sjalv spelar laten. Kan det vara nagon jankare som kritiserar? Onskar bara att vi hade nagra av er svenska grabbar har i USA, da skulle de sessions jag spelar pa vara mycket battre. Du har gjort ett fantastiskt bra jobb! Fair play to ye!
At the risk of turning this into a "me too" thread -
I have benefitted greatly from the source of tunes in Henrik's collection and I am as others greatly indebted to him.
There is always a danger that someone says something on a message board and if it is not contradicted, may appear to be the views held by that group.
There's a pint waiting for you down under in Perth also Henrik if you ever make it here.
Don't bother doing that search I just came up with the answer and I think the offender maybe knows already. ☺☺
I'm going back to lurk mode now before I upset anyone else.
I'll fess up - I made all of the comments Henrik cites above. But they were prefaced with "as good as they are," in reference to his abcs.
It was on a thread Mark (Dow) started about not cutting and pasting abcs from other sources into the tune section here. And I cited some problems I've run into with Henrik's transcriptions as a reason for not simply copying someone else's transcription into Jeremy's database. My comments were not meant to single out Henrik's work (someone else used him as an example earlier in that thread) for criticism.
When I submit a tune here, I don't cut and paste *my own* transcriptions without playing them over many times and making sure it's a viable setting, usually specific to a particular instrument (fiddle or flute, most often, in my case).
But I stand by what I said in the other thread. Some of Henrik's transcriptions do not match what I hear from the same recorded source. Some of his variations are unlike anything I've ever heard an Irish trad musician play, in 30 years of listening to this music. As for the accidentals, I'll plead a bad memory--I can't recall what I tunes I was thinking of when I wrote that, but I had just come from looking at some of Henrik's abcs, and there were "odd" (to my ear) accidentals, with no context to understand them. Perhaps his source for those settings was a box or banjo player fond of chromatic stylings. I don't know. I didn't mean to imply Henrik should explain those accidentals and settings, only that it would be unwise for someone else to copy them into another database without understanding how those settings might differ from more common session settings.
Over the years, I've played through every one of Henrik's abcs on his site. Some of them I know well enough to recognize out of context when they're copied to another site. And I'd also wager that I can recognize a pattern of maturation--of increasing sophistication--in Henrik's ability to transcribe the tunes. I've run into the same improvements in my own efforts to transcribe from recordings and live players. Some transcribers are more accurate and more thorough than others. Henrik's abilities rate high in my estimation.
Again, all of these efforts are just pieces of the bigger pie. It's wildly unrealistic for any one transcriber to bear the sole responsibility for transmitting the tunes, the tradition. That's all I was saying on the other thread, and that's my only beef with Henrik's abcs--that some people take them as the gold standard.
As for settings that don't match the recordings, in many cases I actually haven't learnt the tune from the recording, but from a session or a friend. But I've put in the D: fields just so that people can find the tune on recordings too.
I've never heard the first bar played that way. 99 percent of the time you get something more like: |BAGF G~E3|. Every subsequent bar in Henrik's setting goes someplace unexpected until we get to the end phrase--then it's back to a more common sound.
Now, I'm not saying Henrik's transcription is "wrong," just not common, in my experience. Of course it's useful to have his setting--particularly if you already know the tune. But, in the context of the thread my original comments were made in, I'm not sure this would be the best setting to copy into another tune database as the stock setting.
P.S. It always helps to know the source(s) of the transcription, and to be clear when they're different than the discography. I've grown much more meticulous about this in my own transcriptions, especially in submitting them to tune databases such as Jeremy's.
"Over the years, I've played through every one of Henrik's abcs on his site." (Will)...
I don't accept for an instant that that's possible. In fact, I can't believe Henrik is just one individual - it's a pseudonym for a Santa-like workshop where several hundred elves with fiddles and Dell's are feverishly adding tunes to the database under the stern gaze of The Chief.
Play every one of Henrik's abc's?? Can't be done. People gotta eat and sleep, Chores have to be completed, then there's the tricky problem of earning a few bucks to keep the wolf from the door. Then maybe - just maybe, there's time to pick up the odd jig or reel.
Perhaps Will is a former elf from the Henrik operation - you know, a little like the one who heads off to the Land of Misfit Toys every year while Burl Ives sings a Holly Jolly Christmas. Yes - come to think of it - that could explain a lot of things...
There's always different settings of any given tune. I'll confess that I rarely to never reference Henrik's collection after finding that the settings I learned from there were almost never the settings played where I am and that they often got me odd looks (and I wasn't good enough -- still barely am -- to change up the tune to match others on the fly, so I had to just stop playing) out at sessions and sometimes even comments about my weird settings.
After a while I just stopped referencing them in favor of other collecitons, and now that of course I know how to figure out how to make settings wonky to my surroundings work for me, I don't need to, because now I can also learn from other people just as well.
But that doesn't make his collection bad, just not very useful for me where I play. I think his collection is dandy, myself, and I'm glad it's out there.
By the way, Greg, I totally believe that Will has played all of the abc's on Henrik's site. You haven't met the man, you'll understand once you do. *smirk*
Er...I just realized that I'm talking about Henrik like he's not reading this -- sorry, Henrik! Anyway, don't take it all personally. Your collection is wonderful, and keep it up, it's all good.
I feel I should admit culpability for this. I think the thread in question was triggered by my cutting and pasting one of Henrik's transcriptions into the Tunes section. The attack was directed primarily at perpetrators of that unforgiveable crime, and poor Henrik got caught in the crossfire.
Needless to say, I hold Henrik's collection in high regard, and see absolutely no reason why his transcriptions should not be *at least* as valid as my own. However, Will, Dow and others will be happy to know that I am a reformed poster, and will not be cutting and pasting transcriptions from existing collections onto this site in the future. Forgiveness will not be necessary. I am strong enough to live with the shame.
Grego, hmm, 2000 tunes say, at 1-1/2 mins per tune for sight-reading an abc, that makes about 50 hours of playing. Spread out over a few months I see no problem.
Trevor
Mr. Goat, most of us here have gone through our share of blunders posting tunes here. It's out of those struggles that the tune database here has developed into the terrific resource that it is--complete with a comment section for each tune that allows us to post critical reviews of one another's work, which in the long run helps us all by improving the tune submissions. I've been posting tunes here since before Jeremy opened it to all of us (I sent Jeremy a few abcs early on, and he posted them), and I've certainly learned a lot in doing so, thanks to the eyes and insights of the membership here.
All I'm suggesting is that Henrik's collection is not infallible or the gold standard. There is no gold standard for transcribing tunes because there are no "standard" settings. Copying one setting into another venue only perpetuates the myth that one setting works in all situations.
Grego, I've also played through all of the abcs in the session.org's database, all of Richard Robinson's tune collection, all of Reavy's compositions posted by his son, all the dots in O'Neill's, and a few other books. I've been at this a long, long time, Montana winters are good for this, and I don't sleep much.
In researching tunes on the Internet, or in various books I have, I will feel the setting I'm looking at is "weird." There are a few reasons for this, I think. a) It doesn't match what you've heard and have become familiar with. b) It doesn't match the setting you already play. c) It’s just weird. Strange double notes or awkward leaps along with harmonic chaos can all be sprinkled throughout a given tune in many cases, but it might be normal to whomever hears it that way.
Many times I have looked at abcs by a given author on this site and thought it was right on, and then later I'll come across a tunes submitted by the same author and discover it's "weird." Sometimes I'm saved by subsequent settings submitted in the comments section.
When I first came across Henrick's site I learned a couple of tunes before I discovered in the notes a reference to a recording the tune appeared on. When I listened to the recording I realized there were discrepancies -- so I sat down and made the corrections to the abcs. I put them in an email to send to Henrick, (thinking I was helping,) but at the last minute decided to investigate his site a little closer before I hit the “send” button. I’m glad I did because that's when I noticed the disclaimer at the top of his abc page.
Anyway, I already praised this site (thesession.org) for the comments sections in the tunes section, but I would like to encourage folks to submit alternate versions of tunes that they play, and or specific settings related to the recordings they appear on for tunes in the database. Thank you for your attention.
I'm what you call new to computer notation. What do ye mean by settings, is this just the way its wrote down? or has it something to do with software? I can figure out a tune by looking at the ABC letters and can tell straight away if its accurate or a fake!
The one thing I would knock anybody is posting a tune which is transcribed without due consideration for the original, regardless who has made a recording. Is it not possible to only submit pure tunes and let all decide which style they want to end up playing it in. Rather than the Sharon Shannon or Mary Bergin versions and the likes. Could the orginal version be the only version that needs posting? Anyways Hendriks database is impressive and a great addition as is the one on this site too.
How do you find the "original version" of tunes? Most tunes have been handed down aurally for too long and the "original" is lost. Also, the nature of this music isn't strict enough to enforce an "original version" as the way it should be played. I always find it interesting to see what a composer had in mind, but more often than not the version that is a result of a tune's release into the tradition is more interesting and playable. This is why having many versions from a variety of sources enhances the database and allows a person searching for a tune to find what they might be looking for.
It's been far too long since I've had an opportunity to read, write or speak Swedish -- but I do enjoy your tunebook, and enjoy delving into the Scandinavian and English material as well as the Irish. A fantastic resource!
Jack, I suppose to find the original is somewhat misleading on my part. What I mean really is the longest known version and the one considered to be the original tune without decoration, perhaps taken from the first collections, older musicians or recordings.
Too often I find when looking for tunes on this site or Henriks that the version on offer is that of a very recent recording and is miles away from the tune I consider to be of the same name or else it has so many variations that it can't be taken seriouly. I really think this is important to maintain style from different regions in Ireland, however important this is outside of Ireland I'm not really sure. I think to have the bones of the tune etched in collection form will allow people and indeed encourage people to add a bit of themselves into the mix and not to just use others peoples decorations. After all we all play more or less the same tunes, its the style of the different regions and counties that makes a musician noted in the long run. Why do what Sharon Shannon has already done? The wheel needs no reinventing.
Norbeck's weird settings??
Norbeck's weird settings??
Someone wrote about a month ago:
> Besides, as good as they are, Norbeck's files are full of weird
> settings with no context
I admit that I've not been very good at writing down the source of the tunes. There are some weird settings here and there, of course, but most of them are fairly standard.
> no explanation for accidentals (that may or may not show
> how the tune is actually played in Irish sessions),
Why do I have to explain accidentals? No other tunebook (printed or abc) that I know of does that. Or do I have to comment every accidental with [sic]? Most of the transcriptions are from sessions in Ireland or recordings of Irish musicians.
> variations that sound more Scandanavian than Irish, etc.
Interesting... I would like to know what sounds Scandinavian about them. As I said above, most of the transcriptions are of Irish musicians.
> In the long run, I'd rather trust my ears than his abcs.
Good idea! Learn by ear. I do that myself!
Comments welcome...
Henrik Norbeck himself
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by hnorbeck
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I've enjoyed browsing through your abcs over the years--I've certainly learned no few good tunes from them. Thank you for the mountain of hours you must've put in to notate so many tunes.
Some of the settings strike my ear as odd, but I've usually chalked that up to your source, rather than your transcription. Differences in regional and indiviual styles, the instrument (fiddle, flute, pipes, box, etc.), and time mean that there is no "standard" setting of a tune. What sounds "right" for one player/time/place sounds "weird" to another.
That said, as in any written collection of music from an aural tradition, your transcriptions have their share of discrepancies from the recorded source (talking about tunes from commercial recordings here). I've transcribed about 1,500 Irish tunes over the years, so I'm familiar with the decisions that come up--transcribe exactly as played, or offer your own ideas, modify phrases when taking a tune off flute to fit it onto fiddle, etc. And I know that mistakes/mishearings inevitably creep in.
I'd hope we can keep the big picture in view. The Norbeck collection is one piece of the written record, which in turn is just a piece of the aural tradition. No single piece should be expected to capture the breadth and detail of the music--but we'd be poorer if any piece were left undone or lost.
All in all, I think you've done a fine job and deserve free pints in every pub on your travels.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I agree.
When I'am looking for the abc's for something, the first place I'll look is Henriks' pages.
Sometimes I even troll through the indexes by the first few bars looking for a pattern that I don't know the name of. I have found several tunes I needed help with the abc's for in this way.
Sure, sometimes a setting, on there doesn't quite match the music I'am learning from ( CD, tape etc... ), ( maybe it was taken off a different instrument... ) but thats no problem, and I'am always grateful for Henriks huge efforts as invariably it gives me a good skeleton tune to start with.
He's done a fantastic job, I imagine lots of others round the world will have found it useful.
Pat
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Pat Higgins
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Henrik's pages are a great resource; I especially like the indexing. As with any collection of ITM tunes, the settings may not be version I'm after. He usually includes in the notes the recordings where the tune can also be found to assist in your search for the tune setting you want. His site represents countless hours of work, and we should all be glad he loves the music enough to have done it.
The tunes on this site have the same problem many times, but here, unlike Norbeck's site, people can contribute abcs of settings from various recordings, or their own particular setting. This enhances the tune database as time goes by.
Personally, I don't rely solely on any one abc resource. I prefer to hear a tune before I play it. But many times these resources help me find a recorded source, or a version that will match what's already in my head.
Thanks to Jeremy as well for his hard work on this site. People like Henrick and Jeremy will always have a pint on me if ever I should meet up with either of them.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Hej Henrik! Vi kanner varandra men har inte setts pa lange Jag tankte bara for nagra dagar sen pa att jag skulle emajla dej och hora hur det gar i Stockholm. Fattar inte vad fan det kan vara fraga om med "weird" och " more Scandinavian than Irish". I manga fallen ar dina settings mer eller mindre som jag sjalv spelar laten. Kan det vara nagon jankare som kritiserar? Onskar bara att vi hade nagra av er svenska grabbar har i USA, da skulle de sessions jag spelar pa vara mycket battre. Du har gjort ett fantastiskt bra jobb! Fair play to ye!
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by LongNote
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Wow, that reminds me of a Swedish lesson I got once, where the drunker I became, the easier it was to understand.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
At the risk of turning this into a "me too" thread -
I have benefitted greatly from the source of tunes in Henrik's collection and I am as others greatly indebted to him.
There is always a danger that someone says something on a message board and if it is not contradicted, may appear to be the views held by that group.
There's a pint waiting for you down under in Perth also Henrik if you ever make it here.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Donough
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
By the way can someone manage to do a search to find who made these comments in the first place. Then we can...........☺
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Donough
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Don't bother doing that search I just came up with the answer and I think the offender maybe knows already. ☺☺
I'm going back to lurk mode now before I upset anyone else.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Donough
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
At the risk of turning this into a "me too" thread - me too!
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by grego
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I'll fess up - I made all of the comments Henrik cites above. But they were prefaced with "as good as they are," in reference to his abcs.
It was on a thread Mark (Dow) started about not cutting and pasting abcs from other sources into the tune section here. And I cited some problems I've run into with Henrik's transcriptions as a reason for not simply copying someone else's transcription into Jeremy's database. My comments were not meant to single out Henrik's work (someone else used him as an example earlier in that thread) for criticism.
When I submit a tune here, I don't cut and paste *my own* transcriptions without playing them over many times and making sure it's a viable setting, usually specific to a particular instrument (fiddle or flute, most often, in my case).
But I stand by what I said in the other thread. Some of Henrik's transcriptions do not match what I hear from the same recorded source. Some of his variations are unlike anything I've ever heard an Irish trad musician play, in 30 years of listening to this music. As for the accidentals, I'll plead a bad memory--I can't recall what I tunes I was thinking of when I wrote that, but I had just come from looking at some of Henrik's abcs, and there were "odd" (to my ear) accidentals, with no context to understand them. Perhaps his source for those settings was a box or banjo player fond of chromatic stylings. I don't know. I didn't mean to imply Henrik should explain those accidentals and settings, only that it would be unwise for someone else to copy them into another database without understanding how those settings might differ from more common session settings.
Over the years, I've played through every one of Henrik's abcs on his site. Some of them I know well enough to recognize out of context when they're copied to another site. And I'd also wager that I can recognize a pattern of maturation--of increasing sophistication--in Henrik's ability to transcribe the tunes. I've run into the same improvements in my own efforts to transcribe from recordings and live players. Some transcribers are more accurate and more thorough than others. Henrik's abilities rate high in my estimation.
Again, all of these efforts are just pieces of the bigger pie. It's wildly unrealistic for any one transcriber to bear the sole responsibility for transmitting the tunes, the tradition. That's all I was saying on the other thread, and that's my only beef with Henrik's abcs--that some people take them as the gold standard.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I wonder if the detractors have put as much effort into doing anything for the public good????? free of charge!!!
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by -=cluiche=-
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
And that was definitely a 'ME TOO', to the previous comments.
Thanx Henrik
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by -=cluiche=-
Nice to know Henrik is checking up on us here once in a while!!
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Donough
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
As for settings that don't match the recordings, in many cases I actually haven't learnt the tune from the recording, but from a session or a friend. But I've put in the D: fields just so that people can find the tune on recordings too.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by hnorbeck
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Just as an example, here's Henrik's take on the first part of Cup of Tea.:
|BAGF EDEF|GEBE GBE=c|BAGF EDEG|(3FED AD FAD=c|BAGF EDEF|(3GFEBE GBE=c|BAGF GAB^c|1 dBAG FDD=c:|2 dBAG FDD2||
I've never heard the first bar played that way. 99 percent of the time you get something more like: |BAGF G~E3|. Every subsequent bar in Henrik's setting goes someplace unexpected until we get to the end phrase--then it's back to a more common sound.
Now, I'm not saying Henrik's transcription is "wrong," just not common, in my experience. Of course it's useful to have his setting--particularly if you already know the tune. But, in the context of the thread my original comments were made in, I'm not sure this would be the best setting to copy into another tune database as the stock setting.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
P.S. It always helps to know the source(s) of the transcription, and to be clear when they're different than the discography. I've grown much more meticulous about this in my own transcriptions, especially in submitting them to tune databases such as Jeremy's.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
"Over the years, I've played through every one of Henrik's abcs on his site." (Will)...
I don't accept for an instant that that's possible. In fact, I can't believe Henrik is just one individual - it's a pseudonym for a Santa-like workshop where several hundred elves with fiddles and Dell's are feverishly adding tunes to the database under the stern gaze of The Chief.
Play every one of Henrik's abc's?? Can't be done. People gotta eat and sleep, Chores have to be completed, then there's the tricky problem of earning a few bucks to keep the wolf from the door. Then maybe - just maybe, there's time to pick up the odd jig or reel.
Perhaps Will is a former elf from the Henrik operation - you know, a little like the one who heads off to the Land of Misfit Toys every year while Burl Ives sings a Holly Jolly Christmas. Yes - come to think of it - that could explain a lot of things...
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by grego
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Lol, grego, it doesn't take that long. I can sight read abcs and play along at near session speeds.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
There's always different settings of any given tune. I'll confess that I rarely to never reference Henrik's collection after finding that the settings I learned from there were almost never the settings played where I am and that they often got me odd looks (and I wasn't good enough -- still barely am -- to change up the tune to match others on the fly, so I had to just stop playing) out at sessions and sometimes even comments about my weird settings.
After a while I just stopped referencing them in favor of other collecitons, and now that of course I know how to figure out how to make settings wonky to my surroundings work for me, I don't need to, because now I can also learn from other people just as well.
But that doesn't make his collection bad, just not very useful for me where I play. I think his collection is dandy, myself, and I'm glad it's out there.
By the way, Greg, I totally believe that Will has played all of the abc's on Henrik's site. You haven't met the man, you'll understand once you do. *smirk*
Er...I just realized that I'm talking about Henrik like he's not reading this -- sorry, Henrik! Anyway, don't take it all personally. Your collection is wonderful, and keep it up, it's all good.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I feel I should admit culpability for this. I think the thread in question was triggered by my cutting and pasting one of Henrik's transcriptions into the Tunes section. The attack was directed primarily at perpetrators of that unforgiveable crime, and poor Henrik got caught in the crossfire.
Needless to say, I hold Henrik's collection in high regard, and see absolutely no reason why his transcriptions should not be *at least* as valid as my own. However, Will, Dow and others will be happy to know that I am a reformed poster, and will not be cutting and pasting transcriptions from existing collections onto this site in the future. Forgiveness will not be necessary. I am strong enough to live with the shame.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Grego, hmm, 2000 tunes say, at 1-1/2 mins per tune for sight-reading an abc, that makes about 50 hours of playing. Spread out over a few months I see no problem.
Trevor
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Right, Trevor. My ABC PLAY2 software can sight-read abc files and play them. My own programming's somewhat inferior to that.
Anyway, people who can sight-read any kind of music at session speed make my jaw drop. They're a bit like the Rain Man.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by grego
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Mr. Goat, most of us here have gone through our share of blunders posting tunes here. It's out of those struggles that the tune database here has developed into the terrific resource that it is--complete with a comment section for each tune that allows us to post critical reviews of one another's work, which in the long run helps us all by improving the tune submissions. I've been posting tunes here since before Jeremy opened it to all of us (I sent Jeremy a few abcs early on, and he posted them), and I've certainly learned a lot in doing so, thanks to the eyes and insights of the membership here.
All I'm suggesting is that Henrik's collection is not infallible or the gold standard. There is no gold standard for transcribing tunes because there are no "standard" settings. Copying one setting into another venue only perpetuates the myth that one setting works in all situations.
Grego, I've also played through all of the abcs in the session.org's database, all of Richard Robinson's tune collection, all of Reavy's compositions posted by his son, all the dots in O'Neill's, and a few other books. I've been at this a long, long time, Montana winters are good for this, and I don't sleep much.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
"Rain Man" lol. I've been known to set the toaster on fire.....
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Will Harmon
What makes a tune setting "weird"?
In researching tunes on the Internet, or in various books I have, I will feel the setting I'm looking at is "weird." There are a few reasons for this, I think. a) It doesn't match what you've heard and have become familiar with. b) It doesn't match the setting you already play. c) It’s just weird. Strange double notes or awkward leaps along with harmonic chaos can all be sprinkled throughout a given tune in many cases, but it might be normal to whomever hears it that way.
Many times I have looked at abcs by a given author on this site and thought it was right on, and then later I'll come across a tunes submitted by the same author and discover it's "weird." Sometimes I'm saved by subsequent settings submitted in the comments section.
When I first came across Henrick's site I learned a couple of tunes before I discovered in the notes a reference to a recording the tune appeared on. When I listened to the recording I realized there were discrepancies -- so I sat down and made the corrections to the abcs. I put them in an email to send to Henrick, (thinking I was helping,) but at the last minute decided to investigate his site a little closer before I hit the “send” button. I’m glad I did because that's when I noticed the disclaimer at the top of his abc page.
Anyway, I already praised this site (thesession.org) for the comments sections in the tunes section, but I would like to encourage folks to submit alternate versions of tunes that they play, and or specific settings related to the recordings they appear on for tunes in the database. Thank you for your attention.
# Posted on December 13th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
I'm what you call new to computer notation. What do ye mean by settings, is this just the way its wrote down? or has it something to do with software? I can figure out a tune by looking at the ABC letters and can tell straight away if its accurate or a fake!
The one thing I would knock anybody is posting a tune which is transcribed without due consideration for the original, regardless who has made a recording. Is it not possible to only submit pure tunes and let all decide which style they want to end up playing it in. Rather than the Sharon Shannon or Mary Bergin versions and the likes. Could the orginal version be the only version that needs posting? Anyways Hendriks database is impressive and a great addition as is the one on this site too.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
compaq – by “setting” I mean version.
How do you find the "original version" of tunes? Most tunes have been handed down aurally for too long and the "original" is lost. Also, the nature of this music isn't strict enough to enforce an "original version" as the way it should be played. I always find it interesting to see what a composer had in mind, but more often than not the version that is a result of a tune's release into the tradition is more interesting and playable. This is why having many versions from a variety of sources enhances the database and allows a person searching for a tune to find what they might be looking for.
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Henrik
Tack sa mycket for er fin bok!
It's been far too long since I've had an opportunity to read, write or speak Swedish -- but I do enjoy your tunebook, and enjoy delving into the Scandinavian and English material as well as the Irish. A fantastic resource!
# Posted on December 14th 2004 by KateG
Re: Norbeck's weird settings??
Jack, I suppose to find the original is somewhat misleading on my part. What I mean really is the longest known version and the one considered to be the original tune without decoration, perhaps taken from the first collections, older musicians or recordings.
Too often I find when looking for tunes on this site or Henriks that the version on offer is that of a very recent recording and is miles away from the tune I consider to be of the same name or else it has so many variations that it can't be taken seriouly. I really think this is important to maintain style from different regions in Ireland, however important this is outside of Ireland I'm not really sure. I think to have the bones of the tune etched in collection form will allow people and indeed encourage people to add a bit of themselves into the mix and not to just use others peoples decorations. After all we all play more or less the same tunes, its the style of the different regions and counties that makes a musician noted in the long run. Why do what Sharon Shannon has already done? The wheel needs no reinventing.
# Posted on December 15th 2004 by compaqjohn