Firstly, I am not looking for discussion re the relative merits of Learning by ear versus sheet music. I'm also hoping? that this will not degenerate into another argument re noodling in sessions.
Ok. My general approach to learning tunes whether by music or ear is to play them slowly just to ensure I am getting all the notes and then gradually speed up. Sometimes, this can be a very quick process. Maybe 5 minutes. Other times, it might take 5 weeks! I also find that using "slow down" software will help. Of course, the famous piece of advice "Listen, listen, listen" is invaluable. It really helps if you already have the tune in your head before you start. Sometimes, you don't need to learn it all.
Now, I know that some of our more experienced fiddlers here, eg Michael and Will for instance take the view that we should quickly get away from learning tunes at a slower pace(including software aids) and learn them at the speed in which they are actually played. I agree that we should get to this speed very quickly but to try and pick them up at that speed straight away seems a little problematic.
For instance, if you are in a session, how do you do this without being accused of noodling? Therefore, it would seem that you should have to do this at home either from a CD, a recording of a session or in the company of another player(s).
The other alternative and one which I am beginning to favour is that we shouldn't be learning to play tunes at all, unless we've heard them enough times for them to be "in our heads". The "Listen, listen listen" approach.
Of course, this isn't always how it works in practice. Tune learning workshops will often deliberately only teach tunes which nobody knows and everyone has to start from scratch. We also have to learn tunes more quickly for perfomance etc and, on many occasions, we are just impatient to learn a tune that we like. So, I often find I'm "pushing myself" to learn certain tunes more quickly and they then get "into my head" as I'm learning them as opposed to before hand.
So, if you become an experienced player, is the desired goal always to learn tunes in "real time" so to speak? I don't see any harm in playing them slowly at first as long as I get them up to speed fairly quickly. What do you all think?
Learn that at whatever speed you're comfortable playing at. After many years of playing you will be able to pick up tunes after a few times through at normal speed. Learning is a gradual and lifetime process. Most of all the music is about expression, not how many tunes you know, and how fast you play, and how quickly you can pick up a tune. I say don't worry and just enjoy yourself. that's what its about, enjoying yourself.
I think you are using the words learn, learning, learnt etc as specific goals or absolutes with regards to tunes. where as in actual fact, the whole process is much more fluid and never ending.
At one end, you hear a tune for the first time and you say to yourself, "I'm gonna learn that." And at the other end, you find yourself one night playing one of your favourites that you've known for yonks and you suddenly discover something new in it.
And everything else in between, from getting it into your head first to refering back to bits of it you might have wrong, is all part of the process. And it doesn't really matter how you do it as long as you use your ears and not rely on artificial means. (by all means use artificial means, just don'y rely on them)
But to answer the question, most of my tunes are gotten at full spead. But only because I can't be bothered any more to sit down in the house and pick through stuff.t
That sounds fair enough, Michael. Would you agree that you still need to have heard them a few times albeit subconsciously before you pick them up "at full speed"? Obviously, you wouldn't do this with a tune you'd never heard before?
I can quite often pick up tunes at full speed myself, even in a session sometimes, but it's usually because I've heard them before, whether I knew it or not.
My advice is don't try learning a tune unless its already ingrained in your head. If you can whitsle or lilt the tune, give it a go. Do you really need to learn a tune right away, after just hearing it?
Hi John,
I reckon you can learn tunes at full speed if they are the right tunes for you. In other words, the tunes find you, you don't find the tunes. There are certain tunes that just seem to take a hold after a few listens. I might hear other tunes that I really want to learn, but which I have the devil's own job nailing down. But as Michael says, it's all an ongoing process.
It's just a thought, but maybe this business of 'learning tunes' is not the way to think about it. Maybe it's more 'learning the music', and we go through a continual process of assimilation, which can never be complete, and that the ability to play particular tunes is just a part and by-product of that(?)
Mark
I agree with the comments above and I like the idea of "tunes finding you". In general, I like to have heard tunes before I play them and, as you say Mark, it's much easier to learn them at full speed then.
However, sometimes you are "obliged" to learn different tunes while playing with others. I mean for perfomance rather than sessions. At the Strathspey and Reel meeting, we're expected to play a new tune "at speed" from the music. This doesn't always work for until I've played it a few times and it's in my head but I usually have the last laugh as the rest of them are still "depending" on the music for evermore.
I’m new to this and find that trying to learn a tune by ear at regular speed, I often miss notes that I haven’t heard …or haven’t heard properly until someone else points it out ....is this normal , or am I not listening properly ?
Or is this what Michael is talking about the different stages of learning ?
A problem i find when learning tunes by ear is when i get the main theme of both the A & B sections i get lazy when it comes to the 7th & 8th bar of the section. These are the parts that i find most difficult to pick up, consequently i just end up throwing a bastardized version of the end of the section usually disguised with a flurry of bowed triplets. Any advice? or should i just work harder?
Ofcourse the tune has to be ingrained in your head before you attempt it. Though a lot of tunes are so obvious that this takes little or no time atall. But I just don't see how you could play a tune straight off the dots. It seems such an anathema to play a tune you don't know. How can you do that? (Unless, of course it's one of those tunes that are so predictable). OK so you could play the notes, but we all know there is a world of difference between playing the notes and playing the tune3
What a weird thing to say. If I look through the dots of a tune and sing it to myself in my head and decide I like it enough to want to learn it, I just learn it, just the same as if I heard it and liked it, I'd learn it. Can't think of any reason why not if you know how to play the tunes.
Unfortunately, that's how they think in some of these organisations. Some of them are really good "sight readers" and can play really complicated tunes straight away. However, as you probably know, this sounds all very mechanical and a bit stilted.
Personally, I don't like this method and tend to ignore the written music once the tune is in my head. Therefore, I play with the others there rather than from music(which most of them are doing). Then, I find it easier adapt the tune to my own or other player's style as required.
The diference between hearing a tune being played for the first time and hearing it in your head by reading it off the dots is a seperate discussion. But either way, you decide whether you like it, then learn it (or begin the process of learning it). We agree on that.
But my argument is that you can't really play it, unless you know it.
I don't think that's what Michael means, Mark. Obviously, if you read through the dots of a tune and like what you "hear in your head", then you will want to learn the tune. I can't see any harm in that. I've done that with some of the well known session tunes which I don't know myself (if you know what I mean).
However, just playing a tune straight from the dots at speed is a rather strange idea and not something I would normally choose to do. However, that seem to be the accepted practice at Strathspey and Reel Societies and the like.
Of course, this will also happen with other types of orchestras too, sometimes even on the night of "the performance" itself.
I used to have a teacher who wouldn't let me put bow to strings until I could hear the tune in my head and be able to sing it back!!
Although you sometimes have to learn pieces at a slower than normal pace, sometimes you can't get the rhythm and feel of a piece at the slower tempo. I learn some pieces by ear and some from dots - often a piece learnt by ear makes more sense when I see it written down!!
Best of all are the pieces which find you - the ones you just realise you know without having had to make a conscious effort to learn them. Although there is also great satisfaction when you finally play something you've struggled to learn.
I'm inclined to agree that you should get the tune stuck in your head before attempting to learn it (be it from dots, slowdowner, or whatever.) I didn't always think this way, but the tunes I know enjoy playing are ones that I was familiar with before trying them on an instrument.
As for picking up tunes "at speed." I suspect this comes doen to expertise with your instrument. If you can play anything that comes into your mind without searching around the fretboard (or keypad - is that what they call it on a buttton accordian?) then it should be easy to pick up by ear at speed. If you're at my level of competence on the instrument, the slowdowner will be required (or a very patient teacher.)
I'm trying to improve my ability to immediately translate from notes in the head to notes on the banjo, but it's going to take a little more time.
What kind of new things are you talking about Michael when
you say "one of your favourites that you've known for yonks and you suddenly discover something new in it." ?
I think Bach could indeed "hold a tune" - as all composers can. In his case, he was blind for the last few years of his life and dictated all his music to a copyist.
Trevor
You need to know how the tune goes in your mind in order to play it. This state can be reached in a variety of ways. It may take a minute, it may never happen. Just learn a tune at your leveel and you naturally progress. Don't try to push yourself to someone's level, you will only end up dissapointed in yourself.
The best way to learn tunes must still the oral/aural tradition - sing tunes to each other. I know not all musicians are singers, but if you can't run through the tune in your head by whistling, singing or mentally playing it, you haven't learnt it yet.
There's a danger in learning tunes "at speed" if you haven't established an understanding of how tunes are constructed, and ITM styles. I have heard people play that have learned tunes at speed during sessions and they leave out important stylistic details that define ITM. These folks don't appear to have a complete understanding of the style and structure before they endeavor to learn tunes like this. I have also heard people play tunes perfectly well that they learned at speed, but like I said -- they already understood the music and were proficient players.
I reckon patterns (or chunks) are hugely important in this, whether or not one is aware of them. Just starting out, one will learn, and play, each note more or less on its own. As time passes, one starts recognising, and playing groups of notes as one element. This not only speeds the learning process hugely, but also improves style and musicality.
Quit thinking and just play. You can play what you can and you can't force what you can't play. Just act natuarally. I think evryone is forgetting the nature of this music. That it was developed over centuries and families and communities played tunes for years and years and wereen't always learning new one's. Work on what you have and learn what you feel in your heart. To heck with the rest of it. If someone can play a tune you don't know, great just sit back and ennjoy a pint.
Ok Zug, I'll quit asking questions about it.Sorry.
So quit thinking and just play.
And post on a website about it as well....mmm
That'll get me back thinking about it again.
Sheidt..how DO you do it ?
Zug -- after reading your profile I don't know how you think we are suppose to take anything you suggest seriously. According to your profile -- you hardly even play ITM anymore except when you're drunk, and you tell us you mostly make stuff up. ITM isn't about you -- it's about the music.
Anyway, BegF, it's hard to be specific, but this is something I've noticed when people play tunes on their own, or I'm sitting next to them in sessions. I suppose it doesn't really matter to people who don't care at all about the music, but just want to drop acid or get drunk when they play.
Don't do ANYTHING till you can La (or lu, or li, or any other vowel you prefer depending on first language) the tune fully and recognise the different phrases etc.
I treid for ages to just sit down and ram a tune into my head, but this process often takes weeks, whereas the La-ing technique means tunes are much easier to grasp.
It seems to me that the term "learning by ear" includes learning a tune "by ear" from another musician, not necessarily at top speed either, and maybe in sections. Trying to learn a tune at speed from a recording can be quite frustrating. And you might think you have the tune when you can hum it but I've found that oftentimes subtleties are missed that way. I've heard players that are quite fast but their tunes sound like typewriter music with no pulse, no style and no heart.
Does Irish music have to be "about" something, fer catsake? C'mon. It's just music. Every bit as important and non-important as that. Anyway, give yourself some time, Johnny J. The more you play and hear the stuff, the easier it gets to pick it up on the fly. "Noodling" isn't really that much of a problem so long as you're playing quietly and it's clear that you're in actuality trying to get the tune down, not just playing any ol' thing ("hey, I don't know the tune, but luckily I can just play harmony") to be playing at any given moment.
Thank you, Zeeny Lee.
I've actually pick up quite a few tunes at speed already. As Michael and the others suggest, it helps if you know the tune "in your head" and have heard it a few times.
However, for some people, this is the desired and approved method whereas Jack and others (quite rightly, in my opinion) can see pitfalls in this practice. So, I don't see anything wrong with adopting other methods, eg from the dots, using a program like Transcribe to slow a recording down slightly---it's not that I need to play it at half speed or anything. About 80% usually suffices.
Of course, the important thing is to "Listen". That's half the battle. I'm sure everyone here will agree with that.
You're right Dow, after reading his posting history I can see he's just taking the piss. But I think you can still give him a run for his money for funniest member.
Is Nicky supposedly a man or a woman or what? My eyes are watering really badly now and I've given myself a wheeze and a sore tummy from laughing. I'll be logging on w/o fail everyday to see Zug's latest post. Nicky you rock - I love your ideas about pure freeform trad. If you're not careful you'll start a new fashion - drop acid and feel the crazy psychedelic traditional artform flow through your body. Just don't let anyone sing Danny Boy or your trip turns bad and all your session buddies' eyes go black and they sprout horns and start copulating lewdly, and the flutes and fiddles morph into instruments of torture. Well at least they'll keep the bodhran company I suppose.
There are a few points here with:
"favourites that I've known for yonks and I suddenly discover something new in them."?
This is straight forward and what I take as the essence of diddley music. there a are various stages in learning/knowing a tune.
1. decide you fancy learning it. (this could be concious or subconcious, like making an effort, or, just hearing it and then being able to play it with no effort
2. play it for yonks
3. realise that the people you play it with have it slightly differently. Conciously or subconciously amalgamate the diferences until you have that splended amazing unison thing. (One of the best buzzes to be had)
4. be so comfortable that you start to fuck about with it. (this happens best when you all start to fuck about together)
5. this is when the enjoyment of a tune becomes sublime. this is when you realy steart to explore what the tune really is. (note, it's important here not to do it in isolation, othewize all you'll end up doing is making a different tune)0
Another very important point that Zug said: "That this music was developed over centuries and that families and communities played tunes for years and years and weren't always learning new one's"
This compliments my crusade about there being too many tunes. I know quite a few really good players who I love to play with, bur rarely get passed stage 4 above
I support the idea several of you mentioned and that is - SINGING as the path from the ears (or dots) to the fingers. Years ago I took some jazz improvisation lessons and my teacher insisted that I listen to a solo and be able to sing it back as a way of internalizing it. Let me tell you - it made a HUGE difference. I know the process is very individual but for me a direct path from the notes->brain->fingers leaves Me on the side as an observer. It never enters the heart - where I want to music to reside. Somehow, singing engages the heart and embeds the music so deeply that I can forget about notation, time signature, and commit the music to a type of memory that is longer lasting and more meaningful than otherwise. I do this every day. I listen to music in my car constantly and I sing the tunes not matter how bad my voice is., no matter if I have to break into a weird falsetto or change octaves or whatever. It does work for some of us. Try it sometime.
True Michael, I doubt that someone like Peter Horan sits down and learns new tunes, but he does know plenty already. John's originnal question wouldn't be from a perspective of someone like that. Truth is -- the current generation of musicians do like to learn new tunes. If you're someone who's learning the music -- you have to learn new tunes. In my case, some of my newest tunes are old standards. I just learned Bag of Spuds and Sailor on the Rock today. (These tunes came up frequently on my trip)
Bag O' Spuds seems to be making its way around the country, Jack. We played it in two different sessions in Belfast.
Isn't it nice that we don't have to learn ALL of the tunes? Only the ones that we like. It gives me a perverse pleasure to sit and listen to a tune that I have no interest in learning and watch other people enjoy themselves with it. Sometimes they look at me as if to say "how can you not know this tune?"
Not to highjack, but since Mr. Gill is on this thread...I have to take back something I said in another thread. I was on some jag about not playing "performance" tunes in a session. As I found out recently, if everyone in the session is a brilliant player, you can play whatever tunes you darn well please.
Going back to John's original post, in particular paragraph 4, and the point made by improziv, there is something different going on when a tune is learned at speed (or approximately so). I am finding it harder and harder to learn music in little slowed-down bits. Humming the tune to myself while I get through the day means that I can usually go home and play the thing without all that fooling around with slow-downers. The ornaments are there, the feel is there. (And I'm halfway to official Crazy Old Lady status because I wander around town humming to myself.....Must acquire more cats and stacks of newspapers.......)
I guess it makes sense that our brains are set up that way, as writing and other forms of notation are pretty new developments.
There was an unusual tune that was coming up in nearly every session I was at in Ennis, (A Michael McGoldrick tune I believe,) and one morning I woke up with it in my head. I sat down and learned it from memory, and then checked it out at the next session. This would be a great way to learn all my tunes. *sigh*
I dunno, I wouldn't say that it's a case of "singing = music imprinted on your heart and soul" so much as it's simply that if you can sing the tune, since your voice is an instrument that really doesn't mean you need to have an ability to physically play it, then you actually know the tune. There's no technicalities or such getting in the way of getting the tune out (other than that some of us can't carry a tune vocally to save our lives).
If you're not a dead beginner on your instrument, you could probably pick up your instrument(s) and figure out Twinkle Twinkle or Baa Baa Black Sheep (ah, the classics) pretty much on the first go, mainly because we pretty much all know those tunes really really well.
And you can go too far in the other direction, too. I know players (mainly beginner through intermediate) who can't play a tune slowly to save their lives; the tune is more kinesthically learned for them, generally, so slowing it down makes it harder for them to play. That's not ideal either.
All things in moderation, including moderation.
p.s. Johnny J, d'you know, I totally missed that? I just happened to actually call you John because I wasn't teasing or anything. ;)
Oh, I know what you're saying about the kinesthetic learning, Zina. I fall into that pit all of the time, and have to go back and "fix" the tune by slowing it down and getting rid of the rubbish that has crept in.
For me, when learning by ear, it is not necessarily the speed, but the continuity or lilt that I need to hear. I would rather have someone play it for me at a medium tempo, with rhythm.
Say you are trying to learn a tune and you ask someone to play it for you. If they really break it down into just one note at a time, I cannot hear the tune. In order to learn it, I need to hear at least a segment of it played.
If I learn a tune off a tape at speed, I need to go back and listen repeatedly to make sure that I have it the way it is played on the tape. I find that I may take "short cuts". Play the tune the way I think it should be played, or the way I think it sounds.
And as Michael inferred earlier, I don't think you are ever finished learning a tune. That's the beauty of it.
Since I've run a tune-learning session, I've found that in the beginning, you really do have to break tunes down into really short phrases for beginners. They still have to worry about learning what "jumping down a third" feels like in the fingers. Once they're past that, it's much easier for them to learn in bigger phrases.
It's fun to watch, I've one woman in particular who when we first started could learn many three notes of a tune at a go, and that was it. She had to figure out where the notes were on her whistle, and all. Now she can learn two to four measures at one time, learning in whole phrases. Soon I expect she'll be learning whole parts in one gulp.
Zina - that's ok. I was just saying how it works for me. I was not implying that my method makes my experience better than others. I just feel that I know the tune so much better this way. If I sight read music (which I can) not much is retained. It kind of goes through some strange path to my fingers.
As for playing slow - Sometimes you can take a fast tune and turn it into a whole other interesting thing by slowing it down and adding embelishments.
It Is fun to watch., Zina. We have some players who have had a heck of a time getting past that three-note phrase. Some went away and never came back, but the ones that stayed are now swapping tunes.
And for Jack, I'd now like to play Hector the Hero with sultry saxophone backup. :-o
Or not embelishing it (I mean not give it any more or less embelishment than you would at speed), just playing it nice and straight and steady and lovely and letting the melody really sing for its self. It's actually one way to sort out the melodies from the dross. Try it with the wise maid, it really is beautiful (don't play it like a hornpipe though, play it straight)
This parallel has been drawn many times before on this site, but learning music is very much like learning a language. After an introductory course in conversational Polish, would you expect to be able to go into a pub in Krakow and join in a conversation at the bar? The chances are, you'd be able to pick out a few familiar words or phrases and whilst your brain was processing them, the rest would fly past in a blur. After some weeks, or months (depending on your age, the way your brain works and how often your clean your ears out) surrounded by the language, you might be able to understand the gist of peoples conversations. But it could take anything from a year to a lifetime to be able to absorb information without the use of some kind of conscious thought mechanism, and to be able to participate freely in conversation. Once you have achieved fluency (even if it is your first language), you never stop assimilating new vocabulary and expressions.
All this applies equally to learning music. The timescale may not necessarily be the same. The starting point may be different - music does not usually carry semantic value, so two different styles or music are often more mutually compatible than would be two different languages. But the principle is the same. We start by hearing a collection of sounds - which may be pleasant, or exhilarating - in which we can hear a pattern, but cannot make out the fine details. Then we gradually learn to pick out finer and finer details, until we can, if we wish, hear a tune as a succession of individual notes. When this process has become second nature, then we can start inflecting, ornamenting and varying the notes in our own way.
Sorry - it's a bit vague and unscientific. Set the ravens on me.
Don't like the Wise Maid fast or slow. Also don't like Mick McGoldrick tunes. They annoy the hell out of me and make me want to smash things and throw chairs.
Hi David (It is David, isn't it - I thought you might have cosen mountain goat because you then have the same initials as Michael Gill. And then I thought it might be some Chagallian thing?) I think that's more or les what I was saying above. You should learn the music, not 'some tunes'. Learning 'some tunes' is like learning a language from a phrase book.
Actually, I learn tunes, myself. Otherwise I'd feel too much like the Irish woman who took stepdancing classes from us and who informed us that we did NOT need to give her any corrections in class, because The Dance was in her soul. I felt it would be better applied to her soles, but we all have our thing...
I like Zina's perspective on how you learn a tune depending on your comfort with your instrument. I can sing just about any tune, while it's playing... think I know it... and then don't have a clue how it goes. It was in my head just fine when the CD was on but not when I picked up the fiddle. Since flute was my first instrument, I often "learn" tunes on the flute, then on the fiddle. With the fiddle, I'm still figuring bow direction, which fingers to hold down at which time etc whereas with the flute, I often just play a note, don't think about which one it is until after and then go... oh I started that on an A... good for me... then I know where to start on the fiddle. Thing is that I can "feel" where a tune goes on a flute, closer to singing it, than I can on the fiddle, so far but then again, I've been playing flute for 30 years... makes a difference.
It is like learning a language, it takes time to get fluent. I went to music lessions from the age of 8 with Liz, Yvonne, Etá kane, and Mirella Murray . We were thought by the excellent Mary Finn from Sligo, each week we were given one tune and that continued until we were nearly 20. But as those years went by we got fastest at picking them up and eventually could play them at any speed because we understood the tunes and more important, Irish Trad as a whole. We became fluent in the music. Today I can pick up tunes very fast and play them at any speed I want and will learn them by ear. I think newbies will make mistakes with the endings of the parts of the tunes if they try and learn them to quick. For this reason use the ABC or notation until you have 100 or more tunes, if only to check you accuracy. This is how all these variations come about, from people making up their own versions and eventually passing them on to somebody else.
I think, in general, Irish music has gotten to fast over the years and every new trad band has to go faster and faster and I feel it destroys the music and turns it into ........AAACCHH
Cjohn, what a lucky introduction to the music! I am filled with envy. Many years back, I heard a session tape of Liz and Mirella. Someone had sped up the tape so that it sounded like they were playing in E flat. Still, fast as it was, it was lovely music.
Thanks for all the replies so far. You know, things are so easy when you're a beginner and, apparently so, when you are truly an experienced musician. It's the part in between, where most of us are, that seems to present the problems.
Actually, I've been playing for quite few years now and do have quite a large repertoire. My main problem is that I'm not very focused and play too much of a mixture.
Interestly, those players who start as children don't appear to remain as "In Betweenies" for quite as long and suddenly emerge as really good players. Of course, they've still been playing for about ten years or more. It just seems that way to some of us oldies.
But Zina, surely you ARE learning the language, by learning tunes. The point is that it's wrong to think of it as a matter of learning tunes, or 'building up a tune bank'. If you were learning French, you would learn words and phrases, but would regard them as building blocks towards your ability to 'speak French'. You would only be happy with being a '100 phrase French Speaker with a barely understandable French accent', if your need for French was purely utilitarian - i.e. if, say, you wanted enough phrases to get by for a fishing holiday. (In musical terms this might equate with 'learning enough tunes to play at a barn-dance', or to get through this weeks' Strathspey Society meeting'.)
If people think like this, then they can get away from the frantic need to build and, maybe harder, maintain/retain an enormous and probably under-used tune base, and simply used tunes to learn the language, then the language to understand and maybe play the rest of the tunes. (Not that there is anything wrong with knowing lots of tunes!)
I was mainly teasing you, Mark! ;) Yes, I do know what you mean -- it's just that there's so many bits to learn, and it's so easy to forget how it was when you were starting out. (Rather like when you swore as a child that you'd never treat your kids like your parents treated you...and then waking up one morning to realize that you've turned into your mother or father!)
When you're first starting out, not only do you have to learn tunes in smaller phrases and chunks than you will later on, but you also have much more difficulty learning style and such at the same time as you're learning tunes. Oftentimes, you can't even hear that what you're playing is not the same thing as what you're hearing (watching a workshop where someone's trying to teach rolls come to mind). Sooner or later, of course, it all comes out just fine, but there's that period (longer or shorter for different people) where I personally think that players shouldn't worry too much about learning "tunes" vs. "style" or even "The Music" (with caps, even).
Not that that's what I think you're saying, Mark, but I wanted to make sure that anyone reading this thread who happens to be at that stage knows that that's normal and just fine.
Yes, sorry, I probably come across as being a bit pedantic. I was just trying to leaven the learning music = learning tunes thing, which I think bedevils this particular arcane corner of the musical Universe. Obviously my comments might be a bit harsh to someone struggling with their first half dozen tunes, but from my experience, whereas good musicians invariably have lots of tunes, the converse is not necessarily so.
Your comments about what what people hear when they are playing brings up a very interesting area. It’s not just beginners. I hear some quite experinced people play and wonder what it is they think they sound like. They say “Oh I got this from such and such a record,” and then play something completely unrecognisable. And I know from recording myself how different the perception I have of how it sounds with regard to phrasing, say, can be from the hard reality picked up by the microphone.
Scary stuff...
Yes, Mark, I guess it circles back round to getting the tunes you have under your belt and really know them well. Until you have the technical facility to be able to play your instrument without having to worry too much about things like tone and intonation and just getting the tune out (say, about two to five years of good solid work -- depending of course on the person and their priority level -- from a dead start), I'd say don't worry *too* much about the music/tunes thing. If you're listening to enough of this stuff properly, you'll not be able to help picking up some of that naturally anyway. And in the meantime, you can be learning tunes and your instrument.
Two to five years?!?! I must be a late bloomer then, 20 years plus and still hoping to reach that level, not worrying about tone and intonation and losing the tune mid-stream.
Well, I thought 2 to 5 years was a bit ambitious too.
I still have to work on tone and intonation or, at least, keep on top of things. The fear of "losing the tune midstream" is always with me, especially if I leading or playing the melody solo.
When I play the mandolin, it's less critical but I can still fall apart on an off day and some times the ornaments and effects come much easier than others.
Yes, well, wise-acres, once you get past the whole beginning thing, *then* you can obsess and be just as worried as the rest of us that you're not playing "with technically flawless execution PLUS a stylistically mature, inventive, highly developed and highly personal interpretation." All the time. Even after the fourth Guinnii.
And I've played with two out of the three of you, so don't go thinking you can fool me with this modest business of not worrying about tone and intonation and losing the tune. :-p
True, true, over the years I've neglected the music for family, remodeling, writing, reading, juggling, biking, snowboarding, cooking, eating, drinking (hic), getting an edufication, and doing laundry. Sigh.
Way up above, jfiddlerh asked about the end phrases of tunes and his tendency to just bluster through them. While it's true that many tunes share similar sounding (or even the same) end phrases, the deeper you get into this music, the more you realize that the subtle differences are what makes this music so diverse and inviting of exploration. This is especially important in the end phrases (of each part of the tune), and discerning the subtle differences goes a long way to understanding each tune's unique, individual personality. In turn, this helps you learn tunes by ear. At speed even.
Seriously, whenever I teeter on the brink of despair over not knowing enough tunes or not having a better rapport with my instrument, or being further along on flute or banjo now, it helps to remind myself of how far I've progressed in spite of all the other "stuff" that's wedged into my days. Sometimes I feel like the packrat of obligations....
No Michael playing the Wise Maid slowly and straight w/o any swing is horrible. It at least needs a bit of swing to make it salvageable as a tune. That B-part is so crap.
Dow, you tread on thin ice to characterize a tried and true masterpiece of ITM such as “The Wise Maid” to be "crap" if you endeavor to yourself be a composer of tunes. You know… it’s a throwing rocks in glass houses sort of thing.
Dare me to go middle of the road here - I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it's not twee, trite or sh*te either.....if it was , I wouldn't play it....or are you Dow and Jack geezers just having another joke?
When Dow writes a tune that lasts as long, is played and recorded by as many people, and is anywhere near as good as "The Wise Maid," then I'll sayhis tune is a masterpiece too.
Hey Jim what I said has nothing to do with you or your choice of tunes for your website. You're quite entitled to like it, just as I'm entitled to not. And Jack, no need to bring my tunes into this - they have nothing whatsoever to do with the Wise Maid.
To say that I'm not entitled to dislike a trad tune just because I try to write tunes myself is complete and utter nonsense. It's like saying if you start up a rock band of your own, then that means you have to say you like every band that has ever gone before you. Which is basically bollox.
Dow, where did I say you were "not entitled to dislike a trad tune just because I try to write tunes myself"? I just said you were treading on thin ice. Are you off your medication again?
Yeah but no but yeah but. I know it is "All around the world" but that is soh not fair cos I thought you were talking about "The maid behind the bar" but that's all right cos I like both tunes anyhow. So there!
no because I SOO can't believe you just said that because Michaela says she likes the Maid Behind The Bar (but don't listen to her because she says she's a virGAAN but everyone knows that's rubBAASH cuz she's doin' it with 'er own brother),
but anyway:
SHAT AP!
I weren't even supposed to be anywhere near there cuz I was with Destiny the whole time cuz she was crying because you know Dominic Malone? Well he says he likes the Wise Maid but then Rachael flicked ash in Liberty's hair (who I don't even know) but everyone knows the Wise Maid's a slag anyway cuz she completely plays with matches.
Hahaha dow in an internet cafe laughing at how thesession.org automatically stars out the occurrences of the word "p*ss" in my postings hahaha hoohoohoo. Oh Jeremy that's hilarious!
Please can sombody online now please tell me how you're supposed to work when you've been on an all-night bender w/o sleep and you feel like you're going to puke up any minute. Please I need your support. This is my brand new job and I go to a session with bb and get wasted and try and function the next day w/o sleep - it's now light. BRIDIE please tell me how you do this! What am I going to do?! Please session.org people help me! I have to work in an hour. This is the bad side of Irish music. Maybe I should give it up or just tell Bridie I'm not her friend anymore because she flicked ash in Nadine's hair who I don't even know but anyway shut up the lot of you because I was at the session the whole time downing pints of guinness and then Bridie came and stirred it all up saying that John J did this fing wot you don't even know about but anyway don't listen to her cuz she's missed a period. Shut up! You've been talking to Sheryl. Don't listen to her she picks her scabs.
Learning by ear. At speed
Learning by ear. At speed
Firstly, I am not looking for discussion re the relative merits of Learning by ear versus sheet music. I'm also hoping? that this will not degenerate into another argument re noodling in sessions.
Ok. My general approach to learning tunes whether by music or ear is to play them slowly just to ensure I am getting all the notes and then gradually speed up. Sometimes, this can be a very quick process. Maybe 5 minutes. Other times, it might take 5 weeks! I also find that using "slow down" software will help. Of course, the famous piece of advice "Listen, listen, listen" is invaluable. It really helps if you already have the tune in your head before you start. Sometimes, you don't need to learn it all.
Now, I know that some of our more experienced fiddlers here, eg Michael and Will for instance take the view that we should quickly get away from learning tunes at a slower pace(including software aids) and learn them at the speed in which they are actually played. I agree that we should get to this speed very quickly but to try and pick them up at that speed straight away seems a little problematic.
For instance, if you are in a session, how do you do this without being accused of noodling? Therefore, it would seem that you should have to do this at home either from a CD, a recording of a session or in the company of another player(s).
The other alternative and one which I am beginning to favour is that we shouldn't be learning to play tunes at all, unless we've heard them enough times for them to be "in our heads". The "Listen, listen listen" approach.
Of course, this isn't always how it works in practice. Tune learning workshops will often deliberately only teach tunes which nobody knows and everyone has to start from scratch. We also have to learn tunes more quickly for perfomance etc and, on many occasions, we are just impatient to learn a tune that we like. So, I often find I'm "pushing myself" to learn certain tunes more quickly and they then get "into my head" as I'm learning them as opposed to before hand.
So, if you become an experienced player, is the desired goal always to learn tunes in "real time" so to speak? I don't see any harm in playing them slowly at first as long as I get them up to speed fairly quickly. What do you all think?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Learn that at whatever speed you're comfortable playing at. After many years of playing you will be able to pick up tunes after a few times through at normal speed. Learning is a gradual and lifetime process. Most of all the music is about expression, not how many tunes you know, and how fast you play, and how quickly you can pick up a tune. I say don't worry and just enjoy yourself. that's what its about, enjoying yourself.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zug Isle fiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I think you are using the words learn, learning, learnt etc as specific goals or absolutes with regards to tunes. where as in actual fact, the whole process is much more fluid and never ending.
At one end, you hear a tune for the first time and you say to yourself, "I'm gonna learn that." And at the other end, you find yourself one night playing one of your favourites that you've known for yonks and you suddenly discover something new in it.
And everything else in between, from getting it into your head first to refering back to bits of it you might have wrong, is all part of the process. And it doesn't really matter how you do it as long as you use your ears and not rely on artificial means. (by all means use artificial means, just don'y rely on them)
But to answer the question, most of my tunes are gotten at full spead. But only because I can't be bothered any more to sit down in the house and pick through stuff.t
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
That sounds fair enough, Michael. Would you agree that you still need to have heard them a few times albeit subconsciously before you pick them up "at full speed"? Obviously, you wouldn't do this with a tune you'd never heard before?
I can quite often pick up tunes at full speed myself, even in a session sometimes, but it's usually because I've heard them before, whether I knew it or not.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
My advice is don't try learning a tune unless its already ingrained in your head. If you can whitsle or lilt the tune, give it a go. Do you really need to learn a tune right away, after just hearing it?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zug Isle fiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hi John,
I reckon you can learn tunes at full speed if they are the right tunes for you. In other words, the tunes find you, you don't find the tunes. There are certain tunes that just seem to take a hold after a few listens. I might hear other tunes that I really want to learn, but which I have the devil's own job nailing down. But as Michael says, it's all an ongoing process.
It's just a thought, but maybe this business of 'learning tunes' is not the way to think about it. Maybe it's more 'learning the music', and we go through a continual process of assimilation, which can never be complete, and that the ability to play particular tunes is just a part and by-product of that(?)
Mark
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I agree with the comments above and I like the idea of "tunes finding you". In general, I like to have heard tunes before I play them and, as you say Mark, it's much easier to learn them at full speed then.
However, sometimes you are "obliged" to learn different tunes while playing with others. I mean for perfomance rather than sessions. At the Strathspey and Reel meeting, we're expected to play a new tune "at speed" from the music. This doesn't always work for until I've played it a few times and it's in my head but I usually have the last laugh as the rest of them are still "depending" on the music for evermore.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I’m new to this and find that trying to learn a tune by ear at regular speed, I often miss notes that I haven’t heard …or haven’t heard properly until someone else points it out ....is this normal , or am I not listening properly ?
Or is this what Michael is talking about the different stages of learning ?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
A problem i find when learning tunes by ear is when i get the main theme of both the A & B sections i get lazy when it comes to the 7th & 8th bar of the section. These are the parts that i find most difficult to pick up, consequently i just end up throwing a bastardized version of the end of the section usually disguised with a flurry of bowed triplets. Any advice? or should i just work harder?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by jfiddlerh
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Ofcourse the tune has to be ingrained in your head before you attempt it. Though a lot of tunes are so obvious that this takes little or no time atall. But I just don't see how you could play a tune straight off the dots. It seems such an anathema to play a tune you don't know. How can you do that? (Unless, of course it's one of those tunes that are so predictable). OK so you could play the notes, but we all know there is a world of difference between playing the notes and playing the tune3
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
What a weird thing to say. If I look through the dots of a tune and sing it to myself in my head and decide I like it enough to want to learn it, I just learn it, just the same as if I heard it and liked it, I'd learn it. Can't think of any reason why not if you know how to play the tunes.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Unfortunately, that's how they think in some of these organisations. Some of them are really good "sight readers" and can play really complicated tunes straight away. However, as you probably know, this sounds all very mechanical and a bit stilted.
Personally, I don't like this method and tend to ignore the written music once the tune is in my head. Therefore, I play with the others there rather than from music(which most of them are doing). Then, I find it easier adapt the tune to my own or other player's style as required.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
The diference between hearing a tune being played for the first time and hearing it in your head by reading it off the dots is a seperate discussion. But either way, you decide whether you like it, then learn it (or begin the process of learning it). We agree on that.
But my argument is that you can't really play it, unless you know it.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Okay.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I don't think that's what Michael means, Mark. Obviously, if you read through the dots of a tune and like what you "hear in your head", then you will want to learn the tune. I can't see any harm in that. I've done that with some of the well known session tunes which I don't know myself (if you know what I mean).
However, just playing a tune straight from the dots at speed is a rather strange idea and not something I would normally choose to do. However, that seem to be the accepted practice at Strathspey and Reel Societies and the like.
Of course, this will also happen with other types of orchestras too, sometimes even on the night of "the performance" itself.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Sorry, Mike got back first.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
'There is nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.'
– Johann Sebastian Bach
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by grego
... Alright, maybe Bach couldn't hold a tune.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by grego
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I used to have a teacher who wouldn't let me put bow to strings until I could hear the tune in my head and be able to sing it back!!
Although you sometimes have to learn pieces at a slower than normal pace, sometimes you can't get the rhythm and feel of a piece at the slower tempo. I learn some pieces by ear and some from dots - often a piece learnt by ear makes more sense when I see it written down!!
Best of all are the pieces which find you - the ones you just realise you know without having had to make a conscious effort to learn them. Although there is also great satisfaction when you finally play something you've struggled to learn.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Tarrantella
I'm inclined to agree that you should get the tune stuck in your head before attempting to learn it (be it from dots, slowdowner, or whatever.) I didn't always think this way, but the tunes I know enjoy playing are ones that I was familiar with before trying them on an instrument.
As for picking up tunes "at speed." I suspect this comes doen to expertise with your instrument. If you can play anything that comes into your mind without searching around the fretboard (or keypad - is that what they call it on a buttton accordian?) then it should be easy to pick up by ear at speed. If you're at my level of competence on the instrument, the slowdowner will be required (or a very patient teacher.)
I'm trying to improve my ability to immediately translate from notes in the head to notes on the banjo, but it's going to take a little more time.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by grego
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
What kind of new things are you talking about Michael when
you say "one of your favourites that you've known for yonks and you suddenly discover something new in it." ?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I think Bach could indeed "hold a tune" - as all composers can. In his case, he was blind for the last few years of his life and dictated all his music to a copyist.
Trevor
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
You need to know how the tune goes in your mind in order to play it. This state can be reached in a variety of ways. It may take a minute, it may never happen. Just learn a tune at your leveel and you naturally progress. Don't try to push yourself to someone's level, you will only end up dissapointed in yourself.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zug Isle fiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
The best way to learn tunes must still the oral/aural tradition - sing tunes to each other. I know not all musicians are singers, but if you can't run through the tune in your head by whistling, singing or mentally playing it, you haven't learnt it yet.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
There's a danger in learning tunes "at speed" if you haven't established an understanding of how tunes are constructed, and ITM styles. I have heard people play that have learned tunes at speed during sessions and they leave out important stylistic details that define ITM. These folks don't appear to have a complete understanding of the style and structure before they endeavor to learn tunes like this. I have also heard people play tunes perfectly well that they learned at speed, but like I said -- they already understood the music and were proficient players.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I reckon patterns (or chunks) are hugely important in this, whether or not one is aware of them. Just starting out, one will learn, and play, each note more or less on its own. As time passes, one starts recognising, and playing groups of notes as one element. This not only speeds the learning process hugely, but also improves style and musicality.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
The danger of "chunking" is missed subtleties, when the actual tune doesn't quite match the building block. But mistakes happen in all learning.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Can you give examples Jack - I mean of the kind of
stylistic details people leave out....or is that too vague a question ?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Quit thinking and just play. You can play what you can and you can't force what you can't play. Just act natuarally. I think evryone is forgetting the nature of this music. That it was developed over centuries and families and communities played tunes for years and years and wereen't always learning new one's. Work on what you have and learn what you feel in your heart. To heck with the rest of it. If someone can play a tune you don't know, great just sit back and ennjoy a pint.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zug Isle fiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Ok Zug, I'll quit asking questions about it.Sorry.
So quit thinking and just play.
And post on a website about it as well....mmm
That'll get me back thinking about it again.
Sheidt..how DO you do it ?
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by BegF
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I can't pick up reel's at speed,yet... but I'm picking up all th polkas (at speed) as fast and as many as I can. :D
-Padraig
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Zug -- after reading your profile I don't know how you think we are suppose to take anything you suggest seriously. According to your profile -- you hardly even play ITM anymore except when you're drunk, and you tell us you mostly make stuff up. ITM isn't about you -- it's about the music.
Anyway, BegF, it's hard to be specific, but this is something I've noticed when people play tunes on their own, or I'm sitting next to them in sessions. I suppose it doesn't really matter to people who don't care at all about the music, but just want to drop acid or get drunk when they play.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
My advice is.....
Don't do ANYTHING till you can La (or lu, or li, or any other vowel you prefer depending on first language) the tune fully and recognise the different phrases etc.
I treid for ages to just sit down and ram a tune into my head, but this process often takes weeks, whereas the La-ing technique means tunes are much easier to grasp.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Folkie Junkie
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
It seems to me that the term "learning by ear" includes learning a tune "by ear" from another musician, not necessarily at top speed either, and maybe in sections. Trying to learn a tune at speed from a recording can be quite frustrating. And you might think you have the tune when you can hum it but I've found that oftentimes subtleties are missed that way. I've heard players that are quite fast but their tunes sound like typewriter music with no pulse, no style and no heart.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by radriano
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Does Irish music have to be "about" something, fer catsake? C'mon. It's just music. Every bit as important and non-important as that. Anyway, give yourself some time, Johnny J. The more you play and hear the stuff, the easier it gets to pick it up on the fly. "Noodling" isn't really that much of a problem so long as you're playing quietly and it's clear that you're in actuality trying to get the tune down, not just playing any ol' thing ("hey, I don't know the tune, but luckily I can just play harmony") to be playing at any given moment.
My two cents!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
ROFLMFAO @ Zug Isle Fiddler's profile and posting history. I nominate Nicky as the funniest person to have joined thesession.org in 2004.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Thank you, Zeeny Lee.
I've actually pick up quite a few tunes at speed already. As Michael and the others suggest, it helps if you know the tune "in your head" and have heard it a few times.
However, for some people, this is the desired and approved method whereas Jack and others (quite rightly, in my opinion) can see pitfalls in this practice. So, I don't see anything wrong with adopting other methods, eg from the dots, using a program like Transcribe to slow a recording down slightly---it's not that I need to play it at half speed or anything. About 80% usually suffices.
Of course, the important thing is to "Listen". That's half the battle. I'm sure everyone here will agree with that.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
You're right Dow, after reading his posting history I can see he's just taking the piss. But I think you can still give him a run for his money for funniest member.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I'd have to agree with that, John -- use whatever methods work. If somebody else doesn't like it, well, it just sucks to be them, I'm afraid.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
First it's compaqjohn looking for the "longest member:" http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/5187/comments#comment109122 , now Jack and Dow are looking for the "funniest member."
You people need serious help!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by grego
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
No, funniest.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
'Cause God knows what MY vote would be for the funniest member.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Get your mind out of the gutter grego... geesh!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Is Nicky supposedly a man or a woman or what? My eyes are watering really badly now and I've given myself a wheeze and a sore tummy from laughing. I'll be logging on w/o fail everyday to see Zug's latest post. Nicky you rock - I love your ideas about pure freeform trad. If you're not careful you'll start a new fashion - drop acid and feel the crazy psychedelic traditional artform flow through your body. Just don't let anyone sing Danny Boy or your trip turns bad and all your session buddies' eyes go black and they sprout horns and start copulating lewdly, and the flutes and fiddles morph into instruments of torture. Well at least they'll keep the bodhran company I suppose.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Oh, I don't mind you calling me "Johnny", Zina. It sounds quite affectionate.
As long as the rest of them don't follow suit.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
There are a few points here with:
"favourites that I've known for yonks and I suddenly discover something new in them."?
This is straight forward and what I take as the essence of diddley music. there a are various stages in learning/knowing a tune.
1. decide you fancy learning it. (this could be concious or subconcious, like making an effort, or, just hearing it and then being able to play it with no effort
2. play it for yonks
3. realise that the people you play it with have it slightly differently. Conciously or subconciously amalgamate the diferences until you have that splended amazing unison thing. (One of the best buzzes to be had)
4. be so comfortable that you start to fuck about with it. (this happens best when you all start to fuck about together)
5. this is when the enjoyment of a tune becomes sublime. this is when you realy steart to explore what the tune really is. (note, it's important here not to do it in isolation, othewize all you'll end up doing is making a different tune)0
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
After reading your last post, Dow, I agree -- he is funnier than you.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
So will all the bodhran players no doubt
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Another very important point that Zug said: "That this music was developed over centuries and that families and communities played tunes for years and years and weren't always learning new one's"
This compliments my crusade about there being too many tunes. I know quite a few really good players who I love to play with, bur rarely get passed stage 4 above
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
That's cuz there's only one God, Michael, and that's you.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I support the idea several of you mentioned and that is - SINGING as the path from the ears (or dots) to the fingers. Years ago I took some jazz improvisation lessons and my teacher insisted that I listen to a solo and be able to sing it back as a way of internalizing it. Let me tell you - it made a HUGE difference. I know the process is very individual but for me a direct path from the notes->brain->fingers leaves Me on the side as an observer. It never enters the heart - where I want to music to reside. Somehow, singing engages the heart and embeds the music so deeply that I can forget about notation, time signature, and commit the music to a type of memory that is longer lasting and more meaningful than otherwise. I do this every day. I listen to music in my car constantly and I sing the tunes not matter how bad my voice is., no matter if I have to break into a weird falsetto or change octaves or whatever. It does work for some of us. Try it sometime.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by improziv
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
True Michael, I doubt that someone like Peter Horan sits down and learns new tunes, but he does know plenty already. John's originnal question wouldn't be from a perspective of someone like that. Truth is -- the current generation of musicians do like to learn new tunes. If you're someone who's learning the music -- you have to learn new tunes. In my case, some of my newest tunes are old standards. I just learned Bag of Spuds and Sailor on the Rock today. (These tunes came up frequently on my trip)
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Bag O' Spuds seems to be making its way around the country, Jack. We played it in two different sessions in Belfast.
Isn't it nice that we don't have to learn ALL of the tunes? Only the ones that we like. It gives me a perverse pleasure to sit and listen to a tune that I have no interest in learning and watch other people enjoy themselves with it. Sometimes they look at me as if to say "how can you not know this tune?"
Not to highjack, but since Mr. Gill is on this thread...I have to take back something I said in another thread. I was on some jag about not playing "performance" tunes in a session. As I found out recently, if everyone in the session is a brilliant player, you can play whatever tunes you darn well please.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Jode
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Going back to John's original post, in particular paragraph 4, and the point made by improziv, there is something different going on when a tune is learned at speed (or approximately so). I am finding it harder and harder to learn music in little slowed-down bits. Humming the tune to myself while I get through the day means that I can usually go home and play the thing without all that fooling around with slow-downers. The ornaments are there, the feel is there. (And I'm halfway to official Crazy Old Lady status because I wander around town humming to myself.....Must acquire more cats and stacks of newspapers.......)
I guess it makes sense that our brains are set up that way, as writing and other forms of notation are pretty new developments.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
There was an unusual tune that was coming up in nearly every session I was at in Ennis, (A Michael McGoldrick tune I believe,) and one morning I woke up with it in my head. I sat down and learned it from memory, and then checked it out at the next session. This would be a great way to learn all my tunes. *sigh*
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Be The Tune, Jack......
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I dunno, I wouldn't say that it's a case of "singing = music imprinted on your heart and soul" so much as it's simply that if you can sing the tune, since your voice is an instrument that really doesn't mean you need to have an ability to physically play it, then you actually know the tune. There's no technicalities or such getting in the way of getting the tune out (other than that some of us can't carry a tune vocally to save our lives).
If you're not a dead beginner on your instrument, you could probably pick up your instrument(s) and figure out Twinkle Twinkle or Baa Baa Black Sheep (ah, the classics) pretty much on the first go, mainly because we pretty much all know those tunes really really well.
And you can go too far in the other direction, too. I know players (mainly beginner through intermediate) who can't play a tune slowly to save their lives; the tune is more kinesthically learned for them, generally, so slowing it down makes it harder for them to play. That's not ideal either.
All things in moderation, including moderation.
p.s. Johnny J, d'you know, I totally missed that? I just happened to actually call you John because I wasn't teasing or anything. ;)
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
But another part of knowing a tune is being able to play it at what ever speed you want, especially really sloww
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I love to play The wize Maid really slow, and it's surprising how many people can't do itI
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Oh, I know what you're saying about the kinesthetic learning, Zina. I fall into that pit all of the time, and have to go back and "fix" the tune by slowing it down and getting rid of the rubbish that has crept in.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
For me, when learning by ear, it is not necessarily the speed, but the continuity or lilt that I need to hear. I would rather have someone play it for me at a medium tempo, with rhythm.
Say you are trying to learn a tune and you ask someone to play it for you. If they really break it down into just one note at a time, I cannot hear the tune. In order to learn it, I need to hear at least a segment of it played.
If I learn a tune off a tape at speed, I need to go back and listen repeatedly to make sure that I have it the way it is played on the tape. I find that I may take "short cuts". Play the tune the way I think it should be played, or the way I think it sounds.
And as Michael inferred earlier, I don't think you are ever finished learning a tune. That's the beauty of it.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Michael, playing anything slow is proof of the pudding. I stay away from slow stuff in public; it's like being naked. I'm not ready for that yet....
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Let us know when you are ready Batlady.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Since I've run a tune-learning session, I've found that in the beginning, you really do have to break tunes down into really short phrases for beginners. They still have to worry about learning what "jumping down a third" feels like in the fingers. Once they're past that, it's much easier for them to learn in bigger phrases.
It's fun to watch, I've one woman in particular who when we first started could learn many three notes of a tune at a go, and that was it. She had to figure out where the notes were on her whistle, and all. Now she can learn two to four measures at one time, learning in whole phrases. Soon I expect she'll be learning whole parts in one gulp.
It's a blast seeing her go!
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
"many" = "maybe" ... sheeeeeesh....
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Zina - that's ok. I was just saying how it works for me. I was not implying that my method makes my experience better than others. I just feel that I know the tune so much better this way. If I sight read music (which I can) not much is retained. It kind of goes through some strange path to my fingers.
As for playing slow - Sometimes you can take a fast tune and turn it into a whole other interesting thing by slowing it down and adding embelishments.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by improziv
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
It Is fun to watch., Zina. We have some players who have had a heck of a time getting past that three-note phrase. Some went away and never came back, but the ones that stayed are now swapping tunes.
And for Jack, I'd now like to play Hector the Hero with sultry saxophone backup. :-o
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Michele Sims
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Or not embelishing it (I mean not give it any more or less embelishment than you would at speed), just playing it nice and straight and steady and lovely and letting the melody really sing for its self. It's actually one way to sort out the melodies from the dross. Try it with the wise maid, it really is beautiful (don't play it like a hornpipe though, play it straight)
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
This parallel has been drawn many times before on this site, but learning music is very much like learning a language. After an introductory course in conversational Polish, would you expect to be able to go into a pub in Krakow and join in a conversation at the bar? The chances are, you'd be able to pick out a few familiar words or phrases and whilst your brain was processing them, the rest would fly past in a blur. After some weeks, or months (depending on your age, the way your brain works and how often your clean your ears out) surrounded by the language, you might be able to understand the gist of peoples conversations. But it could take anything from a year to a lifetime to be able to absorb information without the use of some kind of conscious thought mechanism, and to be able to participate freely in conversation. Once you have achieved fluency (even if it is your first language), you never stop assimilating new vocabulary and expressions.
All this applies equally to learning music. The timescale may not necessarily be the same. The starting point may be different - music does not usually carry semantic value, so two different styles or music are often more mutually compatible than would be two different languages. But the principle is the same. We start by hearing a collection of sounds - which may be pleasant, or exhilarating - in which we can hear a pattern, but cannot make out the fine details. Then we gradually learn to pick out finer and finer details, until we can, if we wish, hear a tune as a succession of individual notes. When this process has become second nature, then we can start inflecting, ornamenting and varying the notes in our own way.
Sorry - it's a bit vague and unscientific. Set the ravens on me.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Don't like the Wise Maid fast or slow. Also don't like Mick McGoldrick tunes. They annoy the hell out of me and make me want to smash things and throw chairs.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hi David (It is David, isn't it - I thought you might have cosen mountain goat because you then have the same initials as Michael Gill. And then I thought it might be some Chagallian thing?) I think that's more or les what I was saying above. You should learn the music, not 'some tunes'. Learning 'some tunes' is like learning a language from a phrase book.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Mark, darlin', are you off the Prozac again?
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Er...I meant Dow, not you, Mark/Ottery...
Actually, I learn tunes, myself. Otherwise I'd feel too much like the Irish woman who took stepdancing classes from us and who informed us that we did NOT need to give her any corrections in class, because The Dance was in her soul. I felt it would be better applied to her soles, but we all have our thing...
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I like Zina's perspective on how you learn a tune depending on your comfort with your instrument. I can sing just about any tune, while it's playing... think I know it... and then don't have a clue how it goes. It was in my head just fine when the CD was on but not when I picked up the fiddle. Since flute was my first instrument, I often "learn" tunes on the flute, then on the fiddle. With the fiddle, I'm still figuring bow direction, which fingers to hold down at which time etc whereas with the flute, I often just play a note, don't think about which one it is until after and then go... oh I started that on an A... good for me... then I know where to start on the fiddle. Thing is that I can "feel" where a tune goes on a flute, closer to singing it, than I can on the fiddle, so far but then again, I've been playing flute for 30 years... makes a difference.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by ANNY
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I wonder what McGoldrick would think about Dow's tunes...
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
It is like learning a language, it takes time to get fluent. I went to music lessions from the age of 8 with Liz, Yvonne, Etá kane, and Mirella Murray . We were thought by the excellent Mary Finn from Sligo, each week we were given one tune and that continued until we were nearly 20. But as those years went by we got fastest at picking them up and eventually could play them at any speed because we understood the tunes and more important, Irish Trad as a whole. We became fluent in the music. Today I can pick up tunes very fast and play them at any speed I want and will learn them by ear. I think newbies will make mistakes with the endings of the parts of the tunes if they try and learn them to quick. For this reason use the ABC or notation until you have 100 or more tunes, if only to check you accuracy. This is how all these variations come about, from people making up their own versions and eventually passing them on to somebody else.
I think, in general, Irish music has gotten to fast over the years and every new trad band has to go faster and faster and I feel it destroys the music and turns it into ........AAACCHH
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Ain't nothing wrong with McGoldrick's tunes
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Cjohn, what a lucky introduction to the music! I am filled with envy. Many years back, I heard a session tape of Liz and Mirella. Someone had sped up the tape so that it sounded like they were playing in E flat. Still, fast as it was, it was lovely music.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Jode
Played the Teatottaler/Temperance Reel slowly tonight for a student. That's a nice tune too and has it's own rhythm built in.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Ya some introduction alright. 10 in the class, all today play professionally and quite good if I do say so myself. Great teacher make the difference.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Thanks for all the replies so far. You know, things are so easy when you're a beginner and, apparently so, when you are truly an experienced musician. It's the part in between, where most of us are, that seems to present the problems.
Actually, I've been playing for quite few years now and do have quite a large repertoire. My main problem is that I'm not very focused and play too much of a mixture.
Interestly, those players who start as children don't appear to remain as "In Betweenies" for quite as long and suddenly emerge as really good players. Of course, they've still been playing for about ten years or more. It just seems that way to some of us oldies.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Actually, I learn tunes, myself. ...
But Zina, surely you ARE learning the language, by learning tunes. The point is that it's wrong to think of it as a matter of learning tunes, or 'building up a tune bank'. If you were learning French, you would learn words and phrases, but would regard them as building blocks towards your ability to 'speak French'. You would only be happy with being a '100 phrase French Speaker with a barely understandable French accent', if your need for French was purely utilitarian - i.e. if, say, you wanted enough phrases to get by for a fishing holiday. (In musical terms this might equate with 'learning enough tunes to play at a barn-dance', or to get through this weeks' Strathspey Society meeting'.)
If people think like this, then they can get away from the frantic need to build and, maybe harder, maintain/retain an enormous and probably under-used tune base, and simply used tunes to learn the language, then the language to understand and maybe play the rest of the tunes. (Not that there is anything wrong with knowing lots of tunes!)
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I was mainly teasing you, Mark! ;) Yes, I do know what you mean -- it's just that there's so many bits to learn, and it's so easy to forget how it was when you were starting out. (Rather like when you swore as a child that you'd never treat your kids like your parents treated you...and then waking up one morning to realize that you've turned into your mother or father!)
When you're first starting out, not only do you have to learn tunes in smaller phrases and chunks than you will later on, but you also have much more difficulty learning style and such at the same time as you're learning tunes. Oftentimes, you can't even hear that what you're playing is not the same thing as what you're hearing (watching a workshop where someone's trying to teach rolls come to mind). Sooner or later, of course, it all comes out just fine, but there's that period (longer or shorter for different people) where I personally think that players shouldn't worry too much about learning "tunes" vs. "style" or even "The Music" (with caps, even).
Not that that's what I think you're saying, Mark, but I wanted to make sure that anyone reading this thread who happens to be at that stage knows that that's normal and just fine.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Yes, sorry, I probably come across as being a bit pedantic. I was just trying to leaven the learning music = learning tunes thing, which I think bedevils this particular arcane corner of the musical Universe. Obviously my comments might be a bit harsh to someone struggling with their first half dozen tunes, but from my experience, whereas good musicians invariably have lots of tunes, the converse is not necessarily so.
Your comments about what what people hear when they are playing brings up a very interesting area. It’s not just beginners. I hear some quite experinced people play and wonder what it is they think they sound like. They say “Oh I got this from such and such a record,” and then play something completely unrecognisable. And I know from recording myself how different the perception I have of how it sounds with regard to phrasing, say, can be from the hard reality picked up by the microphone.
Scary stuff...
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Yes, Mark, I guess it circles back round to getting the tunes you have under your belt and really know them well. Until you have the technical facility to be able to play your instrument without having to worry too much about things like tone and intonation and just getting the tune out (say, about two to five years of good solid work -- depending of course on the person and their priority level -- from a dead start), I'd say don't worry *too* much about the music/tunes thing. If you're listening to enough of this stuff properly, you'll not be able to help picking up some of that naturally anyway. And in the meantime, you can be learning tunes and your instrument.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Two to five years?!?! I must be a late bloomer then, 20 years plus and still hoping to reach that level, not worrying about tone and intonation and losing the tune mid-stream.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I put the priority level part in JUST for you, Will... *smirk*
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Well, I thought 2 to 5 years was a bit ambitious too.
I still have to work on tone and intonation or, at least, keep on top of things. The fear of "losing the tune midstream" is always with me, especially if I leading or playing the melody solo.
When I play the mandolin, it's less critical but I can still fall apart on an off day and some times the ornaments and effects come much easier than others.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Will... I feel your pain brother.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Yes, well, wise-acres, once you get past the whole beginning thing, *then* you can obsess and be just as worried as the rest of us that you're not playing "with technically flawless execution PLUS a stylistically mature, inventive, highly developed and highly personal interpretation." All the time. Even after the fourth Guinnii.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
And I've played with two out of the three of you, so don't go thinking you can fool me with this modest business of not worrying about tone and intonation and losing the tune. :-p
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
True, true, over the years I've neglected the music for family, remodeling, writing, reading, juggling, biking, snowboarding, cooking, eating, drinking (hic), getting an edufication, and doing laundry. Sigh.
Way up above, jfiddlerh asked about the end phrases of tunes and his tendency to just bluster through them. While it's true that many tunes share similar sounding (or even the same) end phrases, the deeper you get into this music, the more you realize that the subtle differences are what makes this music so diverse and inviting of exploration. This is especially important in the end phrases (of each part of the tune), and discerning the subtle differences goes a long way to understanding each tune's unique, individual personality. In turn, this helps you learn tunes by ear. At speed even.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Will... b-but... I didn't do any of that stuff... what about me... what's my excuse? (now... where'd I leave my sepuku sword?)
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
You didn't drink, Jack!? *gasp*
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Er, Jack, you've *never* done laundry?! Ewwwwww......
"B'god he knows a great rip of tunes, but bagh the smell of him!"
:oD
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hey... I DID drink... and I DID do laundry... hey, I even cooked... I feel so much better now... thanks you guys.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hope I didn't give you another "whiff of the crack" there Will.
hahaha
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
We're here for you, Jack. *smirk*
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Seriously, whenever I teeter on the brink of despair over not knowing enough tunes or not having a better rapport with my instrument, or being further along on flute or banjo now, it helps to remind myself of how far I've progressed in spite of all the other "stuff" that's wedged into my days. Sometimes I feel like the packrat of obligations....
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
The Packrat of Obligations...okay, one of you tunesters, write us one called that, please...
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Lol "whiff of the crack." I'll never convince anyone that the triple meaning was intentional on my part, eh?
Day in the life of a dog: "Woke up, ate, sniffed some butt, napped, ate, sniffed some more butt...."
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Sure... uh huh.
# Posted on December 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Michael, regarding "Wise Maid", is this the sort of speed you'd call 'hornpipe slow and straight"? or slower still?
http://worldfiddlemusic.co.uk/mp3/wisemaid.mp3
Just curious.
Jim
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
jim, what ever you feel like. that's quite slow, but try it even slower, slur more notes together and play the rolls, espedcially the first f sharp
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by ...
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
No Michael playing the Wise Maid slowly and straight w/o any swing is horrible. It at least needs a bit of swing to make it salvageable as a tune. That B-part is so crap.
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Dow, you tread on thin ice to characterize a tried and true masterpiece of ITM such as “The Wise Maid” to be "crap" if you endeavor to yourself be a composer of tunes. You know… it’s a throwing rocks in glass houses sort of thing.
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Dare me to go middle of the road here - I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it's not twee, trite or sh*te either.....if it was , I wouldn't play it....or are you Dow and Jack geezers just having another joke?
Jim
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
When Dow writes a tune that lasts as long, is played and recorded by as many people, and is anywhere near as good as "The Wise Maid," then I'll sayhis tune is a masterpiece too.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hey Jim what I said has nothing to do with you or your choice of tunes for your website. You're quite entitled to like it, just as I'm entitled to not. And Jack, no need to bring my tunes into this - they have nothing whatsoever to do with the Wise Maid.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
To say that I'm not entitled to dislike a trad tune just because I try to write tunes myself is complete and utter nonsense. It's like saying if you start up a rock band of your own, then that means you have to say you like every band that has ever gone before you. Which is basically bollox.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Dow, where did I say you were "not entitled to dislike a trad tune just because I try to write tunes myself"? I just said you were treading on thin ice. Are you off your medication again?
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Okay,
*I really love McGoldrick tunes and the Wise Maid*.
There I said it. How annoying is that? Just when you thought you'd wound me up
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
BTW I was wondering, are you back from Ireland yet?
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Unfortunately.
I guess I'm lucky to have made it back safely... but I have to say -- I have exorbitant amounts of fun when I'm over there.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Dow, The Wise Maid was submitted to the tune database by Jeremy himself. So there's an end to the argument about its merits
Trevor
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
*puzzled look*
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Yea Dow... so grow up! hahahahaha (inside joke)
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Jack I preferred it when you were in Ireland - it was so much more peaceful round here - what a relief! No loudmouth Californians
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Wow Dow -- we're both in total agreement for once. I preferred it when I was in Ireland too.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Is the maid really wise?
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Sae..................... guid ripples?
-Padraig
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Pádraig
The Wise warhorse
Yeah but no but yeah but. I know it is "All around the world" but that is soh not fair cos I thought you were talking about "The maid behind the bar" but that's all right cos I like both tunes anyhow. So there!
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
It was "Kiss the Wise Sligo Maid Behind the Bar" John.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Mark, we always have loudmouth Californians with us. Like...me, for instance. Born and raised. I just happen to live in Colorado. ;)
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I can't believe that you've got a lot to say for yourself, Zina.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
I may not have a lot to say for myself, but I can certainly go at at length about it, Johnny J. ;)
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Boy can she... and how! hahahaha
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
John: no but, yer but, no but, yer but,
no because I SOO can't believe you just said that because Michaela says she likes the Maid Behind The Bar (but don't listen to her because she says she's a virGAAN but everyone knows that's rubBAASH cuz she's doin' it with 'er own brother),
but anyway:
SHAT AP!
I weren't even supposed to be anywhere near there cuz I was with Destiny the whole time cuz she was crying because you know Dominic Malone? Well he says he likes the Wise Maid but then Rachael flicked ash in Liberty's hair (who I don't even know) but everyone knows the Wise Maid's a slag anyway cuz she completely plays with matches.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Picture me p*ssing myself cuz that's going to be so lost on the Americans like *oo my god I so can't believe you just said that* John!
(very p*ssed Dow)
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Hahaha dow in an internet cafe laughing at how thesession.org automatically stars out the occurrences of the word "p*ss" in my postings hahaha hoohoohoo. Oh Jeremy that's hilarious!
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Please can sombody online now please tell me how you're supposed to work when you've been on an all-night bender w/o sleep and you feel like you're going to puke up any minute. Please I need your support. This is my brand new job and I go to a session with bb and get wasted and try and function the next day w/o sleep - it's now light. BRIDIE please tell me how you do this! What am I going to do?! Please session.org people help me! I have to work in an hour. This is the bad side of Irish music. Maybe I should give it up or just tell Bridie I'm not her friend anymore because she flicked ash in Nadine's hair who I don't even know but anyway shut up the lot of you because I was at the session the whole time downing pints of guinness and then Bridie came and stirred it all up saying that John J did this fing wot you don't even know about but anyway don't listen to her cuz she's missed a period. Shut up! You've been talking to Sheryl. Don't listen to her she picks her scabs.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Learning by ear. At speed
Dow... you're in an internet cafe right? Get a cup of coffee, relax, and take your mind off of ITM. Try to think about puppies or something like that.
# Posted on December 12th 2004 by Phantom Button