Hi folks - I'm trying to properly diagnose the noise I have coming off my fiddle lately - a lot of gravely, breathy and husky tone. If I was a sultry nightclub singer this might be desirable but for my fiddle, no. I've conclulded that this is likely the rosin I'm using, my strings or a combination of both. I realize there's a lot of threads already devoted to the use of rosin, cleaning strings, etc. I've read them all and they're extremely helpful. Definitely lots of solutions here and how to carry them out but I just want to make sure I have the problem correctly identified.
The problem is I have a lot of scratchy, unclean sound across the strings and the tone is becoming more uneven. My E string is squawking a lot lately. The general result of all this is sort of a filmy, breathy, fuzzy *layer* in my playing. Yes, I know - could be my playing! - but it wasn't always this way. It has definitely become worse now that it is very cold and dry here in Vermont.
I use cheap orange rosin that comes in the wooden block. Not a good choice from previous thread comments? I don't use much rosin at all and I clean my fiddle and strings with a soft cloth after every use. More rosin made it much worse. Removing nearly all of it produces the best case right now. I use Pirastro Synoxa strings which I have always liked and the current ones are about 6 months old. I play on average an hour a day. I really like my bow, which has never been rehaired in the 6-7 years I've had it.
I know this could be a bow problem and also my fiddle tends to *bark* a little more in winter but I'm trying to test cheaper solutions first. I'm thinking of cleaning the strings and bow hair as suggested on other threads and using Colophane Millaint-Deroux rosin, suggested by Will for playing in low humidity . Strings? I don't know, guess it's time to change them but with what? Am I on the right track here? Anyone else have thoughts about what's causing this? Thanks as always for your great feedback.
Before you do anything drastic, try to find out how you sound a few feet away. Bow noises often don't travel all that far. One way to do it is to get a fiddler friend (as good as you or better) to play your fiddle. First, stand as close as possible so that you can hear the same sound as (s)he's playing. Then move further away, spiralwise, so that you hear the sound at different distances and in different directions as you walk around the player. Them repeat the experiment with you and your friend reversing roles. This procedure, I believe, will give you a truer idea of how sound comes out of a fiddle than fussing around with mics (which always alter the sound anyway). Then try it with another bow - your friend's perhaps, or another fiddle.
Trevor
I agree with Tevor - experiment before spending money but I've found the darker rosins usually better - and I would think your bow would probably need rehairing after 6-7 years!
Based on the amount you're playing, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Rehair the bow. I'm guessing the hairs are shot and you've built up a sizable "cornice" of rosin on them. Cleaning the hairs would help, but you're still left with played-out hair. If you're not convinced of the difference this can make, try playing with a different (newer haired) bow.
2.) Install new strings. Even the best strings lose their tone over time. Six months is long enough--you'll find new strings will sound fuller and in tune as soon as they've settled in. If you like how the Synoxas sound when they're new, stick with them. I like Pirastro Evah Pirrazis for their full, smooth tone.
3.) Darker rosins generally give more bite, so I'd stay with the ligher Millant Diroux for a smoother sound (assuming you like it).
4.) Have you changed your bowing habits? Are you leaning on the bow more? Playing in noisy settings (busy pub, ceilis, etc.) can lead to the habit of pressing on the bow, and you'll hear more bow noise when you play in a quieter place.
Bottom line - here's how I think about spending money on my music. How my fiddle sounds to me is important. I'm the only person who has to listen to every noise it makes (other people can leave the room if they want . So I make it a budget priority to set aside money to rehair the bow at least once a year, and to buy strings every three to four months (I play anywhere from 5 to 15 hours a week). If my fiddle sounds good, I'm eager to play it. And keeping the "hardware" as consistent as possible helps me be aware of and diagnose any changes in tone--it's usually either the weather (esp. humidity) or me, not the strings or bow, etc.
Good points Trevor. I'll try that. I realize the sound will be more offensive the closer to my ear. It was however watching and listening to a video of my playing that convinced me to start this thread. We played for some dancers yesterday and the event was videotaped. I was given one of those clip on mics to use, attached to my chinrest with the mic up near my bridge. I loved the freedom of movement but not the sound I heard when watching the video later. Supposedly the sound guy was an experienced one. I don't use amplification enough to know if the mic was properly placed or how it might have affected the sound. I just know I didn't like it.
There's the trouble. That mic picked up all the bow noise you don't normally hear (at least not amplified).
But I'd still stand by my advice above - you'll get a cleaner sound if you rehair the bow and change strings.
(Realizing that new hair can sound bitey and raspy for a day or two. Some rehairers dope the hair up with powdered rosin, which gives overkill on grip. You can either give the rehairer a cake of the rosin you use and ask him/her to apply that as the first coat, or ask that the hair be left unrosined and you'll take care of it yourself (about a 5-10 minute process of getting that first layer on the fresh hair).
And is your bridge as it should be? The back of the bridge (the flat part facing the tailpiece) should be absolutely perpendicular to the belly. The bridge always shifts slightly when you retune (and with a lot of playing), often tilting slightly towards the fingerboard. This means that the feet of the bridge are no longer in full contact with the belly, and this will affect the tone. There is also the danger, if things are left to go too far, of a spectacular bridge breakage or collapse - I've seen it happen! Make sure the string grooves in the bridge are well lubricated with pencil graphite so that the strings move easily in the grooves when tuing.
Also check to see if the bridge hasn't shifted sideways with time. Look down the fingerboard at the bridge - the bridge should look symmetrically spaced with reference to the axis of the fingerboard.
Trevor
Some people get their sound post adjusted seasonally, to accommodate changes in humidity. And/or put a Dampit or homemade humidifer in the case during the dry Vermont winters.
Have you done anything different, like introduce humidity (worm or sponge) into your case or violin?
It sounds to me like you have too much rosin...I don't use very much rosin at all..it really does not take much...try wiping the hairs of your bow, under tension, against your trousers...do you see a lot of rosin coming off? If you do, then keep doing this for a little while, but don't use too much pressure..this can help to pull excess rosin off of your hair...now make sure to clean your strings also..I use a very fine steel wool like 3 or 4 O very gently to do this..
Also try and stick to one brand rosin..some folks change rosin for the winter and summer...I tend not to..the above mentioned rosin is good..I use Bernandel...
Oh, if you have added water to your case/violin, chances are that the hair has adsorbed too much of this (like a barometer)...the hair is very sensitive to added humidity or lack of..ever seen curly haired people when its humid?
Steel wool on the strings! Gives me the shivers to even contemplate it. I get excess rosin off my strings with isoprop, which evaporates very quickly. Just hold the fiddle so that none of the stuff can drip on the varnish or fingerboard.
Trevor
Thanks for the comments everyone. Yes, the mic, Will. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it sounded so bad yesterday. And I agree, it matters less whether others hear the white noise. If I don't like the sound of my fiddle, it's a problem. I'm going to try Obligato strings (I like a warmer tone than I think the Evah Pirazzis may give me - too loud?) and Millant Deroux light rosin. I apprentice with a luthier one day a week (I hadn't brought this problem to him yet) so I guess my next day in the workshop with involve learning to rehair my bow as well as tweaking the soundpost which I had planned on. My fiddle always gets really tight in the winter.
I hadn't checked the bridge Trevor. I know it's not too much out our whack but maybe the feet have lifted ever so slightly so I'll check that. I've never used a humidifier in my case since my fiddle spends so little time there. When I'm not playing the fiddle hangs from a hook on the ceiling. I find I play a lot more if I have it out all the time. The case is only used when going from one point to another. Maybe it needs to spend some time in the case with a humidifier now that the wood stove is cranking? The stove is in the basement, nowhere near the fiddle but nevertheless, the house is dry.
If you like a warn sounding string, you could also try Violinos..I personally like Dominants, after using Tonicas, another nice warm string, Larsens, very direct and strong, Eudoxas, very nice and warm but gut, Olives, more direct, but still gut.
Trevor and Sunnybear, you can get pre-dosed cloth wipes with alcohol to clean the rosin off your strings--no risk of drips, and it does a much better job of getting rosin out of the string wrappings than steel wool (yikes!). Of course, you can make your own by putting a few drops of isoprop on a hanky.
Winterhawk, unless you humidify your house, I would advise against leaving the fiddle out when it's not being played. I spent a winter in Vermont, and the house got cracking dry--nearly as bad as out here in Montana (where our average humidity is lower anyway). Not only will such drying affect the tone of your fiddle, you risk developing seam splits and actual cracks in the wood.
BUT, if you start keeping it in the case, and humidifying that, go slowly. Even worse than low humidity are abrupt changes in humidity.
Yep, the Obligatos are a touch darker sounding than the Pirrazis, but the Pirrazis are not as bright as most of the reviews I've read claim they are, and I've had them on four different fiddles, as well as on many friends' fiddles. Thomastik Dominants are fine, as long as you don't mind replacing the A string every week or two (the wrapping likes to come undone--if you don't have that problem with them, you might at least consider using a different E string just for better tone).
As usual, the geezers/geezeresses/guys/gals have replied with tons of sound & sensible suggestions before I even got to read the thread! Could I just add, how close to the bridge are you actually bowing? Around mid-way between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard? And in more or less a straight line? Try it, see if it makes any difference.
I've heard the crunchy sound before when rosin on the bow crystallises through having too much of it......if you ever bow your E-string and get no sound (or a delayed note) then that's a sure sign (as well as the obvious snowfall on the fiddle surface).
On strings, one set stands out for having a soft tone - the Corelli Crystals. Low price - soft tone, and will also reduce bow noise.
Try to get some 'silica gel' sachets from your hardware store - they eat moisture and keep things dry. Ideal for the fiddle case.
Know what? Sometimes I like hearing a bit of "crunch" as you put it. To me, it's just one more possible inflection that can be put on a note. I always think Ted Furey was a master of this.
But, yeah, wrong mic/ wrong mic position can give a very false picture.
At the risk of sounding like a nit-picky know-it-all....
Jim, winterhawk lives in Vermont--low humidity winters, wood stove heating. The silica/rice trick is great for those of you who live on islands in the Atlantic Ocean, but many of us are desperate to *add* some mositure to our cases.
From long personal experience in such climes, I don't think those bow hairs are too soggy. Just the opposite.
I'd also point out that rosin is tacky stuff, and attracts dust and dirt like cat hair to a cashmere sweater. Another reason to keep the fiddle *and bow* in the case when not in use.
Guilty as charged. My bow lives outside the case as well. Hmmm.. I hate to tuck it away when I can walk by, grab it for a quick ditty and then hang it back up. But sounds like I need to right now.
Jim - good point about where the bow is hitting the strings. Normally, I'm pretty steady about staying between the bridge and fingerboard. Lately I've been playing a little closer to the fingerboard than usual since the harshness is less apparent there but of course this produces a duller, fuzzier sound but at least it's not like barking harbor seal. And yes, as WIll points out, I *need* humidity. It's bone dry already and we've got months of winter to go. Happy skier, unhappy fiddler!
I think those who have touched on the humidity have it right. When I first started looking at discussions here, I got some really good advice from Will and others about keeping the humidity up during the winter. I heat with a wood stove as well and as soon as that gets going the humidity in the fiddle case goes down about 25%.... even with the sponge in the spice jar. Before following all the sage advice my fiddle would get so bad it just buzzed. The sound would just make me want to cry. At times the strings would even pop as the tuning pegs would lose their hold. Adding humidity worked wonders. My fiddle like it at 70% in the case. That may seem really high but if it gets down to around 50% I start hearing the buzzing and I wouldn't call it harshness, just a funny extra sound.
The mic placement on the recording..... that's a big one. Just tried recording some waltzes and we fought with it like crazy.... I know I didn't sound that awful (really, really). Just made me cringe. Good mic picked up everything, even my fingers on the fingerboard. Ended up placing the mic behind me about 2 feet and over my head about 2 feet.... much better!!!
Will mentioned it, but I think you really need to inspect your fiddle for cracks. I have an old one and if I do not take specific care about humidity, the cracks will open up. When they open up, the sound quality deteriorates in a similar way to your description. There is a wolf-tone like buzz that is introduced by the crack and the clarity disappears.
But hey, with global warming, perhaps I won't have to worry so much about it here in Minnesota.
Jode - yea, that's the first thing I looked for and thankfully there are none that I can detect. And don't count on global warming to help you. From one blue stater to another, remember that many of the politicains in our current administration tell us it really doesn't exist and is just another ploy of tree-hugging environmentalists.
I'd second the advice given above about cleaning your strings. One of the cheapest ways of doing this is by using methylated spirit or white spirit (both of which contain the necessary alcohol) and a cloth or clean duster. You shouldn't have problems with spillage on the varnish if your'e careful. The effect of simply doing this simple task can make the strings resonate so much more. Also, try polishing the instrument using a suitable product from a fiddle shop - that is also likely to improve the sound of the instrument, and smells nice too! If you're concerned about humidity you can buy this rather unusual contraption (I think called a dehumidifier) - looks like a worm, that attaches onto an f-hole of the fiddle and curls inside it. The device soaks up the excess moisture whilst the fiddle is inside its case.
Also, maybe its worth considering that many players - especially classical violinists, use an E string of a different brand to the rest of their strings. Some people find that a slightly more upmarket E-string ensures that a quality of sound in the upper register is as good as the lower registers - as the E string is very wiry and thin, certain more affordable brands can produce a weaker tone. Pirastro Olive is a fine choice. Personally, I stick with Dominants all over - as although Olives have great sound I can't afford them, and they break rather too readily!
Hey North Americans. Have you ever taken the dampit out of your fiddle after arriving in Ireland, while seated at a session? You get the funniest looks.
Winter...I am glad you do not have cracks. They are an expensive pain, but my fiddle is worth it in the long run.
The other thing about bowing is to make sure you have a relative perpendicular line across the strings...so the bow is running parrallel to the edge of the fingerboard, or the line of the bridge. You don't want the bow waggling around too much. That can cause some crunchiness and general messiness.
Play in front of a mirror and watch how your bow moves. And try it on each of the strings.
The Dampits (worms) are to ADD humidity...you soak them in water, dry them off, and stick it through the F-hole..I use one all winter long..you can leave then in while you play...does not significantly alter the tone...I would never ever use polish on my violin
In response to the comments from Jode and Sunnybear. The polishes I speak of are recommended and sold by violin makers and repairers - nothing to be afraid of. The small number of products that can be purchased make use of many natural ingredients - we're not talking about furniture polish here. Many players use them - particularly a number of classical players with valuable instruments who are fastidious in ensuring that theire violins are kept in the best possible condition. But its really just a matter of opinion at the end of the day. I would rather not use water on my fiddle - although its been rather too close to a couple of beer-related incidents in the past!
How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Hi folks - I'm trying to properly diagnose the noise I have coming off my fiddle lately - a lot of gravely, breathy and husky tone. If I was a sultry nightclub singer this might be desirable but for my fiddle, no. I've conclulded that this is likely the rosin I'm using, my strings or a combination of both. I realize there's a lot of threads already devoted to the use of rosin, cleaning strings, etc. I've read them all and they're extremely helpful. Definitely lots of solutions here and how to carry them out but I just want to make sure I have the problem correctly identified.
The problem is I have a lot of scratchy, unclean sound across the strings and the tone is becoming more uneven. My E string is squawking a lot lately. The general result of all this is sort of a filmy, breathy, fuzzy *layer* in my playing. Yes, I know - could be my playing! - but it wasn't always this way. It has definitely become worse now that it is very cold and dry here in Vermont.
I use cheap orange rosin that comes in the wooden block. Not a good choice from previous thread comments? I don't use much rosin at all and I clean my fiddle and strings with a soft cloth after every use. More rosin made it much worse. Removing nearly all of it produces the best case right now. I use Pirastro Synoxa strings which I have always liked and the current ones are about 6 months old. I play on average an hour a day. I really like my bow, which has never been rehaired in the 6-7 years I've had it.
I know this could be a bow problem and also my fiddle tends to *bark* a little more in winter but I'm trying to test cheaper solutions first. I'm thinking of cleaning the strings and bow hair as suggested on other threads and using Colophane Millaint-Deroux rosin, suggested by Will for playing in low humidity . Strings? I don't know, guess it's time to change them but with what? Am I on the right track here? Anyone else have thoughts about what's causing this? Thanks as always for your great feedback.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Before you do anything drastic, try to find out how you sound a few feet away. Bow noises often don't travel all that far. One way to do it is to get a fiddler friend (as good as you or better) to play your fiddle. First, stand as close as possible so that you can hear the same sound as (s)he's playing. Then move further away, spiralwise, so that you hear the sound at different distances and in different directions as you walk around the player. Them repeat the experiment with you and your friend reversing roles. This procedure, I believe, will give you a truer idea of how sound comes out of a fiddle than fussing around with mics (which always alter the sound anyway). Then try it with another bow - your friend's perhaps, or another fiddle.
Trevor
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
I agree with Tevor - experiment before spending money but I've found the darker rosins usually better - and I would think your bow would probably need rehairing after 6-7 years!
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
A string change will also help certainly. Anything but steel has usually lost some tone after 6 months.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by meemtp
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Based on the amount you're playing, I'd suggest the following:
1.) Rehair the bow. I'm guessing the hairs are shot and you've built up a sizable "cornice" of rosin on them. Cleaning the hairs would help, but you're still left with played-out hair. If you're not convinced of the difference this can make, try playing with a different (newer haired) bow.
2.) Install new strings. Even the best strings lose their tone over time. Six months is long enough--you'll find new strings will sound fuller and in tune as soon as they've settled in. If you like how the Synoxas sound when they're new, stick with them. I like Pirastro Evah Pirrazis for their full, smooth tone.
3.) Darker rosins generally give more bite, so I'd stay with the ligher Millant Diroux for a smoother sound (assuming you like it).
4.) Have you changed your bowing habits? Are you leaning on the bow more? Playing in noisy settings (busy pub, ceilis, etc.) can lead to the habit of pressing on the bow, and you'll hear more bow noise when you play in a quieter place.
Bottom line - here's how I think about spending money on my music. How my fiddle sounds to me is important. I'm the only person who has to listen to every noise it makes (other people can leave the room if they want
. So I make it a budget priority to set aside money to rehair the bow at least once a year, and to buy strings every three to four months (I play anywhere from 5 to 15 hours a week). If my fiddle sounds good, I'm eager to play it. And keeping the "hardware" as consistent as possible helps me be aware of and diagnose any changes in tone--it's usually either the weather (esp. humidity) or me, not the strings or bow, etc.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
To Tarrantella's comment I'd add that if you're playing daily, your bow probably needs rehairing about every 6 months.
Trevor
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Good points Trevor. I'll try that. I realize the sound will be more offensive the closer to my ear. It was however watching and listening to a video of my playing that convinced me to start this thread. We played for some dancers yesterday and the event was videotaped. I was given one of those clip on mics to use, attached to my chinrest with the mic up near my bridge. I loved the freedom of movement but not the sound I heard when watching the video later. Supposedly the sound guy was an experienced one. I don't use amplification enough to know if the mic was properly placed or how it might have affected the sound. I just know I didn't like it.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
There's the trouble. That mic picked up all the bow noise you don't normally hear (at least not amplified).
But I'd still stand by my advice above - you'll get a cleaner sound if you rehair the bow and change strings.
(Realizing that new hair can sound bitey and raspy for a day or two. Some rehairers dope the hair up with powdered rosin, which gives overkill on grip. You can either give the rehairer a cake of the rosin you use and ask him/her to apply that as the first coat, or ask that the hair be left unrosined and you'll take care of it yourself (about a 5-10 minute process of getting that first layer on the fresh hair).
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
And is your bridge as it should be? The back of the bridge (the flat part facing the tailpiece) should be absolutely perpendicular to the belly. The bridge always shifts slightly when you retune (and with a lot of playing), often tilting slightly towards the fingerboard. This means that the feet of the bridge are no longer in full contact with the belly, and this will affect the tone. There is also the danger, if things are left to go too far, of a spectacular bridge breakage or collapse - I've seen it happen! Make sure the string grooves in the bridge are well lubricated with pencil graphite so that the strings move easily in the grooves when tuing.
Also check to see if the bridge hasn't shifted sideways with time. Look down the fingerboard at the bridge - the bridge should look symmetrically spaced with reference to the axis of the fingerboard.
Trevor
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
As long as we're being thorough....
Some people get their sound post adjusted seasonally, to accommodate changes in humidity. And/or put a Dampit or homemade humidifer in the case during the dry Vermont winters.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Have you done anything different, like introduce humidity (worm or sponge) into your case or violin?
It sounds to me like you have too much rosin...I don't use very much rosin at all..it really does not take much...try wiping the hairs of your bow, under tension, against your trousers...do you see a lot of rosin coming off? If you do, then keep doing this for a little while, but don't use too much pressure..this can help to pull excess rosin off of your hair...now make sure to clean your strings also..I use a very fine steel wool like 3 or 4 O very gently to do this..
Also try and stick to one brand rosin..some folks change rosin for the winter and summer...I tend not to..the above mentioned rosin is good..I use Bernandel...
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Oh, if you have added water to your case/violin, chances are that the hair has adsorbed too much of this (like a barometer)...the hair is very sensitive to added humidity or lack of..ever seen curly haired people when its humid?
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Steel wool on the strings! Gives me the shivers to even contemplate it. I get excess rosin off my strings with isoprop, which evaporates very quickly. Just hold the fiddle so that none of the stuff can drip on the varnish or fingerboard.
Trevor
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Yep, steel wool...very very fine gauge..I would much rather risk the windings on the strings than the finish on my fiddle!
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Thanks for the comments everyone. Yes, the mic, Will. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it sounded so bad yesterday. And I agree, it matters less whether others hear the white noise. If I don't like the sound of my fiddle, it's a problem. I'm going to try Obligato strings (I like a warmer tone than I think the Evah Pirazzis may give me - too loud?) and Millant Deroux light rosin. I apprentice with a luthier one day a week (I hadn't brought this problem to him yet) so I guess my next day in the workshop with involve learning to rehair my bow as well as tweaking the soundpost which I had planned on. My fiddle always gets really tight in the winter.
I hadn't checked the bridge Trevor. I know it's not too much out our whack but maybe the feet have lifted ever so slightly so I'll check that. I've never used a humidifier in my case since my fiddle spends so little time there. When I'm not playing the fiddle hangs from a hook on the ceiling. I find I play a lot more if I have it out all the time. The case is only used when going from one point to another. Maybe it needs to spend some time in the case with a humidifier now that the wood stove is cranking? The stove is in the basement, nowhere near the fiddle but nevertheless, the house is dry.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
If you like a warn sounding string, you could also try Violinos..I personally like Dominants, after using Tonicas, another nice warm string, Larsens, very direct and strong, Eudoxas, very nice and warm but gut, Olives, more direct, but still gut.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Trevor and Sunnybear, you can get pre-dosed cloth wipes with alcohol to clean the rosin off your strings--no risk of drips, and it does a much better job of getting rosin out of the string wrappings than steel wool (yikes!). Of course, you can make your own by putting a few drops of isoprop on a hanky.
Winterhawk, unless you humidify your house, I would advise against leaving the fiddle out when it's not being played. I spent a winter in Vermont, and the house got cracking dry--nearly as bad as out here in Montana (where our average humidity is lower anyway). Not only will such drying affect the tone of your fiddle, you risk developing seam splits and actual cracks in the wood.
BUT, if you start keeping it in the case, and humidifying that, go slowly. Even worse than low humidity are abrupt changes in humidity.
Yep, the Obligatos are a touch darker sounding than the Pirrazis, but the Pirrazis are not as bright as most of the reviews I've read claim they are, and I've had them on four different fiddles, as well as on many friends' fiddles. Thomastik Dominants are fine, as long as you don't mind replacing the A string every week or two (the wrapping likes to come undone--if you don't have that problem with them, you might at least consider using a different E string just for better tone).
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
As usual, the geezers/geezeresses/guys/gals have replied with tons of sound & sensible suggestions before I even got to read the thread! Could I just add, how close to the bridge are you actually bowing? Around mid-way between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard? And in more or less a straight line? Try it, see if it makes any difference.
I've heard the crunchy sound before when rosin on the bow crystallises through having too much of it......if you ever bow your E-string and get no sound (or a delayed note) then that's a sure sign (as well as the obvious snowfall on the fiddle surface).
On strings, one set stands out for having a soft tone - the Corelli Crystals. Low price - soft tone, and will also reduce bow noise.
Try to get some 'silica gel' sachets from your hardware store - they eat moisture and keep things dry. Ideal for the fiddle case.
Jim
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
...if you can't get silica gel, then ordinary uncooked white rice in a net wrap will do the same thing....just don't bust the net wrap...
Jim
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Know what? Sometimes I like hearing a bit of "crunch" as you put it. To me, it's just one more possible inflection that can be put on a note. I always think Ted Furey was a master of this.
But, yeah, wrong mic/ wrong mic position can give a very false picture.
Kris
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by kris
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
At the risk of sounding like a nit-picky know-it-all....
Jim, winterhawk lives in Vermont--low humidity winters, wood stove heating. The silica/rice trick is great for those of you who live on islands in the Atlantic Ocean, but many of us are desperate to *add* some mositure to our cases.
From long personal experience in such climes, I don't think those bow hairs are too soggy. Just the opposite.
I'd also point out that rosin is tacky stuff, and attracts dust and dirt like cat hair to a cashmere sweater. Another reason to keep the fiddle *and bow* in the case when not in use.
# Posted on December 6th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Guilty as charged. My bow lives outside the case as well. Hmmm.. I hate to tuck it away when I can walk by, grab it for a quick ditty and then hang it back up. But sounds like I need to right now.
Jim - good point about where the bow is hitting the strings. Normally, I'm pretty steady about staying between the bridge and fingerboard. Lately I've been playing a little closer to the fingerboard than usual since the harshness is less apparent there but of course this produces a duller, fuzzier sound but at least it's not like barking harbor seal. And yes, as WIll points out, I *need* humidity. It's bone dry already and we've got months of winter to go. Happy skier, unhappy fiddler!
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
The Dominant E string is not a good one in my opinion...go with a Gold Label or Westminster for the E
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
If the silica gel or uncooked rice escapes into the fiddle then you've got yourself a ready-made shaky egg
Trevor
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
I think those who have touched on the humidity have it right. When I first started looking at discussions here, I got some really good advice from Will and others about keeping the humidity up during the winter. I heat with a wood stove as well and as soon as that gets going the humidity in the fiddle case goes down about 25%.... even with the sponge in the spice jar. Before following all the sage advice my fiddle would get so bad it just buzzed. The sound would just make me want to cry. At times the strings would even pop as the tuning pegs would lose their hold. Adding humidity worked wonders. My fiddle like it at 70% in the case. That may seem really high but if it gets down to around 50% I start hearing the buzzing and I wouldn't call it harshness, just a funny extra sound.
The mic placement on the recording..... that's a big one. Just tried recording some waltzes and we fought with it like crazy.... I know I didn't sound that awful (really, really). Just made me cringe. Good mic picked up everything, even my fingers on the fingerboard. Ended up placing the mic behind me about 2 feet and over my head about 2 feet.... much better!!!
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by ANNY
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Just goes to show how far the music has traveled, that fiddlers of Irish tunes have to worry about too little humidity in winter.....
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
I think the crunchy noise is the best bit.
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by Leftheris
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Especially with a good roll
Trevor
# Posted on December 7th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Will mentioned it, but I think you really need to inspect your fiddle for cracks. I have an old one and if I do not take specific care about humidity, the cracks will open up. When they open up, the sound quality deteriorates in a similar way to your description. There is a wolf-tone like buzz that is introduced by the crack and the clarity disappears.
But hey, with global warming, perhaps I won't have to worry so much about it here in Minnesota.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by Jode
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Jode - yea, that's the first thing I looked for and thankfully there are none that I can detect. And don't count on global warming to help you. From one blue stater to another, remember that many of the politicains in our current administration tell us it really doesn't exist and is just another ploy of tree-hugging environmentalists.
# Posted on December 8th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
I'd second the advice given above about cleaning your strings. One of the cheapest ways of doing this is by using methylated spirit or white spirit (both of which contain the necessary alcohol) and a cloth or clean duster. You shouldn't have problems with spillage on the varnish if your'e careful. The effect of simply doing this simple task can make the strings resonate so much more. Also, try polishing the instrument using a suitable product from a fiddle shop - that is also likely to improve the sound of the instrument, and smells nice too! If you're concerned about humidity you can buy this rather unusual contraption (I think called a dehumidifier) - looks like a worm, that attaches onto an f-hole of the fiddle and curls inside it. The device soaks up the excess moisture whilst the fiddle is inside its case.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by jakki S
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Also, maybe its worth considering that many players - especially classical violinists, use an E string of a different brand to the rest of their strings. Some people find that a slightly more upmarket E-string ensures that a quality of sound in the upper register is as good as the lower registers - as the E string is very wiry and thin, certain more affordable brands can produce a weaker tone. Pirastro Olive is a fine choice. Personally, I stick with Dominants all over - as although Olives have great sound I can't afford them, and they break rather too readily!
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by jakki S
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
Hey North Americans. Have you ever taken the dampit out of your fiddle after arriving in Ireland, while seated at a session? You get the funniest looks.
Winter...I am glad you do not have cracks. They are an expensive pain, but my fiddle is worth it in the long run.
The other thing about bowing is to make sure you have a relative perpendicular line across the strings...so the bow is running parrallel to the edge of the fingerboard, or the line of the bridge. You don't want the bow waggling around too much. That can cause some crunchiness and general messiness.
Play in front of a mirror and watch how your bow moves. And try it on each of the strings.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Jode
And to jakki's point above, my source says to stay far away from any polish. Just clean the fiddle with a little water and a soft paper towel.
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Jode
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
The Dampits (worms) are to ADD humidity...you soak them in water, dry them off, and stick it through the F-hole..I use one all winter long..you can leave then in while you play...does not significantly alter the tone...I would never ever use polish on my violin
# Posted on December 9th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: How do I get rid of crunchy bow noise?
In response to the comments from Jode and Sunnybear. The polishes I speak of are recommended and sold by violin makers and repairers - nothing to be afraid of. The small number of products that can be purchased make use of many natural ingredients - we're not talking about furniture polish here. Many players use them - particularly a number of classical players with valuable instruments who are fastidious in ensuring that theire violins are kept in the best possible condition. But its really just a matter of opinion at the end of the day. I would rather not use water on my fiddle - although its been rather too close to a couple of beer-related incidents in the past!
# Posted on March 20th 2005 by jakki S