Up until summer last year I was a relatively fit twenty-something (something = multiple of ten nowadays). Then I had the first chest infection of my life, which took several weeks and several courses of antibiotics to clear up. A second bout cleared up quickly earlier this year, but now I'm on a cocktail of antibiotics for another persistant chest infection.
It's ocurred to me that I might be re-infecting myself with something that's found a home in the darkest orifices of my wooden flute. I do try and clean the thing regularly, but there are nooks and crannies which get little attention. Any bugs there (specifically, last year it was H. Influenza) would receive regular blasts of warm, moist air and have a chance at reproducing, laying dormant during the dry periods.
Does this make sense? Has anyone had a similar experience?
GOD - that must suck
I don't know what I'd do if my whistle gave me regular infections. Mind you, it kinda did. I let a friend play it, then a couple of days later she got chicken pox, by which time I'd already played the damn thing so I'm now stuck at home with the pox, typing stuff on www.thesession.org-TA DAA!
Just meeting your friend would be enough to catch chicken pox, so you might not have got it indirectly via the whistle. Look on the bright sides: a) the sooner the better (have you heard of 'chicken pox parties'), b) you have time (like me) to catch up with thesession.org. Get well soon and *don't scratch*, no matter where the spot is!
on a semi related theme - my brother once had his highland pipes infested by ants in the days when highland pipers commonly used hide bags and glycerine seasoning. He got an unpleasant surprise when he blew them up and I think he has been pyschologically infected ever since.
I sometimes see whistle/flute players swapping their instruments with others, just to try them out. I always thought that was a bit risky and, quite frankly, disgusting.
Unfortunately, since you cannot boil a flute, maybe you could try and freeze it and see if the germs die, or maybe have a hot tandoori dinner just before playing and blast the germs with your hot breath.
Best wishes for a good recovery though.
Cath
i've heard that dry surfaces don't support germs, and also that 24-48 hours is plenty of time to allow for germs to no longer be a problem, so if you dry your flute and then leave it for a couple days, maybe play a whistle or something, you should be safe.
It's a long time since I did my degree in microbiology, and have forgotten loads of it....hence my silence on this thread till now. Bacteria can form spores and lay dormant. Viruses will die quite quickly outside of a host. I honestly can't remember whether opportunistic commensals such as _H. influenzae_ will sporulate but my guess is they might well do. Any medics on board here?
Martin - man, that truly sucks. However, unless you play much differently than me, your lips only come into contact with the outside of the headjoint and perhaps a tad bit inside the embouchure hole. Also, you're blowing into your instrument not sucking it to get the tone, so even if there is "stuff" inside your flute only your finger tips are going to come into contact with it. Overall, I'd really think the chances of reinfecting yourself via your flute are slim to none or we'd hear about this a lot more with woodwind and brass players.
I think we're just starting to see the rise of more resistant bacterias and viruses due to heavy antibiotic use and the use of anti-viral/anti-bacterial soaps, handwipes, etc. Just a fine example that Darwin was right...things evolve, and with all our fancy medicine we can now see them evolving right before our eyes instead of taking generations to evolve like in the past.
you can kiss Ottery all you want...I'm sure most of us won't mind.
Listermint, listerine, whisky, soap and water all work well for whistle heads. I wash my delrin seery with dishsoap from time to time when I notice "stuff" has adhered to the inside of my flute.
I think wooden flutes would be harder to clean without harming/drying the wood. Perhaps a bit of alcohol around the tone hole followed by a prompt oiling would do the trick.
Yes Eric, they evolve by passing plasmids (little circular bits of DNA) and bacterial viruses to each other, and antibiotic resistance genes is one group of plasmids that it makes sense to pass on - even between different bacterial species.
My guess is that when you breath in you also suck in air out of the flute, and that may contain some airborne spores.
Apparently one of the reasons that the flute took a relatively long time to become accepted in the West of Ireland (don't know about the rest of the country) is that they were believed to carry TB.
Maybe the explanation is a lot less arcane than all of this. Maybe you get a bug sitting at a session, where there's a whole crowd of people sitting close together. Maybe playing the flute is quite an exertion and your body becomes immunocompromised, plus, if you drink, alcohol acts to immunocompromise also.
Ottery - what goes on between a flautist and their consenting flute is none of my business!
Rab - since the most constant airflow in the flute is out, and because it's continually being gently washed by moisture from our breath that nicely runs down onto agressive bodhran players, do you really think there is much chance of spores taking hold and later floating back up? Then, add on the normal swabbing of a flute and oiling...I still think it seems remarkably unlikely we're going to get anything from our flutes (I do think it's possible, but so is the chance I'll fall down my stairs at home today and die...which might make a lot of folks happy, but I'm too cantankerous to appease THOSE people).
Oh, we're cross posting Rab, I think your second theory is highly likely, except everyone knows Guiness is good for your constitution...I mean, they can't be lying to us in those commercials, can they?
Yeah I suppose statistically you're more likely to get a cold (leading to a bacterial infection) off another human than a flute. Especially if a new person turns up at the session whose bugs you haven't acquired resistance to yet.
I'd think that bacteria could survive quite well in a wooden flute - it'll be nicely lined with all sorts of stuff out of your lungs, and it should be permanently humid - ideal conditions for bacteria to survive. Whether or not you'd keep re-infecting yourself, I don't know - surely you'd become immune to that strain, eventually? Let's hope!
The only way I can think of disinfecting it would be with UV light, though I'm not sure where you'd go to do that nor whether it could damage the flute by drying it. Anyone have any idea?
On a related matter, I've started cleaning the (plastic) head of my tin whistles with alcohol, because I kept getting spots on my chin at the place where it rests! The problem is that bacteria can proliferate wildly once out of reach of all the agents of defence that keep them under control when they're on your own skin. It is possible to re-infect yourself this way. My brother once got blood poisoning by putting on a jacket that had some dried blood inside the sleeve, from an accident he'd had about a week previously. Bacteria must have proliferated in the not-quite-dried blood, and got into the wound - he was lucky not to lose the arm. Not, like, trying to scare you or nuttin'!
Thanks for all the input, I was imagining that I was inhaling spores or bugs while playing, but as you say Eric, we should expect this to be common among woodwind players. I get the impression it isn't. I don't know why the bugs I'm getting don't respond well to antibiotics. According to culture and sensitivity tests treatment should be straight forward. That's why I had the notion of being reinfected when playing.
Not sure if the freezer would help Cath, bacteria and spores can survive sub zero temperatures. But I will be more careful with cleaning, swabbing with whiskey + oiling seems a good idea
Session immunocompression? What an excellent idea! Could we get funding to study this in more depth? I can see the paper now: ' Sessionally Transmitted Diseases exacerbated by alcohol induced immunocompression'. We do, by the way, have a regular who attends come what may, coughing and sneezing over everyone.
Anyway, thanks again for the input. I'm not really disabled by this, it's more of a nuisance than being ill. I'm just fishing for an explanation other than "you're getting old and decrepid, expect more of this from now on" :-|
Martin - I'm glad it's not disabling, but anything that keeps you away from playing, like respiratory infections do, is a drag.
I hope you're feeling better soon. One important thing about cleaning with whiskey is you need to "test" it to make sure it's good enough to clean your beloved flute...and sometimes you need to test it before and after cleaning the flute!
Hmmm. Alcohol depresses the immune system? But it also kills germs, and the higher the octane level the lower the germ survivor count. SO this would imply that sessioneers need to get the pub to provide free whisky instead of free beer.
Worth a try, anyway. ;)
A friend of mine who's prone to chest colds always cures them by the following method:
1) run thehottest bath you can tolerate.
2) immerse yourself in the bath, carrying a pint bottle of whisky (which you must be careful to keep above the water).
3) drink the entire pint as fast as you can.
4) call your wife in to haul you out, dry you off, and tuck you into bed.
5) sleep for 24 hours.
Disclaimer: this is provided not as a health care recommendation but as a testimony to the germicidal effects of alcohol.
Martin, I'm not buying the Flute as Germ Reservoir idea, as I think that 20+ years of flute playing has made me healthier than I would have been otherwise. (Unless it's all due to quitting smoking, which would leave me out on a limb...)
But I think you could disinfect your flute once or twice a year without harming it. I'd use peroxide or a weak bleach solution (not so good on silver keywork) without hesitation. I've also used 99% isopropyl to remove the oil before gluing cracks on a couple of flutes, and it didn't discolour the wood.
I don't see how regular flute-playing, drinking in moderation, and avoiding second-hand (and first-hand) smoke would do you anything but good in the long run. Plus I'd be willing to bet that the all fun you have at a session is good for the old immune system.
On the other hand, I've read that one serious chest or bronchial infection can predispose you to more. One would hope that your risk of re-infection would decrease with time and, of course, clean living. If you're susceptible, an annual flu shot might be in order.
Sounds like just good fun! I might try that...do I have to wait till I get a cold, though?
But seriously, alcohol will supress your T-cell and B-cell response in the same way it slows down nerve impulse transmission. It has a generalised effect on cell membrane fluidity. That's the main reason I use it on a regular basis ;¬?
Good point about smokey sessions, Dougie, roll on...em... whenever it is...2005? 6?
I reckon most of it's down to people. Maybe sh!te collected inside the flute doesn't help (it'd be fun to plate out [ie on agar plates - to grow up different strains of bacteria] some gunk extracted from some 19th century flutes - hell, we might even find some _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_!), but people are much bigger reservoirs of fresh pathogens. Just one sneeze might be all it needs. Remember, there are over 200 different virus species which will produce the symptoms of the Common Cold - and the Flu virus (much rarer than people give it credit - if you've ever had real flu, you know all about it - you literally feel nearly dead - like the worst hangover you've ever had plus you're too weak to move) has special features in its genome which enables it, as it recombines, to continue to change its expression of surface-coat proteins.
We recently had an open day at the place where I work. I gave 8 X 20 minute talks to a total of 140+ members of the public. These people were at very close range, as I was showing off a fancy high-tech microscope which I "drive" to groups of 10ish in a confined space.
I was hoarse by the end of it, but the overuse of the gab had weakened it so I got a sore throat, which then became a general cold and chest infection. All of that lost me maybe 100miles of running. But I reckon I got this thing from being exposed to a bunch of people, many from outside of London, who carried cold viruses with a "regional accent" - slightly different DNA sequences, to which my immune system ahd no experience. Oops, and I forgot to mention the legendarily copious quantities of wine quaffed at the slap-up meal supplied to all the contributors after the open day....but that's not much different from the usual, so it must have the "different" people. That's my theory anyway!
I wouldn't put your flute anywhere *near* a freezer! Guaranteed to be very, very bad for it. The humidity in the wood will crystallise and expand, causing damage to the wood; everything else, and particularly the metal parts, will contract; no no no!!
Freezing is how to *preserve* a virus, not kill it; and most bacteria will survive quite happily too.
I don't know if respiratory germs can really thrive well enough outside the body, for a flute or anything else to be a threat, all this is speculation really. Like Danny says, the most dangerous repository for them is other people.
It would be fascinating, Danny, if you were to make some cultures from swabs from your flute! How about it, as an experiment? Might be somewhat shocking... By the way, you will definitely be breathing air from inside the flute - you don't hold it away from your face on the in-breath, do you? You breath with the embouchure hole right up against your mouth.
If anyone does want to de-bug an instrument, I still can't think of any better way than UV. It's used routinely for sterilising drinking water, and scientific/medical apparatus. I'm sure some form of unit is cheaply available into which you could place the sections of a flute.
Exposure to smoke could definitely prolong your infections, Conway. If it causes inflammation to your airways (which it is especially likely to do if you've had an infection, as they will be hyper-reactive) then it compromises your immune response. I have asthma and am prone to respiratory infections, so I hardly ever go to sessions any more, over here in the UK - roll on the changes, as Danny says! It's brutal but that's the way it is...
If your local sessions are very smoky, why not organise some tunes at your own place, if that's possible?
Hmmm... you've got me thinking, Nell. But where to publish? In a music journal or a Microbiology journal.
What about the Journal of Ethnomusicological Bacteriology?
BTW, I'm not sure UV would be kind to a wooden flute either!
'Journal of Ethnomusicological Bacteriology', haha!
You could also make a study of disease transmission among the Irish Music community. Events like the Willie Clancy Summer School, or any of the major festivals, bring people from every corner of the earth - they must be a great opportunity for exchanging new variants of bugs. There was a really horrid cough doing the rounds at WCSS this year...
Well, we know sunlight bleaches things, even treated wood. UV is even higher energy electromagnetic radiation, so my guess is it would weaken the chemical bonds in the wood structure. Maybe just occasional exposure would be ok. I'm just guessing, though.
Ottery, what do you mean!!!!
As I'm married, yes, I have kissed someone, although at the moment my husband's growing a beard, so I'm not too crazy about kissing him.
Could a beard be an ideal place for bacteria to grow?
Should flute/whisle player have a beard?
How do you get the UV into all those dark recesses? Anyway, given that this does not seem to be a common problem, I'll just have to blame myself rather than the flute. Certainly the intimate, usually smokey atmosphere of a busy session might well not help. Sometimes we go round peoples houses, but it is good to get out on an evening. Ta for all the ideas again.
Oh, I did have a beard last summer, but shaved my bottom lip to accomodate the embouchure. The wife was not happy.
Hi Cath,
I mean't, why is it risky and disgusting to swap a flute with someone, but not to kiss them? (not that I'd want to kiss most flute players I know - particularly not the bearded ones)
I personally think that the more different bacteria etc you get exposed to, the more resistant you are.* We brought up our child (now 17) in an environment of absolutely unhygenic filth and squalor(!) and he literally NEVER had a day off school sick (This had the added advantage that we could take him out for skiing holidays, saying that he still had less absent days from school than other kids)
* Of course this wouldn't apply to plague, or ebola etc etc
Yes... but Conway is trying to shift a recurring infection, isn't he, so I imagine the last thing he needs is lots of new bacteria that could make opportunistic use of his depleted state.
I think the 'more bacteria is good' school of thought has its merits, but it could be taken to extremes. You don't *really* want to live in an environment of filth where serious water-borne, effluent-transmitted diseases like cholera and dysentery can enjoy the benefits, do you? Respiratory infections are different, of course, but still - more isn't *always* better...
OT - Ottery: the viking graves were down on the machair not up on the moors. And being of the female persuasion I always felt that a bronze bustier was more flattering than a horned helmet , Actually, in that climate we all wore fetching waterproof outfits by Helly Hansen, lots of woolly jumpers, wellies and watch caps....hardly the stuff of fantasy, alas.
Someone's flute became infected with haemophilius influenza during a summer camp after kissing Ottery who was wearing a bronze bustier at the time. I think there is a message in all of this.... ;o)
Well it was a wild night. I have a glass of whiskey waiting to disinfect the head joint. But it's going to have to wait, a long time...
And if the bugs have survived the 3 mile cycle there on a frosty night, the black stuff, the smoke, the craic, and the the 5 mile cycle back (!) then good luck to them.
i would never freeze a flute, thats all i can say!
and also, you are going to probably have to start eating healthy, cut out sugar and beer and bread and milk for a while, because these are all things that can weaken the immune system and create mucus (milk is good for you, but makes mucus, and mucus doesnt seem like what you need with chest infections).
i mean, we all hate to do it, and i know myself dont, but... if i was having that serious of problems i would stop eating crap and only eat good food, because the medicine cant work if your body is too unhealthy to use it.
Infectious flutes
Infectious flutes
Dear Doctor,
Up until summer last year I was a relatively fit twenty-something (something = multiple of ten nowadays). Then I had the first chest infection of my life, which took several weeks and several courses of antibiotics to clear up. A second bout cleared up quickly earlier this year, but now I'm on a cocktail of antibiotics for another persistant chest infection.
It's ocurred to me that I might be re-infecting myself with something that's found a home in the darkest orifices of my wooden flute. I do try and clean the thing regularly, but there are nooks and crannies which get little attention. Any bugs there (specifically, last year it was H. Influenza) would receive regular blasts of warm, moist air and have a chance at reproducing, laying dormant during the dry periods.
Does this make sense? Has anyone had a similar experience?
TIA
Martin
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
A pathologist friend of mine keeps telling me that the "Germ Theory" is all overrated. I'm not exactly sure what that means.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by dumpingsirkey
Re: Infectious flutes
GOD - that must suck
I don't know what I'd do if my whistle gave me regular infections. Mind you, it kinda did. I let a friend play it, then a couple of days later she got chicken pox, by which time I'd already played the damn thing so I'm now stuck at home with the pox, typing stuff on www.thesession.org-TA DAA!
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Folkie Junkie
Re: Infectious flutes
Overrate: to give too high value to. HTH!
Just meeting your friend would be enough to catch chicken pox, so you might not have got it indirectly via the whistle. Look on the bright sides: a) the sooner the better (have you heard of 'chicken pox parties'), b) you have time (like me) to catch up with thesession.org. Get well soon and *don't scratch*, no matter where the spot is!
Martin
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
on a semi related theme - my brother once had his highland pipes infested by ants in the days when highland pipers commonly used hide bags and glycerine seasoning. He got an unpleasant surprise when he blew them up and I think he has been pyschologically infected ever since.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Alasdair
Re: Infectious flutes
I sometimes see whistle/flute players swapping their instruments with others, just to try them out. I always thought that was a bit risky and, quite frankly, disgusting.
Unfortunately, since you cannot boil a flute, maybe you could try and freeze it and see if the germs die, or maybe have a hot tandoori dinner just before playing and blast the germs with your hot breath.
Best wishes for a good recovery though.
Cath
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Cath
Re: Infectious flutes
mmmmm Tandoori-flavoured flute! Can I borrow it?
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by grego
Re: Infectious flutes
Just waiting for womeone to write:
"There was this one time, at band camp..."
ha ha
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Murrough
Re: Infectious flutes
womeone = someone
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Murrough
Re: Infectious flutes
i've heard that dry surfaces don't support germs, and also that 24-48 hours is plenty of time to allow for germs to no longer be a problem, so if you dry your flute and then leave it for a couple days, maybe play a whistle or something, you should be safe.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Dont
Re: Infectious flutes
It's a long time since I did my degree in microbiology, and have forgotten loads of it....hence my silence on this thread till now. Bacteria can form spores and lay dormant. Viruses will die quite quickly outside of a host. I honestly can't remember whether opportunistic commensals such as _H. influenzae_ will sporulate but my guess is they might well do. Any medics on board here?
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
Cath,
have you ever kissed anyone?
Was that disgusting?
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Ottery
Re: Infectious flutes
Martin - man, that truly sucks. However, unless you play much differently than me, your lips only come into contact with the outside of the headjoint and perhaps a tad bit inside the embouchure hole. Also, you're blowing into your instrument not sucking it to get the tone, so even if there is "stuff" inside your flute only your finger tips are going to come into contact with it. Overall, I'd really think the chances of reinfecting yourself via your flute are slim to none or we'd hear about this a lot more with woodwind and brass players.
I think we're just starting to see the rise of more resistant bacterias and viruses due to heavy antibiotic use and the use of anti-viral/anti-bacterial soaps, handwipes, etc. Just a fine example that Darwin was right...things evolve, and with all our fancy medicine we can now see them evolving right before our eyes instead of taking generations to evolve like in the past.
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Jayhawk
Re: Infectious flutes
Would Listermint or something similar work? (I mean for disinfecting whistle mouthpieces, not for kissing Ottery)...:
Jim
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Infectious flutes
Jim,
you can kiss Ottery all you want...I'm sure most of us won't mind.
Listermint, listerine, whisky, soap and water all work well for whistle heads. I wash my delrin seery with dishsoap from time to time when I notice "stuff" has adhered to the inside of my flute.
I think wooden flutes would be harder to clean without harming/drying the wood. Perhaps a bit of alcohol around the tone hole followed by a prompt oiling would do the trick.
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Jayhawk
Re: Infectious flutes
Eric, you mean you're not supposed to stick your tongue in the hole?
Maybe that's why I can never get a clear sound...
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Ottery
Re: Infectious flutes
Yes Eric, they evolve by passing plasmids (little circular bits of DNA) and bacterial viruses to each other, and antibiotic resistance genes is one group of plasmids that it makes sense to pass on - even between different bacterial species.
My guess is that when you breath in you also suck in air out of the flute, and that may contain some airborne spores.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
Apparently one of the reasons that the flute took a relatively long time to become accepted in the West of Ireland (don't know about the rest of the country) is that they were believed to carry TB.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Leftheris
Re: Infectious flutes
Maybe the explanation is a lot less arcane than all of this. Maybe you get a bug sitting at a session, where there's a whole crowd of people sitting close together. Maybe playing the flute is quite an exertion and your body becomes immunocompromised, plus, if you drink, alcohol acts to immunocompromise also.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
Ottery - what goes on between a flautist and their consenting flute is none of my business!
Rab - since the most constant airflow in the flute is out, and because it's continually being gently washed by moisture from our breath that nicely runs down onto agressive bodhran players, do you really think there is much chance of spores taking hold and later floating back up? Then, add on the normal swabbing of a flute and oiling...I still think it seems remarkably unlikely we're going to get anything from our flutes (I do think it's possible, but so is the chance I'll fall down my stairs at home today and die...which might make a lot of folks happy, but I'm too cantankerous to appease THOSE people).
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Jayhawk
Oh, we're cross posting Rab, I think your second theory is highly likely, except everyone knows Guiness is good for your constitution...I mean, they can't be lying to us in those commercials, can they?
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Jayhawk
Re: Infectious flutes
Yeah I suppose statistically you're more likely to get a cold (leading to a bacterial infection) off another human than a flute. Especially if a new person turns up at the session whose bugs you haven't acquired resistance to yet.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
I'd think that bacteria could survive quite well in a wooden flute - it'll be nicely lined with all sorts of stuff out of your lungs, and it should be permanently humid - ideal conditions for bacteria to survive. Whether or not you'd keep re-infecting yourself, I don't know - surely you'd become immune to that strain, eventually? Let's hope!
The only way I can think of disinfecting it would be with UV light, though I'm not sure where you'd go to do that nor whether it could damage the flute by drying it. Anyone have any idea?
On a related matter, I've started cleaning the (plastic) head of my tin whistles with alcohol, because I kept getting spots on my chin at the place where it rests! The problem is that bacteria can proliferate wildly once out of reach of all the agents of defence that keep them under control when they're on your own skin. It is possible to re-infect yourself this way. My brother once got blood poisoning by putting on a jacket that had some dried blood inside the sleeve, from an accident he'd had about a week previously. Bacteria must have proliferated in the not-quite-dried blood, and got into the wound - he was lucky not to lose the arm. Not, like, trying to scare you or nuttin'!
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Nell
Re: Infectious flutes
Thanks for all the input, I was imagining that I was inhaling spores or bugs while playing, but as you say Eric, we should expect this to be common among woodwind players. I get the impression it isn't. I don't know why the bugs I'm getting don't respond well to antibiotics. According to culture and sensitivity tests treatment should be straight forward. That's why I had the notion of being reinfected when playing.
Not sure if the freezer would help Cath, bacteria and spores can survive sub zero temperatures. But I will be more careful with cleaning, swabbing with whiskey + oiling seems a good idea
Session immunocompression? What an excellent idea! Could we get funding to study this in more depth? I can see the paper now: ' Sessionally Transmitted Diseases exacerbated by alcohol induced immunocompression'. We do, by the way, have a regular who attends come what may, coughing and sneezing over everyone.
Anyway, thanks again for the input. I'm not really disabled by this, it's more of a nuisance than being ill. I'm just fishing for an explanation other than "you're getting old and decrepid, expect more of this from now on" :-|
Martin
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
Oh, by the way guys, let's not get into any more discussions about probing tongues into the various orifices of our beloved instruments
Martin
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
Hydrogen peroxide is an effective bugicide (sic!). Hospitals are even now exploring the possibilities of eliminating MRSA using air-borne H2O2.
Trevor
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Infectious flutes
Martin - I'm glad it's not disabling, but anything that keeps you away from playing, like respiratory infections do, is a drag.
I hope you're feeling better soon. One important thing about cleaning with whiskey is you need to "test" it to make sure it's good enough to clean your beloved flute...and sometimes you need to test it before and after cleaning the flute!
Eric
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Jayhawk
Re: Infectious flutes
Teshting, teshting ... hey I feelsh fine now hic!
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
Don't know about infectious, but I certainly try and avoid smokey sessions these days, all that passive smoking, not good for me.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by curlew
Re: Infectious flutes
I hope that was a joke Trevor! You know of course H2O2 will bleach the flute, and I'm sure it wouldn't do the timber - or the timbre - any good.
# Posted on December 1st 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
Hmmm. Alcohol depresses the immune system? But it also kills germs, and the higher the octane level the lower the germ survivor count. SO this would imply that sessioneers need to get the pub to provide free whisky instead of free beer.
Worth a try, anyway. ;)
A friend of mine who's prone to chest colds always cures them by the following method:
1) run thehottest bath you can tolerate.
2) immerse yourself in the bath, carrying a pint bottle of whisky (which you must be careful to keep above the water).
3) drink the entire pint as fast as you can.
4) call your wife in to haul you out, dry you off, and tuck you into bed.
5) sleep for 24 hours.
Disclaimer: this is provided not as a health care recommendation but as a testimony to the germicidal effects of alcohol.
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by sara g
Re: Infectious flutes
Martin, I'm not buying the Flute as Germ Reservoir idea, as I think that 20+ years of flute playing has made me healthier than I would have been otherwise. (Unless it's all due to quitting smoking, which would leave me out on a limb...)
But I think you could disinfect your flute once or twice a year without harming it. I'd use peroxide or a weak bleach solution (not so good on silver keywork) without hesitation. I've also used 99% isopropyl to remove the oil before gluing cracks on a couple of flutes, and it didn't discolour the wood.
I don't see how regular flute-playing, drinking in moderation, and avoiding second-hand (and first-hand) smoke would do you anything but good in the long run. Plus I'd be willing to bet that the all fun you have at a session is good for the old immune system.
On the other hand, I've read that one serious chest or bronchial infection can predispose you to more. One would hope that your risk of re-infection would decrease with time and, of course, clean living. If you're susceptible, an annual flu shot might be in order.
Good luck!
Greg (not a real doctor)
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Infectious flutes
Sounds like just good fun! I might try that...do I have to wait till I get a cold, though?
But seriously, alcohol will supress your T-cell and B-cell response in the same way it slows down nerve impulse transmission. It has a generalised effect on cell membrane fluidity. That's the main reason I use it on a regular basis ;¬?
Good point about smokey sessions, Dougie, roll on...em... whenever it is...2005? 6?
I reckon most of it's down to people. Maybe sh!te collected inside the flute doesn't help (it'd be fun to plate out [ie on agar plates - to grow up different strains of bacteria] some gunk extracted from some 19th century flutes - hell, we might even find some _Mycobacterium tuberculosis_!), but people are much bigger reservoirs of fresh pathogens. Just one sneeze might be all it needs. Remember, there are over 200 different virus species which will produce the symptoms of the Common Cold - and the Flu virus (much rarer than people give it credit - if you've ever had real flu, you know all about it - you literally feel nearly dead - like the worst hangover you've ever had plus you're too weak to move) has special features in its genome which enables it, as it recombines, to continue to change its expression of surface-coat proteins.
We recently had an open day at the place where I work. I gave 8 X 20 minute talks to a total of 140+ members of the public. These people were at very close range, as I was showing off a fancy high-tech microscope which I "drive" to groups of 10ish in a confined space.
I was hoarse by the end of it, but the overuse of the gab had weakened it so I got a sore throat, which then became a general cold and chest infection. All of that lost me maybe 100miles of running. But I reckon I got this thing from being exposed to a bunch of people, many from outside of London, who carried cold viruses with a "regional accent" - slightly different DNA sequences, to which my immune system ahd no experience. Oops, and I forgot to mention the legendarily copious quantities of wine quaffed at the slap-up meal supplied to all the contributors after the open day....but that's not much different from the usual, so it must have the "different" people. That's my theory anyway!
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
I wouldn't put your flute anywhere *near* a freezer! Guaranteed to be very, very bad for it. The humidity in the wood will crystallise and expand, causing damage to the wood; everything else, and particularly the metal parts, will contract; no no no!!
Freezing is how to *preserve* a virus, not kill it; and most bacteria will survive quite happily too.
I don't know if respiratory germs can really thrive well enough outside the body, for a flute or anything else to be a threat, all this is speculation really. Like Danny says, the most dangerous repository for them is other people.
It would be fascinating, Danny, if you were to make some cultures from swabs from your flute! How about it, as an experiment? Might be somewhat shocking... By the way, you will definitely be breathing air from inside the flute - you don't hold it away from your face on the in-breath, do you? You breath with the embouchure hole right up against your mouth.
If anyone does want to de-bug an instrument, I still can't think of any better way than UV. It's used routinely for sterilising drinking water, and scientific/medical apparatus. I'm sure some form of unit is cheaply available into which you could place the sections of a flute.
Exposure to smoke could definitely prolong your infections, Conway. If it causes inflammation to your airways (which it is especially likely to do if you've had an infection, as they will be hyper-reactive) then it compromises your immune response. I have asthma and am prone to respiratory infections, so I hardly ever go to sessions any more, over here in the UK - roll on the changes, as Danny says! It's brutal but that's the way it is...
If your local sessions are very smoky, why not organise some tunes at your own place, if that's possible?
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Nell
Re: Infectious flutes
Hmmm... you've got me thinking, Nell. But where to publish? In a music journal or a Microbiology journal.
What about the Journal of Ethnomusicological Bacteriology?
BTW, I'm not sure UV would be kind to a wooden flute either!
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
'Journal of Ethnomusicological Bacteriology', haha!
You could also make a study of disease transmission among the Irish Music community. Events like the Willie Clancy Summer School, or any of the major festivals, bring people from every corner of the earth - they must be a great opportunity for exchanging new variants of bugs. There was a really horrid cough doing the rounds at WCSS this year...
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Nell
Re: Infectious flutes
Ps - what do you think UV might do to a flute?
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Nell
Re: Infectious flutes
Well, we know sunlight bleaches things, even treated wood. UV is even higher energy electromagnetic radiation, so my guess is it would weaken the chemical bonds in the wood structure. Maybe just occasional exposure would be ok. I'm just guessing, though.
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Infectious flutes
Ottery, what do you mean!!!!
As I'm married, yes, I have kissed someone, although at the moment my husband's growing a beard, so I'm not too crazy about kissing him.
Could a beard be an ideal place for bacteria to grow?
Should flute/whisle player have a beard?
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Cath
Re: Infectious flutes
How do you get the UV into all those dark recesses? Anyway, given that this does not seem to be a common problem, I'll just have to blame myself rather than the flute. Certainly the intimate, usually smokey atmosphere of a busy session might well not help. Sometimes we go round peoples houses, but it is good to get out on an evening. Ta for all the ideas again.
Oh, I did have a beard last summer, but shaved my bottom lip to accomodate the embouchure. The wife was not happy.
Martin
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
Hi Cath,
I mean't, why is it risky and disgusting to swap a flute with someone, but not to kiss them? (not that I'd want to kiss most flute players I know - particularly not the bearded ones)
I personally think that the more different bacteria etc you get exposed to, the more resistant you are.* We brought up our child (now 17) in an environment of absolutely unhygenic filth and squalor(!) and he literally NEVER had a day off school sick (This had the added advantage that we could take him out for skiing holidays, saying that he still had less absent days from school than other kids)
* Of course this wouldn't apply to plague, or ebola etc etc
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Ottery
Re: Infectious flutes
Yes... but Conway is trying to shift a recurring infection, isn't he, so I imagine the last thing he needs is lots of new bacteria that could make opportunistic use of his depleted state.
I think the 'more bacteria is good' school of thought has its merits, but it could be taken to extremes. You don't *really* want to live in an environment of filth where serious water-borne, effluent-transmitted diseases like cholera and dysentery can enjoy the benefits, do you? Respiratory infections are different, of course, but still - more isn't *always* better...
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Nell
Re: Infectious flutes
Oh right. I forgot I said that!
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Cath
Re: Infectious flutes
OT - Ottery: the viking graves were down on the machair not up on the moors. And being of the female persuasion I always felt that a bronze bustier was more flattering than a horned helmet
, Actually, in that climate we all wore fetching waterproof outfits by Helly Hansen, lots of woolly jumpers, wellies and watch caps....hardly the stuff of fantasy, alas.
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by KateG
Re: Infectious flutes
My "depleted state"! Hmph! Guess I better go for a top-up.
Martin
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
Kate, I'm wracked with disappointment...
Though I might just pull through if I keep focused on the bronze bustier
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Ottery
Re: Infectious flutes
Let me see if I understand all this:
Someone's flute became infected with haemophilius influenza during a summer camp after kissing Ottery who was wearing a bronze bustier at the time. I think there is a message in all of this.... ;o)
Maybe it's best if I stay busy at work....
# Posted on December 2nd 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Infectious flutes
Well it was a wild night. I have a glass of whiskey waiting to disinfect the head joint. But it's going to have to wait, a long time...
And if the bugs have survived the 3 mile cycle there on a frosty night, the black stuff, the smoke, the craic, and the the 5 mile cycle back (!) then good luck to them.
Martin
# Posted on December 3rd 2004 by Conway
Re: Infectious flutes
i would never freeze a flute, thats all i can say!
and also, you are going to probably have to start eating healthy, cut out sugar and beer and bread and milk for a while, because these are all things that can weaken the immune system and create mucus (milk is good for you, but makes mucus, and mucus doesnt seem like what you need with chest infections).
i mean, we all hate to do it, and i know myself dont, but... if i was having that serious of problems i would stop eating crap and only eat good food, because the medicine cant work if your body is too unhealthy to use it.
# Posted on December 5th 2004 by daiv