I had always learned to play Drowsy Maggie (& a few other reels like Maids of Mitchellstown) by not repeating the A or B parts, just straight through A-B-A-B. However, I'm hearing variations on different recordings, & wondering what's de rigeur for a standard session? Are there (tacit) rules governing when to repeat which parts & when, ie for a specific dance? Like Chorus Jig (actually a reel) I've learned is a New England style reel, played AA-BB-CC-BB, or something, does the history of the tune itself or the players determine how the repeats are followed?
Any tips or links appreciated!
btw I've been reviewing the archives the past few days, this site is an *amazing* resource, my apologies if this q has been asked before.
I think your example of the Chorus Jig (truly a reel) is as good as any when talking about the "rules" for playing this music. There are no rules. These tunes are for people who do not keep their Crayolas inside the lines. "Who cares if it's in 4/4 time, I'm calling it a jig!"
That said, the tradition does hand down some more-or-less adhered to guidelines on certain tunes. In general, tunes are played AABB (and so on for tunes with more than two parts). Some tunes are more often played single: ABAB. Many of these are more repetitive in their melody line than usual, so the ABAB structure makes some sense there.
Bear in mind that we're talking about 8-bar parts here for most tunes, so AA would be 16 bars of the A part, and so on.
Technically, Drowsy Maggie is one of these single reels almost always played ABAB. But it sort of "sounds" AABB because you repeat each 4-bar part to get an 8-bar half. And certain tunes are widely played that way (or with their own pattern of parts), although in my experience this tends to be a regional phenomenon, so it might only add to the confusion if we were all to start posting how tunes are played in our area.
The key to surviving at a session is to recognize going in that *any* tune can be played in *any* sequence of parts. It's up to the players. Just because the whole world does it one way doesn't make it wrong for the fiddlers of Two Dot Montana to play it differently. So you sit in the cirlce with your ears open and your fingers ready to jump to the next part when everybody else does. That's why it never hurts to listen to an unfamilar session before trying to join in.
You also mentioned recordings. In my mind they're a two-edged sword. For those of us living far from the sessions of Boston, NYC, Ennis, and Dublin, recordings are often one of the best sources of "authentic" settings of tunes. But more and more musicians are feeling the pressure to put their own stamp on the music when they're in the studio, so there is a trend to get "creative" with the basic melody, sequence of parts, key selection, even time signature. Sometimes the sequnece of parts is dictated by the arrangement and how that tune slides into the next one in the set, chosen just for this recording. Sometimes this breathes new life into an old tune. Sometimes the tune was better left alone. Either way, it usually has little to do with what gets played at most sessions (untill you land at that session where all the fiddlers play Martin Hayes' settings in keys no D flutist can find). I've heard a few musicians crow that their version of a tune is authentic and traditional because they learned it off of so-and-so's cd, "and that's good enough for me." But it may not be "good enough" for the local session where nobody else plays the Morning Star in F maj.
I've heard Trip to Durrow played AABBCC, and AABBCAABBC, and AABB, and ABCABC, and at some point I've played it each of these ways just to go along with the flow.
All this is a long way of saying that local custom dictates how a given tune is played, and for some tunes, local custom is more or less consistent around the globe. But you just never know.... And so it helps to be adaptable, to learn some tunes in more than one key, to *listen* for when to change parts rather than assuming you'll be in sync with the crowd.
That last paragraph of Will's really was the important part in all that gustiness. *grin* (Just teasing Will, there.) Learn the way they do it at your local session first. *Then* start learning the different ways to play the tunes off recordings and such. (Another blow in the effort to get people to learn by ear from other players! Heh.)
If you were to start a tune at a session your new to & you play a tune ABAB & everyone else played it the other way AABBAABB. This is a good measure of how receptive & open the players are at that session. If they notice you play it ABAB & play it that way your probably in a session among giants. If they roll over you & play it how their used to - it would be a normal session. There are no steadfast global rules when it comes to settings, as others said keep your ears open. Espescially at a new session.
I know a couple people who have they're 'pet sets' of tunes, if you deviate from they're set you could be asking for a raised eyebrow. In my experience these people are usually pricks, just deal with it. Usually for some reason or another have huge clout with the session leader or the bar itself. Humility is a huge part of ITM, if a player better than me strolled in I'd offer my chair to them. If they played a tune a new way that I could figure out on the spot I play it their way, otherwise I'd sit & listen. Respect for for the old-timers, big names or local session staple folks is the key.
What I've said might sound scary, I don't mean it that way. Too often 'sessions' are over examined to the point of a sciance experiment. Just think of a session as being invited over someone's house for a party, just behave the same way you would at a small cocktail party. Nobody likes the the guy with the lampshade on his head, (usually me), but just meeting the people one on one, having nice conversations (real or musical) of mutual respect is what it's all about. The main difference is every player has been new to it at one point or another & they will remember their own unsureness of being new to a session & they will try to make you comfortable as possible.
hehe great comments as usual!!! The sticking point in my mind is that, well, since we're in the middle of nowhere, with a solid core of 3 beginning players in our local session (perhaps 5 with a bodhran & singer), a brief confab with the fiddler/co-session leader is how we shall arrive at the decision on how to play a tune a certain way, but since we're all sort of picking up tunes at the same rate, that doesn't seem to be very definitive. Originally from the mid-Atlantic, you're making me so jealous, remembering what stellar sessions we have back there & how I don't think I took advantage of them when I was living there.
That being said, as there aren't really other players to listen to (besides you fine folk), & the recordings can be misleading (ie Drowsy Maggie the Donegal version from Altan!), any other clues I should be looking for as to how the 'rest' of the world might be playing a given tune? Sounds like the repetitive nature of the phrases are one clue, & intuition also plays a central role.
So, ask around here, Emily. You can ask on the tune page, or save 'em up and ask them in one big foop on a thread. Between us all, we should be able to find a pretty good consensus on how tunes are played around the globe.
Brad, can we have a picture of you with a lampshade on your head for The Mighty Crack?
Ok sounds good, so Drowsy Maggie is a single reel, how about Maids of Mitchellstown? Any other session standards that leap to mind that are 'singles'? I'll save the rest for one big foop
Emily, you'll get a good idea just from looking at the tunes as they're written in the tune archives. 8 bars with a repeat sign means it's to be played AABB. Single reels, for example, will have 4 bars with a repeat sign or 8 bars with no repeat sign.
And think twice before you pin Altan's version of Drowsy Maggie as "misleading." Not in Donegal it isn't. They wonder why the rest of Ireland plays it "funny." Learn it both ways, and then you'll be ready to sit in with north or south.
Emily actually has the opportunity to to establish a regional style in the truest sense of the word. The isolation of her session is how all sessions were at one time with the occasional addition of a traveling player like John Doherty. These people had the tunes that were passed on firsthand, or self composed, played in the style that was most appealing to the locals within the range of they're abilities. The vast number of sources available to us SEEMS to present us with need to chose one or another style. Irish music sounds Irish from Cork to Donegal regardless of regional style. I feel the thing to concentrate on is playing the tunes that you know as well as possible and enjoying yourself in the process.
By the way, I've seen Brad with a lampshade on his head and you really don't want a picture of it.
Will, I much prefer the AABB form for most of the tunes, and I have a question about the repeat sign bars: who put them there in the first place? That is always my question. Whence this particular notated version? Somebody, somewhere, was the first to write it down. Does this mean that the First Mover (so to speak, i.e. the First Notater) was writing it just as they heard it somewhere? If so, where? etc etc And of course, somewhere along the line, in many cases, editors crept in there. Maybe they put in repeat bars, and maybe they took them out.
One thing about classical music that has always bugged me: there is a very strict way to do repeat bars in classical. That is, if you do, say a piece that has a D.C. al Fine. Meaning, first, play the piece all the way through, including the repeat bars. Then, go back to the beginning (D.C. means back to the top, or back to the head = cap: Dal Capo, in Italian) and replay the music but DO NOT repeat at the repeat bars. Play to the "fine" mark (finish). So where it has Fine written (pronounced FEE-nay, i.e. finish, in Italian) that's where the music ends.
In some classical forms,which are originally folk forms like scherzos, minuets, etc etc, this way of handling the repeat bars rings false with me.
What do other think, if you have experience with playing any classical music? Particularly from the Baroque period.
Sorry....I'm probably going too far afield here, but since the repeat bars were brought up, this seemed like a great place to bring up a bugaboo of mine!
While I agree with the generally held view that one should always try and adapt to the rules in any particular session there is a strong case for sticking to the "conventional" way of performing tunes wherever this is possible. For example have you listened to the Mountain Road with repeats (ie AABB)? To me this, one of the most exciting of session tunes when played ABAB, becomes repetitive and monotonous with the repeats. Similarly the Trip to Durrow played AABBCC is not a patch on the AABCBC version. Also the Sailor's Bonnet, whether as part of the Tarbolton set or the more recent Bothy Band Salamanca and Banshee set, has to be played ABBABB - I think it does make a difference!
Marian, It is always handy to keep in mind the fact that the notation and key structure is an overlay on a naturally arising phenomenon that was perfectly ok for a very long time without it. Accomplished guitarists sitting in their first session will often remark that they are at loss for chord choices and rhythms in what seems at first glance to very simple music. Basically the notation is an imperfect aid to memory not the primary determining factor that it is in formal Western music.
The point of this thread seems to how to determine if something is single, double or whatever kind of reel. If doubling up the parts make it repetive and boring, don't double up the parts. If one part is twice as long as another its probably a single reel with the only the short part doubled to even out tune. If the tune is attributed to a particular individual as the composer find out how he/she played and play it that way. If it is associated with or being used for a dance the structure should fit evenly into the figure of the dance. Overall it should sound right. I feel that if it requires any great mental effort to separate what feels right from the way it "ought" to be played, then the way it "ought" to be played is wrong.
I brought up the repeat signs mostly in reference to how tunes appear hear on The Session. I assume that most of us are posting the tunes as we play them ourselves. As such, this may represent some "convention" for playing the tune in your neighborhood, whether or not it fits the convention elsewhere. When it comes to printed collections of tunes, I'm always a little dubious of their accuracy until I hear the tune played by a credible trad musician.
And I'm not too comfortable with this notion of a "conventional" way to play any given tune. Maybe certain tunes have a more or less established setting (Sailor's Bonnet is widely played just like Coleman or the Bothy Band), but it's not the only setting that works. I prefer to take the approach of learning the most common settings, so I can play with a variety of people, and also tinkering with the tune to see what else comes out. It's a blend of knowing (from years of listening) what's going to fit well into the tradition, and also allowing personal taste to shape the setting (which is part of what keeps the music from being a dead moth pinned to a museum specimen board).
I'd hate to see something as fluid, creative, and intuitive as ITM be tied down to inflexible rules about how many times to play each part of a tune.
Well, let me pitch in here with perhaps a bit of negativism or at least a warning finger -- I think it's also necessary to remind people reading things here (and not necessarily pitching in, ahem, ahem) that when you're a beginner (or at least a beginner at ITM), it's not necessarily the right time to decide that the tune should be played THIS or THAT way (especially session standards) just because to your ear it "sounds better."
I'm not disagreeing with Will or AOG or whoever, just wanting to sound a note of caution.
Will, Brad, and, I would assume, AOG are all experienced players and have educated their ears through dint of years of effort. What sounds better to a player in their third year of playing might sound like bloody hell to a player in their thirtieth, so all beginners should be careful about "innovations" to tunes, especially session standards, as they really do tend to be played certain ways pretty much round the globe. "Innovations" tend to be accepted much more readily if the player who came up with them has paid some dues.
It's easy to think that a tune that's repetitive is boring if *you're* playing it and you don't play it particularly well. However, hearing Kevin Burke or Kevin Glackin, or Brendan Bulger, or John Doyle or any amount of great players play that same tune might make you want to hear the part repeated ten times at a time.
How can you figure out if your playing really is decent or if you're just in love with the sound of your own instrument? Yeeps, that's a whole 'nother subject.
I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, mind -- just wanting to make sure that we're not slamming up from one side to the other. I still think the best thing to do is to learn the session standards in as many settings as you can, and then innovate as you see fit once you've gotten some experience out in the wide session world of ITM.
Oh, and you asked after singles, Emily....okay, I'll start a list with a few that are generally played as singles.
Within a Mile of Dublin
The Abbey Reel
Toss the Feathers (Clare version)
Morning Star
(It might also be worth noting that, for some players who like to dice things up fine and particular like, a "single reel" is one that is more in 2/4 than 4/4 and is similar to a polka without the polka feel -- and might have parts repeated. I've noted that this happens more often in players who play for group dancers than those who play for the music or for stepdancers, as there are dances that call specifically for single reels. But of course you must keep in mind that notating the tunes is only something that recently started happening and that notation is sometimes stretched to the limits trying to deal with any folk form of music.)
I don't play Maids of Mitchellstown yet, so Will or somebody with more experience than I (hint hint) will have to answer that one for you, Emily.
Zina, just to emphasise the arbitrary nature of how tunes are played, I know a piper who insists on playing The Morning Star with each part repeated - probably the way he learnt it from a recording of another piper - whilst everyone else in the session is itching to move on to the next part. It still grates on me - it's the sort of reel that, to my ear, wants to be short and snappy - a 'tabloid' reel.
The point I guess at any stage is to listen to what your playing. The bulk of the common tunes don't vary that much from setting to setting and if they do then you have to decide which are worth learning. The only real way to do that is to listen carefully to the tune as you play it, which I have only recently realized is much different than hearing what you play. If the focus is on notes, bowing and structure there is very little attention left for active listening.
The definitive form of any tune will always remain somewhat elusive and most of us will adapt to the style of the sessions we frequent and change when we feel uncomfortable. The only bedrock common thread is to listen to what is being played and actively attempt to play it more accurately with the best possible tone production and a steady rhythm that is appropriate to the melody.
I don't mean to preach here, but I've heard too many discussions about the "right" way to play tunes that verge on low-rent religious warfare. My approach is to play as well as I can and try to gain enough control over my playing to allow me to adapt it when the need arises or at least be content with sitting back and hearing a new version.
Really excellent advice on all counts, & especially thank you Zina for the quick & dirty 'tabloid' reel list, hehe, I'm grateful for so many voices chiming in on what I thought was not a very interesting issue.
rules...?
rules...?
I had always learned to play Drowsy Maggie (& a few other reels like Maids of Mitchellstown) by not repeating the A or B parts, just straight through A-B-A-B. However, I'm hearing variations on different recordings, & wondering what's de rigeur for a standard session? Are there (tacit) rules governing when to repeat which parts & when, ie for a specific dance? Like Chorus Jig (actually a reel) I've learned is a New England style reel, played AA-BB-CC-BB, or something, does the history of the tune itself or the players determine how the repeats are followed?
Any tips or links appreciated!
btw I've been reviewing the archives the past few days, this site is an *amazing* resource, my apologies if this q has been asked before.
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: rules...?
I think your example of the Chorus Jig (truly a reel) is as good as any when talking about the "rules" for playing this music. There are no rules. These tunes are for people who do not keep their Crayolas inside the lines. "Who cares if it's in 4/4 time, I'm calling it a jig!"
That said, the tradition does hand down some more-or-less adhered to guidelines on certain tunes. In general, tunes are played AABB (and so on for tunes with more than two parts). Some tunes are more often played single: ABAB. Many of these are more repetitive in their melody line than usual, so the ABAB structure makes some sense there.
Bear in mind that we're talking about 8-bar parts here for most tunes, so AA would be 16 bars of the A part, and so on.
Technically, Drowsy Maggie is one of these single reels almost always played ABAB. But it sort of "sounds" AABB because you repeat each 4-bar part to get an 8-bar half. And certain tunes are widely played that way (or with their own pattern of parts), although in my experience this tends to be a regional phenomenon, so it might only add to the confusion if we were all to start posting how tunes are played in our area.
The key to surviving at a session is to recognize going in that *any* tune can be played in *any* sequence of parts. It's up to the players. Just because the whole world does it one way doesn't make it wrong for the fiddlers of Two Dot Montana to play it differently. So you sit in the cirlce with your ears open and your fingers ready to jump to the next part when everybody else does. That's why it never hurts to listen to an unfamilar session before trying to join in.
You also mentioned recordings. In my mind they're a two-edged sword. For those of us living far from the sessions of Boston, NYC, Ennis, and Dublin, recordings are often one of the best sources of "authentic" settings of tunes. But more and more musicians are feeling the pressure to put their own stamp on the music when they're in the studio, so there is a trend to get "creative" with the basic melody, sequence of parts, key selection, even time signature. Sometimes the sequnece of parts is dictated by the arrangement and how that tune slides into the next one in the set, chosen just for this recording. Sometimes this breathes new life into an old tune. Sometimes the tune was better left alone. Either way, it usually has little to do with what gets played at most sessions (untill you land at that session where all the fiddlers play Martin Hayes' settings in keys no D flutist can find). I've heard a few musicians crow that their version of a tune is authentic and traditional because they learned it off of so-and-so's cd, "and that's good enough for me." But it may not be "good enough" for the local session where nobody else plays the Morning Star in F maj.
I've heard Trip to Durrow played AABBCC, and AABBCAABBC, and AABB, and ABCABC, and at some point I've played it each of these ways just to go along with the flow.
All this is a long way of saying that local custom dictates how a given tune is played, and for some tunes, local custom is more or less consistent around the globe. But you just never know.... And so it helps to be adaptable, to learn some tunes in more than one key, to *listen* for when to change parts rather than assuming you'll be in sync with the crowd.
Hope this helps
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: rules...?
That last paragraph of Will's really was the important part in all that gustiness. *grin* (Just teasing Will, there.) Learn the way they do it at your local session first. *Then* start learning the different ways to play the tunes off recordings and such. (Another blow in the effort to get people to learn by ear from other players! Heh.)
Zina
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: rules...?
Just learn the tune and see what they play at the session - be ready to adapt though!
There is no right and wrong way - it all depends where you're playing and who leads that tune.. Eventually, everyone falls into place!
Siān
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by sianfiddle
Trying to find a tune
It's a Shetland tune called 'McArthur Park'?? can anyone help?
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by sianfiddle
Re: rules...?
If you were to start a tune at a session your new to & you play a tune ABAB & everyone else played it the other way AABBAABB. This is a good measure of how receptive & open the players are at that session. If they notice you play it ABAB & play it that way your probably in a session among giants. If they roll over you & play it how their used to - it would be a normal session. There are no steadfast global rules when it comes to settings, as others said keep your ears open. Espescially at a new session.
I know a couple people who have they're 'pet sets' of tunes, if you deviate from they're set you could be asking for a raised eyebrow. In my experience these people are usually pricks, just deal with it. Usually for some reason or another have huge clout with the session leader or the bar itself. Humility is a huge part of ITM, if a player better than me strolled in I'd offer my chair to them. If they played a tune a new way that I could figure out on the spot I play it their way, otherwise I'd sit & listen. Respect for for the old-timers, big names or local session staple folks is the key.
What I've said might sound scary, I don't mean it that way. Too often 'sessions' are over examined to the point of a sciance experiment. Just think of a session as being invited over someone's house for a party, just behave the same way you would at a small cocktail party. Nobody likes the the guy with the lampshade on his head, (usually me), but just meeting the people one on one, having nice conversations (real or musical) of mutual respect is what it's all about. The main difference is every player has been new to it at one point or another & they will remember their own unsureness of being new to a session & they will try to make you comfortable as possible.
Speak softly & carry a big tunestock
Have fun & god bless
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by Brad Maloney
Re: rules...?
hehe great comments as usual!!! The sticking point in my mind is that, well, since we're in the middle of nowhere, with a solid core of 3 beginning players in our local session (perhaps 5 with a bodhran & singer), a brief confab with the fiddler/co-session leader is how we shall arrive at the decision on how to play a tune a certain way, but since we're all sort of picking up tunes at the same rate, that doesn't seem to be very definitive. Originally from the mid-Atlantic, you're making me so jealous, remembering what stellar sessions we have back there & how I don't think I took advantage of them when I was living there.
That being said, as there aren't really other players to listen to (besides you fine folk), & the recordings can be misleading (ie Drowsy Maggie the Donegal version from Altan!), any other clues I should be looking for as to how the 'rest' of the world might be playing a given tune? Sounds like the repetitive nature of the phrases are one clue, & intuition also plays a central role.
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: rules...?
So, ask around here, Emily. You can ask on the tune page, or save 'em up and ask them in one big foop on a thread. Between us all, we should be able to find a pretty good consensus on how tunes are played around the globe.
Brad, can we have a picture of you with a lampshade on your head for The Mighty Crack?
Zina
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: rules...?
Ok sounds good, so Drowsy Maggie is a single reel, how about Maids of Mitchellstown? Any other session standards that leap to mind that are 'singles'? I'll save the rest for one big foop
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: rules...?
Emily, you'll get a good idea just from looking at the tunes as they're written in the tune archives. 8 bars with a repeat sign means it's to be played AABB. Single reels, for example, will have 4 bars with a repeat sign or 8 bars with no repeat sign.
And think twice before you pin Altan's version of Drowsy Maggie as "misleading." Not in Donegal it isn't. They wonder why the rest of Ireland plays it "funny." Learn it both ways, and then you'll be ready to sit in with north or south.
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: rules...?
Indeed, I'm trying. Thanks for the help! I'll keep my ears & eyes open.
# Posted on April 27th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: rules...?
Emily actually has the opportunity to to establish a regional style in the truest sense of the word. The isolation of her session is how all sessions were at one time with the occasional addition of a traveling player like John Doherty. These people had the tunes that were passed on firsthand, or self composed, played in the style that was most appealing to the locals within the range of they're abilities. The vast number of sources available to us SEEMS to present us with need to chose one or another style. Irish music sounds Irish from Cork to Donegal regardless of regional style. I feel the thing to concentrate on is playing the tunes that you know as well as possible and enjoying yourself in the process.
By the way, I've seen Brad with a lampshade on his head and you really don't want a picture of it.
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by AOG
Re: rules...?
You mean Brad actually looks better without a lampshade? *grin*
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: rules...?
Will, I much prefer the AABB form for most of the tunes, and I have a question about the repeat sign bars: who put them there in the first place? That is always my question. Whence this particular notated version? Somebody, somewhere, was the first to write it down. Does this mean that the First Mover (so to speak, i.e. the First Notater) was writing it just as they heard it somewhere? If so, where? etc etc And of course, somewhere along the line, in many cases, editors crept in there. Maybe they put in repeat bars, and maybe they took them out.
One thing about classical music that has always bugged me: there is a very strict way to do repeat bars in classical. That is, if you do, say a piece that has a D.C. al Fine. Meaning, first, play the piece all the way through, including the repeat bars. Then, go back to the beginning (D.C. means back to the top, or back to the head = cap: Dal Capo, in Italian) and replay the music but DO NOT repeat at the repeat bars. Play to the "fine" mark (finish). So where it has Fine written (pronounced FEE-nay, i.e. finish, in Italian) that's where the music ends.
In some classical forms,which are originally folk forms like scherzos, minuets, etc etc, this way of handling the repeat bars rings false with me.
What do other think, if you have experience with playing any classical music? Particularly from the Baroque period.
Sorry....I'm probably going too far afield here, but since the repeat bars were brought up, this seemed like a great place to bring up a bugaboo of mine!
Marian
Marian
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by Marian63
Re: rules...?
While I agree with the generally held view that one should always try and adapt to the rules in any particular session there is a strong case for sticking to the "conventional" way of performing tunes wherever this is possible. For example have you listened to the Mountain Road with repeats (ie AABB)? To me this, one of the most exciting of session tunes when played ABAB, becomes repetitive and monotonous with the repeats. Similarly the Trip to Durrow played AABBCC is not a patch on the AABCBC version. Also the Sailor's Bonnet, whether as part of the Tarbolton set or the more recent Bothy Band Salamanca and Banshee set, has to be played ABBABB - I think it does make a difference!
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by Bannerman
Re: rules...?
Marian, It is always handy to keep in mind the fact that the notation and key structure is an overlay on a naturally arising phenomenon that was perfectly ok for a very long time without it. Accomplished guitarists sitting in their first session will often remark that they are at loss for chord choices and rhythms in what seems at first glance to very simple music. Basically the notation is an imperfect aid to memory not the primary determining factor that it is in formal Western music.
The point of this thread seems to how to determine if something is single, double or whatever kind of reel. If doubling up the parts make it repetive and boring, don't double up the parts. If one part is twice as long as another its probably a single reel with the only the short part doubled to even out tune. If the tune is attributed to a particular individual as the composer find out how he/she played and play it that way. If it is associated with or being used for a dance the structure should fit evenly into the figure of the dance. Overall it should sound right. I feel that if it requires any great mental effort to separate what feels right from the way it "ought" to be played, then the way it "ought" to be played is wrong.
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by AOG
Re: rules...?
I brought up the repeat signs mostly in reference to how tunes appear hear on The Session. I assume that most of us are posting the tunes as we play them ourselves. As such, this may represent some "convention" for playing the tune in your neighborhood, whether or not it fits the convention elsewhere. When it comes to printed collections of tunes, I'm always a little dubious of their accuracy until I hear the tune played by a credible trad musician.
And I'm not too comfortable with this notion of a "conventional" way to play any given tune. Maybe certain tunes have a more or less established setting (Sailor's Bonnet is widely played just like Coleman or the Bothy Band), but it's not the only setting that works. I prefer to take the approach of learning the most common settings, so I can play with a variety of people, and also tinkering with the tune to see what else comes out. It's a blend of knowing (from years of listening) what's going to fit well into the tradition, and also allowing personal taste to shape the setting (which is part of what keeps the music from being a dead moth pinned to a museum specimen board).
I'd hate to see something as fluid, creative, and intuitive as ITM be tied down to inflexible rules about how many times to play each part of a tune.
# Posted on April 28th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: rules...?
Well, let me pitch in here with perhaps a bit of negativism or at least a warning finger -- I think it's also necessary to remind people reading things here (and not necessarily pitching in, ahem, ahem) that when you're a beginner (or at least a beginner at ITM), it's not necessarily the right time to decide that the tune should be played THIS or THAT way (especially session standards) just because to your ear it "sounds better."
I'm not disagreeing with Will or AOG or whoever, just wanting to sound a note of caution.
Will, Brad, and, I would assume, AOG are all experienced players and have educated their ears through dint of years of effort. What sounds better to a player in their third year of playing might sound like bloody hell to a player in their thirtieth, so all beginners should be careful about "innovations" to tunes, especially session standards, as they really do tend to be played certain ways pretty much round the globe. "Innovations" tend to be accepted much more readily if the player who came up with them has paid some dues.
It's easy to think that a tune that's repetitive is boring if *you're* playing it and you don't play it particularly well. However, hearing Kevin Burke or Kevin Glackin, or Brendan Bulger, or John Doyle or any amount of great players play that same tune might make you want to hear the part repeated ten times at a time.
How can you figure out if your playing really is decent or if you're just in love with the sound of your own instrument? Yeeps, that's a whole 'nother subject.
I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, mind -- just wanting to make sure that we're not slamming up from one side to the other. I still think the best thing to do is to learn the session standards in as many settings as you can, and then innovate as you see fit once you've gotten some experience out in the wide session world of ITM.
Zina
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
List of Singles for Emily
Oh, and you asked after singles, Emily....okay, I'll start a list with a few that are generally played as singles.
Within a Mile of Dublin
The Abbey Reel
Toss the Feathers (Clare version)
Morning Star
(It might also be worth noting that, for some players who like to dice things up fine and particular like, a "single reel" is one that is more in 2/4 than 4/4 and is similar to a polka without the polka feel -- and might have parts repeated. I've noted that this happens more often in players who play for group dancers than those who play for the music or for stepdancers, as there are dances that call specifically for single reels. But of course you must keep in mind that notating the tunes is only something that recently started happening and that notation is sometimes stretched to the limits trying to deal with any folk form of music.)
I don't play Maids of Mitchellstown yet, so Will or somebody with more experience than I (hint hint) will have to answer that one for you, Emily.
Zina
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: rules...?
Zina, just to emphasise the arbitrary nature of how tunes are played, I know a piper who insists on playing The Morning Star with each part repeated - probably the way he learnt it from a recording of another piper - whilst everyone else in the session is itching to move on to the next part. It still grates on me - it's the sort of reel that, to my ear, wants to be short and snappy - a 'tabloid' reel.
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: rules...?
Sort of proves the point, don't it?
Zina
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: rules...?
The point I guess at any stage is to listen to what your playing. The bulk of the common tunes don't vary that much from setting to setting and if they do then you have to decide which are worth learning. The only real way to do that is to listen carefully to the tune as you play it, which I have only recently realized is much different than hearing what you play. If the focus is on notes, bowing and structure there is very little attention left for active listening.
The definitive form of any tune will always remain somewhat elusive and most of us will adapt to the style of the sessions we frequent and change when we feel uncomfortable. The only bedrock common thread is to listen to what is being played and actively attempt to play it more accurately with the best possible tone production and a steady rhythm that is appropriate to the melody.
I don't mean to preach here, but I've heard too many discussions about the "right" way to play tunes that verge on low-rent religious warfare. My approach is to play as well as I can and try to gain enough control over my playing to allow me to adapt it when the need arises or at least be content with sitting back and hearing a new version.
AO
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by AOG
Re: rules...?
Really excellent advice on all counts, & especially thank you Zina for the quick & dirty 'tabloid' reel list, hehe, I'm grateful for so many voices chiming in on what I thought was not a very interesting issue.
# Posted on April 29th 2002 by emily_bmore