Have you ever notice how there seems to be shortage of good bodhran player around? This was a question I put forward to my friend last week at a session. His reply was " yes your correct for all the bodhran players I see in a months playing I could see only one good player in a blue moon".
I've found this also in my personnal view it's a common occurance right through the trad nations. Take this for example a young person goes out for there first session with their new bodhran which they put in alot of time playing for this night. A. the person know the other players or B. the person meet's them for the first time. A. is more lightly to get support in playing where B. could get left out of the session? This could prevent somebody moving on with there playing or not.
Or the lack of bodhran players could just be to lack of people playing? What do the other people at The Session think could cause the lack of bodhran masters and masterness?
Oh god...celtichippy, I hope you've a thick skin.... ;) Be nice, Michael Gill.
Yes, of course it's true that if you know someone at a session, it's easier to be a part of it. That's true regardless of what instrument you play at all or what level you play at.
Well the problem has been discussed a lot of times. I think the the most obvious reason for the existence of bad bodhran players is, that the difficulty of playing this instrument properly is mainly underrated. It seems so easy to play, but obviously it is not. A lot of people seem to think, that because the get a sound out of a drum, they can play it. A lot of times people pick up a bodhran because they want to be part of a session or so. Because their musical abilities are limited or it takes too long to learn other instruments they start playing the Bodhran. Not only that they cannot play, the bad players even have the worst instruments. They mostly bought it in a tourist shop four a few pounds. Good players play better instruments which even multiplies the difference between good and bad players.
But we can discuss this matter as often as we want. The problem will not be solved.
Quote from my [excellent] drummer friend - "Why do they [bodhrani] play so many beats along with the notes of the tunes? It's punchy for the first 30 seconds, then it's just so many extra notes".....he's got a good point. Maybe think of playing the type of rhythm on the bodhran that only a drummer can play...I think I'm trying to say 'stop being so busy'. It's hard to describe it. But I think you all know what I mean. The good ones can do it.
Having said all that, there are a few players who turn up to my session regularly, play too busily (in my opinion), but keep the volume down....sort of 'conspicuous by absence'. No complaints there.
Just back from playing bodhrán in my fortnightly regular session. As always, felt challenged by the regular crowd who can be really good and they were tonight. They've been thinking about things and have been learning new sets of tunes (this is a session that's been going for a long time - twenty years?). To fit in with the new tunes, I had to improvise as usual. I was listening to the new tunes and tried not to just bang along with too many beats.
In the past at one significant stage of my learning I was playing with a flute player and tried to vary my beating to fit in with how he had to take a breath every now and then. So I don't just motor along regardless but "pause for a breath" every now and then when it fits in for a beat. It helps me follow the shape of the tune, gives my muscles a moment of relaxation so I don't get tired and lose the plot, and helps me to make sure I'm following the tempo and not rushing it.
I've had a lot of support and encouragement from the other melody players over the years. There were some negative comments from some in the early days, but I tried to take on board what they were telling me.
But every session I play in (regular one or others) is a challenge and I have to keep my ears open. I know the melody players put a lot of work in to keep things fresh. I try to respond to what they're doing.
Not all bodhrán learners have this encouragement, I suppose. And I'm sure some "drummers" just want to join in but don't really have a clue about how the music goes.
Like playing the blues (my other musical background on electric guitar), the space between the notes is as expressive as the notes you play.
The bodhrán looks like an easy option as an instrument. It isn't. This might be why there are a lot of people who have a go but haven't a clue, really.
Don't know if this answers your question (why are there so few good bodhrán players around?)
The answer to this question is blindingly straightforward.
For starters, out of all the "instruments" you might hear in a session, the bodhran is by far the easiest to play. Now don't all get shirty and whinge on about it being harder than it looks, so what if it is harder than it looks, it's still easy peasy. And even that is compared to diddley music being easy peasy music in the first place.
So if it's that easy, why are there so few good players? It's because any body with any degree of inteligence and/or understanding of this music who tries playing the damned thing soon realises that playing tunes is more rewarding.
Ah, now this is where I think you're wrong, Mr Gill. Playing a bodhran well, as opposed to just bashing away without any empathy for what the melody players are doing, is extremely rewarding. But as other people here have suggested, it's actually very difficult to play one well. And the practice required to get to the stage of playing well is probably not as rewarding as practising a melody instrument (and you've got to have very understanding - or deaf - neighbours): the relentless thump-thump of solo bodhran could drive a man insane, but it's the only way to start drawing out the subtle nuances within the drum. Whereas if you're a melody player, at least you've got the instant appeal of a recognisable tune emerging from your instrument while you're practising.
I think you hear the results of your practice much quicker on melody instruments - which might explain why, as you say, 'anybody with any degree of intelligence and/or understanding of this music' might feel better playing a melodic instrument. It's also the case that those people soon find out how much stick the bodhran player has to put up with, and switch to another instrument for the sake of a quiet life . . .
Sorry, I'm a bass player by profession, and the bass in rock, pop and jazz occupies much the same position in these arenas as the bodhran does in ITM - the easiest instrument in the world to get a note out of, to the extent that basically anyone can claim to 'play' bass and bluff their way through a simple rock song, but in truth very difficult to really play well. So this is a daily battle for me. I'm just a glutton for punishment.
Ah come off it. It's not rocket science. Are you really saying that people turn to melody playing instruments because it's a quick fix over playing the bodhran well? I'm sure there will be many a budding fiddle player's flat mate who will take umbridge with this, but that's not the point.
You may well find playing your bodhran well extreemly rewarding, but what I'm trying to get through to you is that there are greater rewards to be found in playing the tunes. All the subtlety you can find in your percussion you can find in the tunes, plus a whole gammut more. That's one of the wonders of diddley music. These tunes are very percussive things, they reek of the subtleties of rythmn.
You play rock bass. Great, a vital thing to to sound of that music, It has evolved a space in the music that only it can occupy. Not so with the bodhran in diddley, anything you do on that is meerly reproducing what is already being done in the tune.
the bodhran may well be the easiest to play, Mr Gill (hence a large number of poor/average players), but is it the easiest to play well? as in every instrument, there are a wide range of standards. what i think gives bodhran a bad name are those new players, that think by bashing a loud 1,2,3,4 rhythm in a session- they are percussive geniuses.
and isn't the reward of the playing, similar to 'beauty in the eye of the beholder'- if a player wants the rewards of percussivve rythms of a bodhran, over diddling on a fiddle, by all means let him
Well, I'd have to begin by saying that what I understand as good bodhran playing does not simply consist of 'reproducing what is already being done in the tune' - a great bodhran player, to my ears, is someone who can complement and highlight what is happening in the melody . . .
But more importantly, isn't the texture of sounds, the 'orchestration' of a session, if you like, an important element, too? It isn't so much what you can do with the instrument as the actual sound it makes that draws me to it. There's no other instrument that can create those haunting rumbles, percussive pops and ringing rimshots. While you rightly (and rather poetically, I might add!) state that the tunes 'reek of the subtleties of rhythm', the same can be said of melodies by Bach or Mozart or Grieg, among many others. And yet these composers still saw fit to bring in other instruments to bring out those subtleties, using the differing timbres and tonalities of the orchestral instruments and percussion to create a full, textured sound.
I love the sound of the unaccompanied fiddle and flute (for example) as much as the next man, but sometimes, when the bodhran, guitar and (God forbid!) spoons kick in with their thumping bass notes, chiming mids and rattling high tones, the whole thing seems to lift off to a new level. It's like comparing a black and white sketch with a vibrant oil painting.
Oooh, that "reward in the playing is in the eye of the boholder" really gets my goat (so to speak) because it's so symptomatic of why I complain so. Do you not see how selfish that is? "If some one wants to play the bodhran over the fiddle, let him."?? Why do you not get it that contributing is the thing, not pleasing your self?
Kidcharlamagne's response is more intelligent. And yes I agree (shock horror) that timbre/orchestration can be an important element and that a well played bodhran can sound pretty good. But we're not talking Bach here, where the counterpoint is part of it. You think Bach wrote tunes and then accompanied them with counterpoint? The whole thing is integral, like the great bass line is to a classic Zepelin track.
Do you really think that the crackilng sound of terrific pipes flute and fiddle is a monochrome thing that shouts to be coloured in?
well- im not trying to be intelligent to the point of giving everyone something to lampoon me on, like last time.
last time i went to a session, everyone (even the bodhran players) were there to contribute. im sure if they wanted to please themselves, theyd be stuck at home bashing the goatskin.
the 'beauty in the eye of the beholder comment' only arises from individuals preferences (im sure theres a reference in the "feel of an instrument" discussion)- not everyone is suited to the fiddle/pipes/bodhran etc, and its up to them what they choose to play. i agree- there are times when a well-placed bodhran can add to the texture(if played right and sympathetically to the music),but there are times when it spoils the consistency.
and in reference to your question- no- if the pipes/flute/fiddle can keep a dynamic in the tune, that would only be hindered by extra instruments. but for as many times as this happens, there are also the times when a good beat to the music lifts the players, and the session.
Just to back up Aaron with his 'eye of the beholder' thing, I think that the essence of what he means is not that bodhran players just play for themselves but that certain individuals are simply drawn to different instruments, for whatever reasons. And it just happens that some people like the sound of the bodhran and want to make that sound, while others prefer the fiddle or the pipes or the banjo . . . For example, I play the guitar and can pick my way through a decent selection of tunes, but while I love a good rock guitar or a bit of solo classical guitar, I happen to think that the guitar sounds a bit weak as a melody instrument in diddley (at least the way I play guitar!), and I just love the percussive thump of a bodhran in a diddley setting. Which is the simple reason why I choose to play bodhran in any sessions I go to.
By the way, I'm sorry, I had no intent to imply that unaccompanied fiddle/flute/pipes might need 'colouring in' - in most cases, a black and white sketch can still be considered a complete work of art - I find many of da Vinci's pencil sketches much more aesthetically pleasing and somehow more evocative than some of his painted works. Both are valid art forms which can stand on their own merits - I'm not suggesting that one is any less complete than the other. Some people just have a natural preference for one type of art over another.
Anyway, as in any discussion between Mr Gill and a bodhran player on this site, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I suppose it might be something of an achievement to have got him to type the words 'a well played bodhran can sound pretty good'. But in any case, I think I understand a little better the reasons behind Michael's objections to the bodhran now, and each to his own - I can respect his reasoning - this little discussion has been a lot more edifying than the relentless 'drip drip' and what seemed like unwarranted antagonism of some of his earlier posts!
Actually, in fairness, it's the individuals who decide that this "instrument" (I wince everytime I use that word) deserves the focus of their attention that I'm attacking.
kidcharlemange says the simple reason why he chose the bodhran was because he likes the sound of it. And I agree that it can sound pretty good (though it rarely does, which is a separate but related argument). But the simple point you bashers refuse to admit is the music is about the tunes and I simply refuse to agree to disagree. You play an instrument because you like the sound of it, and therefor sideline yourselves for ever to the perifery. Don't get me wrong, this vitriol is not to intended to drive you from the sidelines, quite the reverse. It's intended to get you properly involved.
I don't fully disaggree with you, but you can't have failed to notice that your drip driping has actually managed to convince at least one poster to change their mind about taking up a melody instrument.
Heh, you don't have to agree to disagree - no matter how much you refuse to agree to disagree, you just disagree, which is the same thing in the end . . .
Putting linguistics to one side, I don't honestly think any of us goatbashers, those of us who are really serious about the music and care about our role in it, have refused to admit that the music is about the tunes. We know it's about the tunes! We're under no illusion that all we're doing is (we hope! If we're decent enough players) gilding the lily. The music's beautiful without us, but in some cases, it can be even better with some tasteful, well-played percussion. And I think I'm not alone in saying that we bodhran players don't feel sidelined - we feel as involved as anybody in our sessions. We're listening when somebody suggests a tune so that we're ready with a suitable accompaniment; we're listening for the change from the A part to the B part, ready to modify our playing accordingly; we're listening so that we're ready as the first tune segues into the next; we throw in the odd rhythmic embellishment . . . Tell me all that's not being involved. Heck, about the only thing we can't do is start off a set. And the melody players at my session are always happy to listen to anyone's tune suggestions, even those of a percussionist . . . There are enough guys up there all playing the melody anyway - at a busy session, if one fiddle drops out for a coupla verses, it makes very little difference to the sound - there are another two and a coupla flutes still playing the tune - but if yer bodhran man stops, or changes his accents, the whole feel of the tune can change. So I feel pretty involved. Maybe I'm just lucky that my fellow players also consider me 'involved' - I'll admit that at one or two sessions I've come across the odd leader who will blank the percussionist as he discusses keys and tune suggestions with the other melodicists . . . And even that didn't make me feel 'not involved', just a bit undervalued, maybe . . .
I like the fact that you care about us, that you want us to be involved. But please, don't worry about us - we're happy!
I'm glad that you feel pretty involved, but you are still missing the point. You still think it's about the sound, ("if one fiddle drops out for a coupla verses, it makes very little difference to the sound") but it's about the tunes. So you can say to your man, "how about playing such and such?" and he'll go "Yeah, that's a grand set and your bodhran playing really lifts it." But you'll never be able to intimate a variation you heard such and such play the other day, or introduce a fourth tune that gives everyone such a lovely surprise. I'm glad you feel involved. But get properly involved
With the bodhran the one thing is to play and the other thing is to play? What I mean by this is it well and good to play the beat on and on. But to be a good player in to learn and play the tune? Yes the tune, it can be done I have for one thing and it's there what make a good player stand out through the wall of beats.
i'm confused about the emphasis youre putting on the tunes bit, michael? i would say a session, although being about the tunes, is also about the sound, as that is the dynamic which carries a session. a good sound, to me involves something more than just a tune.i think this quote i found perhaps sums(for me) the view i have of the music:
"There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don’t hear the rhythms underneath,"
its often a tune to me sounds flat, until you get a good rythm- whether that be percussive guitar or bodhran under it, to make it what i would consider a proper *tune*.
Hey everyone...
we just HAVE to agree with Micheal....
no matter what.
If not he might bully you in the school yard, steal your lunch money and cut a large hole in you bodhran...
Oh the insult of calling a bodhran an instrument
Oh the insult of a bodhran player calling themselves musicians
Oh the insult of it all...
Let us go forth in agreement of the Great Lord of the Music (another Micheal.. wouldn't you guess) and bow down to his desires....
Let us build a pire of the Devil Bodhran and burn back to hell where the were spawned.......
I am sorry Micheal, I apologise, everything you say about the bodhran is correct. How dare me cross your ideas with my blemished and satanly views...
I bow before you....
If I can remember that far back, school bullies(even grown up bullies) only continue with their behaviour if they see that it's bothering you. Not that I'd consider Michael to be a bully, anyway. He just likes a bit of mischief. So, why not lighten up a bit Eoino?
Ever heard one kick off a set of tunes at a session? And, if s/he or he did, would it be 'bang-bop-de-bangeddy-bang' or 'bop-bang-de-boppedy-bop' with associated rim-shots and meaningful stares?
Ireland is not awash with bodhran players and never has been. Might that suggest something? I hope it does.
"There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don't hear the rhythms underneath"
I may be unpopular for saying so, but this quote chimes with my experience for all the wrong reasons. All too often (IMHO) the people who don't hear the rhythms are playing bodhrans - or (boom-chuck style) guitar. And maybe we need a new term for "melody" players; we're playing rhythms too, we can't help it
I agree with everybody especially Mr. Gill.
But perhaps the reasons you don't here too many good bodhran players are
1. - Some learn in hour and thats all they need to learn that'll do them for life.
2. - Some are, like me, too shy anretiring to take the stick.
3. - Many good players don't want to upstage the megody players.
4.- They discover the djembi.
Aaron, I'm not surprised that you don't get the emphasis that is the tunes.It's because you don't understand the tunes. You quote, "There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don't hear the rhythms underneath." And your reaction is to supply extra rythmns outwith the tune, ratrher than listening to the rythmns within the tunes themselves. Learn to play the tunes and you will get it.s
Zina, sessions and being up the duff? Strangest analogy I've ever heard. Do you really think that playing in sessions is that black and white, that if you play anything at all you are contributing fully?u
Just a thought... last time I visited Ireland I enquired about this topic... The general feed back I got was that traditionally there were good players taught through generations of fireside music but as sessions got trendy every drunken eejit wanted to join in and it all got rather out of hand ... to the point where now you mention "where is the bodhran?" and the whole room groans. Infact I think they're thinking of banning it in public^^. lol actually the only guy I ever heard actually play the instrument properly (live that is) comes from a very old family in Galway... I've seen him turn a jolly session in the corner of a bar (being mostly ignored by the punters) into a spellbinding gig where the humour and rapour charged back and forward between himself and the fiddler to the point of standing ovation from the whole room. That bodhran playing had tunes coming out of the skin that set the place on fire...
I reckon that the reason there are so few good bodhran players is that its just more fun, rewarding and joyfull to play the tunes.
There must be many peolpe who have learned melody after starting on the bodhran, I would hazard a gues that there are very few bodhran players that switched from tunes to percusion.
Yes Skigersta I've heard some good bodhran players in Galway and one them I learned a lot from. Today when I play in a session with him,he alway says to me your play from the heart and that's where the beat come from?
Oisin (my Galway friend) insisted that I play on an upturned cardboard box when he was teaching me the basics. Evidently this is the tradtional way... beginner's not being allowed the skin till they'd mastered the techniques. Guess that would have gone along way to keeping the instrument to a respectable status too ;)... unfortunately I gave it up as a bad job - for some reason I couldn't stop sounding like a galloping horse ^^
ya or nay to the goat abusers? Nay I think. The best way to play the bodhran is with a penknife. I think you have to be fully able to play the melody on an other tool to play the auld drum. It has been a cheap session access tool for to long giving certain folk status not deserved. I wonder is there such a thing as bodhran workshops were folks can go and learn the bloody thing right. I think the art to playing it right is to know when not to play which should be the majority of the time. My band has a full time bodhran player, but this guy can play and I mean it. Sean D Halpenny. He knows the crack and can find his area pretty handy enough. but in general Animal Rights Groups should really do something about the mass distruction of the poor old goat for a fairly useless cause. I know I shall fall from grace for this post, but I also know that the average bodhran player has a bit of a chip, complex or whatever you like attached to them as a result of their choosen tool, the endless cranks and jokes and bad vibes associated with the drum has made them very sensitive . And no it is not a class system found among musicans, its just a music thing. I personally can't play tunes to have them distroyed by the pounding of the tribal drum.
Well what do you know, we have another Seamus O'Duffaigh here. This was the man who said that guitarists who play/accompany ITM in sessions were all suffering from low esteem problems.
The guitar and the Bodhran have a few things in common from an ITM perspective. THey are both easy to get something out of, as a beginner. But take a lot of work to become proficient. This is where the danger comes. People who have not done the "hard yards" descend on a session with little idea as to what to do. They do not realise the potential destruction they can cause. They end up giving all others a bad name. They also polarise people to the point that some will say they don't want any bodhran or guitar in their sessions ever at all, at all!!
As two groups we do not suffer low esteem but are oft held in low esteem. If as an accompanist, I enjoy going to a session, I would hope that I could by now read the subtle signs as to when to back off on the accompaniment - minimalist or nihilist. All this means we have to be more aware than melody players of the whims of others in the session.
Accompaniment is more of a 'service' (that some don't want) whereas melody playing is quite the opposite. As one who chooses to 'serve' I feel no reduction in my self-esteem.
Honest I don't have an analyst ☺☺. Maybe I should get one.
Dave - do you mean a long haired dopesmoking smelly lazy supporter of a famous Glasgow football team, or a spaced-out new age carpenter - take your pick.
I've been keeping quite a low profile in this discussion - and it's similar to many others about bodhran in particular, and accompaniment in general, so I'm kind of laid back about the whole thing. I've played with the best - and I've played with the worst as well. If I play with the best, it's something of an honour. I choose whether to play with the worst or not, depending on the social situation - same way that people can choose to play along with me or not, as they wish. I know the arguments inside out. Everyone on this post has made good and valid points. Here endeth the lesson.
micheal-i'm not seeking to be argumentative,(in fact quite the opposite) but what do you mean by "understanding the tunes"?
my (perhaps uninformed) perception of the tunes is that although the tunes have rhythms within themselves, that can be heard, a good bodhran rythm merely accentuates, rather than takes away from the rhythms within the tune?
of course i may be geting the complete wrong end of the stick here, but if i'm going to (quote) "Learn to play the tunes and... get it", what do listen for?
What's the difference between a chiropodist and a bodhran player?
A chiropodist will buck up your feet whereas a bodhran player will f...
What do you call a bodhran at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean?
A start
How many bodhran players does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one at a time
Nobody's picked up my point regarding the fact that Ireland itself has very few bodhran players (and, I'll add, there are many sessions where you won't catch sight of the drum). Doesn't that suggest something to the non-Irish posters on this board? If not, why not?
Ah but Aaron, first you have to "understand the tunes", and you know, the tunes are easy and mean nothing, but also that you have to understand them and find their deep hidden meanings and know what you're on about, because if you just play the damn things, you're not only being twee and trampling all over the deep cultural significance of them, you're also not respecting the fact that they're just easy and you should just play them.
You can see by the previous paragraph that I've taken everything that Michael has said in the last couple of weeks to heart. ;) I may have to try medication next.
My point, Michael Gill, as I suspect you know very well, was that "contributing" and "participation" (especially *proper* participation and *proper* contributing) and all such terms are not terms that only one person has dibs on giving out about. Even if it's you. Or for that matter, me. Or Will. Or Jeremy. Or anyone else. Maybe you may not *like* someone's manner of contributing or do not value their contribution, but if other people do, well, then, it more or less just sucks to be you.
And you know that very well, my argumentative Englishman who lives in Scotland friend. (Er, that that was my point, not the point itself, necessarily.) I still think you just like to argue out of sheer mischief.
Hi dogbreath....in all seriousness, not being cynical or sarcastic or whatever....reading your comment about not having bodhrans in some sessions in Ireland...do you think that could be one measure of the musical quality of said sessions? I've been to tons of sessions all over Ireland, but if I were to recollect whether a bodhran was present or not...I couldn't honestly remember. Anyone else got any views on this aspect? Michael?
Don't bullsh!t on about understanding the melodies.
I do understand them, whistle them, and hum backing for tunes I hear.
I still choose to play bodhran.
I can also pick up flute, banjo, whistles, and play tunes some of you may never have heard.
I have also composed 2 of my own tunes...
so before the comments keep flying about "UNDERSTANDING" melody.... I do.
To add to the point of percussionists leaving the bodhran and going to melody instruments, I have done this. Unfortunately for the purists, the banjo does not fit in as a melody instrument??
Oh the flute is sort of OK.... once I am born in Sligo to Donegal fiddle playing parents, who have no interest in anything that goes thump or click. I am sure that Peadar and Mel Mercier would think of some of the comments made here laughable..
as I do.
So Michael, guff away, make your jokes.
I realise that I am repeating myself when I post retorts, but on looking at the situation, you have been on this board a lot longer.... how sad! and only the same old thing to say.
I will lurk, and watch the comments.
Bye
Ah ha, yes Zine. Yes to everything and I standby it all. Yes you have to understand the tunes, but you can't explain your understanding of them because they mean nothing tangible that you can describe in any language other than the music. Don't be fooled into thinking they are simple things just because they are simple to play. Their simplicity belies their subtle artistry. So the only way to really understand them is to "speak" their language. Thumping a drum is not enough.
And as for people who don't like what I say, or the way I say it (whether they agree with me or not), all you have to do is tell the benevolent benefactor and he'll put a stop to it all. (He's been looking for an excuse for yonks)
Worse still, many folk festivals and organisations encourage people to "have a go". So, can you blame some of these thumpers for thinking it is so easy?
In the latest Celtic Connections brochure, we have the usual "Come and try" workshops, eg
Come & try Bodhran "Absolutely no experience needed and bodhrans will be provided".
There's also "Make your own Didgeridoo" and, I suppose for those who've succeeded, "blow your own didgeridoo".
It's also possible(they claim) to learn Scottish Small pipes, and Uillean pipes in a day.
Mind you, there's also a Whisky tasting master Class but at £10 a go, I'll just go down to the off-licence instead.
This argument will never be resolved, because it's not just one argument. There is the 'are bodhrans bad' argument, and the 'What about the bad Bodhran players' arguments, and they overlap sifficiently to confuse each other. CompaqJohn says above that 'It has been a cheap session access tool for to long', and that I think is the major gripe that players of other instruments have about it. Very few players of anything would disagree that good drumming can add immeasurably to the lift of a session, if it's not just plastered behingd everything. however, everyone uses their annoyance at the multitudes of poor drummers to criticize the instrument itself, and that offends the drummers who are good. Flutes, pipes and fiddles would be abused as much as bodhrans if it were possible to pick one up for less than £100 and 'do something' at a session with it immediately. Those who do something like that with melody instruments get chastised as fakers and noodlers, or just poor players, but no stigma hangs on the instrument itself, because they areseen as being in a minority. The problem arises with bodhrans because when you see/hear a drummer, 8 times out of ten they shouldn't be allowed out of their front door. If I played flute with the fluency, grace and technical ability of the majority of drummers I've heard, it would be equivalent to stumbling through 3 Blind Mice at an audition for the Royal Philharmonic (Well, maybe something like that?)
So what is the answer?
Easy...
All the good Bodhran players should kill all the bad ones. They won't see it coming, so it should be easy, because the bad ones think they ARE the good ones...
GOAT WARS!!!!
I don't always agree with him, but it's a pity that people don't see that Michael Gill, although occasionly tries to rise folk, generally gives excellent advice, presumably because he cares a lot about trad.
And we're lucky that he and others contribute in a meaningfull way.
The best sessions in Ireland do not ever include a bodhran 'player' and most of the best musicians in Ireland have never recorded an album which includes a goatskin-basher.
Very interested to scan the debate on the much maligned Bodhran.As a fulltime player of the yoke I of course have encountered a myrid of reaction to the DRUM. Happily the overall reaction has and still is positive and can in moments of musical splendour be esctatic! Thats my experiance. But then I have been playin the music since I was 6 years old,as have most of my musical comrades(ALL of us play a number of instruments ) We are passionate about our music and always play from the heart,session,gig,or concert.The drum represents the heartbeat. Thus it has to be played as a heart,sometimes as a murmer,sometimes with bloodflowing passion,but always in harmony with the rest of the body (i.e. the other instruments).But dont get too serious! Music is for fun and laughter and the lifting of spirits! thats how we play in Connemara! Keep on playing! SEAN D HALPENNY
Bodhran's Few and Between
Bodhran's Few and Between
Have you ever notice how there seems to be shortage of good bodhran player around? This was a question I put forward to my friend last week at a session. His reply was " yes your correct for all the bodhran players I see in a months playing I could see only one good player in a blue moon".
I've found this also in my personnal view it's a common occurance right through the trad nations. Take this for example a young person goes out for there first session with their new bodhran which they put in alot of time playing for this night. A. the person know the other players or B. the person meet's them for the first time. A. is more lightly to get support in playing where B. could get left out of the session? This could prevent somebody moving on with there playing or not.
Or the lack of bodhran players could just be to lack of people playing? What do the other people at The Session think could cause the lack of bodhran masters and masterness?
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Oh god...celtichippy, I hope you've a thick skin.... ;) Be nice, Michael Gill.
Yes, of course it's true that if you know someone at a session, it's easier to be a part of it. That's true regardless of what instrument you play at all or what level you play at.
I think perhaps a mosey through our archives might be interesting for you. For instance, the recent thread on People Slagging Off Other Instruments: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/5021
Have fun! And, welcome to The Session! (Put a few words about yourself in your bio, would you?)
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Well the problem has been discussed a lot of times. I think the the most obvious reason for the existence of bad bodhran players is, that the difficulty of playing this instrument properly is mainly underrated. It seems so easy to play, but obviously it is not. A lot of people seem to think, that because the get a sound out of a drum, they can play it. A lot of times people pick up a bodhran because they want to be part of a session or so. Because their musical abilities are limited or it takes too long to learn other instruments they start playing the Bodhran. Not only that they cannot play, the bad players even have the worst instruments. They mostly bought it in a tourist shop four a few pounds. Good players play better instruments which even multiplies the difference between good and bad players.
But we can discuss this matter as often as we want. The problem will not be solved.
# Posted on November 24th 2004 by Ranks
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Quote from my [excellent] drummer friend - "Why do they [bodhrani] play so many beats along with the notes of the tunes? It's punchy for the first 30 seconds, then it's just so many extra notes".....he's got a good point. Maybe think of playing the type of rhythm on the bodhran that only a drummer can play...I think I'm trying to say 'stop being so busy'. It's hard to describe it. But I think you all know what I mean. The good ones can do it.
Having said all that, there are a few players who turn up to my session regularly, play too busily (in my opinion), but keep the volume down....sort of 'conspicuous by absence'. No complaints there.
Jim
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Hi celtichippy!
Just back from playing bodhrán in my fortnightly regular session. As always, felt challenged by the regular crowd who can be really good and they were tonight. They've been thinking about things and have been learning new sets of tunes (this is a session that's been going for a long time - twenty years?). To fit in with the new tunes, I had to improvise as usual. I was listening to the new tunes and tried not to just bang along with too many beats.
In the past at one significant stage of my learning I was playing with a flute player and tried to vary my beating to fit in with how he had to take a breath every now and then. So I don't just motor along regardless but "pause for a breath" every now and then when it fits in for a beat. It helps me follow the shape of the tune, gives my muscles a moment of relaxation so I don't get tired and lose the plot, and helps me to make sure I'm following the tempo and not rushing it.
I've had a lot of support and encouragement from the other melody players over the years. There were some negative comments from some in the early days, but I tried to take on board what they were telling me.
But every session I play in (regular one or others) is a challenge and I have to keep my ears open. I know the melody players put a lot of work in to keep things fresh. I try to respond to what they're doing.
Not all bodhrán learners have this encouragement, I suppose. And I'm sure some "drummers" just want to join in but don't really have a clue about how the music goes.
Like playing the blues (my other musical background on electric guitar), the space between the notes is as expressive as the notes you play.
The bodhrán looks like an easy option as an instrument. It isn't. This might be why there are a lot of people who have a go but haven't a clue, really.
Don't know if this answers your question (why are there so few good bodhrán players around?)
\())
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by greenman
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
The answer to this question is blindingly straightforward.
For starters, out of all the "instruments" you might hear in a session, the bodhran is by far the easiest to play. Now don't all get shirty and whinge on about it being harder than it looks, so what if it is harder than it looks, it's still easy peasy. And even that is compared to diddley music being easy peasy music in the first place.
So if it's that easy, why are there so few good players? It's because any body with any degree of inteligence and/or understanding of this music who tries playing the damned thing soon realises that playing tunes is more rewarding.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Ah, now this is where I think you're wrong, Mr Gill. Playing a bodhran well, as opposed to just bashing away without any empathy for what the melody players are doing, is extremely rewarding. But as other people here have suggested, it's actually very difficult to play one well. And the practice required to get to the stage of playing well is probably not as rewarding as practising a melody instrument (and you've got to have very understanding - or deaf - neighbours): the relentless thump-thump of solo bodhran could drive a man insane, but it's the only way to start drawing out the subtle nuances within the drum. Whereas if you're a melody player, at least you've got the instant appeal of a recognisable tune emerging from your instrument while you're practising.
I think you hear the results of your practice much quicker on melody instruments - which might explain why, as you say, 'anybody with any degree of intelligence and/or understanding of this music' might feel better playing a melodic instrument. It's also the case that those people soon find out how much stick the bodhran player has to put up with, and switch to another instrument for the sake of a quiet life . . .
Sorry, I'm a bass player by profession, and the bass in rock, pop and jazz occupies much the same position in these arenas as the bodhran does in ITM - the easiest instrument in the world to get a note out of, to the extent that basically anyone can claim to 'play' bass and bluff their way through a simple rock song, but in truth very difficult to really play well. So this is a daily battle for me. I'm just a glutton for punishment.
K.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Ah come off it. It's not rocket science. Are you really saying that people turn to melody playing instruments because it's a quick fix over playing the bodhran well? I'm sure there will be many a budding fiddle player's flat mate who will take umbridge with this, but that's not the point.
You may well find playing your bodhran well extreemly rewarding, but what I'm trying to get through to you is that there are greater rewards to be found in playing the tunes. All the subtlety you can find in your percussion you can find in the tunes, plus a whole gammut more. That's one of the wonders of diddley music. These tunes are very percussive things, they reek of the subtleties of rythmn.
You play rock bass. Great, a vital thing to to sound of that music, It has evolved a space in the music that only it can occupy. Not so with the bodhran in diddley, anything you do on that is meerly reproducing what is already being done in the tune.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
But couldn't you say that for a lot of instruments ?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
the bodhran may well be the easiest to play, Mr Gill (hence a large number of poor/average players), but is it the easiest to play well? as in every instrument, there are a wide range of standards. what i think gives bodhran a bad name are those new players, that think by bashing a loud 1,2,3,4 rhythm in a session- they are percussive geniuses.
and isn't the reward of the playing, similar to 'beauty in the eye of the beholder'- if a player wants the rewards of percussivve rythms of a bodhran, over diddling on a fiddle, by all means let him
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Well, I'd have to begin by saying that what I understand as good bodhran playing does not simply consist of 'reproducing what is already being done in the tune' - a great bodhran player, to my ears, is someone who can complement and highlight what is happening in the melody . . .
But more importantly, isn't the texture of sounds, the 'orchestration' of a session, if you like, an important element, too? It isn't so much what you can do with the instrument as the actual sound it makes that draws me to it. There's no other instrument that can create those haunting rumbles, percussive pops and ringing rimshots. While you rightly (and rather poetically, I might add!) state that the tunes 'reek of the subtleties of rhythm', the same can be said of melodies by Bach or Mozart or Grieg, among many others. And yet these composers still saw fit to bring in other instruments to bring out those subtleties, using the differing timbres and tonalities of the orchestral instruments and percussion to create a full, textured sound.
I love the sound of the unaccompanied fiddle and flute (for example) as much as the next man, but sometimes, when the bodhran, guitar and (God forbid!) spoons kick in with their thumping bass notes, chiming mids and rattling high tones, the whole thing seems to lift off to a new level. It's like comparing a black and white sketch with a vibrant oil painting.
K.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Oooh, that "reward in the playing is in the eye of the boholder" really gets my goat (so to speak) because it's so symptomatic of why I complain so. Do you not see how selfish that is? "If some one wants to play the bodhran over the fiddle, let him."?? Why do you not get it that contributing is the thing, not pleasing your self?
Kidcharlamagne's response is more intelligent. And yes I agree (shock horror) that timbre/orchestration can be an important element and that a well played bodhran can sound pretty good. But we're not talking Bach here, where the counterpoint is part of it. You think Bach wrote tunes and then accompanied them with counterpoint? The whole thing is integral, like the great bass line is to a classic Zepelin track.
Do you really think that the crackilng sound of terrific pipes flute and fiddle is a monochrome thing that shouts to be coloured in?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
well- im not trying to be intelligent to the point of giving everyone something to lampoon me on, like last time.
last time i went to a session, everyone (even the bodhran players) were there to contribute. im sure if they wanted to please themselves, theyd be stuck at home bashing the goatskin.
the 'beauty in the eye of the beholder comment' only arises from individuals preferences (im sure theres a reference in the "feel of an instrument" discussion)- not everyone is suited to the fiddle/pipes/bodhran etc, and its up to them what they choose to play. i agree- there are times when a well-placed bodhran can add to the texture(if played right and sympathetically to the music),but there are times when it spoils the consistency.
and in reference to your question- no- if the pipes/flute/fiddle can keep a dynamic in the tune, that would only be hindered by extra instruments. but for as many times as this happens, there are also the times when a good beat to the music lifts the players, and the session.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Fair play Kidcharlemagne...
seems like Michael may switch to playing bodhran soon (-:
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Just to back up Aaron with his 'eye of the beholder' thing, I think that the essence of what he means is not that bodhran players just play for themselves but that certain individuals are simply drawn to different instruments, for whatever reasons. And it just happens that some people like the sound of the bodhran and want to make that sound, while others prefer the fiddle or the pipes or the banjo . . . For example, I play the guitar and can pick my way through a decent selection of tunes, but while I love a good rock guitar or a bit of solo classical guitar, I happen to think that the guitar sounds a bit weak as a melody instrument in diddley (at least the way I play guitar!), and I just love the percussive thump of a bodhran in a diddley setting. Which is the simple reason why I choose to play bodhran in any sessions I go to.
By the way, I'm sorry, I had no intent to imply that unaccompanied fiddle/flute/pipes might need 'colouring in' - in most cases, a black and white sketch can still be considered a complete work of art - I find many of da Vinci's pencil sketches much more aesthetically pleasing and somehow more evocative than some of his painted works. Both are valid art forms which can stand on their own merits - I'm not suggesting that one is any less complete than the other. Some people just have a natural preference for one type of art over another.
Anyway, as in any discussion between Mr Gill and a bodhran player on this site, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I suppose it might be something of an achievement to have got him to type the words 'a well played bodhran can sound pretty good'. But in any case, I think I understand a little better the reasons behind Michael's objections to the bodhran now, and each to his own - I can respect his reasoning - this little discussion has been a lot more edifying than the relentless 'drip drip' and what seemed like unwarranted antagonism of some of his earlier posts!
Till we meet again, Michael!
K.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Good God Eoino I hope not, his lack of imagination would severly limit him on an instrument that doesn't play tunes.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
In fairness, it's the instrument his attacking rather than a personal attack on any individual.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
thanks kidcharlemange- that was what i was meaning
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Actually, in fairness, it's the individuals who decide that this "instrument" (I wince everytime I use that word) deserves the focus of their attention that I'm attacking.
kidcharlemange says the simple reason why he chose the bodhran was because he likes the sound of it. And I agree that it can sound pretty good (though it rarely does, which is a separate but related argument). But the simple point you bashers refuse to admit is the music is about the tunes and I simply refuse to agree to disagree. You play an instrument because you like the sound of it, and therefor sideline yourselves for ever to the perifery. Don't get me wrong, this vitriol is not to intended to drive you from the sidelines, quite the reverse. It's intended to get you properly involved.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I don't fully disaggree with you, but you can't have failed to notice that your drip driping has actually managed to convince at least one poster to change their mind about taking up a melody instrument.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Heh, you don't have to agree to disagree - no matter how much you refuse to agree to disagree, you just disagree, which is the same thing in the end . . .
Putting linguistics to one side, I don't honestly think any of us goatbashers, those of us who are really serious about the music and care about our role in it, have refused to admit that the music is about the tunes. We know it's about the tunes! We're under no illusion that all we're doing is (we hope! If we're decent enough players) gilding the lily. The music's beautiful without us, but in some cases, it can be even better with some tasteful, well-played percussion. And I think I'm not alone in saying that we bodhran players don't feel sidelined - we feel as involved as anybody in our sessions. We're listening when somebody suggests a tune so that we're ready with a suitable accompaniment; we're listening for the change from the A part to the B part, ready to modify our playing accordingly; we're listening so that we're ready as the first tune segues into the next; we throw in the odd rhythmic embellishment . . . Tell me all that's not being involved. Heck, about the only thing we can't do is start off a set. And the melody players at my session are always happy to listen to anyone's tune suggestions, even those of a percussionist . . . There are enough guys up there all playing the melody anyway - at a busy session, if one fiddle drops out for a coupla verses, it makes very little difference to the sound - there are another two and a coupla flutes still playing the tune - but if yer bodhran man stops, or changes his accents, the whole feel of the tune can change. So I feel pretty involved. Maybe I'm just lucky that my fellow players also consider me 'involved' - I'll admit that at one or two sessions I've come across the odd leader who will blank the percussionist as he discusses keys and tune suggestions with the other melodicists . . . And even that didn't make me feel 'not involved', just a bit undervalued, maybe . . .
I like the fact that you care about us, that you want us to be involved. But please, don't worry about us - we're happy!
K.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I'm glad that you feel pretty involved, but you are still missing the point. You still think it's about the sound, ("if one fiddle drops out for a coupla verses, it makes very little difference to the sound") but it's about the tunes. So you can say to your man, "how about playing such and such?" and he'll go "Yeah, that's a grand set and your bodhran playing really lifts it." But you'll never be able to intimate a variation you heard such and such play the other day, or introduce a fourth tune that gives everyone such a lovely surprise. I'm glad you feel involved. But get properly involved
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
With the bodhran the one thing is to play and the other thing is to play? What I mean by this is it well and good to play the beat on and on. But to be a good player in to learn and play the tune? Yes the tune, it can be done I have for one thing and it's there what make a good player stand out through the wall of beats.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
i'm confused about the emphasis youre putting on the tunes bit, michael? i would say a session, although being about the tunes, is also about the sound, as that is the dynamic which carries a session. a good sound, to me involves something more than just a tune.i think this quote i found perhaps sums(for me) the view i have of the music:
"There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don’t hear the rhythms underneath,"
its often a tune to me sounds flat, until you get a good rythm- whether that be percussive guitar or bodhran under it, to make it what i would consider a proper *tune*.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
But what makes a good tune is it the tune it's self and the silence in between the notes of the tune?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Hey everyone...
we just HAVE to agree with Micheal....
no matter what.
If not he might bully you in the school yard, steal your lunch money and cut a large hole in you bodhran...
Oh the insult of calling a bodhran an instrument
Oh the insult of a bodhran player calling themselves musicians
Oh the insult of it all...
Let us go forth in agreement of the Great Lord of the Music (another Micheal.. wouldn't you guess) and bow down to his desires....
Let us build a pire of the Devil Bodhran and burn back to hell where the were spawned.......
I am sorry Micheal, I apologise, everything you say about the bodhran is correct. How dare me cross your ideas with my blemished and satanly views...
I bow before you....
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
If I can remember that far back, school bullies(even grown up bullies) only continue with their behaviour if they see that it's bothering you. Not that I'd consider Michael to be a bully, anyway. He just likes a bit of mischief. So, why not lighten up a bit Eoino?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I have tried John, I have tried.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Ah, Michael, "*properly* involved" -- is that like being *properly* preganant? *More* pregnant? You just like to argue, that's you. ;)
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Just a point re. the value of bodhranistas.
Ever heard one kick off a set of tunes at a session? And, if s/he or he did, would it be 'bang-bop-de-bangeddy-bang' or 'bop-bang-de-boppedy-bop' with associated rim-shots and meaningful stares?
Ireland is not awash with bodhran players and never has been. Might that suggest something? I hope it does.
D
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Dogbreath...
try Loose the Head, with Mossy playing....
No complaints from Gary Shannon
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
"There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don't hear the rhythms underneath"
I may be unpopular for saying so, but this quote chimes with my experience for all the wrong reasons. All too often (IMHO) the people who don't hear the rhythms are playing bodhrans - or (boom-chuck style) guitar. And maybe we need a new term for "melody" players; we're playing rhythms too, we can't help it
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I agree with everybody especially Mr. Gill.
But perhaps the reasons you don't here too many good bodhran players are
1. - Some learn in hour and thats all they need to learn that'll do them for life.
2. - Some are, like me, too shy anretiring to take the stick.
3. - Many good players don't want to upstage the megody players.
4.- They discover the djembi.
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by Davetnova
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Do you mean Zeppelin, Mick?
# Posted on November 25th 2004 by curlew
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Aaron, I'm not surprised that you don't get the emphasis that is the tunes.It's because you don't understand the tunes. You quote, "There are lots of great melodies in Irish music but often people don't hear the rhythms underneath." And your reaction is to supply extra rythmns outwith the tune, ratrher than listening to the rythmns within the tunes themselves. Learn to play the tunes and you will get it.s
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Zina, sessions and being up the duff? Strangest analogy I've ever heard. Do you really think that playing in sessions is that black and white, that if you play anything at all you are contributing fully?u
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
dogbreath, thanks mate
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
AAAAH hello Michael What are they like?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Hello celtic hippy. Less of the hippy shite, and learn the tuness
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
A it's only in the name? But Have you play in Glasgow on a Sunday?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Just a thought... last time I visited Ireland I enquired about this topic... The general feed back I got was that traditionally there were good players taught through generations of fireside music but as sessions got trendy every drunken eejit wanted to join in and it all got rather out of hand ... to the point where now you mention "where is the bodhran?" and the whole room groans. Infact I think they're thinking of banning it in public^^. lol actually the only guy I ever heard actually play the instrument properly (live that is) comes from a very old family in Galway... I've seen him turn a jolly session in the corner of a bar (being mostly ignored by the punters) into a spellbinding gig where the humour and rapour charged back and forward between himself and the fiddler to the point of standing ovation from the whole room. That bodhran playing had tunes coming out of the skin that set the place on fire...
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Skigersta
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I reckon that the reason there are so few good bodhran players is that its just more fun, rewarding and joyfull to play the tunes.
There must be many peolpe who have learned melody after starting on the bodhran, I would hazard a gues that there are very few bodhran players that switched from tunes to percusion.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by clunk999
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Yes Skigersta I've heard some good bodhran players in Galway and one them I learned a lot from. Today when I play in a session with him,he alway says to me your play from the heart and that's where the beat come from?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Oisin (my Galway friend) insisted that I play on an upturned cardboard box when he was teaching me the basics. Evidently this is the tradtional way... beginner's not being allowed the skin till they'd mastered the techniques. Guess that would have gone along way to keeping the instrument to a respectable status too ;)... unfortunately I gave it up as a bad job - for some reason I couldn't stop sounding like a galloping horse ^^
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Skigersta
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
ya or nay to the goat abusers? Nay I think. The best way to play the bodhran is with a penknife. I think you have to be fully able to play the melody on an other tool to play the auld drum. It has been a cheap session access tool for to long giving certain folk status not deserved. I wonder is there such a thing as bodhran workshops were folks can go and learn the bloody thing right. I think the art to playing it right is to know when not to play which should be the majority of the time. My band has a full time bodhran player, but this guy can play and I mean it. Sean D Halpenny. He knows the crack and can find his area pretty handy enough. but in general Animal Rights Groups should really do something about the mass distruction of the poor old goat for a fairly useless cause. I know I shall fall from grace for this post, but I also know that the average bodhran player has a bit of a chip, complex or whatever you like attached to them as a result of their choosen tool, the endless cranks and jokes and bad vibes associated with the drum has made them very sensitive . And no it is not a class system found among musicans, its just a music thing. I personally can't play tunes to have them distroyed by the pounding of the tribal drum.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Bodhran's and Guitars in Sessions
Well what do you know, we have another Seamus O'Duffaigh here. This was the man who said that guitarists who play/accompany ITM in sessions were all suffering from low esteem problems.
The guitar and the Bodhran have a few things in common from an ITM perspective. THey are both easy to get something out of, as a beginner. But take a lot of work to become proficient. This is where the danger comes. People who have not done the "hard yards" descend on a session with little idea as to what to do. They do not realise the potential destruction they can cause. They end up giving all others a bad name. They also polarise people to the point that some will say they don't want any bodhran or guitar in their sessions ever at all, at all!!
As two groups we do not suffer low esteem but are oft held in low esteem. If as an accompanist, I enjoy going to a session, I would hope that I could by now read the subtle signs as to when to back off on the accompaniment - minimalist or nihilist. All this means we have to be more aware than melody players of the whims of others in the session.
Accompaniment is more of a 'service' (that some don't want) whereas melody playing is quite the opposite. As one who chooses to 'serve' I feel no reduction in my self-esteem.
Honest I don't have an analyst ☺☺. Maybe I should get one.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Donough
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
That’s a good point, the accompanist is there to serve.
Eoino, if the melody player doesn’t want this service, would you provide it anyway ?
♫
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Michael, Orson & Dogbreath are right, there's a time to stand up & be counted!
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Leftheris
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Don't stop now lads, I'm enjoying this.
BTW - is that celtic-hippy, or celti-chippy?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Dave - do you mean a long haired dopesmoking smelly lazy supporter of a famous Glasgow football team, or a spaced-out new age carpenter - take your pick.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
SNAP Showdaddy, I swear to God, though I got there before you !
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
chippy - a place which produces and sells pieces of potato deep fried in either animal fat or vegetable oil.
and pies.
mmmmmmmm pies.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Damn you, i had no breakfast !
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I've been keeping quite a low profile in this discussion - and it's similar to many others about bodhran in particular, and accompaniment in general, so I'm kind of laid back about the whole thing. I've played with the best - and I've played with the worst as well. If I play with the best, it's something of an honour. I choose whether to play with the worst or not, depending on the social situation - same way that people can choose to play along with me or not, as they wish. I know the arguments inside out. Everyone on this post has made good and valid points. Here endeth the lesson.
Jim
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
a session can do without beaters strummers and thumpers but it can't do without melodymakers.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
micheal-i'm not seeking to be argumentative,(in fact quite the opposite) but what do you mean by "understanding the tunes"?
my (perhaps uninformed) perception of the tunes is that although the tunes have rhythms within themselves, that can be heard, a good bodhran rythm merely accentuates, rather than takes away from the rhythms within the tune?
of course i may be geting the complete wrong end of the stick here, but if i'm going to (quote) "Learn to play the tunes and... get it", what do listen for?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
What's the difference between a chiropodist and a bodhran player?
A chiropodist will buck up your feet whereas a bodhran player will f...
What do you call a bodhran at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean?
A start
How many bodhran players does it take to change a light bulb?
Just one at a time
Nobody's picked up my point regarding the fact that Ireland itself has very few bodhran players (and, I'll add, there are many sessions where you won't catch sight of the drum). Doesn't that suggest something to the non-Irish posters on this board? If not, why not?
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Ah but Aaron, first you have to "understand the tunes", and you know, the tunes are easy and mean nothing, but also that you have to understand them and find their deep hidden meanings and know what you're on about, because if you just play the damn things, you're not only being twee and trampling all over the deep cultural significance of them, you're also not respecting the fact that they're just easy and you should just play them.
You can see by the previous paragraph that I've taken everything that Michael has said in the last couple of weeks to heart. ;) I may have to try medication next.
My point, Michael Gill, as I suspect you know very well, was that "contributing" and "participation" (especially *proper* participation and *proper* contributing) and all such terms are not terms that only one person has dibs on giving out about. Even if it's you. Or for that matter, me. Or Will. Or Jeremy. Or anyone else. Maybe you may not *like* someone's manner of contributing or do not value their contribution, but if other people do, well, then, it more or less just sucks to be you.
And you know that very well, my argumentative Englishman who lives in Scotland friend. (Er, that that was my point, not the point itself, necessarily.) I still think you just like to argue out of sheer mischief.
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
zina, zina, zina- we all know satire is the lowest form of wit.... ;)
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by aaron b
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
And here I thought it was puns!
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
No, that'll be aliteration, Zina Lina Lee (Hee! Hee!)
Jimmy Jim James
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Hi dogbreath....in all seriousness, not being cynical or sarcastic or whatever....reading your comment about not having bodhrans in some sessions in Ireland...do you think that could be one measure of the musical quality of said sessions? I've been to tons of sessions all over Ireland, but if I were to recollect whether a bodhran was present or not...I couldn't honestly remember. Anyone else got any views on this aspect? Michael?
Jim
# Posted on November 26th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
No David, still trying to get the time to get one legally. Temped to nick one from the nearby building site though!
Jim
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Good god, are the two of you in cahoots, then? My courage fails me. *smirk* I'm never sarcastic, David. I'm not smart enough.
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.s. david
Was it your lovely place (further) in the country you were at? Did you stay warm?
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Whit? Wit? Far 'n' few between, skibereen 'til Clonakilty ye houres!
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Celtic Hippy
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Don't bullsh!t on about understanding the melodies.
I do understand them, whistle them, and hum backing for tunes I hear.
I still choose to play bodhran.
I can also pick up flute, banjo, whistles, and play tunes some of you may never have heard.
I have also composed 2 of my own tunes...
so before the comments keep flying about "UNDERSTANDING" melody.... I do.
To add to the point of percussionists leaving the bodhran and going to melody instruments, I have done this. Unfortunately for the purists, the banjo does not fit in as a melody instrument??
Oh the flute is sort of OK.... once I am born in Sligo to Donegal fiddle playing parents, who have no interest in anything that goes thump or click. I am sure that Peadar and Mel Mercier would think of some of the comments made here laughable..
as I do.
So Michael, guff away, make your jokes.
I realise that I am repeating myself when I post retorts, but on looking at the situation, you have been on this board a lot longer.... how sad! and only the same old thing to say.
I will lurk, and watch the comments.
Bye
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Ah ha, yes Zine. Yes to everything and I standby it all. Yes you have to understand the tunes, but you can't explain your understanding of them because they mean nothing tangible that you can describe in any language other than the music. Don't be fooled into thinking they are simple things just because they are simple to play. Their simplicity belies their subtle artistry. So the only way to really understand them is to "speak" their language. Thumping a drum is not enough.
And as for people who don't like what I say, or the way I say it (whether they agree with me or not), all you have to do is tell the benevolent benefactor and he'll put a stop to it all. (He's been looking for an excuse for yonks)
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by ...
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Worse still, many folk festivals and organisations encourage people to "have a go". So, can you blame some of these thumpers for thinking it is so easy?
In the latest Celtic Connections brochure, we have the usual "Come and try" workshops, eg
Come & try Bodhran "Absolutely no experience needed and bodhrans will be provided".
There's also "Make your own Didgeridoo" and, I suppose for those who've succeeded, "blow your own didgeridoo".
It's also possible(they claim) to learn Scottish Small pipes, and Uillean pipes in a day.
Mind you, there's also a Whisky tasting master Class but at £10 a go, I'll just go down to the off-licence instead.
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
This argument will never be resolved, because it's not just one argument. There is the 'are bodhrans bad' argument, and the 'What about the bad Bodhran players' arguments, and they overlap sifficiently to confuse each other. CompaqJohn says above that 'It has been a cheap session access tool for to long', and that I think is the major gripe that players of other instruments have about it. Very few players of anything would disagree that good drumming can add immeasurably to the lift of a session, if it's not just plastered behingd everything. however, everyone uses their annoyance at the multitudes of poor drummers to criticize the instrument itself, and that offends the drummers who are good. Flutes, pipes and fiddles would be abused as much as bodhrans if it were possible to pick one up for less than £100 and 'do something' at a session with it immediately. Those who do something like that with melody instruments get chastised as fakers and noodlers, or just poor players, but no stigma hangs on the instrument itself, because they areseen as being in a minority. The problem arises with bodhrans because when you see/hear a drummer, 8 times out of ten they shouldn't be allowed out of their front door. If I played flute with the fluency, grace and technical ability of the majority of drummers I've heard, it would be equivalent to stumbling through 3 Blind Mice at an audition for the Royal Philharmonic (Well, maybe something like that?)
So what is the answer?
Easy...
All the good Bodhran players should kill all the bad ones. They won't see it coming, so it should be easy, because the bad ones think they ARE the good ones...
GOAT WARS!!!!
# Posted on November 27th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
I don't always agree with him, but it's a pity that people don't see that Michael Gill, although occasionly tries to rise folk, generally gives excellent advice, presumably because he cares a lot about trad.
And we're lucky that he and others contribute in a meaningfull way.
# Posted on November 28th 2004 by BegF
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Jim,
The best sessions in Ireland do not ever include a bodhran 'player' and most of the best musicians in Ireland have never recorded an album which includes a goatskin-basher.
'Nuff said.
# Posted on November 28th 2004 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Bodhran's Few and Between
Very interested to scan the debate on the much maligned Bodhran.As a fulltime player of the yoke I of course have encountered a myrid of reaction to the DRUM. Happily the overall reaction has and still is positive and can in moments of musical splendour be esctatic! Thats my experiance. But then I have been playin the music since I was 6 years old,as have most of my musical comrades(ALL of us play a number of instruments ) We are passionate about our music and always play from the heart,session,gig,or concert.The drum represents the heartbeat. Thus it has to be played as a heart,sometimes as a murmer,sometimes with bloodflowing passion,but always in harmony with the rest of the body (i.e. the other instruments).But dont get too serious! Music is for fun and laughter and the lifting of spirits! thats how we play in Connemara! Keep on playing! SEAN D HALPENNY
)
# Posted on June 8th 2006 by SEANDHALPENNY