Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
I'm a great fan of Arty McGlynn, Donal Lunny, Denis Cahill (you da man) amongst others.
Since I started listening to them, I've lost interest in playing the usual randoms (and loud) chords that make guitar players a...heated subject of discussion on this forum. A revelation of sorts.
But now, what do I do, and how do I do it ?
I've switched to DADGAD, I've started to play tunes instead of chords but ... I think I need someone to show me how a guitar is best played in trad music.
I took some lessons in Walton's a while back, it was
interesting, but not quite what I'm looking for. Can anyone recommend a place/teacher in Dublin ?
Any other advice welcome.
Much appreciated.
V
PS : btw, I went to see P.Brown's gig in the Hub on Friday, advertised here in a "small ad". Amazing stuff. Really amazing. Looking forward to your next gig guys.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Good question. What do you mean by random chords? I think a lot fo the very talented ITM guitarists are now defing the instruments role and it is too progressive for my taste. When I hear 4 chord voicings per measure when all that is needed is a strong D chord, I shutter. Less is more. The DADGAD ers shift chord every beat, yuk. The tune needs anchoring. Just me.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
saltcast....and the perfect example would be "The Eavesdropper" as played on "Music from the Sets" by Various Artists - melody on pipes, acc. on DADGAD guitar. Part A has nothing but a bare G chord of GDGDG all the way through....then the B part has a chord change every bar...albeit a subtle chord change of only one or two notes at a time, as opposed to extreme chord changes like the (standard chord shapes) of Em-D-C-G-Am-G-D. You get your anchor on part A - and your interest maintained in part B.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Good point. There are degrees of chord changes. Subtle ones work, but oft times are jazz related, moving tension notes around. Add to it the Lunasa-esque syncopation- bleck.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
I don't think we can place the blame on DADGAD-ers, or users of any other tuning - any tuning (within reason) can be used effectively and tastefully or ineffectively and tastelessly. I agree with Saltcast that some guitarists are inclined to use too many chords. But what can be equally frustrating is when a backer fails to notice certain important features in the tune, which could be enhanced with chord changes. Playing a single chord for a whole part, as in Jim's example, or even a whole round of a tune, can be a very effective way of building up musical tension, of it is contrasted with some tasteful chord runs next time round.
There is a tendency among some of the more proficient musicians - tune players as well as backers - to do everything they are capable of all the time. It can even afflict lesser players, such as myself. I think, like acne and health, it is predominantly a disease of the young and subsides with age.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
So we all agree with that genius who said that you don't need to play all the notes, just the right ones. Or as David said, no point in playing three fancy chords when all the tune needs is a D.
I didn't exactly mean "random" chords in my opening post, just that I've been trying to get by with mostly "standard" chords, arpeggios and such, but I often ended up killing the tune altogether. I would like to add a bit of finesse, but books and videos don't work very well for me. So if you know of anyone in Dublin who can steer a student in the right direction for a while, I'd be very much obliged.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Saltcast hits the preverbal nail squarely with his 'less' (is more) & 'anchor'
Woody Gurthrie thought that even '3-chords' was being flash _suffice to say the American folk legendeer was dead right
On another note, my favourite instrument (for 'tone' and everything) is the uillieann pipes; inspired by a great friend, player, writer and maker Brendan Ring, the thing about this almost totally natural 'synthesiser' is the 'drones' _and that's where the anchor bit comes in
one example being an anchored modal-type D chord on a driving reel, when the 2nd part is 50 / 50 on the so called correct chords (bordering on discordant), but has roughly the same effect as the pipes drones _where the guitarists right hand does the work of the pipers left (taking they're both right-handed)
_it's then Davids 'Musical tension' developes . . .
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Chris Smith has a lot of worthwhile information on this subject in his "Celtic Back-Up" book. He has an excellent list CDs that have a variety of backing approaches that you might listen to.
As sifudave54 mentioned, the Homespun tapes are good starting point.
Myself, I like to get very familiar with the tunes and work out something that provides rhythm and accentuates the melody without getting in the way. Much like an accompanist backs a vocalist. Often, I strive not to do the samething all the way through a tune. Sometimes I drone, sometimes boom-chuck, sometimes cross pick, sometime fingerstyle arpeggios or plucked partial cords, sometimes strumming. Not uncommonly I will play the melody with the band if a backing is not suitable or simply sit out all together. It all depends on the tune. I use a different approach to polkas vs. jigs vs. reels vs. hornpipes. The music itself dictates what to do in a sense. The sense of build during repeats often requires, say, cross picking on the first two passes with strumming on the third.
All in all you need to experiment and get feedback from fellow players and other listeners.
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
As someone who made this journey into ITM accompaniment without a tutor (I already had reasonable mastery of my instrument outisde of ITM):
One of the things I think is important is to have someone give you feedback. If you can get this from melody players it will be as valuable as a guitar teacher, but again this assumes you have achieved some basic mastery of the instrument.
Ideally keep trying different things in your accompaniment and keep asking the melody players who you accompany, for as much feedback as they can give.
My experience has been that many melody players are either reluctant or not interested in giving feedback to an accompanist but in can be very helpful.
Ask them do they prefer one thing or another rather than ask them to praise/denigrate you. It is confusing at first because some melody players want a pulsing powerful rhythmic accompaniment whereas others want a sparce open style of accompaniment that gives them plenty of space (this is particularily true of accompanying some 'solo' performers).
Anyway it would be a boring world if everyone liked the same thing which is why an accompanist should learn to do their job in as many different ways as possible - keeps everyone from getting bored.
Mentioned above is the comment about a chord that is anchored but when it changes only one or two strategic notes change (ie keep the same bass notes and change an upper note or vice versa).
Above all it is important to learn the tunes and listen, listen listen.
Hope this hasn't just added to the confusion.
Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
I'm a great fan of Arty McGlynn, Donal Lunny, Denis Cahill (you da man) amongst others.
Since I started listening to them, I've lost interest in playing the usual randoms (and loud) chords that make guitar players a...heated subject of discussion on this forum. A revelation of sorts.
But now, what do I do, and how do I do it ?
I've switched to DADGAD, I've started to play tunes instead of chords but ... I think I need someone to show me how a guitar is best played in trad music.
I took some lessons in Walton's a while back, it was
interesting, but not quite what I'm looking for. Can anyone recommend a place/teacher in Dublin ?
Any other advice welcome.
Much appreciated.
V
PS : btw, I went to see P.Brown's gig in the Hub on Friday, advertised here in a "small ad". Amazing stuff. Really amazing. Looking forward to your next gig guys.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by vboyer974
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Good question. What do you mean by random chords? I think a lot fo the very talented ITM guitarists are now defing the instruments role and it is too progressive for my taste. When I hear 4 chord voicings per measure when all that is needed is a strong D chord, I shutter. Less is more. The DADGAD ers shift chord every beat, yuk. The tune needs anchoring. Just me.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by saltcast
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
saltcast....and the perfect example would be "The Eavesdropper" as played on "Music from the Sets" by Various Artists - melody on pipes, acc. on DADGAD guitar. Part A has nothing but a bare G chord of GDGDG all the way through....then the B part has a chord change every bar...albeit a subtle chord change of only one or two notes at a time, as opposed to extreme chord changes like the (standard chord shapes) of Em-D-C-G-Am-G-D. You get your anchor on part A - and your interest maintained in part B.
Jim
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Good point. There are degrees of chord changes. Subtle ones work, but oft times are jazz related, moving tension notes around. Add to it the Lunasa-esque syncopation- bleck.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by saltcast
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
...yes...I know what you mean - sometime the acc. is too smart-arsed for its own good.....
Jim
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
I don't think we can place the blame on DADGAD-ers, or users of any other tuning - any tuning (within reason) can be used effectively and tastefully or ineffectively and tastelessly. I agree with Saltcast that some guitarists are inclined to use too many chords. But what can be equally frustrating is when a backer fails to notice certain important features in the tune, which could be enhanced with chord changes. Playing a single chord for a whole part, as in Jim's example, or even a whole round of a tune, can be a very effective way of building up musical tension, of it is contrasted with some tasteful chord runs next time round.
There is a tendency among some of the more proficient musicians - tune players as well as backers - to do everything they are capable of all the time. It can even afflict lesser players, such as myself. I think, like acne and health, it is predominantly a disease of the young and subsides with age.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
So we all agree with that genius who said that you don't need to play all the notes, just the right ones. Or as David said, no point in playing three fancy chords when all the tune needs is a D.
I didn't exactly mean "random" chords in my opening post, just that I've been trying to get by with mostly "standard" chords, arpeggios and such, but I often ended up killing the tune altogether. I would like to add a bit of finesse, but books and videos don't work very well for me. So if you know of anyone in Dublin who can steer a student in the right direction for a while, I'd be very much obliged.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by vboyer974
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Dunno, as a melody player, I don't always mind chord changes, even the "unnecessary" ones. All things in moderation, including moderation.
# Posted on November 22nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
homespuntapes.com has a good (probably, all their lessons I've tried are) Irish rythm guitar series
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by sifudave54
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Saltcast hits the preverbal nail squarely with his 'less' (is more) & 'anchor'
Woody Gurthrie thought that even '3-chords' was being flash _suffice to say the American folk legendeer was dead right
On another note, my favourite instrument (for 'tone' and everything) is the uillieann pipes; inspired by a great friend, player, writer and maker Brendan Ring, the thing about this almost totally natural 'synthesiser' is the 'drones' _and that's where the anchor bit comes in
one example being an anchored modal-type D chord on a driving reel, when the 2nd part is 50 / 50 on the so called correct chords (bordering on discordant), but has roughly the same effect as the pipes drones _where the guitarists right hand does the work of the pipers left (taking they're both right-handed)
_it's then Davids 'Musical tension' developes . . .
and i love this and aim towards it
in open C tuneing for my sins
. . . and
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by lisaniska
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Chris Smith has a lot of worthwhile information on this subject in his "Celtic Back-Up" book. He has an excellent list CDs that have a variety of backing approaches that you might listen to.
As sifudave54 mentioned, the Homespun tapes are good starting point.
Myself, I like to get very familiar with the tunes and work out something that provides rhythm and accentuates the melody without getting in the way. Much like an accompanist backs a vocalist. Often, I strive not to do the samething all the way through a tune. Sometimes I drone, sometimes boom-chuck, sometimes cross pick, sometime fingerstyle arpeggios or plucked partial cords, sometimes strumming. Not uncommonly I will play the melody with the band if a backing is not suitable or simply sit out all together. It all depends on the tune. I use a different approach to polkas vs. jigs vs. reels vs. hornpipes. The music itself dictates what to do in a sense. The sense of build during repeats often requires, say, cross picking on the first two passes with strumming on the third.
All in all you need to experiment and get feedback from fellow players and other listeners.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by rob zouk
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
As someone who made this journey into ITM accompaniment without a tutor (I already had reasonable mastery of my instrument outisde of ITM):
One of the things I think is important is to have someone give you feedback. If you can get this from melody players it will be as valuable as a guitar teacher, but again this assumes you have achieved some basic mastery of the instrument.
Ideally keep trying different things in your accompaniment and keep asking the melody players who you accompany, for as much feedback as they can give.
My experience has been that many melody players are either reluctant or not interested in giving feedback to an accompanist but in can be very helpful.
Ask them do they prefer one thing or another rather than ask them to praise/denigrate you. It is confusing at first because some melody players want a pulsing powerful rhythmic accompaniment whereas others want a sparce open style of accompaniment that gives them plenty of space (this is particularily true of accompanying some 'solo' performers).
Anyway it would be a boring world if everyone liked the same thing which is why an accompanist should learn to do their job in as many different ways as possible - keeps everyone from getting bored.
Mentioned above is the comment about a chord that is anchored but when it changes only one or two strategic notes change (ie keep the same bass notes and change an upper note or vice versa).
Above all it is important to learn the tunes and listen, listen listen.
Hope this hasn't just added to the confusion.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Donough
Re: Conversion of a reformed random-chord player (Dublin)
Back to the original question - is there a teacher in Dublin? I would be interested in getting some help on this also.
# Posted on November 23rd 2004 by Cuso