Hey, while I was in a music store in Marin County, I saw these ever so cool pegs for stringed instruments -- they look exactly like normal pegs, but they're geared! They can't stick! They eliminate the need for fine tuners! They were really cool! "Perfection Pegs" they called them, made by Knilling. Anybody know more about them? Did you talk about them while I was gone? I'm going to go do some searching, I think...
For those of you who grind your teeth after battles with poorly-fitted or otherwise troublesome tuning pegs, the Knilling company is marketing an ingenious solution they call the Perfection Peg. These pegs are truly ingenious and entirely functional, incorporating a 1:1/4 planetary gear mechanism within a synthetic housing that looks just like a traditional ebony tuning peg. The Perfection Peg's housing is glued into the pegbox's existing drilled holes using an instrument-friendly heat glue; the peg's handle turns, engaging the internal mechanism and providing the torque that winds and tunes the string. The mechanism is reportedly very stable and reliable, having been tested and used for the last 12 years. My brief test was very convincing, the peg turned smoothly without any indication of slippage or sticking. This peg could be a godsend for school programs that maintain inventories of instruments, and will be very useful in teaching tuning to young players whose previously frustrating battles with sticky or slipping pegs will be eliminated. A set would also be a sensible addition to a customized electric cello setup. Knilling advises professional installation, as the pegs come in left- and right-hand designs.
Call me a traditionalist, but I still like the old fashioned pegs..I've seen these and they look like they could work fine..what will it be next, a carbon fiber fiddle..oh..right...someone already makes one
The 'perfection pegs' work okay for a few months then they start to slip and not work right. They also reak havok on the peg box, because of the way they have to be locked in to the wood. They dig into and scratch the maple (or whatever wood your scroll is made of, hopefuly maple). I used to see these all the time in the shop on student instruments. hmmm... tell you something?
Anyway, if your wood pegs are giving you a problem, take them to a violin shop and let them take a look at them. They have a thing called 'peg drops' for when they are too slippery and 'peg dope' for when they are too sticky. You usually have to get this done when the season changes, or not depending on how much you play, and how much you tune.
If you have a good instrument and are a good player, I wouldn't do it. If you are having trouble tuning your fiddle, take some time and learn & practice it. It's the only way. At least, this is my opinion. Cheers.
If your fiddle stays in tune pretty well, and you don't have to tune it that often, your pegs will stick because you are never turning the pegs. Even if your fiddle sounds in tune, tune it up anyway, or your pegs will always stick.
Pegs are a mystery. I bought my nice old French fiddle (c. 1875) in 1981 from a very good luthier who had restored it. The pegs have always worked very well, winter and summer, in England and in Canada, have never stuck or slipped, and have never required any attention. And for most of that time I've had no fine tuners on the fiddle except for the E string. I've hardly played the poor thing in the last 8 years of so because of injury, but whenever I do or anyone else does, the pegs still work perfectly.
So - it's possible to have pegs that work properly. I have no explanation other than the skill of the luthier who fitted them and maybe the stability of the old wood.
Likely it's the fact that I live in Colorado! Of course, I'm not a very good player, and my instrument is crap, frankly. *grin* But interesting to hear that they're a problem! I thought they'd been tested for 12 years and no problems?
But a new instrument for Christmas -- highly unlikely, but that would be loverly, Chris! ;)
Every reputable luthier I know recommends against them. If nothing else but for the fact that alterations to the pegbox are required. Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with fine tuners, but the add on metal ones are not a good bet. If you want fine tuning, for not a ton more than the Knilling pegs, you can get a Bois D'Harmonie tailpiece. These come in all the woods normally used for fittings and have integrated carbon fiber tuners. They are as light as a tailpiece with no fine tuners. Afterlength is not affected either.
I've tried the Bois D'Harmonie and don't like them. The fine tuners have less tuning range than others, and the $90 USD price tag is inflated. I much prefer the Pusch tailpiece with built-in fine tuners. Only $40 USD, the ebony is very high quality (maybe even better than the BD'H), and the fine tuners are the best available. These tailpieces with integral fine tuners maintain the proper string length, which is critical for good tone and intonation. Add-on fine tuners don't do this.
Zina, having seen and played your fiddle, I'd say your problem with the pegs is due to the peg holes not being reamed right, or the pegs themselves not being tapered right. Either of these can be fixed, but you're ready for a better fiddle, chica!
But two luthiers have checked them and said they were fine, Will!
I honestly don't know when I'm going to be able to afford that new fiddle now, Will -- three months of not working (AND spending money) has well and truly trashed our finances for a bit...my poor long suffering husband!
Just caught up with this thread. I went back to wood tailpieces on both my fiddles a while ago because I found wood gives just that better resonance and response. I don't use micro adjusters, except for the E. I use obligatos on both fiddles, and peg tuning is no problem. I've even tuned helicors in the past from the pegs without difficulty, but I've stopped using those strings now because they're not really satisfactory on either instrument.
As Nfiddle recommended, when tuning from the pegs always give the pegs a good quarter of a turn down and then back up to pitch so as to ensure the peg doesn't acquire a permanent oval set in the peghole. Also, when tuning from the pegs, check the bridge occasionally to make sure its top isn't being pulled towards the fingerboard. The back face of the bridge (facing the tailpiece) should always be exactly vertical to the belly.
I haven't seen the Perfection Pegs, but as a general principle I'd avoid unnecessary weight attached to the pegbox, because that can slightly deaden the overall tone - as will the infamous lefthand "death grip", incidentally.
When I first started on the cello in my early teens I had the lone of a school cello for a few months and this had brass helically geared machine heads attached to the pegbox, a smaller version of that which is still used by double bass players. They're probably still available but I've only seen them twice in recent years and that was on cellos played by elderly persons using gut strings who evidently would have had problems turning from the pegs. Again, such machine heads won't do anything for the tone, and, since they're screwed into place, unacceptable damage is done to the exterior of the pegbox.
Trevor
It won't cost very much to get the pegs properly fitted so that they fit the holes...
Also you could try some Hill Peg Dope...if you can change strings, you can do this...comes in a tube like lipstick...pull out the peg, dress a little on the contact area of the peg..stick it in and wiggle it aound a little..if that doesn't get you going, then a trip to the luthier is in order...
I've been to two different luthiers, and I use peg dope, and all that -- I think it's just that I happen to live in a high country desert. Sticky and stiff.
Zina, I suspect that an important feature of peg dope should be that it has thixotropic properties. Perhaps the formulation should be optimised so that the thixotropy of the dope is correct for the climatic conditions where it is used.
Trevor
I sell perfection pegs to stores and luthiers in North Texas.
The pegs are the same size, shape, and weight as ebony pegs.
They are non-hydroscopic, so Texas' crazy weather is irrelevant.
The gears are made of thru-hardened steel, the shaft is aircraft aluminum, and lube is sealed and permanent.
They do not harm the instrument, and may be replaced w/ conventional pegs.( Note; I've sold perhaps 500 sets, but no one I know has ever gone back to ebony).
Early versions had a bushing which, in a few cases, marred the wood. A redesign has eliminated the problem.
School arts program cutbacks have resulted in shorter (and fewer) classes. Teachers were spending up to half the class time tuning the kiddos' fiddles. No more.
5th graders can now train their ears as they tune their own instruments with only the strength and coordination of a child.
Los Angeles session ace Richard Greene installed a set on his main axe to accommodate the alternate tunings he switches between in performance. He told me that the decision was "life -changing" for him.
They have been on cellos for 12 years, but the miniaturized violin/viola versions are quite new; do not confuse Perfection with the late unlamented Caspari peg.
Interesting to pick up on the Perfection Peg discussion here. I have now had two full years experience with the violin version of these, on lots of instruments. Lots. For anyone who hasn’t actually tried them first-hand, or who assumes they know what they are without really checking them out personally, you’re in for a pleasant shock when you actually do get around to it. For anyone who’s sick of cranking wood against wood, here’s a couple of things to know…
Don’t confuse Perfection pegs with any geared mechanism, or with Caspari pegs, or with anything you’ve seen before.
*They weigh slightly more than ebony, and not enough more to notice when you’re playing.
*The diameter of the pegs is the same as a regular peg, not what anyone would consider oversized. Putting them in the pegbox does NOT require some oversized hole, or screws, or nuts and bolts, or whatever. Anybody who claims that is thinking of something else, not these. The taper is the same as for ebony pegs. Same reamer exactly. The installation is totally reversible, not a problem. I don’t know why you’d want to, but you could.
*With these things, you can toss out the tuners on your tailpiece. They do weigh a ton, they suck up sound and tone like crazy, and they were never meant to be there in the first place. (Check it out, the tuners were add-ons to the fiddle because of steel strings, not what a violin “should” have.)
*About slipping, anything used wrong works wrong, including ebony pegs. The problem with wood pegs is that even when they’re used right, they can work wrong. The only time I’ve ever seen a Perfection peg “slip” is where the player didn’t know he has to apply some pressure (but not very much) towards the pegbox while turning, to engage the gear mechanism sufficiently. The pegs have a nice “feel” to them, so you can regulate the stiffness. I can put my fiddle away for a couple of days, or travel with it, and pretty much don’t have to mess with tuning much, other than for string stretching.
I have to guess that the first time someone came out with an automatic transmission there was a bunch of folks harping about the superiority of stick shifts, saying the automatic didn’t work. Fine, use it if you like it, but I’d rather drive and enjoy it.
Perfection Pegs
Perfection Pegs
Hey, while I was in a music store in Marin County, I saw these ever so cool pegs for stringed instruments -- they look exactly like normal pegs, but they're geared! They can't stick! They eliminate the need for fine tuners! They were really cool! "Perfection Pegs" they called them, made by Knilling. Anybody know more about them? Did you talk about them while I was gone? I'm going to go do some searching, I think...
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Of course, http://www.knilling.com
From http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/asta2003.htm:
For those of you who grind your teeth after battles with poorly-fitted or otherwise troublesome tuning pegs, the Knilling company is marketing an ingenious solution they call the Perfection Peg. These pegs are truly ingenious and entirely functional, incorporating a 1:1/4 planetary gear mechanism within a synthetic housing that looks just like a traditional ebony tuning peg. The Perfection Peg's housing is glued into the pegbox's existing drilled holes using an instrument-friendly heat glue; the peg's handle turns, engaging the internal mechanism and providing the torque that winds and tunes the string. The mechanism is reportedly very stable and reliable, having been tested and used for the last 12 years. My brief test was very convincing, the peg turned smoothly without any indication of slippage or sticking. This peg could be a godsend for school programs that maintain inventories of instruments, and will be very useful in teaching tuning to young players whose previously frustrating battles with sticky or slipping pegs will be eliminated. A set would also be a sensible addition to a customized electric cello setup. Knilling advises professional installation, as the pegs come in left- and right-hand designs.
Also: http://www.islandmusiconline.com/cgi-bin/strings/strings.cgi
Has anyone got a set of these? I'm really thinking I'll have to get a set!!
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Call me a traditionalist, but I still like the old fashioned pegs..I've seen these and they look like they could work fine..what will it be next, a carbon fiber fiddle..oh..right...someone already makes one
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: Perfection Pegs
Yeah, only my pegs have never done anything but stick, no matter what anyone does to them.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Well, then, that just means it's time to buy a new fiddle, Zina. Christmas is coming, after all
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by soft black stars
Re: Perfection Pegs
The 'perfection pegs' work okay for a few months then they start to slip and not work right. They also reak havok on the peg box, because of the way they have to be locked in to the wood. They dig into and scratch the maple (or whatever wood your scroll is made of, hopefuly maple). I used to see these all the time in the shop on student instruments. hmmm... tell you something?
Anyway, if your wood pegs are giving you a problem, take them to a violin shop and let them take a look at them. They have a thing called 'peg drops' for when they are too slippery and 'peg dope' for when they are too sticky. You usually have to get this done when the season changes, or not depending on how much you play, and how much you tune.
If you have a good instrument and are a good player, I wouldn't do it. If you are having trouble tuning your fiddle, take some time and learn & practice it. It's the only way. At least, this is my opinion. Cheers.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by nfiddle
Re: Perfection Pegs
also...
If your fiddle stays in tune pretty well, and you don't have to tune it that often, your pegs will stick because you are never turning the pegs. Even if your fiddle sounds in tune, tune it up anyway, or your pegs will always stick.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by nfiddle
Re: Perfection Pegs
Pegs are a mystery. I bought my nice old French fiddle (c. 1875) in 1981 from a very good luthier who had restored it. The pegs have always worked very well, winter and summer, in England and in Canada, have never stuck or slipped, and have never required any attention. And for most of that time I've had no fine tuners on the fiddle except for the E string. I've hardly played the poor thing in the last 8 years of so because of injury, but whenever I do or anyone else does, the pegs still work perfectly.
So - it's possible to have pegs that work properly. I have no explanation other than the skill of the luthier who fitted them and maybe the stability of the old wood.
# Posted on November 16th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Perfection Pegs
Likely it's the fact that I live in Colorado! Of course, I'm not a very good player, and my instrument is crap, frankly. *grin* But interesting to hear that they're a problem! I thought they'd been tested for 12 years and no problems?
But a new instrument for Christmas -- highly unlikely, but that would be loverly, Chris! ;)
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Every reputable luthier I know recommends against them. If nothing else but for the fact that alterations to the pegbox are required. Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with fine tuners, but the add on metal ones are not a good bet. If you want fine tuning, for not a ton more than the Knilling pegs, you can get a Bois D'Harmonie tailpiece. These come in all the woods normally used for fittings and have integrated carbon fiber tuners. They are as light as a tailpiece with no fine tuners. Afterlength is not affected either.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by meemtp
Re: Perfection Pegs
I've tried the Bois D'Harmonie and don't like them. The fine tuners have less tuning range than others, and the $90 USD price tag is inflated. I much prefer the Pusch tailpiece with built-in fine tuners. Only $40 USD, the ebony is very high quality (maybe even better than the BD'H), and the fine tuners are the best available. These tailpieces with integral fine tuners maintain the proper string length, which is critical for good tone and intonation. Add-on fine tuners don't do this.
Zina, having seen and played your fiddle, I'd say your problem with the pegs is due to the peg holes not being reamed right, or the pegs themselves not being tapered right. Either of these can be fixed, but you're ready for a better fiddle, chica!
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Perfection Pegs
But two luthiers have checked them and said they were fine, Will!
I honestly don't know when I'm going to be able to afford that new fiddle now, Will -- three months of not working (AND spending money) has well and truly trashed our finances for a bit...my poor long suffering husband!
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Just caught up with this thread. I went back to wood tailpieces on both my fiddles a while ago because I found wood gives just that better resonance and response. I don't use micro adjusters, except for the E. I use obligatos on both fiddles, and peg tuning is no problem. I've even tuned helicors in the past from the pegs without difficulty, but I've stopped using those strings now because they're not really satisfactory on either instrument.
As Nfiddle recommended, when tuning from the pegs always give the pegs a good quarter of a turn down and then back up to pitch so as to ensure the peg doesn't acquire a permanent oval set in the peghole. Also, when tuning from the pegs, check the bridge occasionally to make sure its top isn't being pulled towards the fingerboard. The back face of the bridge (facing the tailpiece) should always be exactly vertical to the belly.
I haven't seen the Perfection Pegs, but as a general principle I'd avoid unnecessary weight attached to the pegbox, because that can slightly deaden the overall tone - as will the infamous lefthand "death grip", incidentally.
When I first started on the cello in my early teens I had the lone of a school cello for a few months and this had brass helically geared machine heads attached to the pegbox, a smaller version of that which is still used by double bass players. They're probably still available but I've only seen them twice in recent years and that was on cellos played by elderly persons using gut strings who evidently would have had problems turning from the pegs. Again, such machine heads won't do anything for the tone, and, since they're screwed into place, unacceptable damage is done to the exterior of the pegbox.
Trevor
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Perfection Pegs
sorry, "loan", not "lone"!
Trevor
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Perfection Pegs
It won't cost very much to get the pegs properly fitted so that they fit the holes...
Also you could try some Hill Peg Dope...if you can change strings, you can do this...comes in a tube like lipstick...pull out the peg, dress a little on the contact area of the peg..stick it in and wiggle it aound a little..if that doesn't get you going, then a trip to the luthier is in order...
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: Perfection Pegs
I've been to two different luthiers, and I use peg dope, and all that -- I think it's just that I happen to live in a high country desert.
Sticky and stiff.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Zina, I suspect that an important feature of peg dope should be that it has thixotropic properties. Perhaps the formulation should be optimised so that the thixotropy of the dope is correct for the climatic conditions where it is used.
Trevor
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Perfection Pegs
LOL -- oh, Trev, I adore you.
I need coffee before facing a sentence with so many syllables!
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Perfection Pegs
Ignore the bliddy pegs and just play !
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by BegF
Re: Perfection Pegs
Take BegF's advice and "interesting" sounds will emerge from the fiddle in due course
Trevor
# Posted on November 18th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Perfection Pegs
"Interesting" of course as in the old Chinese curse "May you have an interesting life".
Trevor
# Posted on November 19th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Perfection Pegs
I sell perfection pegs to stores and luthiers in North Texas.
The pegs are the same size, shape, and weight as ebony pegs.
They are non-hydroscopic, so Texas' crazy weather is irrelevant.
The gears are made of thru-hardened steel, the shaft is aircraft aluminum, and lube is sealed and permanent.
They do not harm the instrument, and may be replaced w/ conventional pegs.( Note; I've sold perhaps 500 sets, but no one I know has ever gone back to ebony).
Early versions had a bushing which, in a few cases, marred the wood. A redesign has eliminated the problem.
School arts program cutbacks have resulted in shorter (and fewer) classes. Teachers were spending up to half the class time tuning the kiddos' fiddles. No more.
5th graders can now train their ears as they tune their own instruments with only the strength and coordination of a child.
Los Angeles session ace Richard Greene installed a set on his main axe to accommodate the alternate tunings he switches between in performance. He told me that the decision was "life -changing" for him.
They have been on cellos for 12 years, but the miniaturized violin/viola versions are quite new; do not confuse Perfection with the late unlamented Caspari peg.
# Posted on December 11th 2004 by dobro
Re: Perfection Pegs
Interesting to pick up on the Perfection Peg discussion here. I have now had two full years experience with the violin version of these, on lots of instruments. Lots. For anyone who hasn’t actually tried them first-hand, or who assumes they know what they are without really checking them out personally, you’re in for a pleasant shock when you actually do get around to it. For anyone who’s sick of cranking wood against wood, here’s a couple of things to know…
Don’t confuse Perfection pegs with any geared mechanism, or with Caspari pegs, or with anything you’ve seen before.
*They weigh slightly more than ebony, and not enough more to notice when you’re playing.
*The diameter of the pegs is the same as a regular peg, not what anyone would consider oversized. Putting them in the pegbox does NOT require some oversized hole, or screws, or nuts and bolts, or whatever. Anybody who claims that is thinking of something else, not these. The taper is the same as for ebony pegs. Same reamer exactly. The installation is totally reversible, not a problem. I don’t know why you’d want to, but you could.
*With these things, you can toss out the tuners on your tailpiece. They do weigh a ton, they suck up sound and tone like crazy, and they were never meant to be there in the first place. (Check it out, the tuners were add-ons to the fiddle because of steel strings, not what a violin “should” have.)
*About slipping, anything used wrong works wrong, including ebony pegs. The problem with wood pegs is that even when they’re used right, they can work wrong. The only time I’ve ever seen a Perfection peg “slip” is where the player didn’t know he has to apply some pressure (but not very much) towards the pegbox while turning, to engage the gear mechanism sufficiently. The pegs have a nice “feel” to them, so you can regulate the stiffness. I can put my fiddle away for a couple of days, or travel with it, and pretty much don’t have to mess with tuning much, other than for string stretching.
I have to guess that the first time someone came out with an automatic transmission there was a bunch of folks harping about the superiority of stick shifts, saying the automatic didn’t work. Fine, use it if you like it, but I’d rather drive and enjoy it.
# Posted on December 20th 2004 by openstrings
Re: Perfection Pegs
Just curious if anyone from this thread is still here, and using these pegs and willing to comment further on them.
I am looking at getting a set for a fiddle.
# Posted on February 13th 2007 by philmoz