In a couple of years, will we all be logging on to play tunes together, instead of just talking about 'em?
From BBC World:
On the following specs: "The video is full screen and the music is stereo, and that takes an awful lot of bandwidth – 15.4 megabits per second, to be exact.
"We still have latency in Internet 2 networks. There's an encoding and decoding delay, and there's also a transmission delay. We've got it down in the Internet 2 community to about 100 to 300 milliseconds. However, that's still too long for musicians to play together simultaneously at remote locations. We have to bring that number down a lot farther, we have to get it to, say, a 10 millisecond timeframe so they can start to feel like they're playing in time."
Hmm, even 10 milliseconds latency is gonna be a pain in the arse given the speed of some reels . . . I use a lot of softsynths for recording purposes, many of which operate with 10 ms latency, and these feel 'soggy' to me at standard rock tempos. I couldn't imagine trying to play uptempo ITM with that kind of 'sogginess'.
Anybody here know of ResRocket? It was set up a few years ago to allow bands to play together over the net. I tried it out at the time and found the latency issues involved in playing 'live' (as opposed to just recording online) irritating, but haven't been back lately to see if they've sorted it out.
"start to feel" is about it. i think 100th of a second is still probably enough to make things feel "wrong", especially when it comes to something as rhythmically demanding as ITM. and how am i going to glance up at the other folks to indicate a tune change? i can't see this happening in the next 20 years...
The whole thing seems a bit problematic to me. How large should these sessions be and how many players of each instrument should be involved? That's a big enough issue even in "meatspace" situations. So, either the online sessions might become too cumbersome and unmanageable or you might not be able to enter them if they are "full up".
A better idea is for real sessions to be recorded and available online (similar to the Radio 2 Virtual Session) and we can drop in and out of them as we please. Obviously, we could all take our turn in preparing them before hand.
Channel ops could mute out everyone except for select few, and newbs like me would hear themselves and the select (or run through a checklist of everyone else, selecting who they like maybe).
What? What?! Of course I've thought about it! Wanna hear my holodeck-simulation theories?
Just picture it: playing with Frankie Gavin sitting next to you!
I hope so, John. Also no name dropping, or any talking.
Javelinn? More like pole vaultt to me. There would be absolutely no problem if you're just playing along. It would make no difference. Also is the 10msec delay one-way or two-way? ie is 10msec the total delay where you hear your own playing fed back to you as part of the ensemb...sorry, session?
I personally don't think it would be too bad, and I've played in sloppier real sessions. Also I bet you'd get used to the "drag" effect.
Holodeck simulation? Wow! I once wrote an essay about such speculations - in Spanish - as part of my A-level course - por el futuro. I argued such devices would take the place of the telephone.
One great advantage of this would be "No smoking", if you so wished.
Danny, we're getting ready to ban it in public places in the home country. The Scottish Parliament is at last justifying its existence.
I'd lo0o0o0ve to have something like that, but nothing compares to actually being there -_- but hey, it'd be cool to play with other people on this site and elsewhere!
The speed of sound at sea-level can be taken as 1116 ft per second. A latency of 1/100th of a second would represent 11 ft for the sound to travel in that time, which for a session would mean a fairly tightly-packed crowd of people!
In orchestral, choir or band terms this means that there will always be some sort of sound spread (or latency) in real life, usually bigger than 1/100 second. Church organists for example are used to a massive latency in that the pipes may be at the other end of the church to the console, they take an appreciable time to "speak", especailly the big ones, there are various mechanical delays in the transmission from finger on the key to the pipe starting to sound, and then the sound has to travel back to the organist and in other directions to the congragtion/audience scattered all over the builind, the end result of which is that organists are quite used to playing several measures ahead of the sound they hear.
Zero latency is an artifical construct of the recording studio, mics and speakers, and does not - cannot - exist in real life without such electronic aid. Musicians and audiences have always learnt to live with real-life latencies.
Wow! That sorted the begrudgers, Trevor. THanks for the detailed stuff, there, I intuitively believed there wasn't anything to worry about, now you've proven it.
BTW, after a few pints I have my own latency period anyway
There's no way that you will ever get 10 millisecond ping times over distances.
Let's take an example. You're sitting at home in Seattle, and you decide to hop online to play a session, while your session.org buddy is in London and decides to join you.
The distance from Seattle to London is ~7700km or 7,700,000 meters (or metres if you're the one in London). Light (and electronic data) travel at 299,792,458 meters/sec.
That means that the FASTEST data could get from Seattle to London is about 1/39th of a second or 26 milliseconds. And that's only talking about one way. The round trip is twice that.
And internet data is never routed by a direct line, it hops all over the place trying to get to its destination. And every time it makes a hop, it is going through a routing device that will inevitably slow it down.
Too geeky for you? Sorry ;-P
Now, you're also forgetting the distances from the instruments to the microphones, and the speakers to the other players...
So how many times have you been in a session with people, say, 25 feet apart that couldn't play together?
Having said that, I actually think Rab is right... you could get used to SOME latency. But you'd be missing out on a lot of the visual cues. I think it can be done, but it would probably result in a sloppy session. And you'd be most likely to play with people that were relatively close to you geographically. But if you're there for the craic, who cares?
I hate to pour cold water on this whole thing but as far as I am concerned small sessions really rock. Bigger is not better. Think Jack's ripple theory.
But it would be nice to be able to connect with someone and play to them, they can hear you in their headphones and enjoy playing along. You can hear them in your headphones likewise and play along but the sound is only combining in your head not doing a two way trip.
Not sure if that made any sense??☺? Probably not. Anyway it seems like a lot of trouble for little gain. If you want to play along to an electronic session, just record it and take it home to play along with. I'd miss all that body language stuff that goes on.
And, Pete, the responses will be even slower because the transmission speed you gave for light and electronic data is the ideal measured in a vacuum. Transmission along copper or optical cables, and through the atmosphere to satellites, will be substantially slower than the ideal.
One huge step backwards for Irish music if ever this actually happens. Imagine trying to get everyone in tune, playing the same version of the same tune in a similar style?
I find it really bizarre that so many people (not counting the fascinating geekery which I've followed closely) are, I guess incensed isn' too strong a word, by a silly light-hearted idea that has no real bearing on anything.
to these, I say: well m'lud, things are what people make them. Even things with quantum entanglement information transfer protocols.
I was just at this international music fair in Germany, and talked to the fellow in charge of a new site: <www.ejamming.com> which is giving the beta version of its software for free. A guitarist in the booth in Frankfurt was playing live with a pianist in England, and a drummer in Cologne. Impressive it was. At the moment, their sessions are limited to four members, though....
online sessions!! now that would be nice, since there nearest session from whiere i live is about say, a continent away.
but the time delay would be cumbersome as its important that the timing is accurate.
another way would be to record them on split screen video, i know a webiste that does this, capturing videos with webcams that is. up to four slots are available for each video, i've tried it out but the timing between the different screens has to be adjusted, so that can be a little tricky
Online sessions - nearly there!
Online sessions - nearly there!
In a couple of years, will we all be logging on to play tunes together, instead of just talking about 'em?
From BBC World:
On the following specs: "The video is full screen and the music is stereo, and that takes an awful lot of bandwidth – 15.4 megabits per second, to be exact.
"We still have latency in Internet 2 networks. There's an encoding and decoding delay, and there's also a transmission delay. We've got it down in the Internet 2 community to about 100 to 300 milliseconds. However, that's still too long for musicians to play together simultaneously at remote locations. We have to bring that number down a lot farther, we have to get it to, say, a 10 millisecond timeframe so they can start to feel like they're playing in time."
http://www.bbcworld.com/content/template_clickonline.asp?pageid=666&co_pageid=4
Javelinn. Er, I mean Discuss.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Q
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Hmm, even 10 milliseconds latency is gonna be a pain in the arse given the speed of some reels . . . I use a lot of softsynths for recording purposes, many of which operate with 10 ms latency, and these feel 'soggy' to me at standard rock tempos. I couldn't imagine trying to play uptempo ITM with that kind of 'sogginess'.
Anybody here know of ResRocket? It was set up a few years ago to allow bands to play together over the net. I tried it out at the time and found the latency issues involved in playing 'live' (as opposed to just recording online) irritating, but haven't been back lately to see if they've sorted it out.
K.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by kidcharlemagne
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Sounds like no more treking across the country to band rehearsals. This could save me seroius cash!
Cule.
Aleekz
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Kazoo and Bones Player
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
"start to feel" is about it. i think 100th of a second is still probably enough to make things feel "wrong", especially when it comes to something as rhythmically demanding as ITM. and how am i going to glance up at the other folks to indicate a tune change? i can't see this happening in the next 20 years...
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by rog
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Yeah! 20 years - like I said, nearly there
(I'd like to think that my chops might be up to scratch by then, though)
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Q
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
The whole thing seems a bit problematic to me. How large should these sessions be and how many players of each instrument should be involved? That's a big enough issue even in "meatspace" situations. So, either the online sessions might become too cumbersome and unmanageable or you might not be able to enter them if they are "full up".
A better idea is for real sessions to be recorded and available online (similar to the Radio 2 Virtual Session) and we can drop in and out of them as we please. Obviously, we could all take our turn in preparing them before hand.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
How do we keep the session to under 1,000 people playing?
What if someone wants to play (say) a Tuba in the session and doesn't know any tunes?
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
If you're caught noodling or learning tunes on the fly, does the session host disconnect you?
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Channel ops could mute out everyone except for select few, and newbs like me would hear themselves and the select (or run through a checklist of everyone else, selecting who they like maybe).
What? What?! Of course I've thought about it! Wanna hear my holodeck-simulation theories?
Just picture it: playing with Frankie Gavin sitting next to you!
(okay, okay, back to my comic books)
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Q
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
I hope so, John. Also no name dropping, or any talking.
Javelinn? More like pole vaultt to me. There would be absolutely no problem if you're just playing along. It would make no difference. Also is the 10msec delay one-way or two-way? ie is 10msec the total delay where you hear your own playing fed back to you as part of the ensemb...sorry, session?
I personally don't think it would be too bad, and I've played in sloppier real sessions. Also I bet you'd get used to the "drag" effect.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Holodeck simulation? Wow! I once wrote an essay about such speculations - in Spanish - as part of my A-level course - por el futuro. I argued such devices would take the place of the telephone.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
One great advantage of this would be "No smoking", if you so wished.
Danny, we're getting ready to ban it in public places in the home country. The Scottish Parliament is at last justifying its existence.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
They did well for students also. All Ken seems to have done down here is bring in The Congestion charge and slightly cheaper bus fares...oops hijack!
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
No worries Danny, I reckon it's run it's course.
I wish they'd ban smoking in pubs here already.
'S funny. I was a pack-a-day man until I fell in with the motley session crew down here. Now it's maybe 2 a week.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Q
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
I'd lo0o0o0ve to have something like that, but nothing compares to actually being there -_- but hey, it'd be cool to play with other people on this site and elsewhere!
Cheers and free period,
Armand
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by armandale
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Ersatz sessions? Gargh!
Spare me. TV is bad enough.
*Sighs and goes back to highly unloved computer-based work...*
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by sara g
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
The speed of sound at sea-level can be taken as 1116 ft per second. A latency of 1/100th of a second would represent 11 ft for the sound to travel in that time, which for a session would mean a fairly tightly-packed crowd of people!
In orchestral, choir or band terms this means that there will always be some sort of sound spread (or latency) in real life, usually bigger than 1/100 second. Church organists for example are used to a massive latency in that the pipes may be at the other end of the church to the console, they take an appreciable time to "speak", especailly the big ones, there are various mechanical delays in the transmission from finger on the key to the pipe starting to sound, and then the sound has to travel back to the organist and in other directions to the congragtion/audience scattered all over the builind, the end result of which is that organists are quite used to playing several measures ahead of the sound they hear.
Zero latency is an artifical construct of the recording studio, mics and speakers, and does not - cannot - exist in real life without such electronic aid. Musicians and audiences have always learnt to live with real-life latencies.
Trevor
# Posted on November 11th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Wow! That sorted the begrudgers, Trevor. THanks for the detailed stuff, there, I intuitively believed there wasn't anything to worry about, now you've proven it.
BTW, after a few pints I have my own latency period anyway
:~}
# Posted on November 11th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
There's no way that you will ever get 10 millisecond ping times over distances.
Let's take an example. You're sitting at home in Seattle, and you decide to hop online to play a session, while your session.org buddy is in London and decides to join you.
The distance from Seattle to London is ~7700km or 7,700,000 meters (or metres if you're the one in London). Light (and electronic data) travel at 299,792,458 meters/sec.
That means that the FASTEST data could get from Seattle to London is about 1/39th of a second or 26 milliseconds. And that's only talking about one way. The round trip is twice that.
And internet data is never routed by a direct line, it hops all over the place trying to get to its destination. And every time it makes a hop, it is going through a routing device that will inevitably slow it down.
Too geeky for you? Sorry ;-P
Now, you're also forgetting the distances from the instruments to the microphones, and the speakers to the other players...
So how many times have you been in a session with people, say, 25 feet apart that couldn't play together?
Having said that, I actually think Rab is right... you could get used to SOME latency. But you'd be missing out on a lot of the visual cues. I think it can be done, but it would probably result in a sloppy session. And you'd be most likely to play with people that were relatively close to you geographically. But if you're there for the craic, who cares?
Pete
# Posted on November 11th 2004 by Reverend
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
I hate to pour cold water on this whole thing but as far as I am concerned small sessions really rock. Bigger is not better. Think Jack's ripple theory.
But it would be nice to be able to connect with someone and play to them, they can hear you in their headphones and enjoy playing along. You can hear them in your headphones likewise and play along but the sound is only combining in your head not doing a two way trip.
Not sure if that made any sense??☺? Probably not. Anyway it seems like a lot of trouble for little gain. If you want to play along to an electronic session, just record it and take it home to play along with. I'd miss all that body language stuff that goes on.
# Posted on November 11th 2004 by Donough
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
And, Pete, the responses will be even slower because the transmission speed you gave for light and electronic data is the ideal measured in a vacuum. Transmission along copper or optical cables, and through the atmosphere to satellites, will be substantially slower than the ideal.
Trevor
# Posted on November 12th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
One huge step backwards for Irish music if ever this actually happens. Imagine trying to get everyone in tune, playing the same version of the same tune in a similar style?
# Posted on November 12th 2004 by compaqjohn
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Sounds rather like just another session to me.
I find it really bizarre that so many people (not counting the fascinating geekery which I've followed closely) are, I guess incensed isn' too strong a word, by a silly light-hearted idea that has no real bearing on anything.
to these, I say: well m'lud, things are what people make them. Even things with quantum entanglement information transfer protocols.
# Posted on November 12th 2004 by Q
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Oh, now see? Trevor, you're just trying to out-geek me now... you probably don't want to start that game
(But you're right, of course)
Pete
# Posted on November 13th 2004 by Reverend
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
Q - so you've finally come out of the cupboard and come clean about your geekishness. why didn't you just say so in the first place?
I'm a Geek and Proud.
I may not be the world's greatest geek, but I am wot a yam.
# Posted on November 13th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
I was just at this international music fair in Germany, and talked to the fellow in charge of a new site: <www.ejamming.com> which is giving the beta version of its software for free. A guitarist in the booth in Frankfurt was playing live with a pianist in England, and a drummer in Cologne. Impressive it was. At the moment, their sessions are limited to four members, though....
# Posted on May 1st 2007 by King_Toe
Re: Online sessions - nearly there!
online sessions!! now that would be nice, since there nearest session from whiere i live is about say, a continent away.
but the time delay would be cumbersome as its important that the timing is accurate.
another way would be to record them on split screen video, i know a webiste that does this, capturing videos with webcams that is. up to four slots are available for each video, i've tried it out but the timing between the different screens has to be adjusted, so that can be a little tricky
# Posted on July 18th 2008 by chansherly212