I have only recently 'distilled' the pattern for tonguing jigs which many players seem to use and which gives a lovely 'bounce' to the tune.
The players I listen to seem to use the pattern
-TK -TK | -TK -TK
That is, tongue the second and third notes of each group of three.
Obviously this is not used exclusively because that would make any rendition highly tedious but it does seem a basis for establishing the 'bounce' of the jig by allowing the player to lean a little into the first note of each group of three and cut short the second note just fractionally.
Does anyone have any tonguing patterns which work particularly well for reels?
Tongue? One does not tongue. One taps, pats, cuts and uses glottal stops. Unless one is Kevin Crawford, in which case one might tongue. One might even triple tongue if one were Kevin Crawford.
At least, that's one school of thought. But that's not what you asked... I don't use patterns, that I know of - usually I only tongue to kick off the odd phrase, or to help an octave jump. Not sure it's such a good idea falling into a habit of a set pattern.
Sometimes to emphasise a beat you can overblow the note slightly, or puff it Desi Wilkinson-style, or cut or pat it. Or even leave it out!
A few months ago I played around with tonguing to see what I could find. Why should it just be Ta and Ka (and ga and da), I wondered. What about Sa, and Qua, and Ja. And La, ra, fa, etc. It was enormous fun, especially when branching out into different vowels and combinations... but ultimately not particularly useful for choonz.
Probably depends what you play. Are you a whistle player, a flautist, perhaps a trombonist (??!!?) or are you just a fiddler who wants to click along to the tune?
I am learning the whistle so for arguments sake lets say that is what you mean. I would say it is very dependant on the tune and also the style you are aiming for. In particular if you are cutting the note or doing a roll or something that requires emphasis then you are more likely to tongue (or maybe even double or triple tongue - particularly on a C# as there is not much else in the way of ornamentation that can be done here).
Err... ermm... I should clearly stop here as I am somewhat out of my depth.
Sorry Q. Looks like we cross posted. I am sure I remember from my classical flute lessons when I was young having to tongue - but then again what would classical musicians know?
It seems to very much depend on the style. There is probably more tonguing in a Scottish style than in Irish whistle playing (or is that the other way round?). 6/8 Pipe marches for example should definately have lots of cuts and tonguing to give them a real snap or else they will just end up sounding like a jig.
I don't know too much about this myself - whistle-wise, at least. I've always used the same approach from flute to whistle, which is pretty tongue-free, but I've never sound like the good whistlers do.
The no-tonguing on flute is only an Irish thing AFAIK, I definitely had to tongue in classical... but also it's not all-Irish; depends really what style you're playing in. Conal O'Grada has apoplectic fits when his students tongue, but on the other side of the pond Grey Larsen encourages it.
I think the style I play in is informed a lot by the players who play piper-style; after all cuts and taps are the only way you can seperate notes on the Uillean pipes...
can I refer you to a recent discussion on fiddle bowing paterns http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4823
There's a lot of esoteric guff towards the end, but basically, everything that was said about changing bow direction can apply to flute playing.
So instead of 'Down Up Up Up Down', for example, we should read 'suck blow blow blow suck' ?
No way, I refuse to model this thread on a fiddle thread! We fluters get a raw deal as it is from you stringy types. I demand that we get our own thread!
"cuts and taps are the only way you can seperate notes on the Uillean pipes..."
That's BS, that is true for warpipes GHB and so on , but not for the UP.
Upchanter can be closed and so staccato playing is possible.
Closing the chanter for a very short time is one of the possibilities to seperate and/or embellish notes and isn't that kind of equivalent to tonguing?
That thread is largely about embouchure and volume. This thread appears to be more about ornamentation and technique. Plus we still have not heard if John Boniface is a flautist or a whistle player, etc. I personally would like to see a thread on the different ornamentation techniques that people use.
Thanks for the link though. Interesting reading as always.
Yup most whistle players certainly do tongue. The scheme John Boniface mentions is used by a lot of whistlers for jigs.
What's interesting about that device, in whistling, is the fact that two successive notes. As John says this allows you to shorten the first of the two tongued notes, using the tongue to cut it short, and give great lift to your phrase. Many good whistle players doing this to great effect in reels.
But I really think it should be done instinctively, where the tune wants you to do it, and not applied as a learned "pattern." Let the melody have its head and don't try to become a rhythm box.
Yes I appreciate that one style of playing involves little tonguing whatsoever.
To rephrase my question:
I have noticed that, when tonguing is used extensively by whistle players, it seems often to fall into the pattern -TK -TK. Are there any similar patterns anyone has noticed when playing reels.
Brother Steve is absolutely correct of course that arbitrarily applying rules will lead to stagnant playing, each tune demands its own interpretation.
I wonder what you mean, Brother Steve, when you mention that "Many good whistle players do this to great effect in reels"? What do they do? Cut short the first of two adjacent notes? If so, is there any pattern to their selection of which pair of notes? I can imagine perhaps, in a bar of 8 notes, cutting short the 4th and emphasising the 5th to illustrate the two halves of the bar. Is this what you mean?
John - sorry for the typing mistakes in my earlier post. What I meant is that you will often notice two tongued notes in succession, rather than just one on its own, and yes I think the purpose is often to shorten the first.
I don't know if the emphasis that these players are (unconsciously, I'm certain of that) trying to produce would be anything as neat as the halves of a bar.
I'm really loath to look for patterns in this kind of thing, maybe out of laziness but more I think out of a reluctance to codify something that I think is better left uncodified.
Now I have tried (with limited success I have to admit) to get whistle students doing the slur-tongue-tongue thing in jigs, but as regards the phrasing of reels, I don't really want to go there.
The only pattern-type things in reels I can think of offhand are
a) whether you do or do not tongue an "off-beat roll" (e.g. B.E~E2 or BE.~E2, where the dot means tongue the note - I prefer the first example or just no tonguing at all)
and b) what you do with "rocking pedal figures" (you can get a nice fiddle-like effect by tonguing the pedal note e.g. B2e.Bf.Be, again where the dot indicates a tongue).
HTH
Steve
PS Personally I don't go in for this K business at all. T does me fine all the way.
do not tongue in irish music. for double notes you can, and t hats about it. yes, cut and tap double notes. but if you cut and tap every single thing then it will sound just as tedious as tongueing everything. mix it up. now, once you get the feel of it you can use tongueing as an ornamentation. which sounds weird, because we usually think of ornamentation only as taps, cuts, rolls, etc. but tongueing, vibrato, finger vibrato, etc are considered ornamentation when they're used to add. if they are used as a rule, like some of them are in classical, they are not ornamentation, they are assumed.
examples of tongueing ornamentation would be syncopated tongueing in the middle of a roll or cut, etc. but that is very progressive and one should learn to play like that as an occasional exception not constantly.
in classical music, it is written exactly when you must tongue . always. if it is not slurred then you tongue it. they even stop slurs and start them up when they want you to tongue it. i have just recently started to get the hang of it. i prefer tongueing when i feel like it, not when the paper tells me, but to be a good classical player, you have to play whats written! of course... if you wanted to be technical, historically you were good if you knew how to do baroque ornamentation, but no one does that anymore.
yes, baroque music was like irish music, with its unwritten ornamentation and styles. but alas... it is gone for now. it's slowly making a come back, tho. but only in isolated instances.
Q - you are right. that is where avante garde / modern playing comes in. strange tongueing, techniques, etc. in my compositions i havent messed too much with tongueing, i only like to tongue once a phrase; i have too much irish in me! it would give my playing a nice legato feel, but its contrasted out by my harsh irish tone. even tho i hate myself for it, i use vibrato when i play my moden compositions (not! for irish, ever). i do mess with weird tongueings i guess. but i prefer embochoure techniques. like this warble/shaking thing i do that almost sounds like tongue rolling but harsher. its the only thing that i can do to make my flut sound mad! i also like to do finger vibrato techniques, but more akin to cracking tropical tremolo than finger vibrato.
as far as gettin swing into your music... (sorry about the tangent) work on your air support. the way to use air support for accenting, is to push your stomach out / tense it. you might feel stupid and like you're convulsing, haha, but its right (as longas you're not flailing or anything).
here's a better description of accenting with your air instead of your tongue:
As a classical trained flute player, i find it hard not to tongue when i "try" to play ITM.
But isn't the reason that there is no tonguing tradition in ITM that the players were mostly to drunk to still use theire tongue ???
( after a couple of guiness, my tongue feels like leather ).
Steve - The K (or G) can be very useful, as demonstrated to me in my whistle class on Monday. It is faster!! D and G moves your tongue in different ways. D comes from the front of your tongue, G comes from the back. Try it with some triple tonguing DGD is faster than DDD and easier too.
Ah yes Alistair, a K or G is indeed useful in triple-tonguing - although some of the best exponents of the art use a lilting motion (diddle-dee) instead. (Even Michael Gill ought to approve of that.)
There are some great clips of whistling on there, and I noted a few examples of tonguing two successive notes on there, mainly I think in the transcriptions of Tommy McCarthy and Jim Donaghue.
petercnm - tongueing just sounds redundant. and you dont tongue on the pipes. its just the style. just like how french classical style has vibrato and english (and everywhere else) didnt have vibrato. but... within this century everyone is copying the french. so if you play without vibrato you are a bad flutist in classical music, even though it used to be just the opposite.
On the whistle, I find, for some reason, that jigs lend themselves better to tonguing 'patterns' (such as that which John describes in his initial post - all though I would use all 'T's rather than 'T's and 'K's) than reels do.
In reels, I tend to use tonguing to accent particular notes in a tune that 'want' to be accented. The may be different notes each time I play the tune. The following, however, are a few instances where I might often use tonguing:
i. the first note of a phrase;
ii. on a staccato note before a breathing pause;
iii. at the beginning of a short roll;
iv. all the notes in a phrase such as BGdG eGdG;
v. on a long roll after an accented quaver (1/8-note), e.g. d ~*f3 a ~*f3 (*tongued note)
None of these are 'rules', just habits of mine, which I adhere to some of the time. Admittedly, in some instances (such as iii. and iv.) tonguing effectively disguises sloppy fingering - I take my hat off to pipers, who can maintain a steady rhythm using only their fingers (presumably, stopping the chanter on the knee with accurate timing is considerably more difficult than tonguing - probably more difficult also than cutting or tapping).
Some whistle players make more of a feature of tonguing. Josie McDermott, allegedly, learned to triple tongue because he had a 'lazy hand' and could not move his fingers quickly enogh to roll in the conventional way. He subsequently learned to roll, and used a combination of the two forms of ornamentation, in his flute playing, as well as on whistle. Sean Ryan uses about as much tonguing as is humanly possible, and is very sparing with finger ornamentation. Personally, I can only do triple tonguing in the privacy of my own home, after a strong cup of coffee.
Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
I have only recently 'distilled' the pattern for tonguing jigs which many players seem to use and which gives a lovely 'bounce' to the tune.
The players I listen to seem to use the pattern
-TK -TK | -TK -TK
That is, tongue the second and third notes of each group of three.
Obviously this is not used exclusively because that would make any rendition highly tedious but it does seem a basis for establishing the 'bounce' of the jig by allowing the player to lean a little into the first note of each group of three and cut short the second note just fractionally.
Does anyone have any tonguing patterns which work particularly well for reels?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by john.boniface
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Tongue? One does not tongue. One taps, pats, cuts and uses glottal stops. Unless one is Kevin Crawford, in which case one might tongue. One might even triple tongue if one were Kevin Crawford.
At least, that's one school of thought. But that's not what you asked... I don't use patterns, that I know of - usually I only tongue to kick off the odd phrase, or to help an octave jump. Not sure it's such a good idea falling into a habit of a set pattern.
Sometimes to emphasise a beat you can overblow the note slightly, or puff it Desi Wilkinson-style, or cut or pat it. Or even leave it out!
A few months ago I played around with tonguing to see what I could find. Why should it just be Ta and Ka (and ga and da), I wondered. What about Sa, and Qua, and Ja. And La, ra, fa, etc. It was enormous fun, especially when branching out into different vowels and combinations... but ultimately not particularly useful for choonz.
Er, was that any help?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Probably depends what you play. Are you a whistle player, a flautist, perhaps a trombonist (??!!?) or are you just a fiddler who wants to click along to the tune?
I am learning the whistle so for arguments sake lets say that is what you mean. I would say it is very dependant on the tune and also the style you are aiming for. In particular if you are cutting the note or doing a roll or something that requires emphasis then you are more likely to tongue (or maybe even double or triple tongue - particularly on a C# as there is not much else in the way of ornamentation that can be done here).
Err... ermm... I should clearly stop here as I am somewhat out of my depth.
Thanks,
Alistair
P.S. Isn't it DG rather than TK
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Oh yeah, whistle-playes tongue don't they? Sorry, I forgot
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Sorry Q. Looks like we cross posted. I am sure I remember from my classical flute lessons when I was young having to tongue - but then again what would classical musicians know?
It seems to very much depend on the style. There is probably more tonguing in a Scottish style than in Irish whistle playing (or is that the other way round?). 6/8 Pipe marches for example should definately have lots of cuts and tonguing to give them a real snap or else they will just end up sounding like a jig.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
I don't know too much about this myself - whistle-wise, at least. I've always used the same approach from flute to whistle, which is pretty tongue-free, but I've never sound like the good whistlers do.
The no-tonguing on flute is only an Irish thing AFAIK, I definitely had to tongue in classical... but also it's not all-Irish; depends really what style you're playing in. Conal O'Grada has apoplectic fits when his students tongue, but on the other side of the pond Grey Larsen encourages it.
I think the style I play in is informed a lot by the players who play piper-style; after all cuts and taps are the only way you can seperate notes on the Uillean pipes...
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
can I refer you to a recent discussion on fiddle bowing paterns
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4823
There's a lot of esoteric guff towards the end, but basically, everything that was said about changing bow direction can apply to flute playing.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
So instead of 'Down Up Up Up Down', for example, we should read 'suck blow blow blow suck' ?
No way, I refuse to model this thread on a fiddle thread! We fluters get a raw deal as it is from you stringy types. I demand that we get our own thread!
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
OK, have it. But remember, James Galway tongues, and can't play diddley squat
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by ...
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
"cuts and taps are the only way you can seperate notes on the Uillean pipes..."
That's BS, that is true for warpipes GHB and so on , but not for the UP.
Upchanter can be closed and so staccato playing is possible.
Closing the chanter for a very short time is one of the possibilities to seperate and/or embellish notes and isn't that kind of equivalent to tonguing?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by swisspiper
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
*shudder*
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Er, not at what you said urs! To what you said, I say: oh. whoops. Do UP players use this technique a lot then?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Please, Michael, there is no need to bring his name in to this thread.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Identify the tune:
dgd- d-dgd d-dg dggdd ---- --dg -dg- dgdg d
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Here is the flute thread http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3753
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by harry
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
That thread is largely about embouchure and volume. This thread appears to be more about ornamentation and technique. Plus we still have not heard if John Boniface is a flautist or a whistle player, etc. I personally would like to see a thread on the different ornamentation techniques that people use.
Thanks for the link though. Interesting reading as always.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Yup most whistle players certainly do tongue. The scheme John Boniface mentions is used by a lot of whistlers for jigs.
What's interesting about that device, in whistling, is the fact that two successive notes. As John says this allows you to shorten the first of the two tongued notes, using the tongue to cut it short, and give great lift to your phrase. Many good whistle players doing this to great effect in reels.
But I really think it should be done instinctively, where the tune wants you to do it, and not applied as a learned "pattern." Let the melody have its head and don't try to become a rhythm box.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
I play whistle, for the record.
Yes I appreciate that one style of playing involves little tonguing whatsoever.
To rephrase my question:
I have noticed that, when tonguing is used extensively by whistle players, it seems often to fall into the pattern -TK -TK. Are there any similar patterns anyone has noticed when playing reels.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by john.boniface
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
On the subject of instinct.
Brother Steve is absolutely correct of course that arbitrarily applying rules will lead to stagnant playing, each tune demands its own interpretation.
I wonder what you mean, Brother Steve, when you mention that "Many good whistle players do this to great effect in reels"? What do they do? Cut short the first of two adjacent notes? If so, is there any pattern to their selection of which pair of notes? I can imagine perhaps, in a bar of 8 notes, cutting short the 4th and emphasising the 5th to illustrate the two halves of the bar. Is this what you mean?
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by john.boniface
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
John - sorry for the typing mistakes in my earlier post. What I meant is that you will often notice two tongued notes in succession, rather than just one on its own, and yes I think the purpose is often to shorten the first.
I don't know if the emphasis that these players are (unconsciously, I'm certain of that) trying to produce would be anything as neat as the halves of a bar.
I'm really loath to look for patterns in this kind of thing, maybe out of laziness but more I think out of a reluctance to codify something that I think is better left uncodified.
Now I have tried (with limited success I have to admit) to get whistle students doing the slur-tongue-tongue thing in jigs, but as regards the phrasing of reels, I don't really want to go there.
The only pattern-type things in reels I can think of offhand are
a) whether you do or do not tongue an "off-beat roll" (e.g. B.E~E2 or BE.~E2, where the dot means tongue the note - I prefer the first example or just no tonguing at all)
and b) what you do with "rocking pedal figures" (you can get a nice fiddle-like effect by tonguing the pedal note e.g. B2e.Bf.Be, again where the dot indicates a tongue).
HTH
Steve
PS Personally I don't go in for this K business at all. T does me fine all the way.
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
do not tongue in irish music. for double notes you can, and t hats about it. yes, cut and tap double notes. but if you cut and tap every single thing then it will sound just as tedious as tongueing everything. mix it up. now, once you get the feel of it you can use tongueing as an ornamentation. which sounds weird, because we usually think of ornamentation only as taps, cuts, rolls, etc. but tongueing, vibrato, finger vibrato, etc are considered ornamentation when they're used to add. if they are used as a rule, like some of them are in classical, they are not ornamentation, they are assumed.
examples of tongueing ornamentation would be syncopated tongueing in the middle of a roll or cut, etc. but that is very progressive and one should learn to play like that as an occasional exception not constantly.
in classical music, it is written exactly when you must tongue . always. if it is not slurred then you tongue it. they even stop slurs and start them up when they want you to tongue it. i have just recently started to get the hang of it. i prefer tongueing when i feel like it, not when the paper tells me, but to be a good classical player, you have to play whats written! of course... if you wanted to be technical, historically you were good if you knew how to do baroque ornamentation, but no one does that anymore.
yes, baroque music was like irish music, with its unwritten ornamentation and styles. but alas... it is gone for now. it's slowly making a come back, tho. but only in isolated instances.
Q - you are right. that is where avante garde / modern playing comes in. strange tongueing, techniques, etc. in my compositions i havent messed too much with tongueing, i only like to tongue once a phrase; i have too much irish in me! it would give my playing a nice legato feel, but its contrasted out by my harsh irish tone. even tho i hate myself for it, i use vibrato when i play my moden compositions (not! for irish, ever). i do mess with weird tongueings i guess. but i prefer embochoure techniques. like this warble/shaking thing i do that almost sounds like tongue rolling but harsher. its the only thing that i can do to make my flut sound mad! i also like to do finger vibrato techniques, but more akin to cracking tropical tremolo than finger vibrato.
as far as gettin swing into your music... (sorry about the tangent) work on your air support. the way to use air support for accenting, is to push your stomach out / tense it. you might feel stupid and like you're convulsing, haha, but its right (as longas you're not flailing or anything).
here's a better description of accenting with your air instead of your tongue:
http://skiphealy.com/frames/fr_learn.htm
# Posted on November 9th 2004 by daiv
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
As a classical trained flute player, i find it hard not to tongue when i "try" to play ITM.
But isn't the reason that there is no tonguing tradition in ITM that the players were mostly to drunk to still use theire tongue ???
( after a couple of guiness, my tongue feels like leather ).
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by petercnm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Thanks Jim. I will give it a go.
Steve - The K (or G) can be very useful, as demonstrated to me in my whistle class on Monday. It is faster!! D and G moves your tongue in different ways. D comes from the front of your tongue, G comes from the back. Try it with some triple tonguing DGD is faster than DDD and easier too.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Ah yes Alistair, a K or G is indeed useful in triple-tonguing - although some of the best exponents of the art use a lilting motion (diddle-dee) instead. (Even Michael Gill ought to approve of that.)
John B - have you seen the transcriptions page that a few of us put a couple of years ago? It's at http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html
There are some great clips of whistling on there, and I noted a few examples of tonguing two successive notes on there, mainly I think in the transcriptions of Tommy McCarthy and Jim Donaghue.
Cheers
S
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
Hey, I learned Johnny Cope off there way back when. Nice one, Steve!
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by Q
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
petercnm - tongueing just sounds redundant. and you dont tongue on the pipes. its just the style. just like how french classical style has vibrato and english (and everywhere else) didnt have vibrato. but... within this century everyone is copying the french. so if you play without vibrato you are a bad flutist in classical music, even though it used to be just the opposite.
in short, just cuz!
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by daiv
Re: Tonguing patterns for jigs and reels
On the whistle, I find, for some reason, that jigs lend themselves better to tonguing 'patterns' (such as that which John describes in his initial post - all though I would use all 'T's rather than 'T's and 'K's) than reels do.
In reels, I tend to use tonguing to accent particular notes in a tune that 'want' to be accented. The may be different notes each time I play the tune. The following, however, are a few instances where I might often use tonguing:
i. the first note of a phrase;
ii. on a staccato note before a breathing pause;
iii. at the beginning of a short roll;
iv. all the notes in a phrase such as BGdG eGdG;
v. on a long roll after an accented quaver (1/8-note), e.g. d ~*f3 a ~*f3 (*tongued note)
None of these are 'rules', just habits of mine, which I adhere to some of the time. Admittedly, in some instances (such as iii. and iv.) tonguing effectively disguises sloppy fingering - I take my hat off to pipers, who can maintain a steady rhythm using only their fingers (presumably, stopping the chanter on the knee with accurate timing is considerably more difficult than tonguing - probably more difficult also than cutting or tapping).
Some whistle players make more of a feature of tonguing. Josie McDermott, allegedly, learned to triple tongue because he had a 'lazy hand' and could not move his fingers quickly enogh to roll in the conventional way. He subsequently learned to roll, and used a combination of the two forms of ornamentation, in his flute playing, as well as on whistle. Sean Ryan uses about as much tonguing as is humanly possible, and is very sparing with finger ornamentation. Personally, I can only do triple tonguing in the privacy of my own home, after a strong cup of coffee.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig