I would like to thank all Feis musicians who play for dancers-
At times for €200 for 8 to 10 hours before overtime is mentioned.
These musicians are taken for granted, and oft times never appreciated..
i.e. they play too fast or they play too slow..
but never right on time....
alla dancers/teachers
I recently have had friends who have retired from paying feiseanna because their talents are not appreciated by dance organizations..
Anyone any comments to support Feis musicians?
I totally feel your pain. Unfortunately, there seem to be few productive options in such situations. You can grin and bear it, stipulate contractual clauses beforehand, or get the hell out of the biz...
I tend towards the first (and occasionally, when protocol allows, the second) though my grin's not too convincing. The amount I get paid fluctuates wildly depending on the situation. Last week I did a rehearsal and two 40 minute sets for CDN$650 which is good money to me. Not that I've got any such work at the moment but the CBC - not to mention other commercial recording organizations - hires muse-ohs for upwards of CDN$1-3000 a day. Tomorrow I have a 5 or 6 hour call for CDN$100 which is way too little in my opinion. But. It's a gig and getting paid to play is better than a kick in the head. If I had to 9-5 it I think I'd do myself in!
I do think that 200 Euros is way low for a 10 hour call. Sigh. I dunno if my relatively jaded perspective is the kind of support you were looking for but, nonetheless, ...
Oh yeah, and playing for dancers IS often un-rewarding! I too have spent a fair number of under-appreciated hours slogging away for the kickers and it can really be a drag!
I have been to nine feisianna this year, most all of the players have been pretty good. Some have been just great.
The musicians seem to be treated as well as anyone else at the feis, it is a huge job to pull one off. Other than the judges who are also paid to sit on their behind all day, the rest of the feis is run by suffering volunteers.
Some of the parents get pretty testy at times but not to the judges or musicians. I believe the rule is that the judges and musicians are not to be approached.
It is an unusual gig....lots of playing. I would imagine that after one gig like that a player can tell if he is up for another.
I play ITM and I go to dancing feiseanna (my daughter dances) but I would never aspire to play for a dancing competition.
The primary pre-requisite seems to be perfect timing. For that, a machine is better than a musician. Which is probably why some of the successful feis musicians use a keyboard where the rhythm track can be perfectly pre-programmed.
That is not to say that I don't get a lot of pleasure out of playing a set or two for dancers. When we do a concert I often drag my daughter and a couple of her friends out to do a dance for us (and of course the audience). Playing for set-dancers is also a lot of fun.
Perhaps the reason dancers often don't appreciate the musicians and treat them like machines is that they are trained to the accompaniment of recorded music - often played 'mechanically' to a programmed rhythm track. If they were taught to dance to real musicians, who play in strict time but never quite the same twice, then perhaps they would learn to respond to their nuances rather than simply use them as a metronome, and appreciate the skill and humanity that goes into their playing.
Unfortunately, good musicians cost good money, whilst a CD costs a tenner.
Practicing to CD does create a problem at my house.
When we play a jig or reel for the girls to dance, sometimes they will look over at us in total scorn if they feel the speed is a hair over their perceived "correct" speed.
I won't take it at home, I jump on them like a chicken on a junebug. Dance, damn you! Pay attention and get the hell with it.
Feis musicians in these parts are treated very well. They have to be, since there's considered to be a great shortage of them. The Commission has been known to refuse to grant an "official" feis in a particular city because it clashes with a previously arranged feis elsewhere, and the drain on the available pool of musicians would be too much.
Competition dancers generally have little enough interest in the musicians and what they are doing, and would probably be as happy (or maybe even happier) with a CD. For the dancers and most parents, feises are really sporting, not artistic events. I'm sure the teachers and adjudicators see it differently.
Fair play to the musicians. They are unequalled for stamina and dedication. That's hard-earned money, alright.
If I thought they were for real, I would play for nothing. For real to me means accomplished
dancers who respect and love the music and would not embarass them selves or me. Fat chance of that ever happening, especially here in WV, where I sometimes play for contradance, but don't like it much. WB
I play PA for feis dance competitions. grego pretty much hits the nail on the head. There is a real shortage of musicians who are not only competent enough for the gig (the main thing is being able to play to a metronome), but are also willing to do it. It's not only a matter of knowing enough of the repertoire - the usual reels, jigs, slip jigs, and hornpipes, but also knowing the specific traditional and non-traditional set dances, and how they are to be played. The money doesn't really add up to the amount of work you put into it. When it comes right down to it, most feis musicians that I know do it for the cultural aspects of helping to keep the tradition alive.
Other question about being paid is, are you getting expenses on top of that? I guess not - but everything you "spend" in order to do the gig, reduces the net amount you get back. People who pay for musicians don't often consider that there *are* expenses (eg travel, strings, etc). I had a great argument with someone who said that musicians should play for nothing - but to me that's like asking a builder to build a wall for nothing given a pile of materials!
Mark,
Expenses are usually paid on top of the fee. Like I mentioned earlier, competent feis musicians are so rare in these parts that feis organizers are often willing to fly them in and put them up when/if they can't get the local talent. The best of the feis musicians are well known and in demand. One in particular told me that he plays about 30-40 per year, all around the US and Canada. At that point, you're well over $10K, all of it under the table; not enough to make a living but nevertheless a nice little bit of pocket change for some weekend work.
Yay Eoin! It's true, they don't get enough props. I do have to say that our dancers do appreciate getting a really good musician, and some of the adults aren't above running over with a fiver to buy the muso a drink later on them. I am very disappointed when I see dancers who don't have either the politeness or the knowledge to give a bow to honor the musos -- they can't during the solos unless they're the last dancer(s), of course, but those dancers should do so, and I think it's class of the figures to give a bow to the muso after the bow to the adjudicator.
It's a tough, long day. At some of the outdoor feisianna where it's cold, I've snuck in a bottle-shaped bag to tip something into a coffee of a morning. Many of them smoke, but of course smoking isn't allowed around the dancers these days, so they have to wait for a smoke break if they've that little addiction. They have to know every single one of the traditional and non-traditional sets, and be able to play them anywhere from 67 and up. They have to know enough tunes to not bore themselves to tears while playing reels, jigs, hornpipes, slip jigs and single jigs for hours on end, and be able to keep the time absolutely stable. They play when they're told to play, and stop when there's no more dancers to dance.
But there's nothing like dancing to a good muso's music. You feel like you're flying, like you're part of the music. I've nothing but respect for those guys, even the ones who can't stay on time, don't know the tunes, and hash the music up royal.
But I think pbassnote's got it -- every single one of the truly dedicated players I know who do this all year round tend to do it because they see it as their way of giving back and passing on. Hooray for them!
Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
I would like to thank all Feis musicians who play for dancers-
At times for €200 for 8 to 10 hours before overtime is mentioned.
These musicians are taken for granted, and oft times never appreciated..
i.e. they play too fast or they play too slow..
but never right on time....
alla dancers/teachers
I recently have had friends who have retired from paying feiseanna because their talents are not appreciated by dance organizations..
Anyone any comments to support Feis musicians?
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
I totally feel your pain. Unfortunately, there seem to be few productive options in such situations. You can grin and bear it, stipulate contractual clauses beforehand, or get the hell out of the biz...
I tend towards the first (and occasionally, when protocol allows, the second) though my grin's not too convincing. The amount I get paid fluctuates wildly depending on the situation. Last week I did a rehearsal and two 40 minute sets for CDN$650 which is good money to me. Not that I've got any such work at the moment but the CBC - not to mention other commercial recording organizations - hires muse-ohs for upwards of CDN$1-3000 a day. Tomorrow I have a 5 or 6 hour call for CDN$100 which is way too little in my opinion. But. It's a gig and getting paid to play is better than a kick in the head. If I had to 9-5 it I think I'd do myself in!
I do think that 200 Euros is way low for a 10 hour call. Sigh. I dunno if my relatively jaded perspective is the kind of support you were looking for but, nonetheless, ...
Hope you get some fat gigs soon friend.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by bestcraic
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Oh yeah, and playing for dancers IS often un-rewarding! I too have spent a fair number of under-appreciated hours slogging away for the kickers and it can really be a drag!
Best of luck...
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by bestcraic
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
I have been to nine feisianna this year, most all of the players have been pretty good. Some have been just great.
The musicians seem to be treated as well as anyone else at the feis, it is a huge job to pull one off. Other than the judges who are also paid to sit on their behind all day, the rest of the feis is run by suffering volunteers.
Some of the parents get pretty testy at times but not to the judges or musicians. I believe the rule is that the judges and musicians are not to be approached.
It is an unusual gig....lots of playing. I would imagine that after one gig like that a player can tell if he is up for another.
Treble reel makes up for it doesn't it?
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by bt
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
I play ITM and I go to dancing feiseanna (my daughter dances) but I would never aspire to play for a dancing competition.
The primary pre-requisite seems to be perfect timing. For that, a machine is better than a musician. Which is probably why some of the successful feis musicians use a keyboard where the rhythm track can be perfectly pre-programmed.
That is not to say that I don't get a lot of pleasure out of playing a set or two for dancers. When we do a concert I often drag my daughter and a couple of her friends out to do a dance for us (and of course the audience). Playing for set-dancers is also a lot of fun.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by Donough
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Perhaps the reason dancers often don't appreciate the musicians and treat them like machines is that they are trained to the accompaniment of recorded music - often played 'mechanically' to a programmed rhythm track. If they were taught to dance to real musicians, who play in strict time but never quite the same twice, then perhaps they would learn to respond to their nuances rather than simply use them as a metronome, and appreciate the skill and humanity that goes into their playing.
Unfortunately, good musicians cost good money, whilst a CD costs a tenner.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
p.s. No disrespect to any dancers reading this - who presumably DO appreciate good music, or they would not be visiting this site.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Practicing to CD does create a problem at my house.
When we play a jig or reel for the girls to dance, sometimes they will look over at us in total scorn if they feel the speed is a hair over their perceived "correct" speed.
I won't take it at home, I jump on them like a chicken on a junebug. Dance, damn you! Pay attention and get the hell with it.
Well, not in those exact words.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by bt
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Feis musicians in these parts are treated very well. They have to be, since there's considered to be a great shortage of them. The Commission has been known to refuse to grant an "official" feis in a particular city because it clashes with a previously arranged feis elsewhere, and the drain on the available pool of musicians would be too much.
Competition dancers generally have little enough interest in the musicians and what they are doing, and would probably be as happy (or maybe even happier) with a CD. For the dancers and most parents, feises are really sporting, not artistic events. I'm sure the teachers and adjudicators see it differently.
Fair play to the musicians. They are unequalled for stamina and dedication. That's hard-earned money, alright.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by grego
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
BT - Keep it up. Music is meant to be danced to and dancing is meant to be played to.
# Posted on November 7th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
If I thought they were for real, I would play for nothing. For real to me means accomplished
dancers who respect and love the music and would not embarass them selves or me. Fat chance of that ever happening, especially here in WV, where I sometimes play for contradance, but don't like it much. WB
# Posted on November 8th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
I play PA for feis dance competitions. grego pretty much hits the nail on the head. There is a real shortage of musicians who are not only competent enough for the gig (the main thing is being able to play to a metronome), but are also willing to do it. It's not only a matter of knowing enough of the repertoire - the usual reels, jigs, slip jigs, and hornpipes, but also knowing the specific traditional and non-traditional set dances, and how they are to be played. The money doesn't really add up to the amount of work you put into it. When it comes right down to it, most feis musicians that I know do it for the cultural aspects of helping to keep the tradition alive.
# Posted on November 10th 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Other question about being paid is, are you getting expenses on top of that? I guess not - but everything you "spend" in order to do the gig, reduces the net amount you get back. People who pay for musicians don't often consider that there *are* expenses (eg travel, strings, etc). I had a great argument with someone who said that musicians should play for nothing - but to me that's like asking a builder to build a wall for nothing given a pile of materials!
# Posted on November 12th 2004 by Mark Harmer
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Mark,
Expenses are usually paid on top of the fee. Like I mentioned earlier, competent feis musicians are so rare in these parts that feis organizers are often willing to fly them in and put them up when/if they can't get the local talent. The best of the feis musicians are well known and in demand. One in particular told me that he plays about 30-40 per year, all around the US and Canada. At that point, you're well over $10K, all of it under the table; not enough to make a living but nevertheless a nice little bit of pocket change for some weekend work.
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Playing for 8 - 10 hours for €200--would you?
Yay Eoin! It's true, they don't get enough props. I do have to say that our dancers do appreciate getting a really good musician, and some of the adults aren't above running over with a fiver to buy the muso a drink later on them. I am very disappointed when I see dancers who don't have either the politeness or the knowledge to give a bow to honor the musos -- they can't during the solos unless they're the last dancer(s), of course, but those dancers should do so, and I think it's class of the figures to give a bow to the muso after the bow to the adjudicator.
It's a tough, long day. At some of the outdoor feisianna where it's cold, I've snuck in a bottle-shaped bag to tip something into a coffee of a morning. Many of them smoke, but of course smoking isn't allowed around the dancers these days, so they have to wait for a smoke break if they've that little addiction. They have to know every single one of the traditional and non-traditional sets, and be able to play them anywhere from 67 and up. They have to know enough tunes to not bore themselves to tears while playing reels, jigs, hornpipes, slip jigs and single jigs for hours on end, and be able to keep the time absolutely stable. They play when they're told to play, and stop when there's no more dancers to dance.
But there's nothing like dancing to a good muso's music. You feel like you're flying, like you're part of the music. I've nothing but respect for those guys, even the ones who can't stay on time, don't know the tunes, and hash the music up royal.
But I think pbassnote's got it -- every single one of the truly dedicated players I know who do this all year round tend to do it because they see it as their way of giving back and passing on. Hooray for them!
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Oireachtas this weekend here in Western Region, Eoin, in Denver this time round -- wish us all luck!
# Posted on November 17th 2004 by Zina Lee