The Session >> Discussions >> (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
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(Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
(Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
RECENTLY I ATTENDED A CLASS WITH JAMES KELLY. NEAR THE END OF THE WEEK LONG CLASS, HE STARTED TO TALK ABOUT DOWN BOWS AND UP BOWS. HE DESCIBED A PATTERN LIKE 3, 3 AND 2.(if i remember right) I HAD NO CLUE WHAT THIS MEANT BUT HE SAID ALL THE GREATS LIKE TOMMY PEOPLES/KEVIN BURKE ETC. USED IT. OK WHAT IS THIS!!!!!!!??????? AND IN AN EFFORT TO GO BACK TO THE BASICS, I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON ORNAMENTS AND I WAS WONDERING, ASIDE FROM PRACTICING AND PRACTICING AND MORE PRACTICING, HOW CAN I MAKE MY RINGFINGURE TURN CRISPER? HELP WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED. THANKS!!
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Uh... berserker... I remember last time you posted in here you used all uppercase, and then told us your capslock key was broken when we asked you to please stop. I guess that was a lie since you were able to type "(if I remember right)" in this post that is otherwise all uppercase again. Would you mind entering your posts without yelling? Thank you.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Brad Leftwich teaches downbowing in his Homespun Tapes (homespuntapes.com) tutorial. Downbowing is a specific way of fiddling tunes using certain licks that gives them a very strong rythmic feel. However, there's different syles and such. However, he is teaching old-time fiddling, not celtic.
To the best of my knowledge, Kevin Burke does not downbow, at least not how I know of it.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
He (Kevin Burke) might not use this little shuffly thing now, but he certainly does use it upon occasion. I know this because he taught it to Will Harmon, and Will has been trying to drum it into my scattered brain.
How's it going, AJ? Give yer mum and dad a smooch for me, please!
Oh, and Will will probably give you all you need to know on the ring finger thing, but try working on really sriking through the roll with the pinky, lifting it high before quickly bringing it down -- Brendan Bulger told me that you should hear all your fingers hit through the roll. HTH!
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
AJ, never mind Jack. His vicodin must be wearing off.
Do a search for "bowing pattern" and you'll find a number of old threads here that talk about things like the Georgia Shuffle and other ideas to get more pulse and lift into your playing. One thread that comes to mind is: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/132/comments#comment1747
One typical reel pattern is: |DU DUUU DU|UU DU DUUU|, where D=down bow, U=up bow, and two or more U's in a row are eighth notes slurred on an up bow. you get the same basic pattern if you start on a slurred up bow: |UU DUUU DU|UU DU DUUU|
Of course, most good fiddlers don't rely on set patterns. They mix up the bowing to keep it from getting predictable. But they keep the pulse going. How? In my experience, and based on what I've learned from other fiddlers, there are just a handful of bowing principles.
1. The bow travels in only two directions - up and down. It really doesn't get much more complicated than that. But everything you can do on a down bow you need to be able to do on an up bow as well, and vice versa. Leaning into the bow, and easing off. Emphasizing a beat. Cutting a note short. Etc.
2. In Irish trad, fiddlers emphasize notes and beats four basic ways - by: (a) adding bow pressure on a single bow stroke (down or up, sometimes hitting an adjacent drone string), (b) leaning into the bow as you slur onto that note (often the second note of a slurred pair, but also other notes within a sequence of slurred notes), (c) "popping" a note but cutting the bow stroke short (similar to the attack a fluter gives when cutting a note short to take a breath), and (d) delaying and/or specifically articulating a note by hammering, sliding, cutting, rolling, or tripleting (slurred and bowed) on to it.
3. Slurring across the beats and across the bar lines creates a sense of flow and pulse. Following the idea in 2(b), you generally want to slur onto the strong beats. (Slurring onto the weak beats tends to either mush out the rhythm or make it too bouncy, turning reels into polkas.)
4. In many situations, you can add pulse and lift simply by starting a phrase on an up bow and using a single down bow to separate subsequent phrases.
Finally, if you're not getting the lift or pulse you want, slow down, try different ways of bowing the phrase, and make a *conscious,* deliberate choice of how to bow it to get the sound you want. Listen to a player whose pulse and lift you aspire to. Listen till that sound fills and resonates in every molecule. Listen till you can hear the slurs and single bows. Then play.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
All of a sudden everyone likes all upper case just fine eh? Last time there was a distinct distaste for the practice in this forum. SO I GUESS IT MEANS WE CAN WRITE LIKE THIS NOW... HEY... IT'S SO LIBERATING (Dow said this last time) AND MY POST SHOWS UP BETTER THAN THE OTHERS TOO. HOW CLEVER! I'LL NEVER GO BACK TO THE OLD WAY.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
P.S. For more pop on rolls (turns) on the ring finger, start by working on your cuts with the pinky.
Try playing (in A maj): |:fa{b}ag fa{b}ag:| over and over, aiming to keep that pinky loose and relaxed, but quick in it's wind-up, strike against the string, and follow through. Do the same exercise on the A string (in D maj): |:Bd{e}dc Bd{e}dc:| and so on down to the G string. I find it also helps to work on the bowing while you're doing this. First, start with a down bow on the f, then slur up bow on a{b}ag and repeat. Down one, slur three notes up, down one, slurr three up, and so on. The switch it around and slur up on fa{b}a then down on g, up on fa{b}a and down on g, and so on.
You want to linger on the first a just a bit, so the second a (after the {b} cut) is shorter than the first, but also emphasized a bit, articulated by the cut. You should hear only three notes: the f, the a, and then another a. The {b} cut does not sound at pitch--it's just an interuption of the string's vibration.
Next, do the same drills, but with rolls in place of the cuts: |:f~a3 f~a3:| and so on down the strings.
As long as the rolls give you fits, keep going back to the cuts exercise until your pinky gains the speed and freedom of movement it needs.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
sifudave - What's "celtic" fiddling? Are you implying that Scots and Irish bowing patterns have more in common with one another than they do with N. American styles?
Or do you mean the football team?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
MAYBE SOMEONE (JACK COUGH, COUGH) SHOULD CONSIDER THAT I GET SO EXCITED THAT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KELLY IS AN AWESOME TEACHER. I ATTENDED THE SAME CLASS THE PRIOR YEAR AND IT WAS TAUGHT BE TOMMY PEOPLES. HE IS AN AWEFUL TEACHER. WONDERFUL PERSON BUT... KELLY SPOKE MUCH OF PULSE ESPECIALLY IN POLKAS AND SLIDES AND GET THOSE BUT WHEN HE STARTED ABOUT REELS I WAS SO LOST. I HAVE HIS EMAIL SO I WILL PROBABLY TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT TOO.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm working on getting some teaching video clips on my website. Trying to get some serious webspace and serious time to do so.
(I've already almost run out of space for the audio clips alone).
When that's done, the teaching clips will include various bowing patterns to demonstrate what is possible in terms of 'rhythm, drive, timing' and so on.
Hopefully that will give learners&players a choice of style without being tied to any single specific way of playing.
(Not of course in any way criticising the work of any of the aforementioned pro-players/teachers).
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
OK, SO I KNEW ALREADY THAT ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THINGS WITH WHAT EVER BOW DIRECTION THEY USE. AND THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY BUT THERE ARE MORE ECONOMICAL WAYS TO GET A PULSE. I READ THROUGH AND MOSTLY UNDERSTAND THIS AND SOME OTHER PAST DISCUSSIONS. THOUGH SOME OF THE TIME I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE MEAN. AND THE HOLE "ABC' THINGS ARE VERY HARD FO RME TO GET. I DON'T REALLY KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT. BUT I AM GOING TO READ MORE AND PRACTICE HOPEFULLY I WILL GET SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!! THANKS.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Berserker,
The first thing you will want to do to develop an Irish bowing technique is RELAX. Maybe have a few beers (if you are of age,) start slurring the speech and the musical speech too.
Now, having said that, the great Will Harmon, who dwells with God in the CENTER of the UNIVERSE (according to his bio page) has handed down his four tips. Let us interpret them.
Tip 1: is contentless. It is basically a bit of theoretical bs, of use only for more advanced players to say, hey, whaddya know.
Tip 2: Section (a) of his word is true, but not to be focussed on by you, the beginner. This "technique" is all too natural to the beginner, and doing it too much actually can get in the way of getting the Irish fiddle sound. Your instinct will be to emphasize a note by bowing it sharply and separately. Don't.
Section (b) of tip 2 is a good idea to work on. Bring a little 'nyumpf' out of the fiddle somewhere in the MIDDLE of your bowstroke, as opposed to the beginning. Do this as you are executing a cut, which is described in Harmon's second post, for an added effect. Listen to recordings of Padraig O'Keefe and Dennis Murphy and you will hear a lot of this.
Section (c) of his advice is also different from what you might instinctively do. Also, try adding a bit of extra pressure while doing this, for a bit of "scrunch" effect. Listen to Tommy People's and you might hear this one.
Section (d) is incomprehensible. Pay no attention to it.
Tip 3 is an especially good place for you to focus your attention, because it's probably against your instinct, and it's important. I was at a workshop offered by Brian Conway, and he really stressed this. Listen to his album for a lot of examples. Avoid slurring into an unaccented note. For example, the rythm of a jig should NOT come out: DA-dum dit DA-dum dit DA-dum dit DA-dum (slurring unaccented notes) It should be: Dum dit da-DUM dit da-DUM dit da-DUM... (That's just the basic idea, of course.)
Ignore tip 4. He JUST SAID (in tip one) that it doesn't matter what direction the bow is going.
James Kelly is coming to my town shortly to give a workshop. I will see if I can understand what he's talking about, and help you out.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
OK SO A FEW HOURS LATER HERE I AM. I PLAYED DROWSY MAGGIE AND PINCH OF STUFF. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE BOWING. BUT HOW IN THE HELL DO I APPLY IT TO OTHER TUNES. PARTICULARLY ONES THAT DON'T HAVE A SORTA REPEATED NOTE PATTERN. I JUST GOT A RETURN EM FROM KELLY. BUT HAVEN'T GOTTEN THE CHANCE TO READ IT MAYBE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT I WILL BE BACK ON TO REPORT!!
AJ
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
YOU FOR A GUY THAT SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS A LITTLE, GAVIN, YOU DIDN'T REALLY GIVE ANY ADVICE OF YOU OWN. YOU JUST TOLD ME TO DISREGARD SOMEONE ELSES. HOW HELPFUL.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I should point out that AJ, his Dad, and myself have been online friends for a year or two, and I've heard recordings of AJ's fiddling (thanks Emily! , so I know that he's NOT a beginner but actually a very talented player who's probably a lot further along than even he realizes.
I was just passing along what I've learned in lessons and from playing with some very good fiddlers over the years. I guess one person's insight is another's "theoretical bs."
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Aristotle:
People who contradict themselves should not be spoken to. Because if they say contradictions, one can simply agree with what one will. On the other hand, if they say nothing, there is nothing to respond to.
Will Harmon:
Your up-bow and your downbow should be indistinguishable (Tip 1). But to empasize a phrase, you should start with an up-bow...(Tip4) %>
I did give advice; I advised drinking. And I tried to point out the most worthwhile advice of he who is comin' atcha from the center of the universe. It's not my fault if I misjudged your abilities; what with all the shouting...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
By the way, it's Pierre, and add an 'ies' to the name and google. You will discover that "Frankie" (eyes roll) is NOT the most well known member of the family.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
There is a lot of complicated technical advice here which amounts to "you'll find this is not an instinctive way to do it, but with practice it will come".
There's an asumption that if you drill particular paterns into your memory, they will become automatic and then you'll be able to play diddly music.
But the problem is, anything at all regimented in diddly music just sounds too machine like and is there for not diddly enough.
You have to free up your bow arm away from any form of automation, not the other way round.
The "instinct" comes from the sound you want, not the bowing patern you practiced. So it comes down to what I've said again, again and again.
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN
(And for anyone who likes their typography all in caps, less is more)
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Emerson: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Pierre, drop into our Helena session sometime to see just how remote and central we are to the Irish trad music universe. Meanwhile, I'll continue to try to see the humor in your comments, tho I'm starting to think you've missed the sense of irony in my bio.
I agree with Michael--it'a all about freeing your bowing hand up to do whatever is needed to get the sound you hear in your mind. But sometimes that sound is the result of certain "patterns" of up and down bows/slurs. It may seem a bit backwards to come at bowing from "Here's a pattern. Learn it and you'll be able to make this sound." What you really want to do is think "Here's a sound" and let your bow hand find the strokes to make it.
I've seen people learn to diddle as well as the best by absorbing all the various shuffles and slurs and single-bow stuff, and then letting the music come out. Eventually, the "patterns" go subconscious.
On the other hand, Brian Conway emphasizes the conscious choice of bow strokes, so you're not doomed to one unthinking way of bowing a phrase, or of phrasing those notes in the first place.
There's more than one way to learn the feel. In private emails I've suggested to AJ that he pick one tune and get it into his head so there's no room in his brain for anything but that tune and it's pulse. And then play it over and over until your sound matches the sound in you head. At that point, you can analyze what your bow is doing, if you want. And then find other ways of doing it as well.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Okay, so I googled Pierre Gavinies, and now I have to eat crow because apparently we've been graced with the presence here of an 18th century violin virtuouso. Come back from the dead to discuss Irish fiddling. I *am* impressed.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Without meaning to diss teaching (although I apologise in advance because I might end up doing it) I suppose what I'm saying is that diddley music can't be taught. Now I know this is nonsence, so I need to work out what I'm really saying.
It's like calculus. If you're bright and you work hard, you can study and perform really quite complicated mathematical tasks using differential equations. And you can do this without ever having the slightest inkling of what calculus is or why it works. You can learn to use differential equations completely parrot fashion. Millions of people the world over who have no mathematical ability what so ever do it every year to pass exams.
These people think calculus is hard going, and it is, for them.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Point taken Will. And the flaw in my comparrison is that while the poor parrot student of maths hates his task, the poor parrot student of diddley music still seems to love theirs.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
More to the point - I've heard lots of top notch musicians talk about the initial difficulties they had learning to play. Many learned at the knee of another musician, not in a vacuum. There's nothing "wrong" with using the analytical part of your brain to learn new skills and concepts, and it doesn't make you a lesser musician if that's how you learn. I'm a bit tired of Michael's endless crowing about how naturally it all came to him, and how "easy" it is. Obviously, if it came easily to AJ and all the other folks who ask questions here, *they wouldn't be asking these questions,* would they? I don't see how it helps to come on here and insinuate that they're somehow inferior. Over and over again.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sorry Will. I hold up my hands and willingly admit that I had terrible trouble learning to play the fiddle. For years I laboured trying to get "it", thinking I had "it", ect. I'm not trying to be preachy here, simply trying to give advice. My problem was that I thought I was in a vacume. I thought I was that isolated suburbanite with no connection to the music other than the forced pale imitation. Then I realised that I'd had the bothy band all along and all I needed to do was to open my ears
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ah, well that's a horse of a different color. Yep, listening to good players *is* essential for learning to play this stuff. I had the same experience--right down to the suburban environs and the Bothy Band coming to my rescue. But I also lucked out and landed on the doorsteps of some mighty players who could articulate what they knew. I try to follow their example and pass along what they taught me. Typing it into these threads is far from ideal--words often fail where a simple demonstration would succeed in spades--but it's all we have here.
That said, there are damn few short cuts to playing this music well. All the technique and analytical understanding in the world won't help if you haven't spent enough time listening to good players. It's been my experience that you have to listen long enough that what sounds hopelessly intricate and nuanced and unfathomable becomes obvious and clear and simple, with or without labeling all the bits.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I have a problem visualizing a bowing pattern that would suit all tunes, or a majority of them. A friend of mine once told me that I must pick the mandolin in a specific pattern. I think it was DUDDUDDUDD. You can probably tell that I found that too confining.
I am not going to argue with maestro Kelly, but I assume that the bowing pattern is a base structure. It isn't a lock. It is adjusted as each tune requires, or as the ornamentation requires.
On the gill/will discussion then, I think that you can give people tools, but they have to learn how to use those tools. We can help them to understand when to use those tools, but it is up to them to make the best use of the tool.
In order to understand the how and when, they need to listen, play with others and play for dancers.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Zina and I spent many months circling each other on all sorts of subjects in the early threads here. Turns out that we agree on most things musical. Michael and I also appear to agree on plenty, but we have markedly different ways of saying what we mean. Thank goodness--what a boring world it would be if we were all of one mind. And it's healthy to have to explain ourselves to others--it compels us to think through what we think we know.
I think we rarely have true debates at thesession.org--more what I think of as deliberative dialogues, sometimes spirited, but almost always trending toward building a common, diverse understanding of the issue at hand, rather than "winning" a debate. Some people routinely post in more of a debate style, but even they eventually lapse into conversation.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
LOL! Emerson did say that a FOOLISH consistency was the hobgoblin of small minds, some days, but other days he denied it.
Come on Will, you know you love my comments. Isn't it ironic how I insist on taking your ironic statements at face value? You love me so much, YOU miraculously brought me back from the dead! Now that's impressive.
Here's a question, because the discussion is breaking down. What is your favorite fiddle workshop you've been to? I've been to several now, and they all have very different approaches. Brian Conway and Rose Flanagan gave very concrete and practical advise concerning bowing, whereas Kevin Burke absolutely refused to, but spoke in much more general terms. Liz Carroll willingly volunteered some fairly unique ornaments that she does. Tommy Peoples actually wrote out his bowings of the various tunes (which were highly counterintuitive, and obviously provide some great effects.)
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I was just thinking that Michael Gill's going to have a run for his money for The Session curmudgeon. *smirk*
In -- out. That's me these days, though it sounds like I'll be trekking back home sometime late next week! Hooray!
Anyway, AJ, I shouldn't stress about it too much. If it's not fun to be working on this stuff, then back off a bit and just enjoy playing as a bit of a vacation for a few days until it IS fun to work on it again. (And my bet is that you're only doing the thing with the caps because you know it teases. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.)
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
How about the dual nature of phrases like "my friend"? Just depends on who is saying it and in what conditions, and it can mean the exact opposite of the words...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hang on a minute Will. Do we not still have a fundamental disagreement here that needs sorted?
My suggestion is that, while calculus and diddly bowing paterns can be learned parrot fashion (all be it with a comendable degree of dedication, ney, love), there is a much easier way. And that is to understand it on an intuative level.
Your suggestion is that if you study hard and practice, it will all come in good time. I disagree. I think that study and practice only get in the way of the understanding. And the key to understanding is listening, not analytical repetition of counter intuatiuve abstract paterns.
And I speak from experience here, and that's why I offer it as advice. Now, I know your next retort will be, "Ah, yes, but all that practice you did before your dramatic enlightenment in actual fact payed off." Trust me, it only made it worse.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael's remarks about calculus resonate.
Before I read maths at university I did a Higher National Certificate in maths and applied physics. The content of this HNC course paralled most of an equivalent uni course but we were basically taught little more than a series of rules, formulas and procedures, and how to apply them. Later on, when I did maths at uni we did more or less the same syllabus in the first two years but with the fundamental difference that the real reasons and foundations were gone into in detail, so giving a much better insight into how and why things worked. And it isn't until the third year that you discover how much of mathematics is inextricably linked at a very deep level.
When teaching a child to play an instrument you've got to give them a set of rules to go by, otherwise chaos is likely to ensue; if you're teaching an adult you can then give the reasons for the rules, and how they can be modified, or even dispensed with, because the adult will have the maturity and understanding for this. BTW, for "adult" read anyone aged from about 17 and up.
Trevor
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
There's a quote somewhere from some Nobel prizewinner that goes "Algebra is a system for getting an answer even though you don't know what you're trying to do."
I suppose you could substitute "bowing patterns" in there and it would still ring true.
Michael jumped ahead in the discussion and presumed to say what I might be thinking next, and he missed the target. I agree that hours of practice often get in the way of genuine progress. Especially if you're focused solely on some "bowing system."
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I must confess that I haven't learnt particular "bowing patterns". I do whatever feels natural and appropriate at that moment in the tune, which implies that I don't necessarily do exactly the same next time round.
Same with ornaments.
Trevor
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
So Michael, if someone asks you how you bow a tune, or a certain part of a tune, do you tell them?
I taught Lord McDonald's to a fiddler here. She learned it by ear and took away a tape to practice. She's got it now, but was having trouble figuring out how to bow the first part.
She asked how I do it, and after playing it over and over, I was able to figure out how I did it and then relate that to her.
In your opinion then Michael, was I doing her a dis-service?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ah Michael, I wish I could tell when you're trying to be a pain in the arse, and when you're just being yourself. (Just kidding!
I really think we're on common ground here. As follies.
My yella site mantra of late has been to repeat Yo-Yo Ma's ditty about, "Playing music isn't about perfection, it's about expression." Which steers me in the direction of using the bow as an expressive tool, not a technical one. In my experience, my single biggest leap in bowing came when I started thinking in terms of strumming the strings with my fingers (index and middle) to get the sound I wanted, and let the bow take care of whatever happened.
It strikes me that workshops are full of fiddlers who are technically proficient but are still desperately searching for lift and pulse and nyah, *as though they live in the bow.* What I hear Michael saying is, you have to get the lift and pulse and nyah into *you* and then it will come out, naturally, through your bow hand. And I agree 100 percent.
But I still think it's useful to talk about what you do with your bow hand, once you've got the nyah, that works for you, to get the sound you're after. Why? First off, we discover that everyone does things a little differently, and yet gets strikingly similar results (nyah). Watch a group of good fiddlers all sawing away on the same tune and you'll see bows flying in every direction, slurs and single strokes overlapping, bowed triplets played in opposite directions, etc., yet they can all get lift, pulse, and nyah. Why do we so often ignore that evidence? "What's a good bowing pattern for reels?" Um, take your pick. Oh, and don't stick to any one approach or it will sound predictable and mechanical.
The second thing we learn from talking about bowing is that most good fiddlers, for all their individual differences, also *use similar approaches for certain sounds.* If you want the long bow, Sligo nyah, sooner or later you're going to "slur across the bar lines." I put that in quotes because it's become a cliche, right? Because it works. And I see no harm in passing it along as a tip to someone who's on the verge of nyah and just needs a little nudge.
In short, what's intuitive for one fiddler is counter-intuitive for the next, but it all works if your "technique" doesn't get in the way of the nyah coming out. And it is possible to think and talk about this stuff without impairing your ability to *do* it.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ha ha! "confess" - a relic of my classical orchestral playing, where I sometimes "forget" the bowing laid down for the cello section, and so get an odd look from the conductor and a quiet word later from the section leader to check out the bowing in my cello part ...
The answer to that of course is to become section leader, and then everyone will follow my bowing
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jode, consider demonstrating more than one way to bow the same phrase. You'll get that learner a lot farther down the road to proficiency if you show them some of the endless possibiliities rather than creating the expectation that one way is the "best" way.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
You are right again Will, and I guess we do agree agree afterall.
And a good tip I give people is to not just slur accross the bar lines, but to try and play the whole tune with just one direction, letting your left hand do all the articulation. One of the problems beginners have is to bow every note and it's hard to just take out certain bow strokes. Much easier to start with none and then add them in. (The same goes for flute and whistle playing with tongues by the way)
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
This is has been a very interesting thread so far.
I wonder can threads liek this be archived or filed for easier access, has this been thought of before, or would it be too tricky?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will - 'endless possibilities' is exactly what's in my mind regarding bowing examples to show to others. It can't be conveyed in words, sound clips give a little more, but not enough...I'm trying to get video&sound clips out on the web, but I'm not sure what to use. Subject for another thread coming up.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sean Smythe once told me at a workshop that he prefers to bow every single note singly when he's learning a tune, and then add other stuff like slurs and such as he needs them for the sound he wants.
A lot of this, I think, is that it makes a heap lot of difference as to whether you already have some proficiency with a bow before you can just forget about bowing patterns. How many of us who have been playing for over 5 years really REALLY remember exactly how painful and frustrating it was to not be able to bow one single note without having to worry whether the bow was going to slip off the string, squeak/squeal/shrill, go so far off the parallel that you risked bowing your bridge, etc.?
When you learn to read, you usually are started on the alphabet first. All this palaver about expression and such is very well and good, but you'd better be able to bow at least at a rudimentary level before deciding to toss the whole thing.
Which is not to say that I don't agree with you all, after a certain point of proficiency is reached. Just that I want to make certain that beginning fiddlers don't feel bad that their scratching and scrapings don't sound like YoYo Ma, even though they've got lots of expression to let out, nor that they should go after leaping the mountain before climbing the foothills.
BTW, BegF, feel free to start emaling Will and bug him, along with the rest of us, to get done with that so-called book of his, which is supposed to collect all this stuff and a lot more. I know he's got it started. Ah, that pesky "making a living" thing...
But feel free to cut and paste your own notes from the archives. That's what most of us do (at least until Will gets off his procrastinating rear end).
DAVE! SHOWADDYDADDYDADITO (or however you stop spelling that)! Here I am! See? I'm here! I'm here! Stop trying to guilt me, it's your turn, it's your own fault you're not on while I am!
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
What the hell is a CD book? But yes, I've been wrestling with how to *show* all this bowing stuff, rather than throwing verbiage at it.
Just back from tonight's session, and at the end, some of us went over a tune, and I found myself playing it on whistle, showing the fingering, while gulping air and shouting out the names of the notes, and some people complaining, "Just play the thing and let me watch," and others begging, "What note was that?" And I was thinking to myself, what media does all of this, aside from sitting face to face and playing the tunes?
Sigh.
But of course I'm just some amateur suburban wannabe Yank--who am I to teach this stuff?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
BegF, you can always archive a discussion that's important to you by clicking on File>Save Page As, and saving it where you want. There are usually three options:
Text Only - not all that easy to read because there's a lot of irrelevant form stuff on it, although it's easy enough to edit with a word processor;
Web Page, HTML only - more or less what you see on the website, easy to read and only a little bigger than Text Only;
Web Page, complete - the entire discussion page as received on your computer, together with links which will be active if you're on-line. Note that this option produces an html file (which you click on when you want to access the page) and a folder - both the file and folder are essential.
Here's a tip if you want to save the complete list of the tunes on the database.
1. Click on Tunes and place the cursor on the latest tune. You will see the tune number at the bottom of the window (currently, as I write, it is 3803).
2. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Next. This will take you to the next page of 20 tunes.
3. At the top of the window you will see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index.php/new?start=20&howmany=20
Place the cursor on this and change it to http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index.php/new?start=0&howmany=3803
The last figure is the number of the latest tune.
4. Hit Enter or click on Go (or whatever system your browser uses to download from the web). The entire list of tunes on the database will now download as a single page. Note that this may well take a few minutes, depending on the speed of your particular internet access.
5. You can now archive this single page as I described above. I'd save it as the complete web page, because then you can get to a tune very quickly by clicking on it - if you're on-line of course.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will's anecdote of teaching a tune on his whistle is symptomatic of why I persevere with my "Listen listen listen" crusade. Half the people wanted to be told what notes he was playing, and the other half wanted to "see" which notes he was playing.
And though Jim agrees that "endless posibilities" is the key to diddly bowing, he still wants to "show" people how it's done.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Is it really necessary to continue the "listen listen listen" crusade? For one thing, whoever hasn't heard you by now is obviously *not* listening, and will never listen to you. So why waste your energy? I mean, it's music - it's obvious you've got to listen. I don't think there's anything wrong with visual learning either by the way. Tradists have always learnt trad by watching others as well as listening, unless they're blind of course. I've struggled for years with certain techniques trying to emulate what I'm hearing on CDs or whatever, and then I've seen someone doing the same technique in a session and found that it was more easily executed than I'd first realised. By keeping your eyes open as well as your lugs, you can learn much more quickly.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael, I'm not sure what you mean by "show people how it's done"...are you saying that by 'showing', I'd be doing more harm than good? Granted, you have to listen all the time, but there's only a certain amount you can learn (some of it wrongly). Imagine someone who had listened long and hard and *only* to Tommy Peoples - he'd have no idea how to execute bow triplets properly - he'd be forever wondering how he was making the 'ch.ch.ch' sound. Strictly speaking, that's the sound of a poorly played bow triplet, but it's become an accepted sound in trad fiddling and it certainly does not detract from the man's high quality playing.
If the listener could actually see Mr Peoples playing he would realise what he was up to.
Diddly fiddly (as you well know) is extremely diverse in its regional styles and variations of instances of the same tune being played differently (even by the same player at different times). Can you honestly expect a learner to aurally digest all these styles over a period of time by listening and listening, then somehow come up with his own style? Trust me, it's not going to happen. The guy will be totally confused and more bewildered than when he first started listening in the first place.
My idea of demo'ing bowing variations is to pictorially explain what is possible, give a choice, and show that some things are 'easier than they sound' (as Dow also pointed out). My guess is that while they are listening, they also be watching, ie look, listen learn...what's the problem with that?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ha ha, there's so much contradiction here, where do I start?
I'm particularly fond of Dow's cheeky aside, "unless you're blind". Like it's easier to play if you're not blind. Bollocks
And have I ever "seen" Tommy Peoples? Nope (though some one lent me a video the other day that I havn't got around to watching yet). But is it not bloody obvious that it's just a bowed triplet with a bit more pressure to make it grate? Come on now, and I bet Tommy would be the first to say that it's not hard. But the important point is, would I understand Tommy peoples better if I watched him? Absolutly profoundly and definately not. (Put that question to a blind person, if you dare)
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael, maybe you wouldn't understand Tommy Peoples better if you saw him. Point is - you're a competent, experienced good fiddle player. Thousands aren't, and want to be... Things are not so obvious to them.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Well, you haven't converted me to your "listen only" religion, Michael. I'm speaking from my own experience and I know what's right for my own playing. Gouge your own eyes out if you want, I'll be keeping mine thanks
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I like to use all my senses to learn when I play tunes. Even smell - I've learnt that it's very difficult to play when you're distracted by the B.O. of the person next to you. Ignore your sense of sight at your peril, Michael. Open your mind and you might find you're holding yourself back by not watching Tommy Peoples. Donate your eyes - I'm sure someone out there would be glad of them, that's if they manage to wash off that thick layer of cynicism
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
"What's that note you played there?"
"It's an A"
"Which A? I can reach three on my fiddle"
"This one"
"Which? I need to see it"
"Why?"
"It sounds better if can see it"
"Aye!"
"It's just a floating thing in the ether of nothingness unless I can see it. And smell it for that matter. And touch it."
"But you can't see music, it's just vibrating molecules of invisible air. You can't touch music either, but it can touch you"
"Ah ha, that's my piont. I want the music to touch me, and I find it touches me more easily if I can see it."
"I see now, you don't meen see it, you meen see it being created. You meen you want to be able to watch the creation of the vibrating molecules of air."
"That's right, the vibrating molecules are just not enough for me. I need to see the performance, only being able to hear the performance is to only getting a part of it. To truly appreaciate a performance you have to witness it with all your sences."
"Well then, now we're getting down to it. I can see our differences of opinion now. You are unable to appreciate music for what it is, an abstract aural expression. You see it as performance art. This is a whole different kettle of fish."
"Yes, that's right. All art is performance art. That's what Jackson Pollock explored. He realised that the creation was fundamental to the product."
"Ah, but you don't have to watch a video of Pollock swinging paint buckets arround on a piece of string to appreciate the paintings. The splended thing about these works of art is that the action is inherant in the final static product. And the same thing is true of diddly music, the action is inherant in the sound. The act of creation is embeded in the vibrating molecules."
"Yes but isn't it fun to see Pollock's swinging paint buckets?"
"Of course it is. But, take a close look at a particular squigle. The discussion we are having is, is it relevent whether the squigle was made by attatching a rope to the bucket's handle, or was the bucket just swung at the end of Pollack's arm?"
"Yes I think it is relevent. I understand the painting better"
"No it's not relevent. Interesting, I admit, but abstract expressionism (which is what music is) does not concern itself with such trifle details. To be concerend with such minutia is to miss the whole picture."
"But all the whole picture is, is collections of minutiae."
"Yes, but you are concerning yourself with the creation on the minutiae and not the creation of the whole picture."
"Same thing"
Two camps
1. Everthing is the sum of its parts
2. The sum is more important than the parts
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Interesting Michael! I think you're taking liberties with the visual art comparison though. Playing trad music isn't like chucking paint round in buckets. The musical equivalent of that would be modern, abstract atonal music or something, if you really *must* draw direct comparisons between visual and aural art.
I suppose the bucket thing came to mind because of your views on "variations not being variations but just a one-off expression of the abstract, fluid thing which *is* the tune". I agree with all of that stuff as it happens, but trad differs in that you can only go so far with your abstractness and self-expression, otherwise whatever you're doing ceases to become the tune and either starts becoming another similar tune, or a new composition. With trad, it's important to express yourself individually and find your own voice, but it's equally important to pay attention to do certain things in the same way as musicians who have gone before you. I don't mean copy them. I mean general features of the tunes like ornamentation (if you don't do it properly your music won't sound Irish). Incidentally I think a lot of bands nowadays cross that line and emphasize the "bucket-swinging" aspect of their music (I'm thinking of bands like Flook).
So all these things that everyone has to do to sound Irish: say you can't do one of them, like a picked triplet on a banjo for example - you could spend hours listening to CDs and still not get it. You watch someone who has been doing it for years, you see their hand position and how their wrist is moving. Suddenly it clicks and you can do it. This is nothing to do with "performance art". It's to do with the tradition and being able to express it to the best of your creative and technical ability, and it's how musicians have always learnt. It's about having more colours in your palette so that you can better produce the abstract tune in your head.
Like you, I think that listening is the most important thing, but you shouldn't ignore the other senses whilst learning or playing in a session. Playing this music isn't about just sitting listening to CDs.
Don't laugh at me for saying this, but I don't think you can separate the senses into distinct categories like that. All the senses are connected with the same brain and brains are funny things that nobody really understands, not even you! ... hmmm I think I need to start a new discussion otherwise I'm going to ramble way off on a tangent. See new thread.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I really do appreciate Michael's essay on this--I think there's more than a grain of real accuracy in it, on the importance of *listening* to music deeply. By leaving a radio or cd player on while focusing on other tasks, many of us train ourselves to use music as background, and we develop a habit of skimming the music's surface, if we're actively listening at all, rather than really paying attention to what we're hearing. When I teach people to learn music by ear, one of the first steps--which many folks are resistant to--is to slow down and stop multi-tasking when listening to the tune.
This is relevant to our recent discussions here about noodling at sessions. In my experience, the people who really can pick up a tune on the fly almost always *just listen* to the tune at least one time through before lifting their instrument. They don't distract themselves with finding the fingering or sussing out which string it starts on, etc. They just listen, many of them, I've noticed, with eyes closed.
I'm not saying I agree with Michael 100 percent on this, but I do think many budding ear learners would do well to start by re-learning how to listen deeply to music, in part by stripping away other distractions. Even if you think of yourself as a "visual learner" it's worth experimenting to see how far your ears alone can take you.
Of course I also agree with Mark's point about the brain being naturally good at multi-tasking, and I've certainly benefitted from watching good players. But to me, that's more about technique or the physical side of making music than the music itself. For example, some years ago watching Eileen Ivers close up helped me realize how small and relaxed the bowed triplet motion could be, and that helped me improve my own triplets. But what really got my triplets clean, crisp, and on the road to effortless was *listening* to Brian Conway's bowed triplets--each note clear as a bell, impeccably timed.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
On the visual impact, and referencing other conversations, watching what a fiddler is doing can be confusing. People who watch Tommy Peoples play and try to figure out how he manages his bowed triplets are confused by the flicking of his pinky finger on his bow hand. Arguments are had about what affect that flick has on the triplet.
Of course, the bowed triplet is probably one of the most difficult things to "show" someone how to do.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
According to people who've taken his workshops, Tommy himself flatly denies that he flicks his finger against the stick. I think what people are seeing is how relaxed his hand is, and the natural bounce of that relaxed pinky above the stick.
When I first learned something from really watching a bowed triplet being played, I already did them myself and understood the basic technique. So I knew what I was watching. But seeing the smallness, precision, and effortlessness of it was an epiphany. As was *hearing* those qualities applied so well by Mr. Conway.
Classical music certainly has evolved into a high form of abstract expressionism, with some stellar players. Most of these players have relied throughout their progress on visual cues--reading the dots, reading bowing marks, watching a conductor, etc. Great music can certainly be played by people who've combined aural, visual, and other learning approaches.
In the end, I think it's silly to limit ourselves to any one approach. Our brains are remarkably versatile, agile, and adaptive. Most learners do better when they're open minded and optimistic, rather than skeptical and blindered to their own potential.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hey Will! Have you seen Tommy play recently? I saw him in Milwaukee in August and was like 5 feet away from him. His picky finger does lift off the bow and it does appear to flick. But that flick seems to be the after-effect of whatever he is doing to get the triplet. It is not a cause.
I use this example only to say that watching can sometimes be confusing. I agree that we should use whatever tools that we can to learn the music. But as is often the case, certain tools will work better at certain times.
Your example about pefecting triplets is a great illustration of that.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Oh, and Tommy's bow pressure on the strings probably would increase for the duration of the triplet, with his 1st finger pressing down on the bow - as the bow is pivoted (usually against the middle two fingers - then pressing sharply with the 1st finger could cause the pinky to twitch or even come off the bow.
I get the feeling that Tommy's 'scratchy' triplet sound is down to the very short down-up-down distance of bow travel, rather than extra pressure on the string. Shorter travel than most, I'd say. That the way he likes it, I guess.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jim, do you mean taking a video and showing it in slow motion? Then with isolations on what the shoulder is doing, what the elbow is doing, what the wrist is doing and what the fingers are doing?
I'll have to try slowing my triplet down, but I really think it will be lost in the translation of speed. If find that when you slow things down, much is lost.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jode, I actually meant playing live, slowly so one could follow the movements. I agree it's difficult to follow - it's a bit like trying to demo ricochet bowing - trying to emulate the bow's natural bouncing at slow speed......
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm afrade I have to return to the simplicity of this music, which I regard on one of its great strengths. Will reminds us of the "classical musicians evolving into abstract expressionists" and thier initial reliance on many forms of visual references. He's right ofcourse, but this is exceedingly complicated music. What we are blessed with is a very tight set of rules which both limit the complexity while symultaniously allowing an enormous amount of freedom of expression. n
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
What I was getting at, though, is that relying on visual references doesn't necessarily impair you ability to play well. Yes, I've heard people play mechanically from sheet music, but most of them also play mechanically without sheet music. It's possible to play "with feeling" and fully into the music even if you have dots in front of you, or visual images floating through your cortex. Given that our tunes are relatively simple, it should be even less of a problem (and perhaps more of an inspiration, to some of us at least) to see, smell, taste, or feel things as we play or listen. I don't think these other mental activities are necessarily obstacles to living inside the tune, although some people may benefit from limiting such "distractions" (if that's what they are to those people) and focusing solely on the aural qualities of the music.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Next time you are at a session with a horrible bodhran player or a horrible guitarist, try this: close your eyes and isolate the sound of the person's playing. Mute that sound or religate it to the background. Is it there, and yet not there? Can you now play unimpeded by the nasty distraction of their horrible rhythm?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Yes, when someone else's fibbrilated rhythms threaten to knock me off beat, I have a habit of turning my ear toward the bass-side f-hole, a way of physically tuning them out. But it takes only a few seconds of listening to myself to make them disappear (no matter how loud they play), and I can go back to whatever posture suits me.
Nothing new here -- my kids demonstrate selective hearing all the time.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I love it. I wasn't able to do that until I closed my eyes and tried it. Perhaps it is one of those skills you lose somewhere in early adulthood? I suppose that would be pre-babies.
I remember going to our first natural childbirth get together. Someone was giving a presentation and other couples were there with their kids. We could not believe that the parents of these kids could actually hear and understand the presentation through the din.
With two boys, needless to say we can believe it now.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Actually, after all this theoretical postulating, it's good to gewt back to the reality of the imperfect. At an otherwise splended diddle the other night, there was a regular and oft insurmaountable problen of the sweet old deer who is unable to bang her drum either in time or quietly. The only solution is to finnish out the set with a magnificently over the top foot banging that people can only follow with their eyes. (then to stop of course, and wait til you see she's gone home)a
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
And Will, you're right again. Horses for courses. But I like the way you notice that "some people may benefit from limiting distractions" other than the aural. My leaning, as you know, is that we would all benefit. But if we take your more generous point of view, how does one decide if you'd benefit from limiting your "distracting" visual aids, or you'd benefit from increasing your "helpful" visual crutches?
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sometime ago, out of curiosity I looked at the waveform of Tommy Peoples's playing from one of his cds (The Quiet Glen). I zoomed in on the waveform of one of his famous scratchy triplets (with Cool Edit) and noticed that it was in fact only two notes, each about 1/22 second in length. I'd be very surprised if anyone could deliberately move a bow to and fro at that speed, so this supports the view that what he's doing is really a controlled bounce of the bow.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm not sure about this, but I'd wager that one person's crutch is another's cure. Um, one person's plateau is another's stepping stone? See what I'm getting at? I think it's okay to use temporary training wheels if they help you sooner ride the bike without them. Me, I bent the arms of the training wheels all the way up, so they couldn't possibly touch the ground, and then just rode. But other kids had inner ear balance problems, or a reasonable fear of taking all the skin off their keen caps and the palsm of their hands. Training wheels enabled them to learn to ride, more efficiently than crashing repeatedly for 6 months and getting discouraged.
In an ideal world, no one would have any neurological or physiological limitations, and we'll all soar right to our fullest potential. But given the reality of the human condition, I think it's okay for people to get a helping hand now and then.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Again Will, I totaly agree. And I suppose it's up to the individual to decide what crutch/help they need, rather than some cumudgenly old bugger like me
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I almost added something just now about each player needing to decide for themselves when to get off the plateau and treat it as a stepping stone. When to reach for help and when to simply buckle down and forge ahead.
But I still agree with your overall premise that the goal is to discard all the non-aural stuff and go deeper into the simplicity of music - tones and timing.
I have to say - you're being unusually chatty lately. I hope this doesn't put you off your game.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will, when you say "non-aural" stuff, do you mean when music is the input or when you're producing it? Music is more than just "aural stuff". Have you ever played a tune that was a favourite of a friend who has died? When you play that tune how do you feel? If you think about that person, do you play differently? What happens when you block out any thoughts of the person and just play the notes? Do you play the tune as well? I'm not so sure it is all about "tones and timing". Not for me it's not anyway.
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Lol, is this a set up? If I open this door, will the bucket of ice water come splashing down? But who set it there?
Actually, I think Michael and I agree on many things musical, but we come at it from different experiences and sometimes approaches. Not at all a bad thing.
Though I have to admit it's a bit startling, these last few days, to find out what a loquacious fellow Mr. Gill can be....
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
That's interesting. What with music being a launguage that has nothing to do with ordinary communication, but, none the less shared with people who share that language. Yes, tunes are associated with people, usually the person you learned the tune off. Or more usually, people who share your version (or you share their version, same thing), which comes from many many times playing it together. Now that's what I call abstract communication
(Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
(Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
RECENTLY I ATTENDED A CLASS WITH JAMES KELLY. NEAR THE END OF THE WEEK LONG CLASS, HE STARTED TO TALK ABOUT DOWN BOWS AND UP BOWS. HE DESCIBED A PATTERN LIKE 3, 3 AND 2.(if i remember right) I HAD NO CLUE WHAT THIS MEANT BUT HE SAID ALL THE GREATS LIKE TOMMY PEOPLES/KEVIN BURKE ETC. USED IT. OK WHAT IS THIS!!!!!!!??????? AND IN AN EFFORT TO GO BACK TO THE BASICS, I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON ORNAMENTS AND I WAS WONDERING, ASIDE FROM PRACTICING AND PRACTICING AND MORE PRACTICING, HOW CAN I MAKE MY RINGFINGURE TURN CRISPER? HELP WOULD BE MUCH APPRECIATED. THANKS!!
AJ
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Uh... berserker... I remember last time you posted in here you used all uppercase, and then told us your capslock key was broken when we asked you to please stop. I guess that was a lie since you were able to type "(if I remember right)" in this post that is otherwise all uppercase again. Would you mind entering your posts without yelling? Thank you.
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Brad Leftwich teaches downbowing in his Homespun Tapes (homespuntapes.com) tutorial. Downbowing is a specific way of fiddling tunes using certain licks that gives them a very strong rythmic feel. However, there's different syles and such. However, he is teaching old-time fiddling, not celtic.
To the best of my knowledge, Kevin Burke does not downbow, at least not how I know of it.
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
It's pretty much Georgia shuffle or Hokum bow.
-dogma
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by dogmageek
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
He (Kevin Burke) might not use this little shuffly thing now, but he certainly does use it upon occasion. I know this because he taught it to Will Harmon, and Will has been trying to drum it into my scattered brain.
How's it going, AJ? Give yer mum and dad a smooch for me, please!
Oh, and Will will probably give you all you need to know on the ring finger thing, but try working on really sriking through the roll with the pinky, lifting it high before quickly bringing it down -- Brendan Bulger told me that you should hear all your fingers hit through the roll. HTH!
Zina
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Remembering to keep your fingers relaxed throughout, of course. *smirk*
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.P.S.
I hear James is a fab teacher, too -- hope to take one of his workshops someday in the near future...
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
AJ, never mind Jack. His vicodin must be wearing off.
Do a search for "bowing pattern" and you'll find a number of old threads here that talk about things like the Georgia Shuffle and other ideas to get more pulse and lift into your playing. One thread that comes to mind is:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/132/comments#comment1747
One typical reel pattern is: |DU DUUU DU|UU DU DUUU|, where D=down bow, U=up bow, and two or more U's in a row are eighth notes slurred on an up bow. you get the same basic pattern if you start on a slurred up bow: |UU DUUU DU|UU DU DUUU|
Of course, most good fiddlers don't rely on set patterns. They mix up the bowing to keep it from getting predictable. But they keep the pulse going. How? In my experience, and based on what I've learned from other fiddlers, there are just a handful of bowing principles.
1. The bow travels in only two directions - up and down. It really doesn't get much more complicated than that. But everything you can do on a down bow you need to be able to do on an up bow as well, and vice versa. Leaning into the bow, and easing off. Emphasizing a beat. Cutting a note short. Etc.
2. In Irish trad, fiddlers emphasize notes and beats four basic ways - by: (a) adding bow pressure on a single bow stroke (down or up, sometimes hitting an adjacent drone string), (b) leaning into the bow as you slur onto that note (often the second note of a slurred pair, but also other notes within a sequence of slurred notes), (c) "popping" a note but cutting the bow stroke short (similar to the attack a fluter gives when cutting a note short to take a breath), and (d) delaying and/or specifically articulating a note by hammering, sliding, cutting, rolling, or tripleting (slurred and bowed) on to it.
3. Slurring across the beats and across the bar lines creates a sense of flow and pulse. Following the idea in 2(b), you generally want to slur onto the strong beats. (Slurring onto the weak beats tends to either mush out the rhythm or make it too bouncy, turning reels into polkas.)
4. In many situations, you can add pulse and lift simply by starting a phrase on an up bow and using a single down bow to separate subsequent phrases.
Finally, if you're not getting the lift or pulse you want, slow down, try different ways of bowing the phrase, and make a *conscious,* deliberate choice of how to bow it to get the sound you want. Listen to a player whose pulse and lift you aspire to. Listen till that sound fills and resonates in every molecule. Listen till you can hear the slurs and single bows. Then play.
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hey Queen Zeen - good to see you're still checking in!
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
All of a sudden everyone likes all upper case just fine eh? Last time there was a distinct distaste for the practice in this forum. SO I GUESS IT MEANS WE CAN WRITE LIKE THIS NOW... HEY... IT'S SO LIBERATING (Dow said this last time) AND MY POST SHOWS UP BETTER THAN THE OTHERS TOO. HOW CLEVER! I'LL NEVER GO BACK TO THE OLD WAY.
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
P.S. For more pop on rolls (turns) on the ring finger, start by working on your cuts with the pinky.
Try playing (in A maj): |:fa{b}ag fa{b}ag:| over and over, aiming to keep that pinky loose and relaxed, but quick in it's wind-up, strike against the string, and follow through. Do the same exercise on the A string (in D maj): |:Bd{e}dc Bd{e}dc:| and so on down to the G string. I find it also helps to work on the bowing while you're doing this. First, start with a down bow on the f, then slur up bow on a{b}ag and repeat. Down one, slur three notes up, down one, slurr three up, and so on. The switch it around and slur up on fa{b}a then down on g, up on fa{b}a and down on g, and so on.
You want to linger on the first a just a bit, so the second a (after the {b} cut) is shorter than the first, but also emphasized a bit, articulated by the cut. You should hear only three notes: the f, the a, and then another a. The {b} cut does not sound at pitch--it's just an interuption of the string's vibration.
Next, do the same drills, but with rolls in place of the cuts: |:f~a3 f~a3:| and so on down the strings.
As long as the rolls give you fits, keep going back to the cuts exercise until your pinky gains the speed and freedom of movement it needs.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
sifudave - What's "celtic" fiddling? Are you implying that Scots and Irish bowing patterns have more in common with one another than they do with N. American styles?
Or do you mean the football team?
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by kris
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Is it possible to do posts in italics? I can't work out how to do it.
Trevor
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
MAYBE SOMEONE (JACK COUGH, COUGH) SHOULD CONSIDER THAT I GET SO EXCITED THAT I JUST CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KELLY IS AN AWESOME TEACHER. I ATTENDED THE SAME CLASS THE PRIOR YEAR AND IT WAS TAUGHT BE TOMMY PEOPLES. HE IS AN AWEFUL TEACHER. WONDERFUL PERSON BUT... KELLY SPOKE MUCH OF PULSE ESPECIALLY IN POLKAS AND SLIDES AND GET THOSE BUT WHEN HE STARTED ABOUT REELS I WAS SO LOST. I HAVE HIS EMAIL SO I WILL PROBABLY TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT TOO.
AJ
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
DOES THIS GROUPING OF BOWINGS MEAN NOTES OR BEATS?
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm working on getting some teaching video clips on my website. Trying to get some serious webspace and serious time to do so.
(I've already almost run out of space for the audio clips alone).
When that's done, the teaching clips will include various bowing patterns to demonstrate what is possible in terms of 'rhythm, drive, timing' and so on.
Hopefully that will give learners&players a choice of style without being tied to any single specific way of playing.
(Not of course in any way criticising the work of any of the aforementioned pro-players/teachers).
Jim
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
OK, SO I KNEW ALREADY THAT ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THINGS WITH WHAT EVER BOW DIRECTION THEY USE. AND THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY BUT THERE ARE MORE ECONOMICAL WAYS TO GET A PULSE. I READ THROUGH AND MOSTLY UNDERSTAND THIS AND SOME OTHER PAST DISCUSSIONS. THOUGH SOME OF THE TIME I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT PEOPLE MEAN. AND THE HOLE "ABC' THINGS ARE VERY HARD FO RME TO GET. I DON'T REALLY KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT. BUT I AM GOING TO READ MORE AND PRACTICE HOPEFULLY I WILL GET SOMEWHERE!!!!!!!!! THANKS.
AJ
# Posted on October 30th 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Berserker,
The first thing you will want to do to develop an Irish bowing technique is RELAX. Maybe have a few beers (if you are of age,) start slurring the speech and the musical speech too.
Now, having said that, the great Will Harmon, who dwells with God in the CENTER of the UNIVERSE (according to his bio page) has handed down his four tips. Let us interpret them.
Tip 1: is contentless. It is basically a bit of theoretical bs, of use only for more advanced players to say, hey, whaddya know.
Tip 2: Section (a) of his word is true, but not to be focussed on by you, the beginner. This "technique" is all too natural to the beginner, and doing it too much actually can get in the way of getting the Irish fiddle sound. Your instinct will be to emphasize a note by bowing it sharply and separately. Don't.
Section (b) of tip 2 is a good idea to work on. Bring a little 'nyumpf' out of the fiddle somewhere in the MIDDLE of your bowstroke, as opposed to the beginning. Do this as you are executing a cut, which is described in Harmon's second post, for an added effect. Listen to recordings of Padraig O'Keefe and Dennis Murphy and you will hear a lot of this.
Section (c) of his advice is also different from what you might instinctively do. Also, try adding a bit of extra pressure while doing this, for a bit of "scrunch" effect. Listen to Tommy People's and you might hear this one.
Section (d) is incomprehensible. Pay no attention to it.
Tip 3 is an especially good place for you to focus your attention, because it's probably against your instinct, and it's important. I was at a workshop offered by Brian Conway, and he really stressed this. Listen to his album for a lot of examples. Avoid slurring into an unaccented note. For example, the rythm of a jig should NOT come out: DA-dum dit DA-dum dit DA-dum dit DA-dum (slurring unaccented notes) It should be: Dum dit da-DUM dit da-DUM dit da-DUM... (That's just the basic idea, of course.)
Ignore tip 4. He JUST SAID (in tip one) that it doesn't matter what direction the bow is going.
James Kelly is coming to my town shortly to give a workshop. I will see if I can understand what he's talking about, and help you out.
In the meantime, RELAX!!!!!!!!
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by m_gavin
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
OK SO A FEW HOURS LATER HERE I AM. I PLAYED DROWSY MAGGIE AND PINCH OF STUFF. I CAN UNDERSTAND THE BOWING. BUT HOW IN THE HELL DO I APPLY IT TO OTHER TUNES. PARTICULARLY ONES THAT DON'T HAVE A SORTA REPEATED NOTE PATTERN. I JUST GOT A RETURN EM FROM KELLY. BUT HAVEN'T GOTTEN THE CHANCE TO READ IT MAYBE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT I WILL BE BACK ON TO REPORT!!
AJ
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hahahahaha
With a screen name like m_gavin, we should prolly listen to what Frankie has to say.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
YOU FOR A GUY THAT SOUNDS LIKE HE KNOWS A LITTLE, GAVIN, YOU DIDN'T REALLY GIVE ANY ADVICE OF YOU OWN. YOU JUST TOLD ME TO DISREGARD SOMEONE ELSES. HOW HELPFUL.
AJ
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I should point out that AJ, his Dad, and myself have been online friends for a year or two, and I've heard recordings of AJ's fiddling (thanks Emily!
, so I know that he's NOT a beginner but actually a very talented player who's probably a lot further along than even he realizes.
I was just passing along what I've learned in lessons and from playing with some very good fiddlers over the years. I guess one person's insight is another's "theoretical bs."
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Aristotle:
>
People who contradict themselves should not be spoken to. Because if they say contradictions, one can simply agree with what one will. On the other hand, if they say nothing, there is nothing to respond to.
Will Harmon:
Your up-bow and your downbow should be indistinguishable (Tip 1). But to empasize a phrase, you should start with an up-bow...(Tip4) %
I did give advice; I advised drinking. And I tried to point out the most worthwhile advice of he who is comin' atcha from the center of the universe. It's not my fault if I misjudged your abilities; what with all the shouting...
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by m_gavin
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
By the way, it's Pierre, and add an 'ies' to the name and google. You will discover that "Frankie" (eyes roll) is NOT the most well known member of the family.
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by m_gavin
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
There is a lot of complicated technical advice here which amounts to "you'll find this is not an instinctive way to do it, but with practice it will come".
There's an asumption that if you drill particular paterns into your memory, they will become automatic and then you'll be able to play diddly music.
But the problem is, anything at all regimented in diddly music just sounds too machine like and is there for not diddly enough.
You have to free up your bow arm away from any form of automation, not the other way round.
The "instinct" comes from the sound you want, not the bowing patern you practiced. So it comes down to what I've said again, again and again.
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN
(And for anyone who likes their typography all in caps, less is more)
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
HOW DO I APPLY IT TO TUNES!!!!!!!!! EVERY THING EVERY ONE HAS TOLD ME INCLUDING JAMES KELLY HAS TO DO WITH REPEATED NOTE PATTERNS.
AJ
# Posted on October 31st 2004 by berserker
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Emerson: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Pierre, drop into our Helena session sometime to see just how remote and central we are to the Irish trad music universe. Meanwhile, I'll continue to try to see the humor in your comments, tho I'm starting to think you've missed the sense of irony in my bio.
I agree with Michael--it'a all about freeing your bowing hand up to do whatever is needed to get the sound you hear in your mind. But sometimes that sound is the result of certain "patterns" of up and down bows/slurs. It may seem a bit backwards to come at bowing from "Here's a pattern. Learn it and you'll be able to make this sound." What you really want to do is think "Here's a sound" and let your bow hand find the strokes to make it.
I've seen people learn to diddle as well as the best by absorbing all the various shuffles and slurs and single-bow stuff, and then letting the music come out. Eventually, the "patterns" go subconscious.
On the other hand, Brian Conway emphasizes the conscious choice of bow strokes, so you're not doomed to one unthinking way of bowing a phrase, or of phrasing those notes in the first place.
There's more than one way to learn the feel. In private emails I've suggested to AJ that he pick one tune and get it into his head so there's no room in his brain for anything but that tune and it's pulse. And then play it over and over until your sound matches the sound in you head. At that point, you can analyze what your bow is doing, if you want. And then find other ways of doing it as well.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Okay, so I googled Pierre Gavinies, and now I have to eat crow because apparently we've been graced with the presence here of an 18th century violin virtuouso. Come back from the dead to discuss Irish fiddling. I *am* impressed.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Without meaning to diss teaching (although I apologise in advance because I might end up doing it) I suppose what I'm saying is that diddley music can't be taught. Now I know this is nonsence, so I need to work out what I'm really saying.
It's like calculus. If you're bright and you work hard, you can study and perform really quite complicated mathematical tasks using differential equations. And you can do this without ever having the slightest inkling of what calculus is or why it works. You can learn to use differential equations completely parrot fashion. Millions of people the world over who have no mathematical ability what so ever do it every year to pass exams.
These people think calculus is hard going, and it is, for them.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
...and imagine the world if no one did math except the math idiot savants. :-|
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Point taken Will. And the flaw in my comparrison is that while the poor parrot student of maths hates his task, the poor parrot student of diddley music still seems to love theirs.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
More to the point - I've heard lots of top notch musicians talk about the initial difficulties they had learning to play. Many learned at the knee of another musician, not in a vacuum. There's nothing "wrong" with using the analytical part of your brain to learn new skills and concepts, and it doesn't make you a lesser musician if that's how you learn. I'm a bit tired of Michael's endless crowing about how naturally it all came to him, and how "easy" it is. Obviously, if it came easily to AJ and all the other folks who ask questions here, *they wouldn't be asking these questions,* would they? I don't see how it helps to come on here and insinuate that they're somehow inferior. Over and over again.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sorry Will. I hold up my hands and willingly admit that I had terrible trouble learning to play the fiddle. For years I laboured trying to get "it", thinking I had "it", ect. I'm not trying to be preachy here, simply trying to give advice. My problem was that I thought I was in a vacume. I thought I was that isolated suburbanite with no connection to the music other than the forced pale imitation. Then I realised that I'd had the bothy band all along and all I needed to do was to open my ears
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ah, well that's a horse of a different color. Yep, listening to good players *is* essential for learning to play this stuff. I had the same experience--right down to the suburban environs and the Bothy Band coming to my rescue. But I also lucked out and landed on the doorsteps of some mighty players who could articulate what they knew. I try to follow their example and pass along what they taught me. Typing it into these threads is far from ideal--words often fail where a simple demonstration would succeed in spades--but it's all we have here.
That said, there are damn few short cuts to playing this music well. All the technique and analytical understanding in the world won't help if you haven't spent enough time listening to good players. It's been my experience that you have to listen long enough that what sounds hopelessly intricate and nuanced and unfathomable becomes obvious and clear and simple, with or without labeling all the bits.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I have a problem visualizing a bowing pattern that would suit all tunes, or a majority of them. A friend of mine once told me that I must pick the mandolin in a specific pattern. I think it was DUDDUDDUDD. You can probably tell that I found that too confining.
I am not going to argue with maestro Kelly, but I assume that the bowing pattern is a base structure. It isn't a lock. It is adjusted as each tune requires, or as the ornamentation requires.
On the gill/will discussion then, I think that you can give people tools, but they have to learn how to use those tools. We can help them to understand when to use those tools, but it is up to them to make the best use of the tool.
In order to understand the how and when, they need to listen, play with others and play for dancers.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Gill/Will discussion – I wonder how may interesting two-way debates we could have
Troy/Jack (tragic, lame I know !)
My favourite would be Will – Lee
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by BegF
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Zina and I spent many months circling each other on all sorts of subjects in the early threads here. Turns out that we agree on most things musical. Michael and I also appear to agree on plenty, but we have markedly different ways of saying what we mean. Thank goodness--what a boring world it would be if we were all of one mind. And it's healthy to have to explain ourselves to others--it compels us to think through what we think we know.
I think we rarely have true debates at thesession.org--more what I think of as deliberative dialogues, sometimes spirited, but almost always trending toward building a common, diverse understanding of the issue at hand, rather than "winning" a debate. Some people routinely post in more of a debate style, but even they eventually lapse into conversation.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
LOL! Emerson did say that a FOOLISH consistency was the hobgoblin of small minds, some days, but other days he denied it.
Come on Will, you know you love my comments. Isn't it ironic how I insist on taking your ironic statements at face value? You love me so much, YOU miraculously brought me back from the dead! Now that's impressive.
Here's a question, because the discussion is breaking down. What is your favorite fiddle workshop you've been to? I've been to several now, and they all have very different approaches. Brian Conway and Rose Flanagan gave very concrete and practical advise concerning bowing, whereas Kevin Burke absolutely refused to, but spoke in much more general terms. Liz Carroll willingly volunteered some fairly unique ornaments that she does. Tommy Peoples actually wrote out his bowings of the various tunes (which were highly counterintuitive, and obviously provide some great effects.)
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by m_gavin
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
So either Tanya's back, or one of her victims revived....
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I was just thinking that Michael Gill's going to have a run for his money for The Session curmudgeon. *smirk*
In -- out. That's me these days, though it sounds like I'll be trekking back home sometime late next week! Hooray!
Anyway, AJ, I shouldn't stress about it too much. If it's not fun to be working on this stuff, then back off a bit and just enjoy playing as a bit of a vacation for a few days until it IS fun to work on it again. (And my bet is that you're only doing the thing with the caps because you know it teases. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.)
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'd echo that, Zina. Funny how a sense of patience with yourself can help progress.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Take that strong sense of irony out of the side of your mouth, Harmon!
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Wait--don't tug so hard! That irony is barbed and it's lodged firmly in my cheek!
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
No, not *that* cheek....
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
*smirk* Blood on the water...
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ah, I'm just chum then, eh?
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ew, this is starting to go in directions I would rather not wot of. >:-[
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Lol, the fickle nature of human relations. Anyone else think it weird that "chum" means both friend and shark bait?
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
How about the dual nature of phrases like "my friend"? Just depends on who is saying it and in what conditions, and it can mean the exact opposite of the words...
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Um, so what are you saying?
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Why, nothing at all...friend...
LOL -- I gotta get going, talk to you later, Will.
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Good luck with your Dad, and the spiders, and carpet removal.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ta very much, you KNOW how much I like spiders...
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hang on a minute Will. Do we not still have a fundamental disagreement here that needs sorted?
My suggestion is that, while calculus and diddly bowing paterns can be learned parrot fashion (all be it with a comendable degree of dedication, ney, love), there is a much easier way. And that is to understand it on an intuative level.
Your suggestion is that if you study hard and practice, it will all come in good time. I disagree. I think that study and practice only get in the way of the understanding. And the key to understanding is listening, not analytical repetition of counter intuatiuve abstract paterns.
And I speak from experience here, and that's why I offer it as advice. Now, I know your next retort will be, "Ah, yes, but all that practice you did before your dramatic enlightenment in actual fact payed off." Trust me, it only made it worse.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael's remarks about calculus resonate.
Before I read maths at university I did a Higher National Certificate in maths and applied physics. The content of this HNC course paralled most of an equivalent uni course but we were basically taught little more than a series of rules, formulas and procedures, and how to apply them. Later on, when I did maths at uni we did more or less the same syllabus in the first two years but with the fundamental difference that the real reasons and foundations were gone into in detail, so giving a much better insight into how and why things worked. And it isn't until the third year that you discover how much of mathematics is inextricably linked at a very deep level.
When teaching a child to play an instrument you've got to give them a set of rules to go by, otherwise chaos is likely to ensue; if you're teaching an adult you can then give the reasons for the rules, and how they can be modified, or even dispensed with, because the adult will have the maturity and understanding for this. BTW, for "adult" read anyone aged from about 17 and up.
Trevor
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
There's a quote somewhere from some Nobel prizewinner that goes "Algebra is a system for getting an answer even though you don't know what you're trying to do."
I suppose you could substitute "bowing patterns" in there and it would still ring true.
Michael jumped ahead in the discussion and presumed to say what I might be thinking next, and he missed the target. I agree that hours of practice often get in the way of genuine progress. Especially if you're focused solely on some "bowing system."
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sorry for being presumptous Will, just trying to a smart arse as usuall. Does this mean we agree though?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I must confess that I haven't learnt particular "bowing patterns". I do whatever feels natural and appropriate at that moment in the tune, which implies that I don't necessarily do exactly the same next time round.
Same with ornaments.
Trevor
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I don't understand Trevor, you confess like you'd done wrong?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
So Michael, if someone asks you how you bow a tune, or a certain part of a tune, do you tell them?
I taught Lord McDonald's to a fiddler here. She learned it by ear and took away a tape to practice. She's got it now, but was having trouble figuring out how to bow the first part.
She asked how I do it, and after playing it over and over, I was able to figure out how I did it and then relate that to her.
In your opinion then Michael, was I doing her a dis-service?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ah Michael, I wish I could tell when you're trying to be a pain in the arse, and when you're just being yourself. (Just kidding!
I really think we're on common ground here. As follies.
My yella site mantra of late has been to repeat Yo-Yo Ma's ditty about, "Playing music isn't about perfection, it's about expression." Which steers me in the direction of using the bow as an expressive tool, not a technical one. In my experience, my single biggest leap in bowing came when I started thinking in terms of strumming the strings with my fingers (index and middle) to get the sound I wanted, and let the bow take care of whatever happened.
It strikes me that workshops are full of fiddlers who are technically proficient but are still desperately searching for lift and pulse and nyah, *as though they live in the bow.* What I hear Michael saying is, you have to get the lift and pulse and nyah into *you* and then it will come out, naturally, through your bow hand. And I agree 100 percent.
But I still think it's useful to talk about what you do with your bow hand, once you've got the nyah, that works for you, to get the sound you're after. Why? First off, we discover that everyone does things a little differently, and yet gets strikingly similar results (nyah). Watch a group of good fiddlers all sawing away on the same tune and you'll see bows flying in every direction, slurs and single strokes overlapping, bowed triplets played in opposite directions, etc., yet they can all get lift, pulse, and nyah. Why do we so often ignore that evidence? "What's a good bowing pattern for reels?" Um, take your pick. Oh, and don't stick to any one approach or it will sound predictable and mechanical.
The second thing we learn from talking about bowing is that most good fiddlers, for all their individual differences, also *use similar approaches for certain sounds.* If you want the long bow, Sligo nyah, sooner or later you're going to "slur across the bar lines." I put that in quotes because it's become a cliche, right? Because it works. And I see no harm in passing it along as a tip to someone who's on the verge of nyah and just needs a little nudge.
In short, what's intuitive for one fiddler is counter-intuitive for the next, but it all works if your "technique" doesn't get in the way of the nyah coming out. And it is possible to think and talk about this stuff without impairing your ability to *do* it.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ha ha! "confess" - a relic of my classical orchestral playing, where I sometimes "forget" the bowing laid down for the cello section, and so get an odd look from the conductor and a quiet word later from the section leader to check out the bowing in my cello part ...
The answer to that of course is to become section leader, and then everyone will follow my bowing
Trevor
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jode, consider demonstrating more than one way to bow the same phrase. You'll get that learner a lot farther down the road to proficiency if you show them some of the endless possibiliities rather than creating the expectation that one way is the "best" way.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
You are right again Will, and I guess we do agree agree afterall.
And a good tip I give people is to not just slur accross the bar lines, but to try and play the whole tune with just one direction, letting your left hand do all the articulation. One of the problems beginners have is to bow every note and it's hard to just take out certain bow strokes. Much easier to start with none and then add them in. (The same goes for flute and whistle playing with tongues by the way)
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
This is has been a very interesting thread so far.
I wonder can threads liek this be archived or filed for easier access, has this been thought of before, or would it be too tricky?
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will - 'endless possibilities' is exactly what's in my mind regarding bowing examples to show to others. It can't be conveyed in words, sound clips give a little more, but not enough...I'm trying to get video&sound clips out on the web, but I'm not sure what to use. Subject for another thread coming up.
Jim
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sean Smythe once told me at a workshop that he prefers to bow every single note singly when he's learning a tune, and then add other stuff like slurs and such as he needs them for the sound he wants.
A lot of this, I think, is that it makes a heap lot of difference as to whether you already have some proficiency with a bow before you can just forget about bowing patterns. How many of us who have been playing for over 5 years really REALLY remember exactly how painful and frustrating it was to not be able to bow one single note without having to worry whether the bow was going to slip off the string, squeak/squeal/shrill, go so far off the parallel that you risked bowing your bridge, etc.?
When you learn to read, you usually are started on the alphabet first. All this palaver about expression and such is very well and good, but you'd better be able to bow at least at a rudimentary level before deciding to toss the whole thing.
Which is not to say that I don't agree with you all, after a certain point of proficiency is reached. Just that I want to make certain that beginning fiddlers don't feel bad that their scratching and scrapings don't sound like YoYo Ma, even though they've got lots of expression to let out, nor that they should go after leaping the mountain before climbing the foothills.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
BTW, BegF, feel free to start emaling Will and bug him, along with the rest of us, to get done with that so-called book of his, which is supposed to collect all this stuff and a lot more. I know he's got it started. Ah, that pesky "making a living" thing...
But feel free to cut and paste your own notes from the archives. That's what most of us do (at least until Will gets off his procrastinating rear end).
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sad thing is I usually lead with my rear end, so the rest of me is even further, um, "behind."
:- |
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
What a very lovely mental picture that is...
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
PPS -- Dave//Showaddy
DAVE! SHOWADDYDADDYDADITO (or however you stop spelling that)! Here I am! See? I'm here! I'm here! Stop trying to guilt me, it's your turn, it's your own fault you're not on while I am!
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hey, you brought it up!
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Will Harmon
PPS -- Dave//Showaddy
Will, what would you think about making that a CD book? I'll design it if you want to do it that way.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
What the hell is a CD book? But yes, I've been wrestling with how to *show* all this bowing stuff, rather than throwing verbiage at it.
Just back from tonight's session, and at the end, some of us went over a tune, and I found myself playing it on whistle, showing the fingering, while gulping air and shouting out the names of the notes, and some people complaining, "Just play the thing and let me watch," and others begging, "What note was that?" And I was thinking to myself, what media does all of this, aside from sitting face to face and playing the tunes?
Sigh.
But of course I'm just some amateur suburban wannabe Yank--who am I to teach this stuff?
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
BegF, you can always archive a discussion that's important to you by clicking on File>Save Page As, and saving it where you want. There are usually three options:
Text Only - not all that easy to read because there's a lot of irrelevant form stuff on it, although it's easy enough to edit with a word processor;
Web Page, HTML only - more or less what you see on the website, easy to read and only a little bigger than Text Only;
Web Page, complete - the entire discussion page as received on your computer, together with links which will be active if you're on-line. Note that this option produces an html file (which you click on when you want to access the page) and a folder - both the file and folder are essential.
Here's a tip if you want to save the complete list of the tunes on the database.
1. Click on Tunes and place the cursor on the latest tune. You will see the tune number at the bottom of the window (currently, as I write, it is 3803).
2. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Next. This will take you to the next page of 20 tunes.
3. At the top of the window you will see
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index.php/new?start=20&howmany=20
Place the cursor on this and change it to
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/index.php/new?start=0&howmany=3803
The last figure is the number of the latest tune.
4. Hit Enter or click on Go (or whatever system your browser uses to download from the web). The entire list of tunes on the database will now download as a single page. Note that this may well take a few minutes, depending on the speed of your particular internet access.
5. You can now archive this single page as I described above. I'd save it as the complete web page, because then you can get to a tune very quickly by clicking on it - if you're on-line of course.
Trevor
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will's anecdote of teaching a tune on his whistle is symptomatic of why I persevere with my "Listen listen listen" crusade. Half the people wanted to be told what notes he was playing, and the other half wanted to "see" which notes he was playing.
And though Jim agrees that "endless posibilities" is the key to diddly bowing, he still wants to "show" people how it's done.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Is it really necessary to continue the "listen listen listen" crusade? For one thing, whoever hasn't heard you by now is obviously *not* listening, and will never listen to you. So why waste your energy? I mean, it's music - it's obvious you've got to listen. I don't think there's anything wrong with visual learning either by the way. Tradists have always learnt trad by watching others as well as listening, unless they're blind of course. I've struggled for years with certain techniques trying to emulate what I'm hearing on CDs or whatever, and then I've seen someone doing the same technique in a session and found that it was more easily executed than I'd first realised. By keeping your eyes open as well as your lugs, you can learn much more quickly.
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael, I'm not sure what you mean by "show people how it's done"...are you saying that by 'showing', I'd be doing more harm than good? Granted, you have to listen all the time, but there's only a certain amount you can learn (some of it wrongly). Imagine someone who had listened long and hard and *only* to Tommy Peoples - he'd have no idea how to execute bow triplets properly - he'd be forever wondering how he was making the 'ch.ch.ch' sound. Strictly speaking, that's the sound of a poorly played bow triplet, but it's become an accepted sound in trad fiddling and it certainly does not detract from the man's high quality playing.
If the listener could actually see Mr Peoples playing he would realise what he was up to.
Diddly fiddly (as you well know) is extremely diverse in its regional styles and variations of instances of the same tune being played differently (even by the same player at different times). Can you honestly expect a learner to aurally digest all these styles over a period of time by listening and listening, then somehow come up with his own style? Trust me, it's not going to happen. The guy will be totally confused and more bewildered than when he first started listening in the first place.
My idea of demo'ing bowing variations is to pictorially explain what is possible, give a choice, and show that some things are 'easier than they sound' (as Dow also pointed out). My guess is that while they are listening, they also be watching, ie look, listen learn...what's the problem with that?
Jim
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Ha ha, there's so much contradiction here, where do I start?
I'm particularly fond of Dow's cheeky aside, "unless you're blind". Like it's easier to play if you're not blind. Bollocks
And have I ever "seen" Tommy Peoples? Nope (though some one lent me a video the other day that I havn't got around to watching yet). But is it not bloody obvious that it's just a bowed triplet with a bit more pressure to make it grate? Come on now, and I bet Tommy would be the first to say that it's not hard. But the important point is, would I understand Tommy peoples better if I watched him? Absolutly profoundly and definately not. (Put that question to a blind person, if you dare)
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Michael, maybe you wouldn't understand Tommy Peoples better if you saw him. Point is - you're a competent, experienced good fiddle player. Thousands aren't, and want to be... Things are not so obvious to them.
Jim
# Posted on November 3rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Well, you haven't converted me to your "listen only" religion, Michael. I'm speaking from my own experience and I know what's right for my own playing. Gouge your own eyes out if you want, I'll be keeping mine thanks
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I like to use all my senses to learn when I play tunes. Even smell - I've learnt that it's very difficult to play when you're distracted by the B.O. of the person next to you. Ignore your sense of sight at your peril, Michael. Open your mind and you might find you're holding yourself back by not watching Tommy Peoples. Donate your eyes - I'm sure someone out there would be glad of them, that's if they manage to wash off that thick layer of cynicism
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
"What's that note you played there?"
"It's an A"
"Which A? I can reach three on my fiddle"
"This one"
"Which? I need to see it"
"Why?"
"It sounds better if can see it"
"Aye!"
"It's just a floating thing in the ether of nothingness unless I can see it. And smell it for that matter. And touch it."
"But you can't see music, it's just vibrating molecules of invisible air. You can't touch music either, but it can touch you"
"Ah ha, that's my piont. I want the music to touch me, and I find it touches me more easily if I can see it."
"I see now, you don't meen see it, you meen see it being created. You meen you want to be able to watch the creation of the vibrating molecules of air."
"That's right, the vibrating molecules are just not enough for me. I need to see the performance, only being able to hear the performance is to only getting a part of it. To truly appreaciate a performance you have to witness it with all your sences."
"Well then, now we're getting down to it. I can see our differences of opinion now. You are unable to appreciate music for what it is, an abstract aural expression. You see it as performance art. This is a whole different kettle of fish."
"Yes, that's right. All art is performance art. That's what Jackson Pollock explored. He realised that the creation was fundamental to the product."
"Ah, but you don't have to watch a video of Pollock swinging paint buckets arround on a piece of string to appreciate the paintings. The splended thing about these works of art is that the action is inherant in the final static product. And the same thing is true of diddly music, the action is inherant in the sound. The act of creation is embeded in the vibrating molecules."
"Yes but isn't it fun to see Pollock's swinging paint buckets?"
"Of course it is. But, take a close look at a particular squigle. The discussion we are having is, is it relevent whether the squigle was made by attatching a rope to the bucket's handle, or was the bucket just swung at the end of Pollack's arm?"
"Yes I think it is relevent. I understand the painting better"
"No it's not relevent. Interesting, I admit, but abstract expressionism (which is what music is) does not concern itself with such trifle details. To be concerend with such minutia is to miss the whole picture."
"But all the whole picture is, is collections of minutiae."
"Yes, but you are concerning yourself with the creation on the minutiae and not the creation of the whole picture."
"Same thing"
Two camps
1. Everthing is the sum of its parts
2. The sum is more important than the parts
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Interesting Michael! I think you're taking liberties with the visual art comparison though. Playing trad music isn't like chucking paint round in buckets. The musical equivalent of that would be modern, abstract atonal music or something, if you really *must* draw direct comparisons between visual and aural art.
I suppose the bucket thing came to mind because of your views on "variations not being variations but just a one-off expression of the abstract, fluid thing which *is* the tune". I agree with all of that stuff as it happens, but trad differs in that you can only go so far with your abstractness and self-expression, otherwise whatever you're doing ceases to become the tune and either starts becoming another similar tune, or a new composition. With trad, it's important to express yourself individually and find your own voice, but it's equally important to pay attention to do certain things in the same way as musicians who have gone before you. I don't mean copy them. I mean general features of the tunes like ornamentation (if you don't do it properly your music won't sound Irish). Incidentally I think a lot of bands nowadays cross that line and emphasize the "bucket-swinging" aspect of their music (I'm thinking of bands like Flook).
So all these things that everyone has to do to sound Irish: say you can't do one of them, like a picked triplet on a banjo for example - you could spend hours listening to CDs and still not get it. You watch someone who has been doing it for years, you see their hand position and how their wrist is moving. Suddenly it clicks and you can do it. This is nothing to do with "performance art". It's to do with the tradition and being able to express it to the best of your creative and technical ability, and it's how musicians have always learnt. It's about having more colours in your palette so that you can better produce the abstract tune in your head.
Like you, I think that listening is the most important thing, but you shouldn't ignore the other senses whilst learning or playing in a session. Playing this music isn't about just sitting listening to CDs.
Don't laugh at me for saying this, but I don't think you can separate the senses into distinct categories like that. All the senses are connected with the same brain and brains are funny things that nobody really understands, not even you! ... hmmm I think I need to start a new discussion otherwise I'm going to ramble way off on a tangent. See new thread.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I really do appreciate Michael's essay on this--I think there's more than a grain of real accuracy in it, on the importance of *listening* to music deeply. By leaving a radio or cd player on while focusing on other tasks, many of us train ourselves to use music as background, and we develop a habit of skimming the music's surface, if we're actively listening at all, rather than really paying attention to what we're hearing. When I teach people to learn music by ear, one of the first steps--which many folks are resistant to--is to slow down and stop multi-tasking when listening to the tune.
This is relevant to our recent discussions here about noodling at sessions. In my experience, the people who really can pick up a tune on the fly almost always *just listen* to the tune at least one time through before lifting their instrument. They don't distract themselves with finding the fingering or sussing out which string it starts on, etc. They just listen, many of them, I've noticed, with eyes closed.
I'm not saying I agree with Michael 100 percent on this, but I do think many budding ear learners would do well to start by re-learning how to listen deeply to music, in part by stripping away other distractions. Even if you think of yourself as a "visual learner" it's worth experimenting to see how far your ears alone can take you.
Of course I also agree with Mark's point about the brain being naturally good at multi-tasking, and I've certainly benefitted from watching good players. But to me, that's more about technique or the physical side of making music than the music itself. For example, some years ago watching Eileen Ivers close up helped me realize how small and relaxed the bowed triplet motion could be, and that helped me improve my own triplets. But what really got my triplets clean, crisp, and on the road to effortless was *listening* to Brian Conway's bowed triplets--each note clear as a bell, impeccably timed.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
On the visual impact, and referencing other conversations, watching what a fiddler is doing can be confusing. People who watch Tommy Peoples play and try to figure out how he manages his bowed triplets are confused by the flicking of his pinky finger on his bow hand. Arguments are had about what affect that flick has on the triplet.
Of course, the bowed triplet is probably one of the most difficult things to "show" someone how to do.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
According to people who've taken his workshops, Tommy himself flatly denies that he flicks his finger against the stick. I think what people are seeing is how relaxed his hand is, and the natural bounce of that relaxed pinky above the stick.
When I first learned something from really watching a bowed triplet being played, I already did them myself and understood the basic technique. So I knew what I was watching. But seeing the smallness, precision, and effortlessness of it was an epiphany. As was *hearing* those qualities applied so well by Mr. Conway.
Classical music certainly has evolved into a high form of abstract expressionism, with some stellar players. Most of these players have relied throughout their progress on visual cues--reading the dots, reading bowing marks, watching a conductor, etc. Great music can certainly be played by people who've combined aural, visual, and other learning approaches.
In the end, I think it's silly to limit ourselves to any one approach. Our brains are remarkably versatile, agile, and adaptive. Most learners do better when they're open minded and optimistic, rather than skeptical and blindered to their own potential.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Hey Will! Have you seen Tommy play recently? I saw him in Milwaukee in August and was like 5 feet away from him. His picky finger does lift off the bow and it does appear to flick. But that flick seems to be the after-effect of whatever he is doing to get the triplet. It is not a cause.
I use this example only to say that watching can sometimes be confusing. I agree that we should use whatever tools that we can to learn the music. But as is often the case, certain tools will work better at certain times.
Your example about pefecting triplets is a great illustration of that.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jode, bowed triplets aren't hard to follow if they are shown slowly.
Jim
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Oh, and Tommy's bow pressure on the strings probably would increase for the duration of the triplet, with his 1st finger pressing down on the bow - as the bow is pivoted (usually against the middle two fingers - then pressing sharply with the 1st finger could cause the pinky to twitch or even come off the bow.
I get the feeling that Tommy's 'scratchy' triplet sound is down to the very short down-up-down distance of bow travel, rather than extra pressure on the string. Shorter travel than most, I'd say. That the way he likes it, I guess.
Jim
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jim, do you mean taking a video and showing it in slow motion? Then with isolations on what the shoulder is doing, what the elbow is doing, what the wrist is doing and what the fingers are doing?
I'll have to try slowing my triplet down, but I really think it will be lost in the translation of speed. If find that when you slow things down, much is lost.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Jode, I actually meant playing live, slowly so one could follow the movements. I agree it's difficult to follow - it's a bit like trying to demo ricochet bowing - trying to emulate the bow's natural bouncing at slow speed......
Jim
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm afrade I have to return to the simplicity of this music, which I regard on one of its great strengths. Will reminds us of the "classical musicians evolving into abstract expressionists" and thier initial reliance on many forms of visual references. He's right ofcourse, but this is exceedingly complicated music. What we are blessed with is a very tight set of rules which both limit the complexity while symultaniously allowing an enormous amount of freedom of expression. n
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
What I was getting at, though, is that relying on visual references doesn't necessarily impair you ability to play well. Yes, I've heard people play mechanically from sheet music, but most of them also play mechanically without sheet music. It's possible to play "with feeling" and fully into the music even if you have dots in front of you, or visual images floating through your cortex. Given that our tunes are relatively simple, it should be even less of a problem (and perhaps more of an inspiration, to some of us at least) to see, smell, taste, or feel things as we play or listen. I don't think these other mental activities are necessarily obstacles to living inside the tune, although some people may benefit from limiting such "distractions" (if that's what they are to those people) and focusing solely on the aural qualities of the music.
# Posted on November 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Next time you are at a session with a horrible bodhran player or a horrible guitarist, try this: close your eyes and isolate the sound of the person's playing. Mute that sound or religate it to the background. Is it there, and yet not there? Can you now play unimpeded by the nasty distraction of their horrible rhythm?
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Yes, when someone else's fibbrilated rhythms threaten to knock me off beat, I have a habit of turning my ear toward the bass-side f-hole, a way of physically tuning them out. But it takes only a few seconds of listening to myself to make them disappear (no matter how loud they play), and I can go back to whatever posture suits me.
Nothing new here -- my kids demonstrate selective hearing all the time.
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I love it. I wasn't able to do that until I closed my eyes and tried it. Perhaps it is one of those skills you lose somewhere in early adulthood? I suppose that would be pre-babies.
I remember going to our first natural childbirth get together. Someone was giving a presentation and other couples were there with their kids. We could not believe that the parents of these kids could actually hear and understand the presentation through the din.
With two boys, needless to say we can believe it now.
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Jode
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Actually, after all this theoretical postulating, it's good to gewt back to the reality of the imperfect. At an otherwise splended diddle the other night, there was a regular and oft insurmaountable problen of the sweet old deer who is unable to bang her drum either in time or quietly. The only solution is to finnish out the set with a magnificently over the top foot banging that people can only follow with their eyes. (then to stop of course, and wait til you see she's gone home)a
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
And Will, you're right again. Horses for courses. But I like the way you notice that "some people may benefit from limiting distractions" other than the aural. My leaning, as you know, is that we would all benefit. But if we take your more generous point of view, how does one decide if you'd benefit from limiting your "distracting" visual aids, or you'd benefit from increasing your "helpful" visual crutches?
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Sometime ago, out of curiosity I looked at the waveform of Tommy Peoples's playing from one of his cds (The Quiet Glen). I zoomed in on the waveform of one of his famous scratchy triplets (with Cool Edit) and noticed that it was in fact only two notes, each about 1/22 second in length. I'd be very surprised if anyone could deliberately move a bow to and fro at that speed, so this supports the view that what he's doing is really a controlled bounce of the bow.
Trevor
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I'm not sure about this, but I'd wager that one person's crutch is another's cure. Um, one person's plateau is another's stepping stone? See what I'm getting at? I think it's okay to use temporary training wheels if they help you sooner ride the bike without them. Me, I bent the arms of the training wheels all the way up, so they couldn't possibly touch the ground, and then just rode. But other kids had inner ear balance problems, or a reasonable fear of taking all the skin off their keen caps and the palsm of their hands. Training wheels enabled them to learn to ride, more efficiently than crashing repeatedly for 6 months and getting discouraged.
In an ideal world, no one would have any neurological or physiological limitations, and we'll all soar right to our fullest potential. But given the reality of the human condition, I think it's okay for people to get a helping hand now and then.
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Again Will, I totaly agree. And I suppose it's up to the individual to decide what crutch/help they need, rather than some cumudgenly old bugger like me
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
I almost added something just now about each player needing to decide for themselves when to get off the plateau and treat it as a stepping stone. When to reach for help and when to simply buckle down and forge ahead.
But I still agree with your overall premise that the goal is to discard all the non-aural stuff and go deeper into the simplicity of music - tones and timing.
I have to say - you're being unusually chatty lately. I hope this doesn't put you off your game.
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Gosh Will, Michael's taken a shine to you has he not? How does it feel to have him do nowt but agree with you?
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Will, when you say "non-aural" stuff, do you mean when music is the input or when you're producing it? Music is more than just "aural stuff". Have you ever played a tune that was a favourite of a friend who has died? When you play that tune how do you feel? If you think about that person, do you play differently? What happens when you block out any thoughts of the person and just play the notes? Do you play the tune as well? I'm not so sure it is all about "tones and timing". Not for me it's not anyway.
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Lol, is this a set up? If I open this door, will the bucket of ice water come splashing down? But who set it there?
Actually, I think Michael and I agree on many things musical, but we come at it from different experiences and sometimes approaches. Not at all a bad thing.
Though I have to admit it's a bit startling, these last few days, to find out what a loquacious fellow Mr. Gill can be....
# Posted on November 5th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
That's interesting. What with music being a launguage that has nothing to do with ordinary communication, but, none the less shared with people who share that language. Yes, tunes are associated with people, usually the person you learned the tune off. Or more usually, people who share your version (or you share their version, same thing), which comes from many many times playing it together. Now that's what I call abstract communication
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by ...
Re: (Bowing) Fiddle, fiddle, fiddle. Someday maybe I will start to understand it!
Well I've always figured you speak well with the fiddle.
# Posted on November 6th 2004 by Will Harmon