I've heard of wolf tones only usually occuring on the larger stringed instruments (viola and cello). Is it therefore possible to get wolf tones on a piano? Would this be a feature of a bad piano?
I'm probably showing my ignorance here but I've heard of overtones and, thanks to John Peel, the Undertones but never Wolf Tones in a musical (harmonics) sense.
I agree with BegF. The sorry excuse for a band going under that name would get short shrift down our way.
It's more commonly called a "wolf note" - avoids confusion, especially on this website!
As Beano says, the wolf note is mostly found on the cello, and to a lesser extent I believe, on the viola. On the cello it is usually the F or F# nearly half-way up the G string; the same note on the D, or an octave below on the C string, doesn't normally wolf.
In its worst form, when the cellist tries to play an F or F# on the G (and they frequently have to do this in their playing) the effect is an ugly juddering sound as if two notes very close together in pitch are being played; however, the notes on either side (E and G) have a clear sound. With some instruments the wolf is still there but manageable; it is so on my cello, but I can play through it with appropriate bowing technique.
Even the very best instruments can suffer from it, but there are ways to cure it. The commonest one is a small cylindrical brass sleeve screwed to the after section of the string between the bridge and tailpiece. It has to be located fairly accurately, and it will probably be nearly halfway along that after section. The disadvantage is that the overall tone of the G string will be slightly reduced, which is why I prefer to live with a wolf note which is manageable in playing. A mute will also kill the wolf, but dramatically alters the tonal quality of the instrument, and you can't go round playing with a mute on all the time. There is also another method which involves an internal modification to the instrument, but I don't know the details.
The cause of the wolf? When you hear it it sounds as if a particular frequency on that string is trying to force the instrument to vibrate at another, but very close, frequency. The most convincing explanation I've heard (but not necessarily the only or correct one) is to do with the proportions of the bridge. The bridge on a violin or cello is actually a vibrating part of the acoustic structure (which is why a mute on it will deaden the sound). The design of the violin bridge isn't just to look pretty; everything, the little cut-outs and curves, is there for a purpose and has evolved over the centuries to transmit the string vibrations correctly to the table and the soundpost. The cello bridge, compared with the violin bridge, is higher and narrower, and it is believed that it vibrates in a slightly different way to the violin bridge. There may be a vibration mode which clashes with the F or F# on the G string. The little brass cylinder on the after section of the string probably modifies that particular vibration mode of the bridge, as a mute certainly does.
The presence of a wolf note on a (real, mechanical) piano could indicate very serious damage - like a split or fracture in the sound board or a broken string. Another possibility is notes that are very badly out of tune. Don't forget that most notes on the real piano have three strings which are supposed to be absolutely in tune - unless of course you deliberately alter them to get the wet tuning for honky-tonk or other effects.
my understanding was that wolf tones were one of the reasons early music pieces were limited to a small subset of keys. Keyboard instruments were tuned relative to a base tone. A small number of harmonic keys relative to that tone sounded richly in tune. But if you tried to write something in a key too far off, the intervals began to clash causing undesirable sounds in the pipes (in the cathedral or whatever). As composers continued to extend the harmonic complexity of music (most notably J.S. Bach) the tuning shifted to "tempered scale", which means actually distorting the intervals slightly from the true mathematical intervals so that they fit regardless of key.
My understanding is that there's no such thing as a perfect mathematical scale. That in fact wolf notes arose because if you take the mathematic formula for a third from one note, and then apply the formula for a fifth, you'll end up in slightly different scales if you go from that third to the fifth. And such.
Aren't the last two contributors discussing something quite different from the forced vibration known as a "wolf note" which is specific to the cello and viola?
wolf tones aren't specific to stringed instruments though they may appear there more readily. They would certainly not appear in a modern piano unless, as pointed out, there was damage or the instrument was way out of tune. But "out of tune" is a relative concept - intonation is set up differently than it was a few centuries ago.
In reply to Beano's original question, looking at it from Trad Girl's viewpoint, yes, I think you could stand or sit all the Wolf Tones on a piano. Whether the piano would be quite the same again is another matter, but it's an interesting idea for CD sleeve graphics.
Didn't that lovable old character in Father Ted, "Father Jack", use "feck" virtually every other word, and on prime time tv as well!
Trevor 13:55 hrs GMT
Wolf tones
Wolf tones
Hi guys,
I've heard of wolf tones only usually occuring on the larger stringed instruments (viola and cello). Is it therefore possible to get wolf tones on a piano? Would this be a feature of a bad piano?
Just interested that's all.
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by beano
Re: Wolf tones
If any of dem bashtards sat on my Piana, I'd set it alight !
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
I'm probably showing my ignorance here but I've heard of overtones and, thanks to John Peel, the Undertones but never Wolf Tones in a musical (harmonics) sense.
I agree with BegF. The sorry excuse for a band going under that name would get short shrift down our way.
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Wolf tones
It's more commonly called a "wolf note" - avoids confusion, especially on this website!
As Beano says, the wolf note is mostly found on the cello, and to a lesser extent I believe, on the viola. On the cello it is usually the F or F# nearly half-way up the G string; the same note on the D, or an octave below on the C string, doesn't normally wolf.
In its worst form, when the cellist tries to play an F or F# on the G (and they frequently have to do this in their playing) the effect is an ugly juddering sound as if two notes very close together in pitch are being played; however, the notes on either side (E and G) have a clear sound. With some instruments the wolf is still there but manageable; it is so on my cello, but I can play through it with appropriate bowing technique.
Even the very best instruments can suffer from it, but there are ways to cure it. The commonest one is a small cylindrical brass sleeve screwed to the after section of the string between the bridge and tailpiece. It has to be located fairly accurately, and it will probably be nearly halfway along that after section. The disadvantage is that the overall tone of the G string will be slightly reduced, which is why I prefer to live with a wolf note which is manageable in playing. A mute will also kill the wolf, but dramatically alters the tonal quality of the instrument, and you can't go round playing with a mute on all the time. There is also another method which involves an internal modification to the instrument, but I don't know the details.
The cause of the wolf? When you hear it it sounds as if a particular frequency on that string is trying to force the instrument to vibrate at another, but very close, frequency. The most convincing explanation I've heard (but not necessarily the only or correct one) is to do with the proportions of the bridge. The bridge on a violin or cello is actually a vibrating part of the acoustic structure (which is why a mute on it will deaden the sound). The design of the violin bridge isn't just to look pretty; everything, the little cut-outs and curves, is there for a purpose and has evolved over the centuries to transmit the string vibrations correctly to the table and the soundpost. The cello bridge, compared with the violin bridge, is higher and narrower, and it is believed that it vibrates in a slightly different way to the violin bridge. There may be a vibration mode which clashes with the F or F# on the G string. The little brass cylinder on the after section of the string probably modifies that particular vibration mode of the bridge, as a mute certainly does.
The presence of a wolf note on a (real, mechanical) piano could indicate very serious damage - like a split or fracture in the sound board or a broken string. Another possibility is notes that are very badly out of tune. Don't forget that most notes on the real piano have three strings which are supposed to be absolutely in tune - unless of course you deliberately alter them to get the wet tuning for honky-tonk or other effects.
Trevor (1311hrs GMT+1)
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Wolf tones
Well, you learn something new everyday.
Thanks for that.
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
my understanding was that wolf tones were one of the reasons early music pieces were limited to a small subset of keys. Keyboard instruments were tuned relative to a base tone. A small number of harmonic keys relative to that tone sounded richly in tune. But if you tried to write something in a key too far off, the intervals began to clash causing undesirable sounds in the pipes (in the cathedral or whatever). As composers continued to extend the harmonic complexity of music (most notably J.S. Bach) the tuning shifted to "tempered scale", which means actually distorting the intervals slightly from the true mathematical intervals so that they fit regardless of key.
# Posted on October 28th 2004 by Test
Re: Wolf tones
My understanding is that there's no such thing as a perfect mathematical scale. That in fact wolf notes arose because if you take the mathematic formula for a third from one note, and then apply the formula for a fifth, you'll end up in slightly different scales if you go from that third to the fifth. And such.
# Posted on October 29th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: Wolf tones
Aren't the last two contributors discussing something quite different from the forced vibration known as a "wolf note" which is specific to the cello and viola?
Trevor
# Posted on October 29th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Wolf tones
I don't know I'm confused - what were the first 3 replies about?
Thanks for the big post Trevor!
# Posted on October 29th 2004 by beano
Re: Wolf tones
wolf tones aren't specific to stringed instruments though they may appear there more readily. They would certainly not appear in a modern piano unless, as pointed out, there was damage or the instrument was way out of tune. But "out of tune" is a relative concept - intonation is set up differently than it was a few centuries ago.
# Posted on October 29th 2004 by Test
Re: Wolf tones
hehe i'm gonna sound really stupid here, but are you on about the band?
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Trad Girl
Re: Wolf tones
The Wolfe Tones are going to be in Raleigh, NC on Nov 10th..think I'm gonna go...
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: Wolf tones
Good man !
Bring a balaclava and a closed mind !
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
In reply to Beano's original question, looking at it from Trad Girl's viewpoint, yes, I think you could stand or sit all the Wolf Tones on a piano. Whether the piano would be quite the same again is another matter, but it's an interesting idea for CD sleeve graphics.
Trevor
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Wolf tones
Jeremy, you know the whole bad language thing that I got ticked off for...does it count if it's about the Wolfe Tones ?
# Posted on November 1st 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
don't think I'll go after all
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Sunnybear
Re: Wolf tones
I hope it wasn't something I said !
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
Hey BegF, Jeremy lets you say "feck".
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: Wolf tones
feck off so.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
That looks a bit mean now that I see it in print.
Meant to be funny, not mean.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
Away and feck off yersel
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: Wolf tones
Well I never !
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF
Re: Wolf tones
Didn't that lovable old character in Father Ted, "Father Jack", use "feck" virtually every other word, and on prime time tv as well!
Trevor 13:55 hrs GMT
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Wolf tones
That's the point Trevor. Mary Whitehouse never even realised that it was just a euphamism for "fuck"
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by ...
Re: Wolf tones
Well it's never used in a sexual sense.
If not used as an insult it can mean to steal or rob.
Someone's after feckin my bike, does not mean someone had a romantic encounter with my two wheeled friend and "went all the way"
Toodle pip.
# Posted on November 2nd 2004 by BegF