I've been playing a lot recently and the red marks on my neck appear to be becoming permanent, along with a sort of small lump/knot under the reddest and largest mark. I can deal with the comments about the rash on my neck and the stares from strangers, although I've been wearing a lot of turtlenecks and scarfs lately :^). But I'm finding myself shifting the fiddle around in an unconcious effort to ease the pain, which is not helping my playing at all.
The shoulder rest I have is comfortable, and I don't think I'm gripping the instrument really tightly. If anything, I am more relaxed that ever, thanks to the helpful hints from you guys. I've tried using different clothes over the chin rest and its attachment posts, but can't play with a thick one, and a thin one, while it helps reduces the sting ing, doesn't seem to be doing much to reduce the marks. In fact, they are getting worse.
Other than stopping playing (it is not that bad, it is never that bad), does anyone have a suggestion? I have a vague memory of seeing someone once with some kind of chamois looking thing over the chin rest. Has anyone used something like that or perhaps know where I could get one?
Or maybe a chin rest that you recommend? The local violin store didn't have anything to offer.
Sosiadh, how very alarming! I'd first check that your hold really is proper. If you're practicing a LOT, yes, you may have problems with your neck, skin, and jaw despite good technique, but if you're gripping at ALL, you may not be holding the fiddle properly. I've always been taught that the fiddle should be resting on your shoulder, with your chin merely holding it in place -- it's not gripped at all, and gravity/weight is holding the fiddle in place against your chin. But there are as many different right ways of holding a fiddle as there are fiddlers.
The chamois pad you saw is probably just a piece of chamois -- I know people who use the most amazing things to cushion the rest. There are some really amazing chin rests out there, including a fairly new one that has a silicone pad instead of the hard top, and several different kinds of covers, and I think I saw a rest a while ago that extends over the side of the fiddle and underneath with the soft bits. Perhaps one of those might help you more than the traditional rests. A search on the Web would probably net you quite a few different kinds of rest.
You might want to find a local classical violin teacher and have them check your hold to make sure that the harm to your neck isn't being aggravated by improper technique (they should watch you play for about ten minutes and then give you some comments, and then try the advice with them watching; don't be surprised if it's like learning the fiddle all over again), and also check with your doctor to see whether there isn't a health problem that is being aggravated by the fiddle.
Remember -- no pain, no pain. Pain is your body's way of saying "stop that, you silly thing, you!" and it's always worth listening to it. Every fiddle player should visit a dentist once a year and have them check whether a visit to an orthodontist might be a good idea -- fiddlers of all sorts are very susceptible to TMJ and bite problems.
Wow. Have you seen a doctor? Some fiddlers get a semi-permanent bruise or callous on their neck (the notorious fiddle hickey), but I've never heard anyone complain about it being outright painful. I sometimes get the red mark during a long session, but it's always gone by morning, and I've never felt a lump associated with it.
A few years back I thought fiddling was making my neck blotchy, but a dermatologist friend convinced me it was sun damage.
Some players put a cloth or chamois over the chin rest to keep sweat from marring the fiddle varnish. A napped-finish piece of cotton (like a diaper) works well--not slippery. But I've never liked the extra layer between me and the instrument.
Did we come across as too alarmist? I don't mean to imply that the lump might be some awful problem. It's probably just your skin's reaction to all that contact with the fiddle. But there might be a lotion or simple procedure to deal with it.
Sosiadh, My Lord! How many hours are you playing a day??? I don't think there are any doctors on thesession .org (is there a doctor in the chat room?), but if I had to guess, if sounds like you might have an allergic reaction to the varnish. Is is a new fiddle perhaps? If the cloth isn't working for you (which might be slipping off periodically and irritating your skin), try wearing that turtle neck when you play and see if that gives you some relief. Try not to let the fiddle touch your skin at all, and if you don't have any improvement shortly, a visit to the dermatologist would be a good idea. Also, stepping away from the fiddle for a few days can be the best practise of all, especially if you've really been working at it. When you pick it up again, everything feels really nice and easy. Keep in touch and let us know how things turn out. Best of luck!
whew! thanks for that second comment, Will! The old heart was rev'ing up.
I haven't seen a doctor, but have a physical coming up soon and will check with him (although he'll probably notice the red marks right away, they are rather hard to miss). Just to be sure. In the meantime, it sounds like there are some interesting chin rests available - the thought of a gel top sound like heaven. So far, I haven't found anything on line, but I'll keep searching. I don't know about the classical violin teacher, it's a good idea, but for some reason, the thought of playing in front of one makes me cringe. Oddly enough, I'd rather play in front of Kevin Burke! Which makes no sense because I'd *care* about Kevin Burke's opinion.
The folks at Roberstons and Sons Violins in Albuquerque would steer you in the right direction on chinrests, shoulder rests, and other accessories. Remember that the chin rest and shoulder rest work together--it's work tinkering with different set ups to find what's right for you. I spent 3 hours in a violin shop once just trying on different chin rests.
Johnsons Strings (www.johnsonstrings.com) also carries chin rest pads--foam lined covers for your chin rest. Most are under $20.
Not that I'm suggesting this as an option( , but I like the "padding" I get from my beard--keeps me from sticking to the chin rest or chafing from the friction.
Also, some skin discoloration on the neck from holding the instrument is normal for some people. Not really much different from building up callouses on your fingertips from playing. My earlier comment about the fiddle hickey is not something I made up--that's what fiddlers and violinists who play *a lot* call them.
growing a beard is right out, although they are doing wonders with hormone theraphy these days... fiddle hickey, hmm, well, I *am* in love with my fiddle (no, not enough to grow a beard) *snicker*.
A friend of mine who teaches Suzuki violin keeps a basket of different kinds of chin and shoulder rests, and it's not unknown for fiddlers to sit at her house with that basket for several hours, putting 'em on and taking 'em off, trying different combinations, trying more different combinations, etc.
Let us know if you find that gel chin rest. I think I'll do a little looking -- wish I could remember where I'd seen it...
A good friend of mine developed a monster boil on his neck, but I think the story that it exploded during public performance, and took the patina off the front of the fiddle has been somewhat added to in the telling. Still, the boil became known as Geoffrey, who has pupated into a fine callous, and is about to have a tune composed in his honour. Not much help, I know, but it's a way of celebrating a seemingly unavoidable repetitive injury.
Ewwww, Skipjack! hehehe. Sosaidth, Kevin's right, it could just be an allergic reaction to either the varnish or to the metal bits holding your various pieces on (or the plastic, depending on your shoulder and chinrests). Try putting a piece of chamois or other non-slip something between you and the fiddle and see if that helps over a period of about a month.
Man, skipjack, that's soooo gross! If mine gets a tune composed for it, I'll be sure to dedicate it to you, hehehe. It *is* a new violin, got it less than 2 months ago. Darn, I hope it's not an allergy to the varnish. I'll let you know how the chamois works, thanks Zina.
Sosiadh, try keeping a clean cotton hanky or other piece of cloth between your face and the chinrest. Also try washing your face with a mild, hypo-allergenic soap immediately before and after practicing (even during, if it's a particularly long run). Also clean off the chinrest before & after you play. You're probably experiencing contact dermatitis caused by a combination of the varnish and your own sweat. It could also be clogged pores. If the problem doesn't clear up, please do see a Dr., as even a minor chronic irritation can turn into something worse if ignored.
Why don't you try rubbing sudacrem on it to stop the irritation. I play a lot and have a constant knot under and red mark on myneck. I had it checked out by the doctor and he said it was ok. Get it seen to if you are worried.
The Violin Hickey is something you'll see on nearly every violin/viola player in a professional or university orchestra. My jawbone itself is a bit flatter on the left side than the right, since I began playing before my bones had stopped growing.
I had a friend who practiced a lot, and he had a lump, like you described... turned out he had a cyst from so much playing that had to be removed. Not to scare you or anything, lol... have a doctor check it out if it gets much more painful.
There are, in major music shops (violin shops specifically) that carry foam/chamois chinrest covers that either fit around the chinrest or are adhesive to the top of the rest.
They are right though, watch your tension in your neck and jaw... does your whole jaw hurt when you are done practicing?
You fiddlers are the lucky ones, you can play with no contact with the jaw at all if you want... kind of taboo with classical playing.
Good luck, and congrats, the Violin Hickey is a battle scar most musicians want... have fun with it, don't hide it!
Hmmm... I've been playing violin for over 30 years and I don't have any marks on my neck or jaw. Neither did my teacher, and he'd been playing for almost 50 years! I guess some folks are more prone to it than others...
I've only been playing 2 and a half years, but straightaway I noted the red mark and discomfort. What works for me is the good old chamois (a real, not synthetic, one), which used to keep falling off everytime I put the violin down to find a new book or whatever, so I've customised it by cutting one edge about 2cm bigger than the shape of the chin rest, and then sewing, using sewing elastic in the bobbin at the bottom, near the edge of the shape. The length left goes over the tailpiece of the fiddle and under the shoulder rest and stays wonderfully in place whatever I do, and protects my neck. I do hope you find something that works for you! All the best.
Kitty
I've played for about 6 years, and never got a hickey (although I have friends from the classical music world who have them BIG time.) I've always played with a big wad of soft cloth that wraps over the chin rest, around the fiddle and between the shoulder rest and my shoulder. I find it very comfortable. Absorbs sweat, stays cool in the summer and warm in the winter.. etc.
At first I used a big piece of leopard print flannel (left over from Halloween), but my spouse/guitar accompanist objected to it on the grounds of style. Then I got a chunk of (black) polar fleece. It works so well, I never felt like investing in a chamois.
I've played the cello since I was 9, and after a few years I started to get a little patch of dark, calloused skin on my sternum. I stuffed a fold of cloth between me and the cello, and it went away. Actually, that was where I first used the leopard print flannel. When I switched to fiddle, I just grabbed that cloth without thinking.
(Although I admit, I did get up from the computer to go squint at my neck in the bathroom mirror. I must be very suggestable)
It turns out that there were a multitude of problems. First, the splotchy, itchy red marks were apparently due to an allergic reaction of some sort. Benadryl combined with JeffK's suggestions took care of them. Next, I went down to Robertson's in Abq and checked out their chinrests - their selection was pretty minimal (5 different types, 3 of which were the same shape) but I found one that was much better and didn't cut into my neck. That took care of most the rest of the divits and marks, leaving the lump (or "Bubba" as I called him). Which by then was looming large in my mind, thanks Brad , Anyway, I had a classical violinist friend watch me play. She suggested a few adjustments and position changes, gawd, you weren't kidding Zina, it is *hard* to change the way you hold your instrument. And now, the lump is pretty much gone and there is just an almost normal looking red mark (the violin hickey, I presume) left. Just in time, it has gotten way too hot to wear turtlenecks. Thanks, everyone!
lump and/or red marks on neck?
lump and/or red marks on neck?
I've been playing a lot recently and the red marks on my neck appear to be becoming permanent, along with a sort of small lump/knot under the reddest and largest mark. I can deal with the comments about the rash on my neck and the stares from strangers, although I've been wearing a lot of turtlenecks and scarfs lately :^). But I'm finding myself shifting the fiddle around in an unconcious effort to ease the pain, which is not helping my playing at all.
The shoulder rest I have is comfortable, and I don't think I'm gripping the instrument really tightly. If anything, I am more relaxed that ever, thanks to the helpful hints from you guys. I've tried using different clothes over the chin rest and its attachment posts, but can't play with a thick one, and a thin one, while it helps reduces the sting ing, doesn't seem to be doing much to reduce the marks. In fact, they are getting worse.
Other than stopping playing (it is not that bad, it is never that bad), does anyone have a suggestion? I have a vague memory of seeing someone once with some kind of chamois looking thing over the chin rest. Has anyone used something like that or perhaps know where I could get one?
Or maybe a chin rest that you recommend? The local violin store didn't have anything to offer.
Thanks,
Sosiadh
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Sosiadh, how very alarming! I'd first check that your hold really is proper. If you're practicing a LOT, yes, you may have problems with your neck, skin, and jaw despite good technique, but if you're gripping at ALL, you may not be holding the fiddle properly. I've always been taught that the fiddle should be resting on your shoulder, with your chin merely holding it in place -- it's not gripped at all, and gravity/weight is holding the fiddle in place against your chin. But there are as many different right ways of holding a fiddle as there are fiddlers.
The chamois pad you saw is probably just a piece of chamois -- I know people who use the most amazing things to cushion the rest. There are some really amazing chin rests out there, including a fairly new one that has a silicone pad instead of the hard top, and several different kinds of covers, and I think I saw a rest a while ago that extends over the side of the fiddle and underneath with the soft bits. Perhaps one of those might help you more than the traditional rests. A search on the Web would probably net you quite a few different kinds of rest.
You might want to find a local classical violin teacher and have them check your hold to make sure that the harm to your neck isn't being aggravated by improper technique (they should watch you play for about ten minutes and then give you some comments, and then try the advice with them watching; don't be surprised if it's like learning the fiddle all over again), and also check with your doctor to see whether there isn't a health problem that is being aggravated by the fiddle.
Remember -- no pain, no pain.
Pain is your body's way of saying "stop that, you silly thing, you!" and it's always worth listening to it. Every fiddle player should visit a dentist once a year and have them check whether a visit to an orthodontist might be a good idea -- fiddlers of all sorts are very susceptible to TMJ and bite problems.
Zina
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Wow. Have you seen a doctor? Some fiddlers get a semi-permanent bruise or callous on their neck (the notorious fiddle hickey), but I've never heard anyone complain about it being outright painful. I sometimes get the red mark during a long session, but it's always gone by morning, and I've never felt a lump associated with it.
A few years back I thought fiddling was making my neck blotchy, but a dermatologist friend convinced me it was sun damage.
Some players put a cloth or chamois over the chin rest to keep sweat from marring the fiddle varnish. A napped-finish piece of cotton (like a diaper) works well--not slippery. But I've never liked the extra layer between me and the instrument.
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Did we come across as too alarmist? I don't mean to imply that the lump might be some awful problem. It's probably just your skin's reaction to all that contact with the fiddle. But there might be a lotion or simple procedure to deal with it.
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Sosiadh, My Lord! How many hours are you playing a day??? I don't think there are any doctors on thesession .org (is there a doctor in the chat room?), but if I had to guess, if sounds like you might have an allergic reaction to the varnish. Is is a new fiddle perhaps? If the cloth isn't working for you (which might be slipping off periodically and irritating your skin), try wearing that turtle neck when you play and see if that gives you some relief. Try not to let the fiddle touch your skin at all, and if you don't have any improvement shortly, a visit to the dermatologist would be a good idea. Also, stepping away from the fiddle for a few days can be the best practise of all, especially if you've really been working at it. When you pick it up again, everything feels really nice and easy. Keep in touch and let us know how things turn out. Best of luck!
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
whew! thanks for that second comment, Will! The old heart was rev'ing up.
I haven't seen a doctor, but have a physical coming up soon and will check with him (although he'll probably notice the red marks right away, they are rather hard to miss). Just to be sure. In the meantime, it sounds like there are some interesting chin rests available - the thought of a gel top sound like heaven. So far, I haven't found anything on line, but I'll keep searching. I don't know about the classical violin teacher, it's a good idea, but for some reason, the thought of playing in front of one makes me cringe. Oddly enough, I'd rather play in front of Kevin Burke! Which makes no sense because I'd *care* about Kevin Burke's opinion.
Thanks again you guys!
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
The folks at Roberstons and Sons Violins in Albuquerque would steer you in the right direction on chinrests, shoulder rests, and other accessories. Remember that the chin rest and shoulder rest work together--it's work tinkering with different set ups to find what's right for you. I spent 3 hours in a violin shop once just trying on different chin rests.
Johnsons Strings (www.johnsonstrings.com) also carries chin rest pads--foam lined covers for your chin rest. Most are under $20.
Not that I'm suggesting this as an option(
, but I like the "padding" I get from my beard--keeps me from sticking to the chin rest or chafing from the friction.
Also, some skin discoloration on the neck from holding the instrument is normal for some people. Not really much different from building up callouses on your fingertips from playing. My earlier comment about the fiddle hickey is not something I made up--that's what fiddlers and violinists who play *a lot* call them.
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
growing a beard is right out, although they are doing wonders with hormone theraphy these days... fiddle hickey, hmm, well, I *am* in love with my fiddle (no, not enough to grow a beard) *snicker*.
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
A friend of mine who teaches Suzuki violin keeps a basket of different kinds of chin and shoulder rests, and it's not unknown for fiddlers to sit at her house with that basket for several hours, putting 'em on and taking 'em off, trying different combinations, trying more different combinations, etc.
Let us know if you find that gel chin rest. I think I'll do a little looking -- wish I could remember where I'd seen it...
Zina
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
A good friend of mine developed a monster boil on his neck, but I think the story that it exploded during public performance, and took the patina off the front of the fiddle has been somewhat added to in the telling. Still, the boil became known as Geoffrey, who has pupated into a fine callous, and is about to have a tune composed in his honour. Not much help, I know, but it's a way of celebrating a seemingly unavoidable repetitive injury.
Skipjack
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by Skipjack
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Ewwww, Skipjack! hehehe. Sosaidth, Kevin's right, it could just be an allergic reaction to either the varnish or to the metal bits holding your various pieces on (or the plastic, depending on your shoulder and chinrests). Try putting a piece of chamois or other non-slip something between you and the fiddle and see if that helps over a period of about a month.
Zina
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Man, skipjack, that's soooo gross! If mine gets a tune composed for it, I'll be sure to dedicate it to you, hehehe. It *is* a new violin, got it less than 2 months ago. Darn, I hope it's not an allergy to the varnish. I'll let you know how the chamois works, thanks Zina.
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Sosiadh, try keeping a clean cotton hanky or other piece of cloth between your face and the chinrest. Also try washing your face with a mild, hypo-allergenic soap immediately before and after practicing (even during, if it's a particularly long run). Also clean off the chinrest before & after you play. You're probably experiencing contact dermatitis caused by a combination of the varnish and your own sweat. It could also be clogged pores. If the problem doesn't clear up, please do see a Dr., as even a minor chronic irritation can turn into something worse if ignored.
JeffK
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by JeffK627
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Why don't you try rubbing sudacrem on it to stop the irritation. I play a lot and have a constant knot under and red mark on myneck. I had it checked out by the doctor and he said it was ok. Get it seen to if you are worried.
Boo
# Posted on April 20th 2002 by boo
Perfectly normal!
The Violin Hickey is something you'll see on nearly every violin/viola player in a professional or university orchestra. My jawbone itself is a bit flatter on the left side than the right, since I began playing before my bones had stopped growing.
I had a friend who practiced a lot, and he had a lump, like you described... turned out he had a cyst from so much playing that had to be removed. Not to scare you or anything, lol... have a doctor check it out if it gets much more painful.
There are, in major music shops (violin shops specifically) that carry foam/chamois chinrest covers that either fit around the chinrest or are adhesive to the top of the rest.
They are right though, watch your tension in your neck and jaw... does your whole jaw hurt when you are done practicing?
You fiddlers are the lucky ones, you can play with no contact with the jaw at all if you want... kind of taboo with classical playing.
Good luck, and congrats, the Violin Hickey is a battle scar most musicians want... have fun with it, don't hide it!
# Posted on April 21st 2002 by EireLibra
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Hmmm... I've been playing violin for over 30 years and I don't have any marks on my neck or jaw. Neither did my teacher, and he'd been playing for almost 50 years! I guess some folks are more prone to it than others...
# Posted on April 22nd 2002 by JeffK627
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
I've only been playing 2 and a half years, but straightaway I noted the red mark and discomfort. What works for me is the good old chamois (a real, not synthetic, one), which used to keep falling off everytime I put the violin down to find a new book or whatever, so I've customised it by cutting one edge about 2cm bigger than the shape of the chin rest, and then sewing, using sewing elastic in the bobbin at the bottom, near the edge of the shape. The length left goes over the tailpiece of the fiddle and under the shoulder rest and stays wonderfully in place whatever I do, and protects my neck. I do hope you find something that works for you! All the best.
Kitty
# Posted on April 22nd 2002 by Kitty Herbert
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
I've played for about 6 years, and never got a hickey (although I have friends from the classical music world who have them BIG time.) I've always played with a big wad of soft cloth that wraps over the chin rest, around the fiddle and between the shoulder rest and my shoulder. I find it very comfortable. Absorbs sweat, stays cool in the summer and warm in the winter.. etc.
At first I used a big piece of leopard print flannel (left over from Halloween), but my spouse/guitar accompanist objected to it on the grounds of style. Then I got a chunk of (black) polar fleece. It works so well, I never felt like investing in a chamois.
I've played the cello since I was 9, and after a few years I started to get a little patch of dark, calloused skin on my sternum. I stuffed a fold of cloth between me and the cello, and it went away. Actually, that was where I first used the leopard print flannel. When I switched to fiddle, I just grabbed that cloth without thinking.
(Although I admit, I did get up from the computer to go squint at my neck in the bathroom mirror. I must be very suggestable)
# Posted on April 24th 2002 by JulieDunne
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
It turns out that there were a multitude of problems. First, the splotchy, itchy red marks were apparently due to an allergic reaction of some sort. Benadryl combined with JeffK's suggestions took care of them. Next, I went down to Robertson's in Abq and checked out their chinrests - their selection was pretty minimal (5 different types, 3 of which were the same shape) but I found one that was much better and didn't cut into my neck. That took care of most the rest of the divits and marks, leaving the lump (or "Bubba" as I called him). Which by then was looming large in my mind, thanks Brad
, Anyway, I had a classical violinist friend watch me play. She suggested a few adjustments and position changes, gawd, you weren't kidding Zina, it is *hard* to change the way you hold your instrument. And now, the lump is pretty much gone and there is just an almost normal looking red mark (the violin hickey, I presume) left. Just in time, it has gotten way too hot to wear turtlenecks. Thanks, everyone!
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: lump and/or red marks on neck?
Heh. I'm glad we won't be playing Bubba's Hornpipe anytime soon, then, Sos. Good to hear your neck is back to pretty much normal.
Zina
# Posted on May 20th 2002 by Zina Lee