I was just wondering, since I haven't been a member long to this site, what are the boundaries and limitations of trad style music? Is it always straight up tunes? I've heard (and read here) that there are some players that change the style around, or add something that sounds irish but you can't be sure?? That sort of thing. Thanks!
I also apologize as I'm sure that this discussion was probably brought up before.
Well, as all people are different, so is their aproge to ITM. There are people (I know there are, 'cause I know some of them) who think ITM should just be that and all that comes out of Ireland (in the 50's and 60's) is the good music (and I live in Holland...so that's saying a lot). There are also people (and I'm one of them) who think that ITM should first be about having fun with good music (and I'm Dutch, so there you go) no matter how you play it (just play it in key...PEASE...). I even know someone who plays ITM on the clarinet and sometimes adds a bit of European folk to it, which sounds great. So, play how you like it as long as it's in key (and Irish most of the time).
yes i agree. i've heard some amazing irish music that wasn't completely made up of tunes one after another. i just wasn't sure if that was still considered trad music?
For me, the boundaries depend on who I want to play with, and who I want to play like. I live in Quebec, learning the tunes of people I want to play with, many of whom happen to be Quebecois, so I'm accumulating a lot of tunes that would be scowled at in a pure-drop session.
Try to be as informed as possible about what region your tunes come from. Don't get your Shetland tunes mixed up with your Cape Breton tunes, or your Donegal tunes mixed up with your Romanian gypsy tunes. Keep them all in seperate files, and if you ever go to a session like Jack's, draw from the "Irish" file exclusively.
If you're going to mix things up, do it at an open minded session, and make sure you do it on purpose, or you'll get a slagging.
(Although it's worth noting that sometimes a session might _seem_ open-minded, when in actual fact it's a session that *wants* to be pure-drop but has been overwhelmed by open-minded players. In this case, you might truck along having a wonderful time with your session buddies for months while an irritable faction of purists bitches about you while your back is turned.)
Why do people feel that Irish traditional music needs to be so inclusive? Why do we need the extra term "pure-drop". (And from where in hill did that term come?)
Sure, new things can be tried, but these new things do not automatically become traditional Irish music. Tradition implies that there is a history to it.
I play French/Canadian tunes now and then. Sometimes I'll throw one in for the craic, but I do like to group them together. But then it's French/Canadian trad -- right? But played in the Irish style by clueless Yanks. I also play French tunes and Galician tunes occasionally. I have an Afghani tune, and a Peruvian tune as well. (The Peruvian tune makes a great polka or march) But I know when I’m leaving the genre of ITM.
Honestly Kerri, just because I don’t like people noodling on tunes they don’t know doesn’t mean I’m some sort of stiff lifeless bore. Give me a break already.
Jode, I think of pure-drop as a good thing. (I think it has something to do with whiskey.) Like putting on a nice, straight, CD where the strength of the playing rather than orchestral backing or studio trickery makes it enjoyable, and sighing "ah, that's the pure drop!" in contentment. So I don't see how anyone could find the term offensive.
I don't think you're a stiff lifeless bore, Jack, but I've listened to the MP3 recordings from your sessions and concluded (wrongly, perhaps?) that your session fits the category described above. I've also read miles of your comments lamenting the insensitivity of certain visiting musicians.
Anyway, what you're saying about grouping them together actually seems to *agree* with my comment above, that it's important to know where the tunes come from and not mix them up unintentionally.
Back to Jode: "why to people feel that ITM needs to be so inclusive?" The fiddle-picker-upper didn't ask about *Irish* traditional music, specifically. Just the boundaries of "trad", and as Jack points out, it's all trad. You can sub-categorize it into tiny regional slices from one end of the globe to the other. That sounds inclusive to me. Have you heard of some mysterious tribe I'm unaware of that doesn't have some form of traditional music?
I chose to make the point about being aware of which tradition your tunes come from and trying not to impose one tradition on the "last ruminants" of another because of the ambiguity of the original question.
Honestly, I think you're both altogether too sensitive.
Just to be *extremely* specific and to avoid further misunderstanding, when I say "the category described above" I mean the lovely category of "pure drop" as described above, not the category of "stiff lifeless bore" alluded to earlier in the sentence.
Kerri, where did you hear mp3s of a session I was in? Also, if you read my "laments" as you call them, they don't have to do with "visiting" musicians so much as just plain rude musicians. I don't think anyone here would welcome rude musicians to their sessions... not even you. But your comments give the impression that you think a sesh myself and my cohorts are hosting would be some sort of formal affair with strict parimeters and very little fun. You'd have to do more than listen to an mp3 to get a sense of what we're really like. For example; the mp3 gives no indication that we play in the nude. Not only that, but you couldn't see the person at the next table milking the tits of a bull either. All these things add up to what our sessions are like.
lol. Well, that's a very good point, about the bull and the nudity (although I have heard rumours). You do lament, sometimes. I won't budge on that. Lots of people west of the ocean lament. I don't blame them. It's tough to find a session outside of Ireland with the inherent qualities of many sessions *in* Ireland (technical skill, extensive repertoire, self-restraint on the part of newcomers, limited numbers, etc.). I admit it. There you go.
I never said I don't think sessions with firm parameters are fun. I'm always having fun, except when I'm not.
My comments are only meant to give the impression that I'm an irreverent shit-disturber. I'm terribly sorry if they've been misconstrued...
I'm off to see Gino's blues band. I don't know if there are "punters" at blues gigs, but this will be a nice change. Hopefully, being the significant other of one of the musicians, I can still get a couple of free beers.
Kerri! I am not taking the whole pure drop thing as an insult, I just am trying to understand its origin and why it is a sub-category below ITM. Or maybe why we need it as a subset of Irish traditional music.
And I interpreted the original question as ITM, and not worldwide trad. I mean, what boundaries are there if it is the whole world you are talking about? The final frontier? Each tradition would have its basic boundaries and definition. It's what differentiates it from other traditions.
And thanks for calling me sensitive! At least you stopped before new-agey.
My evening's just begining, Jimmy. First, it's of to Minh's Garden for some coconut curry chicken... then it's off to the pub to play for drunks... and become one of them ourselves.
It seems to me "picking up that fiddle" hasn't got a straight answer to the original question.
As you can see from the above discussion, whenever the question "What is traditional?" is raised, people tend to get a little emotional. The reason for this is that "traditional" is partly descriptive and partly evaluative--partly it is used to give objective information, and partly to praise.
And because so many people these days are so completely relativistic, they get emotional when someone even mentions the topic. After all, suppose someone offers a definition of "traditional." Then their music might not be traditional, and thus not praiseworthy in that respect; and everything must be potentially praiseworthy in every respect, in our brave new world of *total* inclusiveness.
This then gets the "traditionalists" angry, because they think that there really *is* something important about tradition, and maintaining traditions, and "it's whatever you like" grates on them.
I think the anti-traditionalists would do better to say, "Don't use the word 'traditional'" or "It doesn't matter whether something is traditional or not." This would be honest and defensible. Instead, they attempt to water down the concept of traditionality by being over-inclusive--which completely defeats the very purpose of the concept of a tradition. Traditions, by their very nature, are exclusive. Not, necessarily, in the sense of excluding *people*, but in the sense of excluding *styles* (and other things, e.g., instruments) that are not part of the tradition. To define a tradition *very, very* broadly is essentially to advocate--dishonestly--that the tradition should not exist. After all, many people no doubt think that traditions *have* no right to exist, precisely *because* they are exclusive.
So, given that there *is* a tradition of Irish (folk) music, what are its boundaries and limitations? The best way to find out is to listen to a broad variety of music that goes under the heading "Irish traditional music," because this will put any further generalizations into perspective.
Definitely there are songs as well as tunes, and tunes can include not only dance tunes, but slow airs, marches, and other listening pieces as well. In most *sessions*, you'll hear mostly dance tunes, and especially reels and double jigs. Session music has no special claim on exemplifying traditional music, though. It is well-known that sessions are a relatively recent invention--just in the last few generations. That is, sessions are not really traditional, yet. (We're certainly getting there.)
There are certain musicians who are *treated* as Irish trad players by some, but whom *other* players want to regard as *outside* the tradition. But who is "outside the tradition" (in the cold, as it were!) is obviously a matter of considerable debate.
There is certain music that is definitely outside the ITM tradition on *anybody's* view, like straight-up jazz and rock. Then there's music that the most inclusive sorts want to include as part of a *tradition* of Irish music, like Celtic rock, Enya (no slam on Enya!), etc. Most people who actually *use* the term without their tongues in their cheeks do not consider Celtic rock and Enya traditional in any sense. Probably the most heated debates are among those who think that the tradition is defined by how people played 80 or 100 years ago, and those who think otherwise.
Those who think it is defined by how people played 80 or 100 years ago, "traditional" means music played solo, or maybe occasionally in duets, and in any case not accompanied. So, guitar and piano (and other accompanying instruments) are not traditional instruments on this (the most conservative) view.
There are others who are willing to include more varied configurations of musicians under the umbrella of "traditional"--ceili bands, other ensembles, etc.--as long as they play their individual instruments in a style consistent enough with the standard-bearers of the tradition of two or three generations ago. By this standard, Eileen Ivers and Sharon Shannon wouldn't be counted as traditional, because they use a lot of rock instrumentation and jazz styles.
And then there are more moderately inclusive sorts--maybe festival organizers--who will call "traditional" any act that performs traditional songs or tunes, regardless of instrumentation or style.
Here's my view, for what it's worth. (So: IMHO!) Personally, I like my terms to be *useful* if I'm going to use them at all. So, of what use or function is the concept of "traditional music"? First, it is useful for marking of music that is part of an aural, passed-down way of making music. So in order to define ITM, you've got to determine *what elements* of Irish music *have* been passed down from generation to generation, for a few generations at least. Well, there are certain styles, instruments, and ways of performing that are *definitely* traditional in this sense. Solo pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, and a few other instruments *definitely* are traditional in this sense. But playing in duos and even large groups is also traditional in this sense--think the Tulla Ceili Band, and other ceili bands.
There are aspects of *style* that are traditional and nontraditional, depending on the instrument.
But bands, like (I'll pick my favorite) Altan? The players' styles (I mean, the fiddlers and button accordion player) are reasonably similar to their influences--so, pretty traditional. But is there really a tradition of this sort of band-playing they do together? I'm not sure; I don't really think so, although I could be convinced otherwise.
Nevertheless, *some* such bands *are* traditional in the sense that they play traditional tunes in traditional settings and in traditional styles. If anything is non-traditional about the likes of Altan, Dervish, and Danu, it would be that the *kind* of arranged playing they do has not really been passed on for more than a generation. (They also use non-traditional instrumentation; there is no *tradition* of didgeridoo playing within the Irish tradition.)
"Traditional" music practically implies "folk" music--i.e., music that "the folk" play in their kitchens for their own enjoyment, by ear, passing it on to future generations. Clearly, a lot of what passes for Irish traditional music is not *folk* music in this original sense.
The problem of course is that the words "traditional" and "folk" have been appropriated by (1) companies that try to make money by using them as marketing terms, and (2) people who for whatever reason don't want to own up to the fact that the experimentation they do *with* traditional music is not, itself, part of any tradition or folk process. That brings me back to the issues mentioned in the beginning...
One of the complaints that I've heard about the label, "World Music" is that it puts the same background percussion in the fusion of all the genres of traditional music, thus creating a World Soup of traditional music rather than distinctive and unique styles and sounds. I tend to agree that great attention to detail is important to preserve each original genre in this day and age. "World Music" has its place, and has successfully drawn interest to particular genres of traditional music -- but it must stay in its place.
Hey Larry,
if you spent a fraction as much time in filling out your biog, as you do pontificating about definitions of what Irish music consists of, we'd have a much clearer target to aim at if we wanted to try to refute you
I take it this is the same Larry Sanger of Wikipedia fame whose postings I have often read (with great interest) on the Irtrad list. If it is you Larry then adding a few words or links in your Bio would be a good idea -just stick in a link to your home page. It means that people have some idea who they are dealing with.
Cheers
Donough♪♫
Thanks to Larry for reviving this discussion after the nearly fatal hijacking.
One point to add that muddies the water a bit, though:
I believe that when folklorists go out collecting tunes and songs from the ordinary folks who have had the music passed down to them over the generations, they find that many (most?) of these people don't view themselves as defending their tradition from outside influences. Often they have simply been isolated from outside influences by lack of communication. When they do discover new styles and material that they like, they willingly adopt it.
Aberdeenshire tinker Jane Turriff, who must be pushing 90 now, is regarded as a great source of old ballads, many learned from her mother. But when folklorists went to record her, she also sang them Jimmie Rodgers' songs, complete with yodelling.
According to the Wrigley sisters, the Orkney fiddling tradition very quickly incorporated elements of Django Reinhardt-style jazz when they got short-wave radio broadcasts in the mid-20th century.
I've read other stories like this and heard similar things from collectors, but it's time to get ready to leave for work.
The point is that tradition becomes exclusive when you try to define it from the outside. Within the tradition it's just people playing the music they know and like.
Larry's posting there was a tour-de-force of this semantic quagmire.
My initial reaction is , "Don't use the word 'traditional'" or "It doesn't matter whether something is traditional or not." This is why I prefer the term diddly. But on closer inspection of my feelings towards this music I find myself defending it's traditions. There's another topic above this one about bohem system flutes and while I have nothing against them, I defend the use of the simple system wooden flute, not because I just think it sounds better, but because all those years of tradition that went into flute music happened on it. The music was created on it, so it sounds beter on it. All that effort was not for nothing
The fact that some or most standard-bearers of the tradition do not defend their traditions in the same way that revivalists (like some or most of us) do doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with revivalism, or with protecting traditions. We are reviving their music, not necessarily their attitudes. For instance, Francie Byrne played brass band marches and was reputed to be a little bigoted toward tinker musicians. I don't do either of these things, but I play many of Francie Byrne's tunes. (You might too..."Launching the Boat" is one of his.)
Hi Larry!
At least one standard bearer of the tradition has been defending it - probably too vociferously! (See the various threads discussing Mr. Tansey)
Mark
Agreed, Larry. But defining what belongs to a tradition is mostly done by the revivalists and the academics, from the outside, not by the participants. It's an important thing to do, as is keeping a traditional style going, but it's also important to recognize that doing so isn't really part of the tradition. It's a fine line between helping to keep a tradition alive and being an antiquarian attempting to present a snapshot of the tradition in a time and place of the revivalist's choosing.
Wow. That took so long to compose that my internet connection timed out. I hope it made sense
Definitions of Trad playing?
Definitions of Trad playing?
Hi all! First discussion post!
I was just wondering, since I haven't been a member long to this site, what are the boundaries and limitations of trad style music? Is it always straight up tunes? I've heard (and read here) that there are some players that change the style around, or add something that sounds irish but you can't be sure?? That sort of thing. Thanks!
I also apologize as I'm sure that this discussion was probably brought up before.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by picking up that fiddle
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Well, as all people are different, so is their aproge to ITM. There are people (I know there are, 'cause I know some of them) who think ITM should just be that and all that comes out of Ireland (in the 50's and 60's) is the good music (and I live in Holland...so that's saying a lot). There are also people (and I'm one of them) who think that ITM should first be about having fun with good music (and I'm Dutch, so there you go) no matter how you play it (just play it in key...PEASE...). I even know someone who plays ITM on the clarinet and sometimes adds a bit of European folk to it, which sounds great. So, play how you like it as long as it's in key (and Irish most of the time).
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Dark Raven
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I have grown accustom to listening to ITM that isn't straight tunes, and I really do enjoy it.
It really is about playing music that sounds good. And I agree, it should always be played in key.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
yes i agree. i've heard some amazing irish music that wasn't completely made up of tunes one after another. i just wasn't sure if that was still considered trad music?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by picking up that fiddle
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
The tunes are trade, what some musicians put in between might not be considered trad, but if it sounds good and fun then that's all that matters.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Let's just say (especially these days), it a wide and complex definition! I tend to think that if it sounds good, it is good. Simple as that.
Jim
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
So if I play "Tiny Bubbles" on the clarinet between "The Wise Maid" and "The Mason's Apron" -- it will be trad? (as long as I have fun of course)
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I love snobs.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
play what sounds good.
If someone happens to play a trad piece on a clarinet, and it sounds good..then yes, it is trad.
I believe it is much easier on the ears then 10 out of tune instruments at a session playing a trad tune
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
There are no boundaries, just small fences to be jumped over.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by tirvaluk
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Don't be ridiculous, Jack. 'Tiny Bubbles' wouldn't fit in at all between 'The Wise Maid' and 'The Mason's Apron'.
It would be better between "The Wise Maid" and "Coolie'"s.
Jim
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
This must be New Recruits Day or something.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
longevity...
not always too convincing.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Holy cow, what's going on here?
On a hot summer day, the sound of the air conditioning coming on while I am playing the fiddle sounds great to me.
I've got a trad air conditioner.
But wait, I am not playing in the same key as the air conditioner.
Oh man! You mean I haven't been playing traditional music all these years?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
U sacrafice being in tune over making sure what you are playing is perfectly trad?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
So Tiny Bubbles is a "trad piece"?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
What?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I said:
"So if I play "Tiny Bubbles" on the clarinet between "The Wise Maid" and "The Mason's Apron" -- it will be trad?"
Then you said:
"If someone happens to play a trad piece on a clarinet, and it sounds good..then yes, it is trad."
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
What key would you be playing that in, Jack?
And is the clarinet in tune, or out of tune?
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
In the key of F for fun. It doesn't matter if I'm in tune because there isn't 10 of me.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
but at a session..there would be.
unless people go to sessions simply to play alone.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by BTCpz
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
from the comments i read that you post there better not be 10 of you!
jk
but i do like the "Key of F for Fun" reply!
how about E for Exciting??
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by picking up that fiddle
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
For me, the boundaries depend on who I want to play with, and who I want to play like. I live in Quebec, learning the tunes of people I want to play with, many of whom happen to be Quebecois, so I'm accumulating a lot of tunes that would be scowled at in a pure-drop session.
Try to be as informed as possible about what region your tunes come from. Don't get your Shetland tunes mixed up with your Cape Breton tunes, or your Donegal tunes mixed up with your Romanian gypsy tunes. Keep them all in seperate files, and if you ever go to a session like Jack's, draw from the "Irish" file exclusively.
If you're going to mix things up, do it at an open minded session, and make sure you do it on purpose, or you'll get a slagging.
(Although it's worth noting that sometimes a session might _seem_ open-minded, when in actual fact it's a session that *wants* to be pure-drop but has been overwhelmed by open-minded players. In this case, you might truck along having a wonderful time with your session buddies for months while an irritable faction of purists bitches about you while your back is turned.)
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Why do people feel that Irish traditional music needs to be so inclusive? Why do we need the extra term "pure-drop". (And from where in hill did that term come?)
Sure, new things can be tried, but these new things do not automatically become traditional Irish music. Tradition implies that there is a history to it.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Jode
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I play French/Canadian tunes now and then. Sometimes I'll throw one in for the craic, but I do like to group them together. But then it's French/Canadian trad -- right? But played in the Irish style by clueless Yanks. I also play French tunes and Galician tunes occasionally. I have an Afghani tune, and a Peruvian tune as well. (The Peruvian tune makes a great polka or march) But I know when I’m leaving the genre of ITM.
Honestly Kerri, just because I don’t like people noodling on tunes they don’t know doesn’t mean I’m some sort of stiff lifeless bore. Give me a break already.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Jode, I think of pure-drop as a good thing. (I think it has something to do with whiskey.) Like putting on a nice, straight, CD where the strength of the playing rather than orchestral backing or studio trickery makes it enjoyable, and sighing "ah, that's the pure drop!" in contentment. So I don't see how anyone could find the term offensive.
I don't think you're a stiff lifeless bore, Jack, but I've listened to the MP3 recordings from your sessions and concluded (wrongly, perhaps?) that your session fits the category described above. I've also read miles of your comments lamenting the insensitivity of certain visiting musicians.
Anyway, what you're saying about grouping them together actually seems to *agree* with my comment above, that it's important to know where the tunes come from and not mix them up unintentionally.
Back to Jode: "why to people feel that ITM needs to be so inclusive?" The fiddle-picker-upper didn't ask about *Irish* traditional music, specifically. Just the boundaries of "trad", and as Jack points out, it's all trad. You can sub-categorize it into tiny regional slices from one end of the globe to the other. That sounds inclusive to me. Have you heard of some mysterious tribe I'm unaware of that doesn't have some form of traditional music?
I chose to make the point about being aware of which tradition your tunes come from and trying not to impose one tradition on the "last ruminants" of another because of the ambiguity of the original question.
Honestly, I think you're both altogether too sensitive.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Just to be *extremely* specific and to avoid further misunderstanding, when I say "the category described above" I mean the lovely category of "pure drop" as described above, not the category of "stiff lifeless bore" alluded to earlier in the sentence.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Kerri, where did you hear mp3s of a session I was in? Also, if you read my "laments" as you call them, they don't have to do with "visiting" musicians so much as just plain rude musicians. I don't think anyone here would welcome rude musicians to their sessions... not even you. But your comments give the impression that you think a sesh myself and my cohorts are hosting would be some sort of formal affair with strict parimeters and very little fun. You'd have to do more than listen to an mp3 to get a sense of what we're really like. For example; the mp3 gives no indication that we play in the nude. Not only that, but you couldn't see the person at the next table milking the tits of a bull either. All these things add up to what our sessions are like.
# Posted on October 22nd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
woo-hoo!!! naked sessions! that explains the no-noodling rule.
can i come?
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Sure... as long as you don't play accordion. The random screams when you get pinched will often throw us off the beat.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
lol. Well, that's a very good point, about the bull and the nudity (although I have heard rumours). You do lament, sometimes. I won't budge on that. Lots of people west of the ocean lament. I don't blame them. It's tough to find a session outside of Ireland with the inherent qualities of many sessions *in* Ireland (technical skill, extensive repertoire, self-restraint on the part of newcomers, limited numbers, etc.). I admit it. There you go.
I never said I don't think sessions with firm parameters are fun. I'm always having fun, except when I'm not.
My comments are only meant to give the impression that I'm an irreverent shit-disturber. I'm terribly sorry if they've been misconstrued...
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
lol, searai. When you put it like that, I completely understand...
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
you'd want to make sure the place is heated. you wouldn't want anyone sticking to their banjo.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I could think af a good place to stick a banjo...
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
in the hands of a loving, delicate, thoughtfull banjo player?
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Or perhaps an arrogant, pushy banjo player with a pair of speedos hanging off the back of his chair?
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
ahh... that's offside!
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
and cheeky
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
true. mean-spirited. I take it back.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I'm off to see Gino's blues band. I don't know if there are "punters" at blues gigs, but this will be a nice change. Hopefully, being the significant other of one of the musicians, I can still get a couple of free beers.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I'm off to stop procrastinating from packing. I have to move tomorrow.... which explains my flurry of posts after months of silence.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by searai
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Kerri! I am not taking the whole pure drop thing as an insult, I just am trying to understand its origin and why it is a sub-category below ITM. Or maybe why we need it as a subset of Irish traditional music.
And I interpreted the original question as ITM, and not worldwide trad. I mean, what boundaries are there if it is the whole world you are talking about? The final frontier? Each tradition would have its basic boundaries and definition. It's what differentiates it from other traditions.
And thanks for calling me sensitive! At least you stopped before new-agey.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Jode
OK, so I am officially addicted. Imagine that, checking in on the board on a Friday night, and the kids still awake...
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Jode
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
No worries, Jode, Kerri was just being a little New-Edgey..
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
My evening's just begining, Jimmy. First, it's of to Minh's Garden for some coconut curry chicken... then it's off to the pub to play for drunks... and become one of them ourselves.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Last night we played for set dancers... much healthier... for them anyway... I still ended up a drunk.
# Posted on October 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
"Subsets of Irish music" You lot will be drawing Venn diagrams next! Just enjoy it.That's what it's there for.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
It seems to me "picking up that fiddle" hasn't got a straight answer to the original question.
As you can see from the above discussion, whenever the question "What is traditional?" is raised, people tend to get a little emotional. The reason for this is that "traditional" is partly descriptive and partly evaluative--partly it is used to give objective information, and partly to praise.
And because so many people these days are so completely relativistic, they get emotional when someone even mentions the topic. After all, suppose someone offers a definition of "traditional." Then their music might not be traditional, and thus not praiseworthy in that respect; and everything must be potentially praiseworthy in every respect, in our brave new world of *total* inclusiveness.
This then gets the "traditionalists" angry, because they think that there really *is* something important about tradition, and maintaining traditions, and "it's whatever you like" grates on them.
I think the anti-traditionalists would do better to say, "Don't use the word 'traditional'" or "It doesn't matter whether something is traditional or not." This would be honest and defensible. Instead, they attempt to water down the concept of traditionality by being over-inclusive--which completely defeats the very purpose of the concept of a tradition. Traditions, by their very nature, are exclusive. Not, necessarily, in the sense of excluding *people*, but in the sense of excluding *styles* (and other things, e.g., instruments) that are not part of the tradition. To define a tradition *very, very* broadly is essentially to advocate--dishonestly--that the tradition should not exist. After all, many people no doubt think that traditions *have* no right to exist, precisely *because* they are exclusive.
So, given that there *is* a tradition of Irish (folk) music, what are its boundaries and limitations? The best way to find out is to listen to a broad variety of music that goes under the heading "Irish traditional music," because this will put any further generalizations into perspective.
Definitely there are songs as well as tunes, and tunes can include not only dance tunes, but slow airs, marches, and other listening pieces as well. In most *sessions*, you'll hear mostly dance tunes, and especially reels and double jigs. Session music has no special claim on exemplifying traditional music, though. It is well-known that sessions are a relatively recent invention--just in the last few generations. That is, sessions are not really traditional, yet. (We're certainly getting there.)
There are certain musicians who are *treated* as Irish trad players by some, but whom *other* players want to regard as *outside* the tradition. But who is "outside the tradition" (in the cold, as it were!) is obviously a matter of considerable debate.
There is certain music that is definitely outside the ITM tradition on *anybody's* view, like straight-up jazz and rock. Then there's music that the most inclusive sorts want to include as part of a *tradition* of Irish music, like Celtic rock, Enya (no slam on Enya!), etc. Most people who actually *use* the term without their tongues in their cheeks do not consider Celtic rock and Enya traditional in any sense. Probably the most heated debates are among those who think that the tradition is defined by how people played 80 or 100 years ago, and those who think otherwise.
Those who think it is defined by how people played 80 or 100 years ago, "traditional" means music played solo, or maybe occasionally in duets, and in any case not accompanied. So, guitar and piano (and other accompanying instruments) are not traditional instruments on this (the most conservative) view.
There are others who are willing to include more varied configurations of musicians under the umbrella of "traditional"--ceili bands, other ensembles, etc.--as long as they play their individual instruments in a style consistent enough with the standard-bearers of the tradition of two or three generations ago. By this standard, Eileen Ivers and Sharon Shannon wouldn't be counted as traditional, because they use a lot of rock instrumentation and jazz styles.
And then there are more moderately inclusive sorts--maybe festival organizers--who will call "traditional" any act that performs traditional songs or tunes, regardless of instrumentation or style.
Here's my view, for what it's worth. (So: IMHO!) Personally, I like my terms to be *useful* if I'm going to use them at all. So, of what use or function is the concept of "traditional music"? First, it is useful for marking of music that is part of an aural, passed-down way of making music. So in order to define ITM, you've got to determine *what elements* of Irish music *have* been passed down from generation to generation, for a few generations at least. Well, there are certain styles, instruments, and ways of performing that are *definitely* traditional in this sense. Solo pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, and a few other instruments *definitely* are traditional in this sense. But playing in duos and even large groups is also traditional in this sense--think the Tulla Ceili Band, and other ceili bands.
There are aspects of *style* that are traditional and nontraditional, depending on the instrument.
But bands, like (I'll pick my favorite) Altan? The players' styles (I mean, the fiddlers and button accordion player) are reasonably similar to their influences--so, pretty traditional. But is there really a tradition of this sort of band-playing they do together? I'm not sure; I don't really think so, although I could be convinced otherwise.
Nevertheless, *some* such bands *are* traditional in the sense that they play traditional tunes in traditional settings and in traditional styles. If anything is non-traditional about the likes of Altan, Dervish, and Danu, it would be that the *kind* of arranged playing they do has not really been passed on for more than a generation. (They also use non-traditional instrumentation; there is no *tradition* of didgeridoo playing within the Irish tradition.)
"Traditional" music practically implies "folk" music--i.e., music that "the folk" play in their kitchens for their own enjoyment, by ear, passing it on to future generations. Clearly, a lot of what passes for Irish traditional music is not *folk* music in this original sense.
The problem of course is that the words "traditional" and "folk" have been appropriated by (1) companies that try to make money by using them as marketing terms, and (2) people who for whatever reason don't want to own up to the fact that the experimentation they do *with* traditional music is not, itself, part of any tradition or folk process. That brings me back to the issues mentioned in the beginning...
Hope this helps.
--Larry Sanger
# Posted on October 24th 2004 by lsanger
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
One of the complaints that I've heard about the label, "World Music" is that it puts the same background percussion in the fusion of all the genres of traditional music, thus creating a World Soup of traditional music rather than distinctive and unique styles and sounds. I tend to agree that great attention to detail is important to preserve each original genre in this day and age. "World Music" has its place, and has successfully drawn interest to particular genres of traditional music -- but it must stay in its place.
# Posted on October 24th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Hey Larry,
if you spent a fraction as much time in filling out your biog, as you do pontificating about definitions of what Irish music consists of, we'd have a much clearer target to aim at if we wanted to try to refute you
# Posted on October 25th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Well said, Larry.
# Posted on October 25th 2004 by Jode
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
I take it this is the same Larry Sanger of Wikipedia fame whose postings I have often read (with great interest) on the Irtrad list. If it is you Larry then adding a few words or links in your Bio would be a good idea -just stick in a link to your home page. It means that people have some idea who they are dealing with.
Cheers
Donough♪♫
# Posted on October 25th 2004 by Donough
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Thanks to Larry for reviving this discussion after the nearly fatal hijacking.
One point to add that muddies the water a bit, though:
I believe that when folklorists go out collecting tunes and songs from the ordinary folks who have had the music passed down to them over the generations, they find that many (most?) of these people don't view themselves as defending their tradition from outside influences. Often they have simply been isolated from outside influences by lack of communication. When they do discover new styles and material that they like, they willingly adopt it.
Aberdeenshire tinker Jane Turriff, who must be pushing 90 now, is regarded as a great source of old ballads, many learned from her mother. But when folklorists went to record her, she also sang them Jimmie Rodgers' songs, complete with yodelling.
According to the Wrigley sisters, the Orkney fiddling tradition very quickly incorporated elements of Django Reinhardt-style jazz when they got short-wave radio broadcasts in the mid-20th century.
I've read other stories like this and heard similar things from collectors, but it's time to get ready to leave for work.
The point is that tradition becomes exclusive when you try to define it from the outside. Within the tradition it's just people playing the music they know and like.
# Posted on October 25th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Larry's posting there was a tour-de-force of this semantic quagmire.
My initial reaction is , "Don't use the word 'traditional'" or "It doesn't matter whether something is traditional or not." This is why I prefer the term diddly. But on closer inspection of my feelings towards this music I find myself defending it's traditions. There's another topic above this one about bohem system flutes and while I have nothing against them, I defend the use of the simple system wooden flute, not because I just think it sounds better, but because all those years of tradition that went into flute music happened on it. The music was created on it, so it sounds beter on it. All that effort was not for nothing
# Posted on October 25th 2004 by ...
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Thanks for the welcomes, folks!
I put a little info about myself in my bio.
The fact that some or most standard-bearers of the tradition do not defend their traditions in the same way that revivalists (like some or most of us) do doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with revivalism, or with protecting traditions. We are reviving their music, not necessarily their attitudes. For instance, Francie Byrne played brass band marches and was reputed to be a little bigoted toward tinker musicians. I don't do either of these things, but I play many of Francie Byrne's tunes. (You might too..."Launching the Boat" is one of his.)
--Larry (yep, of Wikipedia fame, or infamy)
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by lsanger
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Hi Larry!
At least one standard bearer of the tradition has been defending it - probably too vociferously! (See the various threads discussing Mr. Tansey)
Mark
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Agreed, Larry. But defining what belongs to a tradition is mostly done by the revivalists and the academics, from the outside, not by the participants. It's an important thing to do, as is keeping a traditional style going, but it's also important to recognize that doing so isn't really part of the tradition. It's a fine line between helping to keep a tradition alive and being an antiquarian attempting to present a snapshot of the tradition in a time and place of the revivalist's choosing.
Wow. That took so long to compose that my internet connection timed out. I hope it made sense
Gary (Stardate 2067 EST)
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: Definitions of Trad playing?
Just because it is out-of-tune, it doesn't mean it isn't trad. Listen to some Coleman 78s - the fiddles are nearly as bad as the piano.
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by geoffwright