I've noticed many ITM CD's are highly priced, I have to admit most of my ITM collection is not store bought. The bulk of it is ripped CD's, Tape "Dubs" & recording of sessions - small concerts & the like. I know that I'm robbing the musicians which isn't cool, but I still like to have the music at as low of a price as possible. In this day & age of CD Burners, MP3's, etc. it is pretty easy to get what ever you want for free & It's a bit of a moral dilema for me. I was curious how others felt about this subject.
If we liked a tune we found on the internet (or where ever), consumers (according to some talking heads) often do buy the album, thereby increasing record sales! However, for our particular musical interest, I agree that record companies tend to charge a premium for their product. Has anyone here, after they download a tune they liked, went out and bought the album?
When it comes to all Trad music I always buy because most of the musicians (even quite famous players) don't make enough money and they need all they can get to keep their heads above water.I download tracks and also listen a great deal to trad music on the radio and if I like what I hear I'll go to great lengths to source them and also recommend them to my friends who have similair tastes -that way some cash goes to the musicians pockets.
I don't know of any rich ITM groups and that includes Lunasa and Altan (have you looked at their touring schedules?!!) and the hours they put in are amazing.They need and deserve all they can get.
Alan
It is no doubt that the internet will fundamentally change the music business at it has existed for the last 50 or so years. I'm afraid it will hurt the small companies even more than the biggies. If we want our favorite groups to keep making CDs instead of just posting MP3s, then we should do everything we can to support the labels and the artists. If you rip off Britanny Spears, she and her company will probably survive. Kevin Burke and his company may not.
I've made it a point not to rip entire albums. What I do is make sampler CD's for friends in the hope that they may like some of the cuts enough to want to go out and buy CD's of individual artists. I'm sure ASCAP et al don't approve of this, but ethically I find this approach suits me just fine. I want to see a bigger and bigger audience for alternative music and giving away teasers is my small way of helping out. At least that's my rationalization!
All CD's in Britain are much more expensive than in USA and at times I've found in cheaper to buy from Green Linnet for example, in USA than buy them in my local record shop. The best way to make sure the performer gets the most from your purchase is, I believe, to buy at a gig or direct from them in some way or from the specialist web-sites.
With regards to "burning" or whatever, I too find it a good way to get people into new stuff as some are very wary of trying anything new even in a genre of music they generally like. Hopefully then they do sometimes buy after having a taster. I've even bought CDs because I like the cover art when its in a genre I do know I like. The best example of this being Shooglenifty's "A Whiskey Kiss" which in no way is ITM or traditional but I'm glad I gave it a go. (There have also been major mistakes by trying this!!!). The big record companies are shooting themselves in the foot by ripping us off by the vast amounts they do sometimes charge.
Yes! In our session, we've implemented the notion of Wish Lists, ie mix CDs of songs or tunes one person would like the rest to learn. In doing this, we have several Wish List CDs circulating & the result is great exposure for a number of bands/groups, which often inspires the other members to purchase entire albums. I recently purchased an old Bothy Band CD & a new Nomos b/c of these "ripped" mixes.
I agree with all the posts here, I have gone out & bought albums due to downloading some killer cuts. One example is the "Paddy in the Smoke" album. I downloaded "The Tangled Hank of Yarn" from irishfiddle.com & went out & bought the album on the spot.
I guess if I bump into some of the folks who I've "stolen" music from I'll slip them $10.00 , which is probably much better than what they would get if I had bought the album.
I strongly believe that everyone should buy any CD they listen to often. If someone loans me a CD and I like it, I'll buy it instead of tape it. This is one small way to support ITM. I like to buy CDs at concerts and festivals because more goes to the musician. Green Linnet also runs specials every once in a while where you can get a lot of good CDs for $10 apiece. I have made tapes of my favorite tracks of various CDs to play in the car, but these are all CDs I own. The next time you consider copying a CD or track, consider this: How would you feel if your boss at work benefited from the fruits of your labor but didn't pay you for it?
I don't consider burning CD copies, taping sessions, or downloading mp3s "stealing". At the heart of it, I play music in order to share it, not to profit from it. The point is not that I get money out of everyone who hears my music, but that people hear it, like it, share it, and play it. I think of it as promotion - every time someone listens to it, whether they've paid for it or not, it's good for my career. It makes them (and their friends)that much more likely to buy my next CD or go to a concert.
If it's for the purpose of learning, personal enjoyment, or broadening the horizons of friends, I encourage it. If you are in some way making money off it though (ie, bootlegging copied or downloaded stuff), you are obviously crossing the line.
This from a person who has over 400 CDs and only 9 or 10 burned copies... I just can't believe people will ever stop buying discs. I don't feel threatened, but I understand why record companies do. They can spend millions on promotion and don't need the extra help of sharing within the listening community to advance their "product".
I guess at the end of the day, if you can easily afford to buy the stuff and feel bad not doing so, go for it, and thank you - you are helping someone survive on a musician's budget. If you can't afford it but want to listen to it it's OK to find another way to do so - you're still contributing to the survival of someone's career even if the benefits are not as clear. (Just make sure you play it loud enough for your rich neighbours to hear!)
To tape a favorite record for a friend have never been illegal (atl least not in Sweden). It's probably not illegal to burn one or two CD's to your friends as well. When your "friends" become totally unfamiliar people at Kazaa or some other P2P, then your in the "grey zone", but not necessarily illegal.
And on the other hand it depends on moral and not the laws. If it wasn't for the net I would never have had the chance to listen to most ITM music that you mention in the discussions here. Any idea of how hard it is to find ITM-records in Sweden if you want something else but the Dubliners, the Chieftains or Clannadh?!
But I wouldn't even concider to - for example - download Lunasas newest record via the net. As soon as I can afford it I'll buy it legally (via the net).
To be honest I don't think the P2P-technology is such a great threat for the musicians as it is for the big record companies.
I still buy as many - or few - records as before, but I can listen to a lot of music that was totally unreachable to me before. And when I like something for real, then of course I buy it.
BTW I agree with most of what fiddler on vermouth said
lars
I've copied tunes from records, but only if the artists are dead. If they're alive, they'll get the sale or I'll go without. For those of you who want to learn tunes, this rule of thumb should give you plenty to choose from, while avoiding any moral dilemmas you might have with stealing people's work and livelihood.
-jon kiparsky
Like many who subscribe to this site, the hours of enjoyment I have spent listening to ITM over the years numbers in the thousands. In fact, "enjoyment" is probably too confining a term to apply to our avocation. For many of us - amateurs we may be - it's become a way of life: we listen, we study, we absorb, we ponder phrases, we delight in the feelings of happiness, melancholy, wonder and beauty that the music inspires in us. I've often wondered what it would be like to make a living as an ITM musician. With only one notable exception (the Chieftans), it must be a life of comparative material privation, long periods away from home, and too many other personal sacrifices to count.
When I think of the men and women who have devoted their lives to keeping the tradition alive, who respond to some inner voice that enables them to endure the hardships of living the life of a folk artist, I feel a great sense of debt and appreciation. I am in debt because no matter how many CD's and concert tickets I buy, I have always come away with more than I paid for. Can the rush from any substance - licit or otherwise - match the unbridled exultation that comes from listening to the Bothy Band rip through Sailor's Bonnet? Can any bauble compare to the shine of Liz Carroll's Air Tune? Can any balm soothe the troubled soul more than Larry Nugent breathing life into The Banks of the Sur?
I am loathe to think of an existence without the music, the people, and the performances which have literally made such a dramatic difference in my life; and I am of the opinion that the real "crime" of copying music without payment is that it may make leading the life of the folk artist more difficult or altogether impossible. I would hate to think that Martin Hayes would no longer be able to devote his life to discovering and exploring in his solitary way the hidden surprises and latent secrets of the West Clare tradition and then interpreting and sharing them with us, because he must choose between his art and keeping a roof over his head. Just because the technology enables us to do it - and the ethic du jour absolves us from doing it - doesn't mean there's no consequence for the deed. Individually, we may save ourselves a few dollars; collectively, we may be robbing ourselves of something far more valuable.
With all due respect to those who weep for the poor souls who sacrifice the delights of a new SUV and a 9 to 5 dayjob to bring the glory of music to thieving, unappreciative tune downloaders... don't you think you might be exaggerating? Just a little? If it was such a burden, why do you think they would do it? Don't kid yourself into thinking any musician is really doing it for the benefit of the masses, to "keep the tradition alive"... Playing music exclusively for a living is the pinnacle of self-indulgence. The people I've met who do it are joyful and humble and full of enthusiasm. In short, the happiest, most interesting and fulfilled people I've ever met are full-time pros. I won't insult them with pity and charity.
Pity? Charity? No, you're right, Kerri, they don't deserve either. Paying them an honest fee for what they did for people to buy? Yup, certainly they should receive that. I can't think of any musician I've talked to or corresponded with who couldn't use some cash for basic living expenses, and that's exactly why they recorded in the first place -- so they could make some money. The fact that they're doing what they love is no excuse to deprive them of that. ("Well, he gets to do what he loves, so he shouldn't get money for it, too.") Let's not slam from one side to another -- no one likes centrists, but I'm afraid that's what I am.
Picking at random, I know of one ITM musician who is a fairly recent widower (at a youngish age) and who has to balance traveling all over the world trying to make some money to raise his kids on, and actually spending time in the same house with said kids. His entire life has been built around the music (his wife was also a musician). Should he then start over again in another profession in his adulthood? If he can sell four or five albums, he can buy a pair of jeans for one of the kids, or pay a credit card bill for the month. He doesn't want an SUV. He wants to have his own life yet raise his kids right as well -- one of the top parenting dilemmas of the modern age. I cannot encourage anyone not to purchase his albums but to rip them instead, knowing what I know about his life.
Sure, they're doing what they love, but that doesn't mean they should have to sacrifice making what they should receive because of it. People are going to rip music whether they like it or not, and they know it, but that doesn't make that act right. ("Right" and "wrong" are very dangerous words to use, by the way, and I know it. I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong by ripping, but that the act itself is wrong, which I think everyone knows and is aware of and has made that clear in their posts.)
You have to balance out your own poverty with how comfortable you are with doing something that's not kosher. You can't make a wrong action more right by saying that it's okay because you're poor or that you deserve to be able to do it because they're doing what they love to do, or whatever (as Brad makes clear he knows in the original post). You can only know that you might be able to make up for the wrongness by something else and being willing to take on the karma uncomplainingly for that wrongness, knowing that you deserve whatever it is that comes your way in its place. And everyone has to make that decision for themselves.
This is a sensitive topic for many people. I've heard so many
arguments between my computer literate friends on this very subject
that I have started to tune them all out (along with the ones on
whether emacs or vi is the better editor, silly, when we all know that
emacs leaves vi in the dust, ha,ha - just a little computer nerd
humor).
I would agree with everything you said, Zina, except that, for some
people, admittedly very few that I actually know, they don't consider
getting the music off the net for free to be wrong. For the few I
know, they are all a lot younger then I, so perhaps it is the culture
that they grew up in. As you said, Right and Wrong are dangerous
words. Some believe that there is no true right and wrong, just
perceptions of what is right and what is wrong. And perceptions change
from culture to culture and person to person. A difficult subject to
debate, because people tend to get emotional about it.
In any case, if I like the music from an mp3 off the net and/or I keep
the mp3 around, I always buy the CD. Whenever possible, I buy direct
from the musician, in hopes that they might get a bit more of the
money. It's true that my perception of not buying the cd is that it
is wrong. The main reason I buy it is because I am selfish, I want
the musicians I like to be able to devote as much of their time as
possible to making the music so that there is more great music for me
to listen to.
Let me make it clear that I'm as poor as the next musician, maybe even poorer. I made so little money last year that I actually got all of my taxes back. I own ripped CDs. And I expect to pay for that in one way or another (like by making so little money that I get all my taxes back -- heh).
And besides which, there is music out there available for free that the artist put out there for that purpose. So it's not all bad.
And, that's a great reminder, Glauber, thanks for that. Jeremy could probably use it for the expenses of this site, that's for sure!
I've re-read the comment I submitted above and tried to figure out where I might have indicated that full-time ITM musicians are owed pity and charity. I suppose it is a broad generalization to say - as I did - that ITM musicians lead lives of relative privation, but privation isn't confined to doing without an SUV. I cannot do a better job of illustrating that point than Zina did above. As a family man and a very infrequent business traveler, I can say with all authority that living a life out of suit case six or more months out of the year would be hell on earth - for me. The privation of being away from the comfort of home and family would far exceed any material privation I can think of. Perhaps I have erred in assuming that some ITM musicians feel the same way.
I am also searching the comment I made previously for any statement that says I suffer under the impression that ITM musicians are motivated by doing something for the "masses". I did say that some have devoted their lives to keeping the tradition alive but I did not ascribe any motivation as to why they do what they do. As with many artists, it may be that the existential urge for self-expression is dominant over all other urges, including social relationships and creature comforts. In fact, I'm inclined to agree with you that self-indulgence may be at the center of it all for many ITM musicians. (It would have to be for some - because there are certainly no "masses" to do it for.) And if that is the case I am all in favor of promoting and supporting more self-indulgence by paying for it.
And perhaps that point was lost in the way I personalized the issue. So let me be more blunt. If people copy/burn to the extent that some ITM musicians can no longer be full-time pros - or the handful of record labels who cater to this select taste can no longer operate - that would be bad for me. It would also be bad for other people. Bummer!
I have been persuaded by other comments in this thread that if the aim and result is to encourage CD and ticket sales copying/burning can be a valuable practice. If it is used to merely acquire music, however, it is stealing. I don't steal, and don't tell other people what to do. But I will warn others that there are consequence for their actions which affect everyone. Fortunately, the vast majority of ITM fans understand this dynamic and do their part to prevent it from happening.
I didn't intend to tick anyone off with my comments. I do tend to exaggerate, so (K) I'm sorry if you felt like I was picking on you, personally. There might be a tiny bit of devil's advocate in me... (but why stop now?)
Yes Zina, I agree with you that "right" and "wrong" are pretty vague words. I don't agree that there is a common acceptance that copying CDs for your personal use is "wrong", or "stealing". II think it's an important distinction to make. Walking into a CD store, grabbing an album, and walking out again without paying is stealing. Sneaking in through the window at a concert without buying a ticket is stealing. Making a tape of good music for a friend is NOT stealing. Downloading a song is not stealing.
As I mentioned, I do own about 400 CDs, all paid for. I'm not speaking from the perspective of a compulsive ripper. I look at this issue from a musician's perspective. I am happy when people enjoy my stuff enough to want a copy of my CD. Most people do attempt to pay me for my labor, so I'm just not worried about being toasted out of business.
I just can't be convinced that the five or six ripped CDs I have give me some kind of ethical stain when I am a lifelong devotee of music. I go to concerts, I buy CDs, I bail my musician friends out of severe financial difficulty with uncomfortably large donations. I also devote a huge part of my time to learning tunes and playing them ("keeping the tradition alive"). Copying CDs for me is just one thread in a tapestry of appreciative behavior.
Also, what's wrong with working? Really? Don't we all work? (I bet the sparks will fly now!) To qualify, I'm not saying Madonna should apply for a job flipping burgers at your local diner. I'm just saying if a musician can't make a living playing music, that musician will get a job. Doesn't mean they'll stop playing music. I don't see the pathos. Work is a fact of life. Kudos to those who escape the cruel fate of employment in the fast car of music. I admire them, but I don't owe them anything.
Few musicians (or other artists) get to make their entire living from their art in this country. In fact, my guess is that few people in general get to make their whole living doing something they love. I consider this to be a fundamental flaw in Western "civilization" (if there is such a thing).
When it comes to music, I generally buy any CD I really want the music from. If it's a major artist (although I fell moved to listen to fewer and fewer "major artists" these days), I might consider ripping the tracks from a friend's CD or searching for a free download. If it's an indie trying to get their stuff out who has probably paid for it out of their own nearly empty pockets, you'd best believe I pay for it. Not only is it supporting the artist, it's also a blow - albeit a tiny one - against the huge industrial machine that is robbing popular music of any trace of individual artstic identity.
That said, I also rip all my CDs that I have purchased so I can have the music on my various computers at work, home, laptop, etc., and also to share with my bandmates when we're learning a tune. There's nothing like being able to e-mail a tune to my harpist so that she'll have it up for next Wednesday's rehearsal. And you can use some of that nifty software that lets you slow the tune down while learning it!
Ultimately, I see nothing wrong with taping/ripping a CD you've bought at the level of one or two copies for backup, convenience, or low-level sharing among friends and bandmates. But if you meet some really great but financially challenged musician selling his/her* CDs at a festival, my feeling is buy the bloody CD, don't wait for a friend to get it and then rip it. If there are four of you there, buy four CDs. If you honestly can only afford one among the four of you, at least you've paid for one! (Or you can trade one of your own if you have them)
Well, then, that was a long and rambling rant (hmm, another great tune title!). I'll desist now in the name of mercy.
Price of ITM CD's & "Dubbing" - How do you feel?
Price of ITM CD's & "Dubbing" - How do you feel?
I've noticed many ITM CD's are highly priced, I have to admit most of my ITM collection is not store bought. The bulk of it is ripped CD's, Tape "Dubs" & recording of sessions - small concerts & the like. I know that I'm robbing the musicians which isn't cool, but I still like to have the music at as low of a price as possible. In this day & age of CD Burners, MP3's, etc. it is pretty easy to get what ever you want for free & It's a bit of a moral dilema for me. I was curious how others felt about this subject.
Brad
# Posted on April 12th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
If we liked a tune we found on the internet (or where ever), consumers (according to some talking heads) often do buy the album, thereby increasing record sales! However, for our particular musical interest, I agree that record companies tend to charge a premium for their product. Has anyone here, after they download a tune they liked, went out and bought the album?
# Posted on April 12th 2002 by Caoimghgin
PS - Does this justify downloading the tune?
# Posted on April 12th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
When it comes to all Trad music I always buy because most of the musicians (even quite famous players) don't make enough money and they need all they can get to keep their heads above water.I download tracks and also listen a great deal to trad music on the radio and if I like what I hear I'll go to great lengths to source them and also recommend them to my friends who have similair tastes -that way some cash goes to the musicians pockets.
I don't know of any rich ITM groups and that includes Lunasa and Altan (have you looked at their touring schedules?!!) and the hours they put in are amazing.They need and deserve all they can get.
Alan
# Posted on April 13th 2002 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
It is no doubt that the internet will fundamentally change the music business at it has existed for the last 50 or so years. I'm afraid it will hurt the small companies even more than the biggies. If we want our favorite groups to keep making CDs instead of just posting MP3s, then we should do everything we can to support the labels and the artists. If you rip off Britanny Spears, she and her company will probably survive. Kevin Burke and his company may not.
Joe
# Posted on April 13th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I've made it a point not to rip entire albums. What I do is make sampler CD's for friends in the hope that they may like some of the cuts enough to want to go out and buy CD's of individual artists. I'm sure ASCAP et al don't approve of this, but ethically I find this approach suits me just fine. I want to see a bigger and bigger audience for alternative music and giving away teasers is my small way of helping out. At least that's my rationalization!
# Posted on April 14th 2002 by gfox1606
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
All CD's in Britain are much more expensive than in USA and at times I've found in cheaper to buy from Green Linnet for example, in USA than buy them in my local record shop. The best way to make sure the performer gets the most from your purchase is, I believe, to buy at a gig or direct from them in some way or from the specialist web-sites.
With regards to "burning" or whatever, I too find it a good way to get people into new stuff as some are very wary of trying anything new even in a genre of music they generally like. Hopefully then they do sometimes buy after having a taster. I've even bought CDs because I like the cover art when its in a genre I do know I like. The best example of this being Shooglenifty's "A Whiskey Kiss" which in no way is ITM or traditional but I'm glad I gave it a go. (There have also been major mistakes by trying this!!!). The big record companies are shooting themselves in the foot by ripping us off by the vast amounts they do sometimes charge.
# Posted on April 14th 2002 by Caraaz
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
Yes! In our session, we've implemented the notion of Wish Lists, ie mix CDs of songs or tunes one person would like the rest to learn. In doing this, we have several Wish List CDs circulating & the result is great exposure for a number of bands/groups, which often inspires the other members to purchase entire albums. I recently purchased an old Bothy Band CD & a new Nomos b/c of these "ripped" mixes.
# Posted on April 14th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I agree with all the posts here, I have gone out & bought albums due to downloading some killer cuts. One example is the "Paddy in the Smoke" album. I downloaded "The Tangled Hank of Yarn" from irishfiddle.com & went out & bought the album on the spot.
I guess if I bump into some of the folks who I've "stolen" music from I'll slip them $10.00 , which is probably much better than what they would get if I had bought the album.
~Brad
# Posted on April 14th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I strongly believe that everyone should buy any CD they listen to often. If someone loans me a CD and I like it, I'll buy it instead of tape it. This is one small way to support ITM. I like to buy CDs at concerts and festivals because more goes to the musician. Green Linnet also runs specials every once in a while where you can get a lot of good CDs for $10 apiece. I have made tapes of my favorite tracks of various CDs to play in the car, but these are all CDs I own. The next time you consider copying a CD or track, consider this: How would you feel if your boss at work benefited from the fruits of your labor but didn't pay you for it?
Thanks,
Jim
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Jiml
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I don't consider burning CD copies, taping sessions, or downloading mp3s "stealing". At the heart of it, I play music in order to share it, not to profit from it. The point is not that I get money out of everyone who hears my music, but that people hear it, like it, share it, and play it. I think of it as promotion - every time someone listens to it, whether they've paid for it or not, it's good for my career. It makes them (and their friends)that much more likely to buy my next CD or go to a concert.
If it's for the purpose of learning, personal enjoyment, or broadening the horizons of friends, I encourage it. If you are in some way making money off it though (ie, bootlegging copied or downloaded stuff), you are obviously crossing the line.
This from a person who has over 400 CDs and only 9 or 10 burned copies... I just can't believe people will ever stop buying discs. I don't feel threatened, but I understand why record companies do. They can spend millions on promotion and don't need the extra help of sharing within the listening community to advance their "product".
I guess at the end of the day, if you can easily afford to buy the stuff and feel bad not doing so, go for it, and thank you - you are helping someone survive on a musician's budget. If you can't afford it but want to listen to it it's OK to find another way to do so - you're still contributing to the survival of someone's career even if the benefits are not as clear. (Just make sure you play it loud enough for your rich neighbours to hear!)
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Das Kapital
"How would you feel if your boss at work benefited from the fruits of your labor but didn't pay you for it?"
If? What you mean if?
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by glauber
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
chuckle chuckle, glauber.
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
To tape a favorite record for a friend have never been illegal (atl least not in Sweden). It's probably not illegal to burn one or two CD's to your friends as well. When your "friends" become totally unfamiliar people at Kazaa or some other P2P, then your in the "grey zone", but not necessarily illegal.
And on the other hand it depends on moral and not the laws. If it wasn't for the net I would never have had the chance to listen to most ITM music that you mention in the discussions here. Any idea of how hard it is to find ITM-records in Sweden if you want something else but the Dubliners, the Chieftains or Clannadh?!
But I wouldn't even concider to - for example - download Lunasas newest record via the net. As soon as I can afford it I'll buy it legally (via the net).
To be honest I don't think the P2P-technology is such a great threat for the musicians as it is for the big record companies.
I still buy as many - or few - records as before, but I can listen to a lot of music that was totally unreachable to me before. And when I like something for real, then of course I buy it.
BTW I agree with most of what fiddler on vermouth said
lars
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by lars
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I've copied tunes from records, but only if the artists are dead. If they're alive, they'll get the sale or I'll go without. For those of you who want to learn tunes, this rule of thumb should give you plenty to choose from, while avoiding any moral dilemmas you might have with stealing people's work and livelihood.
-jon kiparsky
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
Like many who subscribe to this site, the hours of enjoyment I have spent listening to ITM over the years numbers in the thousands. In fact, "enjoyment" is probably too confining a term to apply to our avocation. For many of us - amateurs we may be - it's become a way of life: we listen, we study, we absorb, we ponder phrases, we delight in the feelings of happiness, melancholy, wonder and beauty that the music inspires in us. I've often wondered what it would be like to make a living as an ITM musician. With only one notable exception (the Chieftans), it must be a life of comparative material privation, long periods away from home, and too many other personal sacrifices to count.
When I think of the men and women who have devoted their lives to keeping the tradition alive, who respond to some inner voice that enables them to endure the hardships of living the life of a folk artist, I feel a great sense of debt and appreciation. I am in debt because no matter how many CD's and concert tickets I buy, I have always come away with more than I paid for. Can the rush from any substance - licit or otherwise - match the unbridled exultation that comes from listening to the Bothy Band rip through Sailor's Bonnet? Can any bauble compare to the shine of Liz Carroll's Air Tune? Can any balm soothe the troubled soul more than Larry Nugent breathing life into The Banks of the Sur?
I am loathe to think of an existence without the music, the people, and the performances which have literally made such a dramatic difference in my life; and I am of the opinion that the real "crime" of copying music without payment is that it may make leading the life of the folk artist more difficult or altogether impossible. I would hate to think that Martin Hayes would no longer be able to devote his life to discovering and exploring in his solitary way the hidden surprises and latent secrets of the West Clare tradition and then interpreting and sharing them with us, because he must choose between his art and keeping a roof over his head. Just because the technology enables us to do it - and the ethic du jour absolves us from doing it - doesn't mean there's no consequence for the deed. Individually, we may save ourselves a few dollars; collectively, we may be robbing ourselves of something far more valuable.
# Posted on April 16th 2002 by K. Leahy
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
With all due respect to those who weep for the poor souls who sacrifice the delights of a new SUV and a 9 to 5 dayjob to bring the glory of music to thieving, unappreciative tune downloaders... don't you think you might be exaggerating? Just a little? If it was such a burden, why do you think they would do it? Don't kid yourself into thinking any musician is really doing it for the benefit of the masses, to "keep the tradition alive"... Playing music exclusively for a living is the pinnacle of self-indulgence. The people I've met who do it are joyful and humble and full of enthusiasm. In short, the happiest, most interesting and fulfilled people I've ever met are full-time pros. I won't insult them with pity and charity.
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
Pity? Charity? No, you're right, Kerri, they don't deserve either. Paying them an honest fee for what they did for people to buy? Yup, certainly they should receive that. I can't think of any musician I've talked to or corresponded with who couldn't use some cash for basic living expenses, and that's exactly why they recorded in the first place -- so they could make some money. The fact that they're doing what they love is no excuse to deprive them of that. ("Well, he gets to do what he loves, so he shouldn't get money for it, too.") Let's not slam from one side to another -- no one likes centrists, but I'm afraid that's what I am.
Picking at random, I know of one ITM musician who is a fairly recent widower (at a youngish age) and who has to balance traveling all over the world trying to make some money to raise his kids on, and actually spending time in the same house with said kids. His entire life has been built around the music (his wife was also a musician). Should he then start over again in another profession in his adulthood? If he can sell four or five albums, he can buy a pair of jeans for one of the kids, or pay a credit card bill for the month. He doesn't want an SUV. He wants to have his own life yet raise his kids right as well -- one of the top parenting dilemmas of the modern age. I cannot encourage anyone not to purchase his albums but to rip them instead, knowing what I know about his life.
Sure, they're doing what they love, but that doesn't mean they should have to sacrifice making what they should receive because of it. People are going to rip music whether they like it or not, and they know it, but that doesn't make that act right. ("Right" and "wrong" are very dangerous words to use, by the way, and I know it. I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong by ripping, but that the act itself is wrong, which I think everyone knows and is aware of and has made that clear in their posts.)
You have to balance out your own poverty with how comfortable you are with doing something that's not kosher. You can't make a wrong action more right by saying that it's okay because you're poor or that you deserve to be able to do it because they're doing what they love to do, or whatever (as Brad makes clear he knows in the original post). You can only know that you might be able to make up for the wrongness by something else and being willing to take on the karma uncomplainingly for that wrongness, knowing that you deserve whatever it is that comes your way in its place. And everyone has to make that decision for themselves.
Zina
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
This is a sensitive topic for many people. I've heard so many
arguments between my computer literate friends on this very subject
that I have started to tune them all out (along with the ones on
whether emacs or vi is the better editor, silly, when we all know that
emacs leaves vi in the dust, ha,ha - just a little computer nerd
humor).
I would agree with everything you said, Zina, except that, for some
people, admittedly very few that I actually know, they don't consider
getting the music off the net for free to be wrong. For the few I
know, they are all a lot younger then I, so perhaps it is the culture
that they grew up in. As you said, Right and Wrong are dangerous
words. Some believe that there is no true right and wrong, just
perceptions of what is right and what is wrong. And perceptions change
from culture to culture and person to person. A difficult subject to
debate, because people tend to get emotional about it.
In any case, if I like the music from an mp3 off the net and/or I keep
the mp3 around, I always buy the CD. Whenever possible, I buy direct
from the musician, in hopes that they might get a bit more of the
money. It's true that my perception of not buying the cd is that it
is wrong. The main reason I buy it is because I am selfish, I want
the musicians I like to be able to devote as much of their time as
possible to making the music so that there is more great music for me
to listen to.
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Buying CDs
You can also buy them through the Amazon.com link in the recordings section, so Jeremy gets the kickback.
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by glauber
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
Let me make it clear that I'm as poor as the next musician, maybe even poorer. I made so little money last year that I actually got all of my taxes back. I own ripped CDs. And I expect to pay for that in one way or another (like by making so little money that I get all my taxes back -- heh).
And besides which, there is music out there available for free that the artist put out there for that purpose. So it's not all bad.
And, that's a great reminder, Glauber, thanks for that. Jeremy could probably use it for the expenses of this site, that's for sure!
Zina
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
In reply to fiddler on vermouth:
I've re-read the comment I submitted above and tried to figure out where I might have indicated that full-time ITM musicians are owed pity and charity. I suppose it is a broad generalization to say - as I did - that ITM musicians lead lives of relative privation, but privation isn't confined to doing without an SUV. I cannot do a better job of illustrating that point than Zina did above. As a family man and a very infrequent business traveler, I can say with all authority that living a life out of suit case six or more months out of the year would be hell on earth - for me. The privation of being away from the comfort of home and family would far exceed any material privation I can think of. Perhaps I have erred in assuming that some ITM musicians feel the same way.
I am also searching the comment I made previously for any statement that says I suffer under the impression that ITM musicians are motivated by doing something for the "masses". I did say that some have devoted their lives to keeping the tradition alive but I did not ascribe any motivation as to why they do what they do. As with many artists, it may be that the existential urge for self-expression is dominant over all other urges, including social relationships and creature comforts. In fact, I'm inclined to agree with you that self-indulgence may be at the center of it all for many ITM musicians. (It would have to be for some - because there are certainly no "masses" to do it for.) And if that is the case I am all in favor of promoting and supporting more self-indulgence by paying for it.
And perhaps that point was lost in the way I personalized the issue. So let me be more blunt. If people copy/burn to the extent that some ITM musicians can no longer be full-time pros - or the handful of record labels who cater to this select taste can no longer operate - that would be bad for me. It would also be bad for other people. Bummer!
I have been persuaded by other comments in this thread that if the aim and result is to encourage CD and ticket sales copying/burning can be a valuable practice. If it is used to merely acquire music, however, it is stealing. I don't steal, and don't tell other people what to do. But I will warn others that there are consequence for their actions which affect everyone. Fortunately, the vast majority of ITM fans understand this dynamic and do their part to prevent it from happening.
# Posted on April 18th 2002 by K. Leahy
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
I didn't intend to tick anyone off with my comments. I do tend to exaggerate, so (K) I'm sorry if you felt like I was picking on you, personally. There might be a tiny bit of devil's advocate in me... (but why stop now?)
Yes Zina, I agree with you that "right" and "wrong" are pretty vague words. I don't agree that there is a common acceptance that copying CDs for your personal use is "wrong", or "stealing". II think it's an important distinction to make. Walking into a CD store, grabbing an album, and walking out again without paying is stealing. Sneaking in through the window at a concert without buying a ticket is stealing. Making a tape of good music for a friend is NOT stealing. Downloading a song is not stealing.
As I mentioned, I do own about 400 CDs, all paid for. I'm not speaking from the perspective of a compulsive ripper. I look at this issue from a musician's perspective. I am happy when people enjoy my stuff enough to want a copy of my CD. Most people do attempt to pay me for my labor, so I'm just not worried about being toasted out of business.
I just can't be convinced that the five or six ripped CDs I have give me some kind of ethical stain when I am a lifelong devotee of music. I go to concerts, I buy CDs, I bail my musician friends out of severe financial difficulty with uncomfortably large donations. I also devote a huge part of my time to learning tunes and playing them ("keeping the tradition alive"). Copying CDs for me is just one thread in a tapestry of appreciative behavior.
Also, what's wrong with working? Really? Don't we all work? (I bet the sparks will fly now!) To qualify, I'm not saying Madonna should apply for a job flipping burgers at your local diner. I'm just saying if a musician can't make a living playing music, that musician will get a job. Doesn't mean they'll stop playing music. I don't see the pathos. Work is a fact of life. Kudos to those who escape the cruel fate of employment in the fast car of music. I admire them, but I don't owe them anything.
# Posted on April 19th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Price of ITM CD's &
Few musicians (or other artists) get to make their entire living from their art in this country. In fact, my guess is that few people in general get to make their whole living doing something they love. I consider this to be a fundamental flaw in Western "civilization" (if there is such a thing).
When it comes to music, I generally buy any CD I really want the music from. If it's a major artist (although I fell moved to listen to fewer and fewer "major artists" these days), I might consider ripping the tracks from a friend's CD or searching for a free download. If it's an indie trying to get their stuff out who has probably paid for it out of their own nearly empty pockets, you'd best believe I pay for it. Not only is it supporting the artist, it's also a blow - albeit a tiny one - against the huge industrial machine that is robbing popular music of any trace of individual artstic identity.
That said, I also rip all my CDs that I have purchased so I can have the music on my various computers at work, home, laptop, etc., and also to share with my bandmates when we're learning a tune. There's nothing like being able to e-mail a tune to my harpist so that she'll have it up for next Wednesday's rehearsal. And you can use some of that nifty software that lets you slow the tune down while learning it!
Ultimately, I see nothing wrong with taping/ripping a CD you've bought at the level of one or two copies for backup, convenience, or low-level sharing among friends and bandmates. But if you meet some really great but financially challenged musician selling his/her* CDs at a festival, my feeling is buy the bloody CD, don't wait for a friend to get it and then rip it. If there are four of you there, buy four CDs. If you honestly can only afford one among the four of you, at least you've paid for one! (Or you can trade one of your own if you have them)
Well, then, that was a long and rambling rant (hmm, another great tune title!). I'll desist now in the name of mercy.
JeffK
# Posted on April 19th 2002 by JeffK627