So I'm a paper-trained classical flutist who snuck by for a year in a family Irish band playing tunes & drinking songs in pubs & Christmas parties on the East Coast (US). During this time, I purchased a Ralph Sweet transverse wooden flute in D, keyless, & boy I never play it b/c my right hand just is so uncomfortable. My cousin Eliot who plays Uillean pipes helped me pick it out, advising to cover the holes with the flat of the bone, but I just feel my hands are too small or something, & now I"ve learned that forcing the fingers can lead to carpal tunnel?! Anyway, now that I've moved to rural Arizona, I've (amazingly) found a regular session group locally & I'm playing contra dances in Flagstaff each month, but I'm sick of the Boehm, darnit. Yeah I'm trying the whistle with some luck, but I've got my sights set possibly on a 4key flute, so I can get out those G#s, etc.
Q. Will all keyed flutes have similar spacing on the right hand? Is it actually worth a trip to San Francisco's Lark in the Morning to test drive all these flutes? Is there a better store closer by? (read: Four Corners) And is it really worth it? I'm a little nervous about weaning myself off those little black dots & unlearning various fingerings ie C-natural, but I think I'm ready for the commitment, musically, financially, practice-wise
Any suggestions welcome, you guys seems super-friendly & informative, I've enjoyed the site thoroughly so far, & look forward to coming back!
Not sure, Emily, what you mean by "flat of the bone", but if you're playing a wooden flute like uilleann pipes, you'll get carpal tunnel syndrome fairly quickly! The pads of your fingers should be covering the holes, as they would the middle of the keys on a Boehm system. If you do that, I'm sure you won't have any problems with stiffness Afraid I cant' help you with where to shop in the US (I'm from Ireland, but now living in New Zealand), but I'm sure there'll be plenty of advice forthcoming from the regulars on this site - there seem to be a few flute players.
As regards keys, you can get a fully keyed wooden flute with the C natural key as on the Boehm, but I suppose most folk musicians wouldn't use it a lot, especially with reels. If you play a lot of contra-dances in A, the G sharp is handy. I like to have it even though I don't play too many tunes in A. Good luck with your flute playing.
unfortunately, the "simple system" flute used in Irish music (keyed or keyless) imposes more strain on the hands, especially the right hand, because of the finger stretches. Some flutes are worse than others, but they all have the problem. So, go carefully. Especially when making the switch from modern to traditional flute, don't practice for too long stretches and stop when it starts hurting. Hopefully, with time your hands will adapt.
There are 2 ways out of the problem:
(1) use a smaller flute (maybe a piccolo)
(2) "Siccama" keys, but i think only Terry McGee offers them
And as for trying the flutes before buying, i think it's very important. I hate buying instruments before trying them out. Make sure that the seller has a return policy that would allow you to send the flute back within, say, 10 days, because it may take a few days for you to adapt to a new flute.
I'm not an experienced flute player, but I recently went through the hoops in looking for a decent flute. For wooden models available with and without keys, one maker comes to mind for providing flutes with hole (key) patterns to match your hands.
Skip Healy (www.skiphealy.com) is a highly regarded maker here in the States (Rhode Island). Check out the testimonials on his site. He mailed an adjustable flute to a player so she could decide how she wanted the holes before ordering her custom made one. Some makers do this by building a joint into the flute body between the right and left hands (allowing you to rotate the holes for a more comfortable finger posture), but Healy will make a single piece with the holes offset after you've tried his adjustable flute to get the position just the way you want it. And his prices--even with this kind of service--are in that $1,000 US range, with short waiting periods.
I ended up buying a Desi Seery keyless polymer flute for my first attempt at this and I'm very happy with it. It sounds 99 percent as good as a wooden flute at one-third the cost, and it won't dry out and crack in Montana's drought-stricken summers. Available with and without keys, but it's sized for larger hands. You can check them out at www.csagraphics.com/seery. Another good polymer (and wooden) flute maker is Michael Cronolly at M&E Flutes. Go to http://homepage.eircom.net/~mandeflutes
Word has it that M&E's now come in a modified Rudall pattern for smaller hands.
Finally, talk to David Migoya at Fyfer Restorations (see the links section on this site). He's in Colorado and deals in better wooden flutes (and lots of whistles), vintage to contemporary. He's also a fine trad Irish flute player.
I understand what you mean about the hole spacing. I've purchased a flute from a fella in Derry and am waiting for it to be made so in the meantime I thought I'd buy a cheap bamboo flute just to sort of practice on. Not a bad tone but as far as covering the holes it's a bit of a nightmare. Hope the real thing is better!!
The bamboo flute will be worse than the real thing. That's because bamboo is cylindrical, and there are fewer tricks you can play to make the holes more usable. The real thing will have a conical body (i hope! ), and will be better than the bamboo for sure, but still not as comfortable as a modern flute.
I can vouch for Skip, I know him fairly well as well as most of the people who work in his shop. He's extremely willing to make a flute to suit the player. I know he makes "Small Hand Models" but he might be willing to make a flute with extra small right hand spacing - but I can't promise. Desi Seery, Ralph Sweet & most other makers make a "Small Hands" spacing flute.
On a side note, piping grip is probably what your refering to with the on the "flat of the bone" grip. The other way of holding the flute is using the fingertips to plug the holes. I'm no expert at all but I use my finger tips on the right hand (my knuckles come out at 45 degree angle from the body of the flute) & I use a piping grip on the left hand & I feel very comfortable with that grip. I've seen folks use a straight pipering grip who were excellent players & I don't see it causing carpel-tunnel. These folks are the exception as most fluters I've met use the fingertip method. It all boils down to your comfort, it doesn't effect your overall sound a bit. I would suggest one of Skip's flutes, I've also played some Sweets which are good cheap flutes - but they are cheap flutes & can limit you in the long run. I played a seery & liked it alot, same goes for M&E flutes. I played an old Ruddle & Rose Perfected & had a hard time, lots of wind - a great flute but not for a beginer to wooden flutes. I've never tried one of Terry McGee's but I've heard he has a whole other approach to flute making than most flute makers.
But all of this doesn't amount to a hill of beans, because these are my opinions & yours could be different. Instead of going to SF to visit "Lark's" most makers have a thirty day return policy & a thirty day "test drive" only costs shipping if you decide the flute isn't your cup of tea. That way you can sample all the great makers & shop around without traveling. Another thing Lark's doesn't carry alot of the big makers of our time.
Wow these are all very helpful responses, thank you! My only concern with the 'small hands' models would be intonation, but apparently these makers have factored that into the equation. I will certainly contact Skip Healy, among others, & keep you posted on the endeavor.
(how embarrassing to learn after all these years I have 'small hands!')
btw unless I completely misheard them on the telephone, Lark's return policy is a mere 3 days. In the middle of nowhere, I'm lucky to get the post office once a week. They did, however, offer to order any or all flutes from the warehouse in advance to have them in-shop should I plan a visit. *shrug*
I have small hands too. It doesn't need to stop you. It's all a question of practice, like everything. But a nicely contoured Rudall model feels wonderfull under the fingers, makes my M&E feel like a heavy stick. Oh well...
3 days is way too little of a return policy. Maybe you can go there, try all the flutes, then buy the one you like directly from the maker.
You may want to listen in and ask the same questions in the "woodenflute" email list before you make your purchase. Subscribe through www.woodenflute.com. Great people there, and many makers.
Hi Emily_Az,
I'm brand new to the Session and this is my first submission (and there was much rejoicing), but I had to at least add a few cents to the previous great advice. I went through the same thing, since I too am a "small hands" fluter (must we start a support group?) and was on the flute search a few years back. I was really hoping to buy used. Just as I was about to give up, someone on the woodenflute.com list advertised one, a five key, for sale. As I inquired I learned that the seller (in Scotland, selling a George Ormiston blackwood w/ silver) also was smallhanded and said the flute had been great for her. So after some communication, we even worked up a "friendly contract" that we both signed agreeing to a 30-day trial period. It was a great experience! I think I must play the piper way: flatfingered, using the second pad of my fingers to cover the holes on the right hand, and never notice problems, though it may look funny. Left hand gets sore if I haven't played for a while, since it's a heavier flute than silver boehm. So. . . what am I saying?
1. You could try used,
2. Try George O.
Hope you're search goes well!
God bless ya,
Colleen
update: So I emailed a bunch of makers, including Hammy Hamilton, Skip Healy, Desi Seery, & Michael Cronnolly. M&E in fact has a modified Rudall & Rose in polymer which he has been making for a few months, apparently with great success & praise. Without asking for a deposit or anything, he has sent me a keyless model in the mail to determine if it's a good fit for my hands, with keys to be added later.
Here are a few links he included in his lovely email.
I should also mention that all the makers have responded with timely, affable, informative emails, but M&E beat everyone to the punch by actually sending me a flute without my even asking!
I love my M&E flute too. I have the old model, but i think the new "Rudall" model may be a better fit for small hands. As you try it, remember to give it time. This is a different kind of flute for you, and even if you have many years of playing classical flute, this will be different (it was for me), so it won't sound real good at first. It may take you a week or two to get it to sound right. Michael would be glad to give you some playing advice if you ask him.
For me, the greatest differences were:
(1) "cover the hole": allow your lower lip to cover about half of the embochure hole.
(2) blow more "downwards" than you would with a modern flute.
(3) don't be afraid to use a LOT of air. The trad flute has more resistance and can take whatever you give it. The more air you blow in, the more "Irish" you will sound. I'm convinced that some Irish players were born with 3 lungs.
The low E is the hardest note for me (E is a weak note in the trad flute, due to limitations of the human hand). I know i'm blowing it right when the low E sounds ok.
woo hoo i"m all over that contest! I thought it would be obscure Irish flute questions, but hey that's just about as easy as "what have I got in my pocket?"
side note on wood vs polymer: the fiddle player in my session, her husband made her this great wooden music stand which in less that six months of high desert dwelling has developed 2 prominent cracks. Not sure I want my first Irish flute venture to end as such, even with extensive maintenance, etc. I can barely walk my dogs every day, poor kids.
it's said that pouring half a pint of Guiness down the embochure hole at the end of the session prevents cracks.
Seriously, African blackwood is very tough, it won't crack easily. But i think you're doing the right thing, start with the polymer, see if you want to go to a wooden flute later, and even if you do, you might want to keep the M&E as something you can schlep around without much thought.
LOL since I"m living on the Navajo Indian reservation (which is "dry," ie no alcohol allowed), I'm probably the only member of thesession without instant access to alcohol of any type, much less Guinness on tap :(
*sob*
However, the situation does lend itself to great band names, ie the Apache County Ceili Band (see the Sawdoctors ref) or simply, the Best Irish Band in the Navajo Nation. Catchy, huh? We were even thinking of competing in the Prairie Home Companion Towns Under 2,000 Contest, but I have learned our town actually has almost 3,500 residents, although mostly Navajo.
Can't wait for my flute! Thought I'd come out here to learn Native American flute & my ITM is blossoming instead.
flute shopping....
flute shopping....
So I'm a paper-trained classical flutist who snuck by for a year in a family Irish band playing tunes & drinking songs in pubs & Christmas parties on the East Coast (US). During this time, I purchased a Ralph Sweet transverse wooden flute in D, keyless, & boy I never play it b/c my right hand just is so uncomfortable. My cousin Eliot who plays Uillean pipes helped me pick it out, advising to cover the holes with the flat of the bone, but I just feel my hands are too small or something, & now I"ve learned that forcing the fingers can lead to carpal tunnel?! Anyway, now that I've moved to rural Arizona, I've (amazingly) found a regular session group locally & I'm playing contra dances in Flagstaff each month, but I'm sick of the Boehm, darnit. Yeah I'm trying the whistle with some luck, but I've got my sights set possibly on a 4key flute, so I can get out those G#s, etc.
Q. Will all keyed flutes have similar spacing on the right hand? Is it actually worth a trip to San Francisco's Lark in the Morning to test drive all these flutes? Is there a better store closer by? (read: Four Corners) And is it really worth it? I'm a little nervous about weaning myself off those little black dots & unlearning various fingerings ie C-natural, but I think I'm ready for the commitment, musically, financially, practice-wise
Any suggestions welcome, you guys seems super-friendly & informative, I've enjoyed the site thoroughly so far, & look forward to coming back!
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: flute shopping....
Not sure, Emily, what you mean by "flat of the bone", but if you're playing a wooden flute like uilleann pipes, you'll get carpal tunnel syndrome fairly quickly! The pads of your fingers should be covering the holes, as they would the middle of the keys on a Boehm system. If you do that, I'm sure you won't have any problems with stiffness Afraid I cant' help you with where to shop in the US (I'm from Ireland, but now living in New Zealand), but I'm sure there'll be plenty of advice forthcoming from the regulars on this site - there seem to be a few flute players.
As regards keys, you can get a fully keyed wooden flute with the C natural key as on the Boehm, but I suppose most folk musicians wouldn't use it a lot, especially with reels. If you play a lot of contra-dances in A, the G sharp is handy. I like to have it even though I don't play too many tunes in A. Good luck with your flute playing.
S
# Posted on April 10th 2002 by SeamusNZ
Re: flute shopping....
Emily,
unfortunately, the "simple system" flute used in Irish music (keyed or keyless) imposes more strain on the hands, especially the right hand, because of the finger stretches. Some flutes are worse than others, but they all have the problem. So, go carefully. Especially when making the switch from modern to traditional flute, don't practice for too long stretches and stop when it starts hurting. Hopefully, with time your hands will adapt.
There are 2 ways out of the problem:
(1) use a smaller flute (maybe a piccolo)
(2) "Siccama" keys, but i think only Terry McGee offers them
And as for trying the flutes before buying, i think it's very important. I hate buying instruments before trying them out. Make sure that the seller has a return policy that would allow you to send the flute back within, say, 10 days, because it may take a few days for you to adapt to a new flute.
g
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by glauber
Re: flute shopping....
Hi Emily and welcome to the session.
I'm not an experienced flute player, but I recently went through the hoops in looking for a decent flute. For wooden models available with and without keys, one maker comes to mind for providing flutes with hole (key) patterns to match your hands.
Skip Healy (www.skiphealy.com) is a highly regarded maker here in the States (Rhode Island). Check out the testimonials on his site. He mailed an adjustable flute to a player so she could decide how she wanted the holes before ordering her custom made one. Some makers do this by building a joint into the flute body between the right and left hands (allowing you to rotate the holes for a more comfortable finger posture), but Healy will make a single piece with the holes offset after you've tried his adjustable flute to get the position just the way you want it. And his prices--even with this kind of service--are in that $1,000 US range, with short waiting periods.
I ended up buying a Desi Seery keyless polymer flute for my first attempt at this and I'm very happy with it. It sounds 99 percent as good as a wooden flute at one-third the cost, and it won't dry out and crack in Montana's drought-stricken summers. Available with and without keys, but it's sized for larger hands. You can check them out at www.csagraphics.com/seery. Another good polymer (and wooden) flute maker is Michael Cronolly at M&E Flutes. Go to http://homepage.eircom.net/~mandeflutes
Word has it that M&E's now come in a modified Rudall pattern for smaller hands.
Finally, talk to David Migoya at Fyfer Restorations (see the links section on this site). He's in Colorado and deals in better wooden flutes (and lots of whistles), vintage to contemporary. He's also a fine trad Irish flute player.
Hope this helps!
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: flute shopping....
I understand what you mean about the hole spacing. I've purchased a flute from a fella in Derry and am waiting for it to be made so in the meantime I thought I'd buy a cheap bamboo flute just to sort of practice on. Not a bad tone but as far as covering the holes it's a bit of a nightmare. Hope the real thing is better!!
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by searai
Re: flute shopping....
The bamboo flute will be worse than the real thing. That's because bamboo is cylindrical, and there are fewer tricks you can play to make the holes more usable. The real thing will have a conical body (i hope!
), and will be better than the bamboo for sure, but still not as comfortable as a modern flute.
g
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by glauber
Re: flute shopping....
I can vouch for Skip, I know him fairly well as well as most of the people who work in his shop. He's extremely willing to make a flute to suit the player. I know he makes "Small Hand Models" but he might be willing to make a flute with extra small right hand spacing - but I can't promise. Desi Seery, Ralph Sweet & most other makers make a "Small Hands" spacing flute.
On a side note, piping grip is probably what your refering to with the on the "flat of the bone" grip. The other way of holding the flute is using the fingertips to plug the holes. I'm no expert at all but I use my finger tips on the right hand (my knuckles come out at 45 degree angle from the body of the flute) & I use a piping grip on the left hand & I feel very comfortable with that grip. I've seen folks use a straight pipering grip who were excellent players & I don't see it causing carpel-tunnel. These folks are the exception as most fluters I've met use the fingertip method. It all boils down to your comfort, it doesn't effect your overall sound a bit. I would suggest one of Skip's flutes, I've also played some Sweets which are good cheap flutes - but they are cheap flutes & can limit you in the long run. I played a seery & liked it alot, same goes for M&E flutes. I played an old Ruddle & Rose Perfected & had a hard time, lots of wind - a great flute but not for a beginer to wooden flutes. I've never tried one of Terry McGee's but I've heard he has a whole other approach to flute making than most flute makers.
But all of this doesn't amount to a hill of beans, because these are my opinions & yours could be different. Instead of going to SF to visit "Lark's" most makers have a thirty day return policy & a thirty day "test drive" only costs shipping if you decide the flute isn't your cup of tea. That way you can sample all the great makers & shop around without traveling. Another thing Lark's doesn't carry alot of the big makers of our time.
Hope this helps a little
~b
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: flute shopping....
Wow these are all very helpful responses, thank you! My only concern with the 'small hands' models would be intonation, but apparently these makers have factored that into the equation. I will certainly contact Skip Healy, among others, & keep you posted on the endeavor.
(how embarrassing to learn after all these years I have 'small hands!')
btw unless I completely misheard them on the telephone, Lark's return policy is a mere 3 days. In the middle of nowhere, I'm lucky to get the post office once a week. They did, however, offer to order any or all flutes from the warehouse in advance to have them in-shop should I plan a visit. *shrug*
# Posted on April 11th 2002 by emily_bmore
Small hands
Emily,
I have small hands too. It doesn't need to stop you. It's all a question of practice, like everything. But a nicely contoured Rudall model feels wonderfull under the fingers, makes my M&E feel like a heavy stick. Oh well...
3 days is way too little of a return policy. Maybe you can go there, try all the flutes, then buy the one you like directly from the maker.
You may want to listen in and ask the same questions in the "woodenflute" email list before you make your purchase. Subscribe through www.woodenflute.com. Great people there, and many makers.
g
# Posted on April 12th 2002 by glauber
Re: flute shopping....
Hi Emily_Az,
I'm brand new to the Session and this is my first submission (and there was much rejoicing), but I had to at least add a few cents to the previous great advice. I went through the same thing, since I too am a "small hands" fluter (must we start a support group?) and was on the flute search a few years back. I was really hoping to buy used. Just as I was about to give up, someone on the woodenflute.com list advertised one, a five key, for sale. As I inquired I learned that the seller (in Scotland, selling a George Ormiston blackwood w/ silver) also was smallhanded and said the flute had been great for her. So after some communication, we even worked up a "friendly contract" that we both signed agreeing to a 30-day trial period. It was a great experience! I think I must play the piper way: flatfingered, using the second pad of my fingers to cover the holes on the right hand, and never notice problems, though it may look funny. Left hand gets sore if I haven't played for a while, since it's a heavier flute than silver boehm. So. . . what am I saying?
1. You could try used,
2. Try George O.
Hope you're search goes well!
God bless ya,
Colleen
# Posted on April 15th 2002 by cdavick
Re: flute shopping....
update: So I emailed a bunch of makers, including Hammy Hamilton, Skip Healy, Desi Seery, & Michael Cronnolly. M&E in fact has a modified Rudall & Rose in polymer which he has been making for a few months, apparently with great success & praise. Without asking for a deposit or anything, he has sent me a keyless model in the mail to determine if it's a good fit for my hands, with keys to be added later.
Here are a few links he included in his lovely email.
http://www.granitehillsdesign.com/michael/mp3/m_and_e_rudall.mp3
>
> Also a photo at:
>
> http://www.granitehillsdesign.com/michael/photos/rudallme.jpg
I should also mention that all the makers have responded with timely, affable, informative emails, but M&E beat everyone to the punch by actually sending me a flute without my even asking!
Stay tuned...!
I
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by emily_bmore
Re: flute shopping....
Hey try a crack at a free Skip Healy flute,
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/480
or
http://www.skiphealy.com/frames/fr_contests.htm
Good luck
Brad
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by B Rad
Re: flute shopping....
Geez Brad, quit advertising it or we'll never have a chance to win one of those Healy flutes....
Emily, please let us know what you think of the M&E modified design. I've seen some rave reviews on the wooden flute list.
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by Will Harmon
Michael Cronnolly
Isn't he a great guy?
I love my M&E flute too. I have the old model, but i think the new "Rudall" model may be a better fit for small hands. As you try it, remember to give it time. This is a different kind of flute for you, and even if you have many years of playing classical flute, this will be different (it was for me), so it won't sound real good at first. It may take you a week or two to get it to sound right. Michael would be glad to give you some playing advice if you ask him.
For me, the greatest differences were:
(1) "cover the hole": allow your lower lip to cover about half of the embochure hole.
(2) blow more "downwards" than you would with a modern flute.
(3) don't be afraid to use a LOT of air. The trad flute has more resistance and can take whatever you give it. The more air you blow in, the more "Irish" you will sound. I'm convinced that some Irish players were born with 3 lungs.
The low E is the hardest note for me (E is a weak note in the trad flute, due to limitations of the human hand). I know i'm blowing it right when the low E sounds ok.
Have fun!!!
g
# Posted on April 17th 2002 by glauber
Re: flute shopping....
woo hoo i"m all over that contest! I thought it would be obscure Irish flute questions, but hey that's just about as easy as "what have I got in my pocket?"
side note on wood vs polymer: the fiddle player in my session, her husband made her this great wooden music stand which in less that six months of high desert dwelling has developed 2 prominent cracks. Not sure I want my first Irish flute venture to end as such, even with extensive maintenance, etc. I can barely walk my dogs every day, poor kids.
# Posted on April 19th 2002 by emily_bmore
Flute Craicks
Emily,
it's said that pouring half a pint of Guiness down the embochure hole at the end of the session prevents cracks.
Seriously, African blackwood is very tough, it won't crack easily. But i think you're doing the right thing, start with the polymer, see if you want to go to a wooden flute later, and even if you do, you might want to keep the M&E as something you can schlep around without much thought.
# Posted on April 19th 2002 by glauber
Re: flute shopping....
LOL since I"m living on the Navajo Indian reservation (which is "dry," ie no alcohol allowed), I'm probably the only member of thesession without instant access to alcohol of any type, much less Guinness on tap :(
*sob*
However, the situation does lend itself to great band names, ie the Apache County Ceili Band (see the Sawdoctors ref) or simply, the Best Irish Band in the Navajo Nation. Catchy, huh? We were even thinking of competing in the Prairie Home Companion Towns Under 2,000 Contest, but I have learned our town actually has almost 3,500 residents, although mostly Navajo.
Can't wait for my flute! Thought I'd come out here to learn Native American flute & my ITM is blossoming instead.
# Posted on April 20th 2002 by emily_bmore