The Session >> Discussions >> How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
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How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Well, I know there are some fiddlers out there that have it. I'm not quite sure about Hornpipes, but Reels I can definitely hear something there.. It's early in the morning for me so I might be wording this wrong or talking about something else haha.
REELS. That rhythm I'm talking about, which I'm sure some of you may be familiar with, is pretty distinct, like how Kevin Burke plays, there's this accent to his reels, ESPECIALLY Bonnie Kate/Jenny's Chickens. Can anyone do it? Does anyone know HOW to do it? Well there are other fiddlers that do it too, Liz Caroll I think, Liz Doherty.. Ahhh.. I forget some but YES~!
Hornpipe-wise, I think Jimmy Devine mentioned something about a rhythm and the way Andy McGann plays "Off to California" in A.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You're probably hearing an emphasis on the off-beat or backbeat which is pretty universal in modern Irish fiddling. That means on beats 2 and 4 of your bar. Am I right?
If this is what you are hearing, then one could suggest exercises and bowing patterns to help you with this kind of thing. But actually I think a better idea is just to keep on listening, listening, listening and trying to copy what you hear. Watching really helps too. Soon enough you'll just start doing it, like magic.
The trouble with learned bowing patterns is that you can easily get locked into them. I'm a big backbeat fan myself but I get turned off when I hear fiddlers who just emphasise the backbeat constantly with the same kind of bowing. The melody gets lost and they become a kind of rhythm machine.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Oh, teatime in England for those who don't live here is a time between 4 o,clock and 6 o,clock, where everybody sits down at a table and eat scones with jam on, and drink copious amounts of indian tea . . . and at the same time watch Blue Peter on the telly.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow,
Is this tune here in standard notation? I think I get your drift, but ABCs take me forever to read. I know they're quicker to learn, but I've been reading sheet music for so long I never really bothered with 'em.
Thanks!
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I know you've been warned off of using set bowing patterns, but it's still a good idea to learn the old 3-3-2 pattern- that's three notes bowed, followed by three slurred, followed by two bowed, per eight note bar. Of course you often will not have eight to a bar, so you'll have to adapt, but that's the standard bowing a lot of Irish fiddlers use.
As a general rule it's also good to try to bow "across" the beat, for example across bar lines, it helps prevent a "plodding" rhythm.
Note also that it does'nt really matter if you start with an up or down bow.
I think what you're trying to describe is the "swing" or "lift" that a lot of good Irish Trad musicians have in their playing, not just fiddlers. When you slow it down it starts to sound almost like a dotted rhythm, but not quite. This is why you will often find hornpipes written with a dotted rhtyhm in older books and manuscripts, even though it is'nt really how they are played.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
BAsically, what we're saying is that Irish music isn't really notatable in detail, abc and the dots being little more than a guide to the overall shape of the tune. It boils down to listening, remembering and trying to copy what you hear. When you do this, little discrepancies (data "noise" in geek-speak) creep in and the tune changes ever so slightly. This is how the Tradition develops.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I'm no fan of the hornpipe as most people seem to play them. I hate that tedious, repetative up beat, not to mention the dum dum dum endings. but some, however, are truly wonderful. I think you have to really attack them. Franky Gavin does this well, no dum de dum de dum in his hornpipe playing.e
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
No it isn't. Hornpipes are dotted. If you un-dot them, play them straight, you're just playing it like a slow reel.
Having said that. Take a listen to one of my all time favourites, Mat Molloy playing The Groves on that Mat and Donal album. He plays it almost straight, but retains a terrific flowing lilt. And the triplets are so smooth and even. Lovely.l
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
The hornpipe debate is interesting; there seems to be two distinctive camps: 1) the dotted, and 2) the straight (or) not so dotted. The interesting thing I've noticed is that examples from camp 1 are often more straight than dotted, if at all in some cases. It leads me to wonder how much our perceptions are effected by our preconceptions.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I wish people would stop confusing "dotted" and "swung". Also the hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time. I still to this day have never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked, but I suppose that just boils down to personal taste in the end.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Uh.. Dow, this is an Irish music site. That means it's about music from Ireland... you know -- the music Irish people play. What you're saying is like declaring that you hate the way people from Mexico cook Mexican food. The taste you develope has to relate to what is relevant. In other words -- you don't like Irish hornpipes... and that's fine, no one is forcing you to play them, but just try to remember -- this site is about Irish music.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Did I say "hate"? I like some Irish hornpipes, but the way most Irish musicians play them does nothing for me, that's all. What I'm saying has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this site is about Irish music. Like I said, it boils down to personal taste.
BTW "music from Ireland... you know -- the music Irish people play". I'm not Irish and neither are you ',:-|
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yes I have. Matt Molloy's one of my favourite flute players and I love his playing, but The Groves just sounds like a slow reel to me, not what I recognise as a hornpipe. It's the same when people start hornpipes at our session. It just sounds to me like people are trying to play a reel but don't know it well enough to play fast or something, and the tune just limps along with its inappropriate rolls and backbeat emphasis, all dumty-dum-dum and daggy and twee. And then they finish the set and someone says "that's a nice set of hornpipes", and I think to myself, horror-struck, "those were meant to be *hornpipes*?!" I find myself wishing that the musicians would just speed up and play it as a reel and be done with it.
Michael I agree with you about the attacking thing. I think hornpipes should be like fast slides, not slow reels. You can either hear them as slow, limping and rumty-tum, or you can hear them as fast, aggressive and crisply articulated tunes that make you want to dance or stamp your foot on the floor so hard it goes through the floorboards. It's like I said, it boils down to personal taste, but I know which one of the 2 I'd pick.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dotted = a dotted quaver followed by a semiquaver, giving a heavy-light ratio of 3:1 - for most people this ratio is too much, and it ends up sounding like ker-chunk ker-chunk. The only reason people ever write dotted sheetmusic for reels/hornpipes/jigs is to attempt to represent swing.
Swing = for most musicians that put swing in their reels/hornpipes, the heavy-light ratio is close to 2:1, or in sheetmusic terms, an *undotted* quaver followed by a semiquaver. Obviously degrees of swing are going to vary depending on the muso, but for what people term as a musician who plays heavily swung, it's usually somewhere close to 2:1. Micheal O'Raghallaigh for example has 2:1, Matt Molloy has much less swing and plays straighter.
So in conclusion, musos like Micheal O'R have swing, but play undotted. That's the difference.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I agree completely. It's that back beat I find so awfully dull and repetative, I hate it. Another recorded set I like though is on that Frankie Gavin and Paul Brock record, A tribute to Joe Cooly. Can't remember the names of the tunes, but terrific playing. It works because of the emphasis on the down beat.
I know what you mean about the similarities between hornpipes and slides, but I'm not sure I agree. It is true that slide's trademark of tieing the first two notes in the triplet looks the same on paper as the dotted notes in a horpipe, but i think the accent is very different. Also, If you play a set of slides at a crackling tempo, a hornpipe at that same tempo (One 6/8 slide bar being half the 4/4 hornpipe bar) is still a bit languid for my taste. e
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yeah, I meant in terms of the rhythm, or dottedness or whatever you want to call it, rather than accent. I hate the backbeat thing, and so many musicians do it with hornpipes, and it sounds *crap*! That rhythm could give Irish music a bad name - it makes it sound like morris music or something. If I hear it at a session I feel like committing seppuku in protest. I've not got that Frankie Gavin recording but I'd be interested to hear it. I desperately want someone to show me that there are Irish musicians out there whose playing of hornpipes I could potentially enjoy. Please, someone?
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yes please Michael, please send it to me!
What horrifies me the most is that heaps of musicians who are otherwise fantastic make their hornpipes sound like shite. Sometimes I'll play an album and be blown away by their fantastic musicianship, and then it gets to a set of hornpipes and I'm so disappointed that I want to take the CD out and snap it in half.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
So swing is empahsising the note and dotting it is increasing it in length.
Is this right ?
I’m a bit confused as prior to playing trad I learnt blues guitar, and was told that
swing was a dotted rhythm, like playing a triplet but with the middle note gone,
and the first note taking the time of the second – maybe not relevant, or just plain wrong !
I thought that a hornpipe was generally played slower (not essential or definitive) and had
more swing than a reel, which is played straighter than a hornpipe – is this right ?
But also, hornpipes have certain motifs that are nessassry to make it a hornpipe for dancers,
Is it these “motifs” that make some people not like hornpipes, or is it that fact that some players
put too much swing that puts people off. ie do you dislike hormpipes because they’re hornpipes
(but would like them if they were played more like reels), or dislike them because they are generally
played incorrectly.
Molloy’s Groves to me sounds like a slow reel, I must listen to it again – I’ve been looking for the Joe Cooley
tribute album for some time and can’t get it – are their any other good examples in other Frankie Gavin albums?
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Bingo -- that was the reference I was making; "Alice's Restaurant."
Dow wrote:
"I'm not Irish and neither are you"
That's exactly my point; you and I aren't Irish. If we seek to play a style established by Irish people, then it seems self-defeating to claim that you've "never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked." This indicates that you are ignoring the very source of the music you endeavor to play.
As people outside of Ireland, we are in a strange position when we set out to reproduce music from a culture that we don't live within. Maybe some of us can claim it as our own, but personally -- I can't. I'm not suggesting that we can't participate in the growth of it, but I think we might end up diluting it if we re-invent it's definitions. For that reason, I don't think someone would be trying to understand it if they simply dismiss the source.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Now, back to the rhythm: I've noticed that Irish players employ different amounts of "swing" to their hornpipes -- if any. It does in fact come down to a matter of taste. But I have also noticed that local musicians, here in the SF area (including me until set dancers inspired me to take a second look,) tend to play hornpipes slow and with an exaggerated lilt. When I began to investigate hornpipes, the first thing I did was to return to the recorded sources where I learned the tunes and I discovered that I had somehow slowed them down and added more "swing." I'm not sure why I did this, but I sought to change the way I play them ever since. It might have been easier to ignore the source and just play them the way everyone else here does, but my goal was to play Irish music, not San Francisco music.
Side note: The local musicians here who don't play hornpipes slow and with a lot of swing are the others who also play for sets.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
"If we seek to play a style established by Irish people, then it seems self-defeating to claim that you've never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked."
I do not seek to play hornpipes in the Irish style. I dislike that style, so why should I want to play like that? I play the tunes the way I want to hear them.
Quite apart from that, to talk about Irish music as though it exists as a completely separate entity, unconnected with other musics of the British Isles is absolutely ridiculous. I'm surprised you see it that way Jack.
Re: Cathal Hayden's Home Ruler. At least he doesn't emphasize the backbeat *too* annoyingly, but there's not enough swing there for my liking, but that's just my personal preference. Obviously he's brilliant, it's just I don't like that style of playing hornpipes - it might as well be a reel. I also don't like synths but there you go...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
No I'm not saying that. I play Irish hornpipes, but I play them in a different style to how most Irish musicians would play them. For every other genre of tune, I play Irish style. For hornpipes I don't because I dislike the way Irish musicians play them. What's wrong with that?
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I think there's an increasing tendency to flatten tunes out and play them without swing these days. I'm thinking of bands like Calico (for their Irish sets, specifically). To me it just sounds commercialized and bland. I'm sure it's because melody players have come to rely too much on the backers to supply rhythm/groove. Played without backing, flattened out tunes just sound like a bunch of notes joined together. I find it very unlistenable to.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow, If you read Calico's liner notes on their first recording -- it's all about the back-up. They state as their mission that the back-up has equal importance. That said, it's true that there is a variety of ways to play hornpipes -- so why do some folks in here claim that there's only one "correct" way? (read back and you'll find them) This is why I try not to limit the way I play hornpipes to one "correct" style. In sessions, I'll play it however the person starting it wants, but if I start one a little faster and minimal "swing" -- I would hope to get the same respect.
“I don’t get no respect.” - Rodney Dangerfield, 1921 - 2004 RIP
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Would any of the above contributers care to comment on any of the following recordings, some of which I'm sure you have, or have heard, and where they fit in to this particular discussion?
Frankie Gavin's been mentioned: - any comments on his playing of any of the following? :
"Murphy's" on the LP with Alec Finn,
"Johnston's" with "De Danann", [Anthem?]
"Showman' Fancy / Thomond Bridge" - "Irlande" with Aidan Coffey & Artie McGlynn.
"Derry " - "tribute To Joe Cooley with Paul
Brock.
And what about "Johnny Cope" by either "Planxty", Noel Hill or Fintan Vallely?
"The Independent" by Tom Doorley on "Danu's" 1st.
Lastly "The Japanese" by either Begley & Cooney or Dermot Byrne.
Just curious.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Kenny, most of your examples have what I would call more of a "lilt". If you isolate the melody away from the back-up the "swing" if you like, is minimal, but not "straight" Reels have a shuffle to them; (dubba dubba dubba dubba dubba) and the hornpipes more of a lilt to my ear (dubba dub dubba dub dubba dub dubba dub) It's there, but it's more like there's an emphisis or a weight on certain notes rather than giving them a definate extra length.
The example of Planxty and Noel Hill and Tony Linnane is of particular interest to me because these were included in my introduction to ITM. When I went back to the recordings and paid closer attention, I realized that I had unknowingly exaggerated the lilt or swing and slowed down the tempo. I wasn't alone -- everyone around me seemed to be doing the same thing.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Any dancers about? I thought there were two basic speeds for an Irish hornpipe. One at a good clip, the other slower.
I always like James Kelly for hornpipes on the fiddle. And as always, hearing him live in a low-stress setting when he is playing loose and free is better than recordings.
My pence worth, but I've been watching this build. There was a tale that the further west you went, over California way, the higher and the louder the dance got, and the more layed back and prarie like the geography of the music became. But hey, that's like the one that breast implants grow on trees over there. Can you imagine the hell in a strong wind... (- alright, a thruppence worth...)
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
There's a pub in California, Berkeley to be precise, where a man named Terry O'Neill (RIP) taught Irish ceili dancing. He had a style that was very energetic and even aerobic where the dancers would jump around like gazelles. Some of these dancers would show up across the bay in SF at the Plough and join in with the set dancing. You could always tell who they were because as they moved though the figures their head would bob up and down. This became known locally as the “Berkeley Style” of Irish dance.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You know what, you guys should just record yourselves playing a set of hornpipes in the way you play it/like to play it so I can finally understand what you guys are trying to say without me being confused by thinking to much and and and...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Like I said earlier on in the thread, the whole hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time. Jack will continue to tell me that I'm saying there's only one correct way to play them. All I've ever said in this thread is that I have a preferred way of playing them. Anything else sounds shite to me. Not incorrect, just shite. Doesn't matter how famous or amazing the musician. I'll continue to play them my way. If you don't like that, tough. Sorry!
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Michael thank you very much for sending me the mp3 of the Frankie Gavin hornpipes, which I've just opened up and listened to. You're right about the way they're played. I can quite happily listen to them. I'm so happy and excited! Not only does the rhythm sound nice to my ear, but they're taken at a nice fast pace, there's no horrid backbeat emphasis, and here was the real surprise for me: the staccato notes are even in the right place! They sound as though they're being attacked and played like the musician means it, not just limping along lamely like a reel with a hangover. Thank you Michael you've made my day and restored my faith in Irish music
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
ALERT THE MEDIA!
Sydney, Australia
Mark Anderson, Brit-box player, actually said today that he likes the way an Irish musician plays hornpipes. He said, "I can quite happily listen to them." The ITM world is stunned by this announcement.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Not as stunned as I am, Jack, believe me. After the last few recordings/sessions I'd begun to give up hope. I had my sword drawn from its scabbard and called a witness for my seppuku ritual.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Well I didn't think that "the whole hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time" and it's possible that not everyone thinks it's just about two people who disagree.
The problem I have is that people mean different things by swing, dotted, lilt etc,
and practical examples would be helpful.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I know what you mean. I wish everyone would just agree with me so we don't have to argue anymore - I hate confrontation. I'm sick of telling Jack he's wrong - he just never listens, do you Jack ;-D
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Jack said: "In sessions, I'll play it however the person starting it wants, but if I start one a little faster and minimal "swing" -- I would hope to get the same respect... 'I don’t get no respect'. - Rodney Dangerfield, 1921 - 2004 RIP"
Is that what this is about, respect? If you want me to say I respect you for playing a certain way that's fine. You're entitled to play and enjoy the tunes in whatever way you please. Remember, when I say "you're wrong" I'm just being ironic. All I'm saying on this thread is that I personally dislike the way most Irish musicians play hornpipes, except for Frankie Gavin!
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
If someone else starts a tune, it is respect and only good manners to to play it in the same way. Otherwise, keep quiet during the proceedings or go for a pint. You don't have to like or approve of how the tune is played, though, and you can even mention this afterwards if you're brave or tactful enough.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
That's an interesting one John. I was talking about this to someone at our session on Sunday, about how some people will adjust their rhythm to fit in with whoever started the set, and some people just refuse to compromise on their rhythm.
Maybe I'm just picky when it comes to hornpipes. One thing's for sure, if someone started a flattened-out set of hornpipes and inflicted that backbeat thing on me, I'd definitely choose that moment to go to the bar. I'd go to the loo, but in our pub you can actually hear it better in there because it resonates, so that would be like my living hell, having a rumty-tum hornpipe resonating in my ears as I'm having a widdle. It'd be like being in this hellish parallel universe where you get tortured with backbeat, and all there is is daggy hornpipes - you never get to hear a decent tune again. Maybe the toilets would be a good place for my seppuku ritual. At least it would be easy to clean up after me - you could just hose it all down.
We had a great session early one morning in the loo of the hotel in Milwaukee during the fest there. The vacuum cleaners corraled us and we just couldn't leave go of the tunes, so we had a loozy of a session. I think we tried it again the next year, but the joy went out of it after a few minutes.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I notice some people have asked me to post a recording. I haven't the courage to do it on my own, but if someone else did, I'd do it - if I had somewhere to post it. Or should I just ignore the requests
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Conán McDonnell wrote: "Hey Jack, if they sound better in the loo that must be 'cos you're not playing." -- Conán, you're wrong. That's why the session sounds better from the bar.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
In that loo session, we had a mandolin, fiddle, bouzouki, and mandocello. It was really bright with all those strings, and the fiddle sounded wonderfully bassy in comparison. I remember trying the lower octave when I could.
Re: Why do sessions always sound better from the loo?
Jode, *ahem* study the subject line carefully now -- it's about how sessions sound FROM the loo -- not IN the loo. I"m having a little difficulty getting my head around the idea of sitting in a stall playing my instrument with other musicians sitting in other stalls playing theirs.
John -- please restrain yourself from comment -- if at all possible.
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You'll be pleased to know I'm going out now to hear a great flute player, Claire Mann at Leith Folk Club. She's no slouch on the fiddle either but excels on the flute-a former All Ireland Champion.
Lads, lads, does it always have to come down to potty talk, or is it just something about hornpipes that drives you this way? But as we've gone there, and I've been sitting back quietly enjoying the wind-up and the shenanigans, while strings maybe sound good in the loo, don't you think reeds and winds sound like shight?
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I stumbled across this thread today - if you've not read it before, have a look - priceless stuff , brilliant ! It's the perfect 'thesession.org' thread, combining useful (albeit varied) views and learned insight with great humour
How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Well, I know there are some fiddlers out there that have it. I'm not quite sure about Hornpipes, but Reels I can definitely hear something there.. It's early in the morning for me so I might be wording this wrong or talking about something else haha.
REELS. That rhythm I'm talking about, which I'm sure some of you may be familiar with, is pretty distinct, like how Kevin Burke plays, there's this accent to his reels, ESPECIALLY Bonnie Kate/Jenny's Chickens. Can anyone do it? Does anyone know HOW to do it? Well there are other fiddlers that do it too, Liz Caroll I think, Liz Doherty.. Ahhh.. I forget some but YES~!
Hornpipe-wise, I think Jimmy Devine mentioned something about a rhythm and the way Andy McGann plays "Off to California" in A.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
We need Dow as the resident expert on how a hornpipe should be played. But he is off having fun at a session tonight (Oz time).
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Donough
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You're probably hearing an emphasis on the off-beat or backbeat which is pretty universal in modern Irish fiddling. That means on beats 2 and 4 of your bar. Am I right?
If this is what you are hearing, then one could suggest exercises and bowing patterns to help you with this kind of thing. But actually I think a better idea is just to keep on listening, listening, listening and trying to copy what you hear. Watching really helps too. Soon enough you'll just start doing it, like magic.
The trouble with learned bowing patterns is that you can easily get locked into them. I'm a big backbeat fan myself but I get turned off when I hear fiddlers who just emphasise the backbeat constantly with the same kind of bowing. The melody gets lost and they become a kind of rhythm machine.
Hornpipes... can you be more specific?
Steve
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yeh, come on now all you out there, and let us ALL share the "Secret of the Rhythm".We could make a blockbuster movie out of it once we find out.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Justintime
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
watermelon watermelon
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Please excuse my grammer, there's too many "outs".
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Justintime
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Have you had one for your tea?
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Justintime
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Oh, teatime in England for those who don't live here is a time between 4 o,clock and 6 o,clock, where everybody sits down at a table and eat scones with jam on, and drink copious amounts of indian tea . . . and at the same time watch Blue Peter on the telly.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Justintime
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Here's an easy way. Take any reel or hornpipe and look at its abc. For example this one:
M:4/4
|:DEFA GEFE|DEFA defa|g2ed cAGE|(3FGA GF EAGE|
DEFA GEFE|DEFA defa|g2ed cAGE|(3FGA GE D4:|
|:d2fd adfa|bfaf gfed|cA~A2 BG~G2|AGFD EFGe|
defa g2fg|a2ge fedB|ABce dBAG|(3FGA GE D4:|
If you play it as written it sounds flat and crap. Change the note values so it's in 12/8:
M:12/8
|:D2E F2A G2E F2E|D2E F2A d2e f2a|g3 e2d c2A G2E|FGA G2F E2A G2E|
D2E F2A G2E F2E|D2E F2A d2e f2a|g3 e2d c2A G2E|FGA G2E D6:|
|:d3 f2d a2d f2a|b2f a2f g2f e2d|c2A AAA B2G GGG|A2G F2D E2F G2e|
d2e f2a g3 f2g|aba g2e f2e d2B|A2B c2e d2B A2G|FGA G2E D6:|
Play it as written slowly. Keep playing slowly in that rhythm until you get used to the feel of it. Then when you're comfortable with it, speed up.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow, you hit the nail on the head.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by B Rad
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow,
Is this tune here in standard notation? I think I get your drift, but ABCs take me forever to read. I know they're quicker to learn, but I've been reading sheet music for so long I never really bothered with 'em.
Thanks!
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by ketida
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I know you've been warned off of using set bowing patterns, but it's still a good idea to learn the old 3-3-2 pattern- that's three notes bowed, followed by three slurred, followed by two bowed, per eight note bar. Of course you often will not have eight to a bar, so you'll have to adapt, but that's the standard bowing a lot of Irish fiddlers use.
As a general rule it's also good to try to bow "across" the beat, for example across bar lines, it helps prevent a "plodding" rhythm.
Note also that it does'nt really matter if you start with an up or down bow.
I think what you're trying to describe is the "swing" or "lift" that a lot of good Irish Trad musicians have in their playing, not just fiddlers. When you slow it down it starts to sound almost like a dotted rhythm, but not quite. This is why you will often find hornpipes written with a dotted rhtyhm in older books and manuscripts, even though it is'nt really how they are played.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Murph
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
BAsically, what we're saying is that Irish music isn't really notatable in detail, abc and the dots being little more than a guide to the overall shape of the tune. It boils down to listening, remembering and trying to copy what you hear. When you do this, little discrepancies (data "noise" in geek-speak) creep in and the tune changes ever so slightly. This is how the Tradition develops.
Trevor
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
If you're trying to read JUST ABC's, don't -_-;
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
Boo yes!
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
And thanks Dow! I'll definitely have to try that out when I get the time!
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
::Has time to try it::
I haven't actually *bowed* it YET, but from what I'm playing, I don't feel/see/hear a difference! It sounds like playing a hornpipe slowly -_-
By the way, how are hornpipes bowed? Sorry if it was already mentioned somewhere up there, I'm quite tired.`!
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
watermelon watermelon|watermelon watermelon|
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by TomB-R
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I'm no fan of the hornpipe as most people seem to play them. I hate that tedious, repetative up beat, not to mention the dum dum dum endings. but some, however, are truly wonderful. I think you have to really attack them. Franky Gavin does this well, no dum de dum de dum in his hornpipe playing.e
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
To dot, or not too dot... that IS the question.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
No it isn't. Hornpipes are dotted. If you un-dot them, play them straight, you're just playing it like a slow reel.
Having said that. Take a listen to one of my all time favourites, Mat Molloy playing The Groves on that Mat and Donal album. He plays it almost straight, but retains a terrific flowing lilt. And the triplets are so smooth and even. Lovely.l
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
That's why I said "too dot." If you employ a dotted rhythm (optional) how much you dot it makes all the difference.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Precisely.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by jakki S
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
oo, your subtlety was lost on me
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
When it comes to playing hornpipes -- subtlety is key.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
No, attack them†
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
KILL KILL!!!! (jumping up and down)
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I think you are right, Michael. Attack - yes, speedy, no.
Jack, calm doon, my son.
Jim
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
The hornpipe debate is interesting; there seems to be two distinctive camps: 1) the dotted, and 2) the straight (or) not so dotted. The interesting thing I've noticed is that examples from camp 1 are often more straight than dotted, if at all in some cases. It leads me to wonder how much our perceptions are effected by our preconceptions.
# Posted on October 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I too wonder how much the way we perceive we play certain tunes varies from the way we actually play them ...
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I wish people would stop confusing "dotted" and "swung". Also the hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time. I still to this day have never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked, but I suppose that just boils down to personal taste in the end.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Uh.. Dow, this is an Irish music site. That means it's about music from Ireland... you know -- the music Irish people play. What you're saying is like declaring that you hate the way people from Mexico cook Mexican food. The taste you develope has to relate to what is relevant. In other words -- you don't like Irish hornpipes... and that's fine, no one is forcing you to play them, but just try to remember -- this site is about Irish music.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Did I say "hate"? I like some Irish hornpipes, but the way most Irish musicians play them does nothing for me, that's all. What I'm saying has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this site is about Irish music. Like I said, it boils down to personal taste.
BTW "music from Ireland... you know -- the music Irish people play". I'm not Irish and neither are you ',:-|
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow, have you heard matt Molloy playing The Groves? I'll e-mail it to you if you havn'tÎ
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Sorry, hands up here.
What IS the difference between dotted and swing.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
How much you dot a rythm is exclusivly to do with where in time the notes are placed, that is, the length of the notes in proportion to each other.
Swing incorporates this but can also give an inmpression of a dotted rythm by accentsing certain notes.
Dots are time only. Swing includes dynamicse
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yes I have. Matt Molloy's one of my favourite flute players and I love his playing, but The Groves just sounds like a slow reel to me, not what I recognise as a hornpipe. It's the same when people start hornpipes at our session. It just sounds to me like people are trying to play a reel but don't know it well enough to play fast or something, and the tune just limps along with its inappropriate rolls and backbeat emphasis, all dumty-dum-dum and daggy and twee. And then they finish the set and someone says "that's a nice set of hornpipes", and I think to myself, horror-struck, "those were meant to be *hornpipes*?!" I find myself wishing that the musicians would just speed up and play it as a reel and be done with it.
Michael I agree with you about the attacking thing. I think hornpipes should be like fast slides, not slow reels. You can either hear them as slow, limping and rumty-tum, or you can hear them as fast, aggressive and crisply articulated tunes that make you want to dance or stamp your foot on the floor so hard it goes through the floorboards. It's like I said, it boils down to personal taste, but I know which one of the 2 I'd pick.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dotted = a dotted quaver followed by a semiquaver, giving a heavy-light ratio of 3:1 - for most people this ratio is too much, and it ends up sounding like ker-chunk ker-chunk. The only reason people ever write dotted sheetmusic for reels/hornpipes/jigs is to attempt to represent swing.
Swing = for most musicians that put swing in their reels/hornpipes, the heavy-light ratio is close to 2:1, or in sheetmusic terms, an *undotted* quaver followed by a semiquaver. Obviously degrees of swing are going to vary depending on the muso, but for what people term as a musician who plays heavily swung, it's usually somewhere close to 2:1. Micheal O'Raghallaigh for example has 2:1, Matt Molloy has much less swing and plays straighter.
So in conclusion, musos like Micheal O'R have swing, but play undotted. That's the difference.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Thanks
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I agree completely. It's that back beat I find so awfully dull and repetative, I hate it. Another recorded set I like though is on that Frankie Gavin and Paul Brock record, A tribute to Joe Cooly. Can't remember the names of the tunes, but terrific playing. It works because of the emphasis on the down beat.
I know what you mean about the similarities between hornpipes and slides, but I'm not sure I agree. It is true that slide's trademark of tieing the first two notes in the triplet looks the same on paper as the dotted notes in a horpipe, but i think the accent is very different. Also, If you play a set of slides at a crackling tempo, a hornpipe at that same tempo (One 6/8 slide bar being half the 4/4 hornpipe bar) is still a bit languid for my taste. e
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yeah, I meant in terms of the rhythm, or dottedness or whatever you want to call it, rather than accent. I hate the backbeat thing, and so many musicians do it with hornpipes, and it sounds *crap*! That rhythm could give Irish music a bad name - it makes it sound like morris music or something. If I hear it at a session I feel like committing seppuku in protest. I've not got that Frankie Gavin recording but I'd be interested to hear it. I desperately want someone to show me that there are Irish musicians out there whose playing of hornpipes I could potentially enjoy. Please, someone?
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Your right, so many people think irish music IS that twee shite. Send me your e-mail address and I'll send you Frankie Gavin doing it rightt
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yes please Michael, please send it to me!
What horrifies me the most is that heaps of musicians who are otherwise fantastic make their hornpipes sound like shite. Sometimes I'll play an album and be blown away by their fantastic musicianship, and then it gets to a set of hornpipes and I'm so disappointed that I want to take the CD out and snap it in half.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow,
What do you think are examples of good hornpipe playing if musicians who are “otherwise fantastic make their hornpipes sound like shite” ?
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Yes, do tell me a recording of a good hornpipe as well! Hornpipe playing that is, assuming you have one ~_~
Armand
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
The KILL KILL reminds me of Arlo Guthrie with veins in his teeth...sorry if it's not relevant, but it did.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
So swing is empahsising the note and dotting it is increasing it in length.
Is this right ?
I’m a bit confused as prior to playing trad I learnt blues guitar, and was told that
swing was a dotted rhythm, like playing a triplet but with the middle note gone,
and the first note taking the time of the second – maybe not relevant, or just plain wrong !
I thought that a hornpipe was generally played slower (not essential or definitive) and had
more swing than a reel, which is played straighter than a hornpipe – is this right ?
But also, hornpipes have certain motifs that are nessassry to make it a hornpipe for dancers,
Is it these “motifs” that make some people not like hornpipes, or is it that fact that some players
put too much swing that puts people off. ie do you dislike hormpipes because they’re hornpipes
(but would like them if they were played more like reels), or dislike them because they are generally
played incorrectly.
Molloy’s Groves to me sounds like a slow reel, I must listen to it again – I’ve been looking for the Joe Cooley
tribute album for some time and can’t get it – are their any other good examples in other Frankie Gavin albums?
What about Cathal Hayden’s playing of Homeruler ?
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Bingo -- that was the reference I was making; "Alice's Restaurant."
Dow wrote:
"I'm not Irish and neither are you"
That's exactly my point; you and I aren't Irish. If we seek to play a style established by Irish people, then it seems self-defeating to claim that you've "never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked." This indicates that you are ignoring the very source of the music you endeavor to play.
As people outside of Ireland, we are in a strange position when we set out to reproduce music from a culture that we don't live within. Maybe some of us can claim it as our own, but personally -- I can't. I'm not suggesting that we can't participate in the growth of it, but I think we might end up diluting it if we re-invent it's definitions. For that reason, I don't think someone would be trying to understand it if they simply dismiss the source.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Now that's a Rag which is a different animal
altogether.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Now, back to the rhythm: I've noticed that Irish players employ different amounts of "swing" to their hornpipes -- if any. It does in fact come down to a matter of taste. But I have also noticed that local musicians, here in the SF area (including me until set dancers inspired me to take a second look,) tend to play hornpipes slow and with an exaggerated lilt. When I began to investigate hornpipes, the first thing I did was to return to the recorded sources where I learned the tunes and I discovered that I had somehow slowed them down and added more "swing." I'm not sure why I did this, but I sought to change the way I play them ever since. It might have been easier to ignore the source and just play them the way everyone else here does, but my goal was to play Irish music, not San Francisco music.
Side note: The local musicians here who don't play hornpipes slow and with a lot of swing are the others who also play for sets.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
"If we seek to play a style established by Irish people, then it seems self-defeating to claim that you've never heard any Irish musician play a hornpipe in a way that I've liked."
I do not seek to play hornpipes in the Irish style. I dislike that style, so why should I want to play like that? I play the tunes the way I want to hear them.
Quite apart from that, to talk about Irish music as though it exists as a completely separate entity, unconnected with other musics of the British Isles is absolutely ridiculous. I'm surprised you see it that way Jack.
Re: Cathal Hayden's Home Ruler. At least he doesn't emphasize the backbeat *too* annoyingly, but there's not enough swing there for my liking, but that's just my personal preference. Obviously he's brilliant, it's just I don't like that style of playing hornpipes - it might as well be a reel. I also don't like synths but there you go...
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Fair enough.
So it's more you don't like it, than everyone's playing it wrong (or on synths)
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
So what you're saying, Dow, is that you don't play Irish hornpipes? That's cool.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
No I'm not saying that. I play Irish hornpipes, but I play them in a different style to how most Irish musicians would play them. For every other genre of tune, I play Irish style. For hornpipes I don't because I dislike the way Irish musicians play them. What's wrong with that?
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I think there's an increasing tendency to flatten tunes out and play them without swing these days. I'm thinking of bands like Calico (for their Irish sets, specifically). To me it just sounds commercialized and bland. I'm sure it's because melody players have come to rely too much on the backers to supply rhythm/groove. Played without backing, flattened out tunes just sound like a bunch of notes joined together. I find it very unlistenable to.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow, If you read Calico's liner notes on their first recording -- it's all about the back-up. They state as their mission that the back-up has equal importance. That said, it's true that there is a variety of ways to play hornpipes -- so why do some folks in here claim that there's only one "correct" way? (read back and you'll find them) This is why I try not to limit the way I play hornpipes to one "correct" style. In sessions, I'll play it however the person starting it wants, but if I start one a little faster and minimal "swing" -- I would hope to get the same respect.
“I don’t get no respect.” - Rodney Dangerfield, 1921 - 2004 RIP
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Would any of the above contributers care to comment on any of the following recordings, some of which I'm sure you have, or have heard, and where they fit in to this particular discussion?
Frankie Gavin's been mentioned: - any comments on his playing of any of the following? :
"Murphy's" on the LP with Alec Finn,
"Johnston's" with "De Danann", [Anthem?]
"Showman' Fancy / Thomond Bridge" - "Irlande" with Aidan Coffey & Artie McGlynn.
"Derry " - "tribute To Joe Cooley with Paul
Brock.
And what about "Johnny Cope" by either "Planxty", Noel Hill or Fintan Vallely?
"The Independent" by Tom Doorley on "Danu's" 1st.
Lastly "The Japanese" by either Begley & Cooney or Dermot Byrne.
Just curious.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Kenny
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Kenny, most of your examples have what I would call more of a "lilt". If you isolate the melody away from the back-up the "swing" if you like, is minimal, but not "straight" Reels have a shuffle to them; (dubba dubba dubba dubba dubba) and the hornpipes more of a lilt to my ear (dubba dub dubba dub dubba dub dubba dub) It's there, but it's more like there's an emphisis or a weight on certain notes rather than giving them a definate extra length.
The example of Planxty and Noel Hill and Tony Linnane is of particular interest to me because these were included in my introduction to ITM. When I went back to the recordings and paid closer attention, I realized that I had unknowingly exaggerated the lilt or swing and slowed down the tempo. I wasn't alone -- everyone around me seemed to be doing the same thing.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I realize by the way that I'm in for a slagging on acount of my "dubs."
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
And what about John Doherty's Loughside Hornpipe? Or the Harvest Home? :p
-Padraig
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Any dancers about? I thought there were two basic speeds for an Irish hornpipe. One at a good clip, the other slower.
I always like James Kelly for hornpipes on the fiddle. And as always, hearing him live in a low-stress setting when he is playing loose and free is better than recordings.
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by Jode
Rub-a-dub-dub, three men in a tub - - -
My pence worth, but I've been watching this build. There was a tale that the further west you went, over California way, the higher and the louder the dance got, and the more layed back and prarie like the geography of the music became. But hey, that's like the one that breast implants grow on trees over there. Can you imagine the hell in a strong wind...
(- alright, a thruppence worth...)
# Posted on October 11th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
There's a pub in California, Berkeley to be precise, where a man named Terry O'Neill (RIP) taught Irish ceili dancing. He had a style that was very energetic and even aerobic where the dancers would jump around like gazelles. Some of these dancers would show up across the bay in SF at the Plough and join in with the set dancing. You could always tell who they were because as they moved though the figures their head would bob up and down. This became known locally as the “Berkeley Style” of Irish dance.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You know what, you guys should just record yourselves playing a set of hornpipes in the way you play it/like to play it so I can finally understand what you guys are trying to say without me being confused by thinking to much and and and...
::Explodes::
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Like I said earlier on in the thread, the whole hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time. Jack will continue to tell me that I'm saying there's only one correct way to play them. All I've ever said in this thread is that I have a preferred way of playing them. Anything else sounds shite to me. Not incorrect, just shite. Doesn't matter how famous or amazing the musician. I'll continue to play them my way. If you don't like that, tough. Sorry!
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Michael thank you very much for sending me the mp3 of the Frankie Gavin hornpipes, which I've just opened up and listened to. You're right about the way they're played. I can quite happily listen to them. I'm so happy and excited! Not only does the rhythm sound nice to my ear, but they're taken at a nice fast pace, there's no horrid backbeat emphasis, and here was the real surprise for me: the staccato notes are even in the right place! They sound as though they're being attacked and played like the musician means it, not just limping along lamely like a reel with a hangover. Thank you Michael you've made my day and restored my faith in Irish music
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
PS your yahoo address is very amusing.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
ALERT THE MEDIA!
Sydney, Australia
Mark Anderson, Brit-box player, actually said today that he likes the way an Irish musician plays hornpipes. He said, "I can quite happily listen to them." The ITM world is stunned by this announcement.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Not as stunned as I am, Jack, believe me. After the last few recordings/sessions I'd begun to give up hope. I had my sword drawn from its scabbard and called a witness for my seppuku ritual.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Seppuku? Cool! Can I be your second? (gets out samurai sword and polish) Happy hara-kiri!
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I've never read such a vainglorious, lugubrious or quixotic brouhaha in my whole life.
Sorry Dow, clicked on your bio to send an email & couldn't help meself. Thinking of something else, laa laa laa, laa laa laa......
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Well I didn't think that "the whole hornpipe debate is a huge waste of time" and it's possible that not everyone thinks it's just about two people who disagree.
The problem I have is that people mean different things by swing, dotted, lilt etc,
and practical examples would be helpful.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I know what you mean. I wish everyone would just agree with me so we don't have to argue anymore - I hate confrontation. I'm sick of telling Jack he's wrong - he just never listens, do you Jack ;-D
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
This website is great fun!
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Jack said: "In sessions, I'll play it however the person starting it wants, but if I start one a little faster and minimal "swing" -- I would hope to get the same respect... 'I don’t get no respect'. - Rodney Dangerfield, 1921 - 2004 RIP"
Is that what this is about, respect? If you want me to say I respect you for playing a certain way that's fine. You're entitled to play and enjoy the tunes in whatever way you please. Remember, when I say "you're wrong" I'm just being ironic. All I'm saying on this thread is that I personally dislike the way most Irish musicians play hornpipes, except for Frankie Gavin!
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
If someone else starts a tune, it is respect and only good manners to to play it in the same way. Otherwise, keep quiet during the proceedings or go for a pint. You don't have to like or approve of how the tune is played, though, and you can even mention this afterwards if you're brave or tactful enough.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
That's an interesting one John. I was talking about this to someone at our session on Sunday, about how some people will adjust their rhythm to fit in with whoever started the set, and some people just refuse to compromise on their rhythm.
Maybe I'm just picky when it comes to hornpipes. One thing's for sure, if someone started a flattened-out set of hornpipes and inflicted that backbeat thing on me, I'd definitely choose that moment to go to the bar. I'd go to the loo, but in our pub you can actually hear it better in there because it resonates, so that would be like my living hell, having a rumty-tum hornpipe resonating in my ears as I'm having a widdle. It'd be like being in this hellish parallel universe where you get tortured with backbeat, and all there is is daggy hornpipes - you never get to hear a decent tune again. Maybe the toilets would be a good place for my seppuku ritual. At least it would be easy to clean up after me - you could just hose it all down.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Why do sessions always sound better from the loo?
I just thought this would be an intriguing subject for a discussion... or a fascinating hijacking of a thread... or maybe this whole idea stinks.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I can imagine certain people "noodling with their instruments" in the lou.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
John John John.... tsk tsk tsk... take your hands out of your pocket now and give us a proper answer.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Hey Jack, if they sound better in the loo that must be 'cos you're not playing ;¬)
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
In loo of a response
We had a great session early one morning in the loo of the hotel in Milwaukee during the fest there. The vacuum cleaners corraled us and we just couldn't leave go of the tunes, so we had a loozy of a session. I think we tried it again the next year, but the joy went out of it after a few minutes.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Jode
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I suppose it could called "Pot noodle".
Sorry Jack, that's still not a sensible answer.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
I notice some people have asked me to post a recording. I haven't the courage to do it on my own, but if someone else did, I'd do it - if I had somewhere to post it. Or should I just ignore the requests
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Dow, what are you talking about? We're talking about why the session sounds better in the loo.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Conán McDonnell wrote: "Hey Jack, if they sound better in the loo that must be 'cos you're not playing." -- Conán, you're wrong. That's why the session sounds better from the bar.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Fair enough.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Hey that sounds about right actually. Must remember to spend more time there
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
In that loo session, we had a mandolin, fiddle, bouzouki, and mandocello. It was really bright with all those strings, and the fiddle sounded wonderfully bassy in comparison. I remember trying the lower octave when I could.
And the hornpipes were especially good...
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Jode
Re: Why do sessions always sound better from the loo?
Jode, *ahem* study the subject line carefully now -- it's about how sessions sound FROM the loo -- not IN the loo. I"m having a little difficulty getting my head around the idea of sitting in a stall playing my instrument with other musicians sitting in other stalls playing theirs.
John -- please restrain yourself from comment -- if at all possible.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Hmmm. My head was swirling a bit there. I get your draft now.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Jode
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
You'll be pleased to know I'm going out now to hear a great flute player, Claire Mann at Leith Folk Club. She's no slouch on the fiddle either but excels on the flute-a former All Ireland Champion.
http://www.clairemann.com/
It's about time she updated her website, though.
# Posted on October 12th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Ahhh, hornpipes and toilets, the relevance!
# Posted on October 13th 2004 by armandale
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Ah pity, I thought we were going to tease out some answers...instead of poo !
# Posted on October 13th 2004 by BegF
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
::dies::
Ahhhhhhh man..
# Posted on October 13th 2004 by armandale
Have you noticed there aren't any women - - -
Lads, lads, does it always have to come down to potty talk, or is it just something about hornpipes that drives you this way? But as we've gone there, and I've been sitting back quietly enjoying the wind-up and the shenanigans, while strings maybe sound good in the loo, don't you think reeds and winds sound like shight?
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
In the loos I frequent, a bit of wind just gets a polite cough.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by ...
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
Michael, I never had you down as a man who frequents loos.
# Posted on October 15th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: How to properly play Reels/Hornpipes and get that rhythm.. [Fiddling]
# Posted on November 30th 2007 by domhnall.