The Session >> Discussions >> "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
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"George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
"George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I had a go at this after reading about it on a link http://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html from Grego's thread a couple of pages ago. I'm making slow progress with it. I think I like the feel of it. It stops you from tensing up and you can switch quickly from picking to strumming just by using your wrist differently instead of changing your hand position/pick orientation/grip etc. Once I've been doing it for a while I'd like to see how I get on picking triplets in reels & jigs. Is anyone else trying this or has anyone tried it and not liked it? Advice anyone?
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I've been trying it since I saw Grego's thread and I find it does help my triplet playing, understanding that I was not lightning fast to start with. I have also noticed the fuller sound that this produces on my Mandola. A down side is that I find that my thumb gets tender but no doubt I will soon develop the neccassary callous in that area.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Graham Dunne has used it,and also Martin Dermody to good affect on guitar.
That`s if you`re refering to standard be-bop technique that was originally coined be the likes of Wes Montgomery,Benson being a contemporary of that style,leaving the hand loose and not over supported by the forearm,but with Benson he seems to have his little finger rested on the body beneath the strings for support.
He`s very good doe.
You would probably have to hit the strings a bit differently for trad playing,as cool laid back sweeping swingin style Benson has ,has alot to do with the way he approaches and comes off the string,angle etc,and(just a possibility) it may not be effective a positioning for rhythmic triplets,must look into it,I`m sure a few good string players in trad already use a similar kind of thing effectively...
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Actually,montgomery didnt use a pick to play with,but alot of benson`s technique replicates that type of sound,
I should think more before I write stuff down
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Interesting, informative link. I read most of the dissertation on picking, read the George Benson section about 3 times. Still cannot get a clear visual image of what the author is describing. The part about the pick being rotated 90 degrees is what throws me, because I don't understand which plane he is describing, x - y, y - z, z - x. ??
Regardless, since you invited suggestions, for what it's worth, here is my latest thinking on picking. It is guided by the overall philosophy of technique that I have been leaning towards over the last 2 - 5 years, which began when I took flamenco lessons for a year when we lived in San Diego. (I will get to the point here in a bit, but invite you to "share the ride" of how I came to my current thinking).
My flamenco teacher emphasized prepared rest strokes with the fingers, (don't worry, I'll get to holding a pick)with the thumb usually anchored on either the low E string or on the body of the guitar for support.
As a side-note, related to the Wes Montgomery style described in the Tuck link at the beginning of this thread, flamenco has a technique known as aza pua. (not sure if I spelled it right) Aza pua is a thumb technique where a thumb rest stroke is followed by a (continued downstroke) thumb brush over the next 2 or 3 adjacent strings, and then a thumb upstroke over the same 2 or 3 strings. This creates a triplet: 1)thumb down rest stroke, 2)thumb down brush on adjacent strings 3) thumb up brush on same strings in step 2. Good flamenco players can do this very fast.
Prior to taking flamenco lessons, I had always followed the teaching of leaving the right hand completely free from the guitar. After being taught the flamenco technique of anchoring the thumb, I began to read other sources that advised not only anchoring the thumb, but sometimes anchoring a finger or 2 on some of the top strings, all to enhance stability and stroke preparedness. I was also reading more about using left hand fingers as anchor and pivot points.
This all came to a head when I had a dream about riding a horse in a rodeo and comparing how well I could ride with no hands compared to riding with both hands hanging on to the reins (did I spell that right - obviously I have no equestrian experience).
Now, my philosophy for both hands is to try to keep at least one digit attached to a string at all times, providing a known reference point. It seems to be helping, making my playing more relaxed and more easily expressive.
So, about holding the pick. As you probably gathered from the above, I play predominantly fingerstyle. I have always liked both the sound and the feel of playing with a pick, but have not done nearly as much. I have experimented over the years with various fingerstyle imitations of playing with a pick, including thumb and index or middle finger alteration, which some players are very good at. Still, these techniques don't seem to have the same sound or feel as playing with a pick. About 2 years ago, I began experimenting with holding my fingers as if I were holding a pick, and using the index fingernail (which protrudes 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch beyond the fingertip) as a pick. This sounds and feels more like playing with a pick. Also, I can alternate very quickly and easily between this technique and fingerstyle, since I don't have to worry about picking up and putting down a pick.
I could say more, but am pressed for time, and also not sure how interesting or relevant what I have said is to anyone else. I hope it is helpful.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Yes, it took me a while to realise what was meant by rotating the pick 90 degrees. That sentence is a bit ambiguous. I think what it means is that, once you've rolled your wrist into the right position, you have to orientate the pick so that it makes contact properly with the strings. This means that instead of having the pointy end of the pick pointing along the same line as the length of your index finger, you have to swivel it so that it sticks out at more or less a right angle. This will help clarify: take a sheet of paper and hold it out in front of you, gripping it tightly between your thumb and index finger. Now relax your grip without letting go of the paper completely. The paper will sort of slump. It's a pick rotation in that plane that is being discussed.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
When I used to play more with a pick, I always liked very thin picks, and often played with one of the more rounded edges of the pick, rather than the pointy end of the pick, which seemed to giveme greater control and more flexibility. Maybe just an individual anomaly...
Other advantages of using the index fingernail as a pick: don't have to worry about dropping it, don't have to worry about finding it, don't spend any money on picks. The picking stroke can be mixed with fingertip flesh for a mellower tone if desired.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
The pointy end would point down so that it makes proper contact with the strings - that's assuming you want to play with the pointy end. I use triple gauge picks so all my corners are pointy anyway!
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I did some more practice today and I think I'm starting to "get it". I'm having to concentrate on keeping my thumb joint locked which is really hard because I've always kept it flexible when picking. It feels weird, but my wrist is so relaxed I'm sure I'll reap the benefit eventually if I keep at it. I'm finding that triplets are okay if you keep your thumb locked and use your wrist a bit.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Also ,jazzers use a very thick pick,up to 3 mils,and I`ve never heard a real good trad player using anything under the flexibility of an orange
tortex dunlop pick,which is about .78 of a mil.
This definitely effects the tone and type of control you have
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I recall trying to decipher Tuck's method quite a while ago and never being sure I got it right.
This may muddy the waters a bit, but I have recently been trying out an approach taught in The Bickford Mandolin Method (a mando tutor from the 1920's, I believe). I ordered it from djangobooks.com, having learned of it from a discussion thread on gypsy jazz technique on the mandolincafe.com website. According to that discussion, gypsy jazz guitarists and those of several other styles traditionally used essentially the same approach.
The emphasis is on down-picked rest strokes for most melody notes, keeping the pick hold and the wrist both as loose as possible. When adding up-strokes, one exactly reverses the down-stroke (keeping the same pick and stroke angle), with almost all motion coming from wrist rotation. The series of exercises builds through downstrokes through alternating strokes to get you to tremolo in a natural progression.
It seemed counter-intuitive to me, but works much better than I expected, and I'm in the process of working up patterns for picking of jigs (working partly from previous threads on this site discussing down-up-down, down-up-down patterns vs. strict down-up-down-up ones).
Carol Kaye uses a fairly similar approach for electric bass technique (pick rather than finger style) in her method books also.
Anyway, the download of the Bickford book is quite reasonable (I think it was $6.00) and has been well worth the time to experiment with. Jim Clemons
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Sometimes the mental / psychological aspect of technique has an impact on playing music. I had an interesting, amusing at the time, thought regarding technique this weekend. In the middle of a tune that has some challenging technical requirements it suddenly occured to me that I didn't need to struggle to get it. All I needed to do was simply put my fingers where they belonged, kinda like filing things alphabetically - just put everything where it belongs. After laughing, I suddenly seemed more focused, more stable, more relaxed, and enjoyed the music more.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I came back to the guitar and ITM from a wide journey through all forms of music associated with the guitar apart from Jazz and Country. I had spent some time dabbling in Flamenco, so I was fascinated by Ceciltguitar's posting.
I have found the accompaniment and fingerstyle were my first achievements (still in progress) but the flat-picking of tunes was the hardest for me coming from my background.
I do find the triplets a problem but then so does Donogh Hennessy. He uses the hammer-on pull-off quite a lot to simulate a triplet when flatpicking.
I have tried most of the things mentioned in the above postings and Tony McManus does use the Thumb/Index combination to flatpick when he is going to revert to fingerstyle halfway through a piece.
I would say that turning the strike angle of the pick through 45deg in two planes is quite effective - visualise that!! But when the triplets are firing I do not need to think about that. I only do that if it isn't working. I have experimented with thin and thick pics and can see advantages in both. The thin pick bends more easily through the motion and doesn't get stuck as easily. The thicker pic cuts through the string better because it is stronger, but it can get caught on the string making you miss a beat.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I forgot to mention that the other trick for getting triplets that sound different is picking through two strings on the down-pick and the third note from an up-pick. This usually will be when the string above is going to sound the same note but it needn't necessarily be that way. What I like about these triplets is that they sound different from the other types and mixed together this gives a tune much more variety.
No I mean on a 6 string guitar (DADGAD) when you play an A on the 3rd string and the string above (2nd) is also an A. It has to be a controlled down-pull through the two strings so that you end up with a reasonably even triplet.
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Dow, re: turning the pick 90 degrees: Does that mean that the plane of the pick attacks the string 90 degrees to the string, rather than parallel to the string? (a picture would be better than 10,000 words, eh?) So, the edge of the pick slides across the string, rather than strictly the flat surface of the pick? I don't know if this is what you mean or not. I also don't know why I couldn't think to describe it this way before..... Having interpreted it this way, though, I have been trying it the past several weeks and like it quite a bit. However, my "pick" is my index fingernail, which is a curved surface, and therefore glides across the string very smoothly using this approach. I don't know if what I have been doing is what you suggested, but whether it is or not, I like it. Thanks!
"George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
"George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I had a go at this after reading about it on a link http://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html from Grego's thread a couple of pages ago. I'm making slow progress with it. I think I like the feel of it. It stops you from tensing up and you can switch quickly from picking to strumming just by using your wrist differently instead of changing your hand position/pick orientation/grip etc. Once I've been doing it for a while I'd like to see how I get on picking triplets in reels & jigs. Is anyone else trying this or has anyone tried it and not liked it? Advice anyone?
# Posted on September 30th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I've been trying it since I saw Grego's thread and I find it does help my triplet playing, understanding that I was not lightning fast to start with. I have also noticed the fuller sound that this produces on my Mandola. A down side is that I find that my thumb gets tender but no doubt I will soon develop the neccassary callous in that area.
# Posted on September 30th 2004 by len
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Graham Dunne has used it,and also Martin Dermody to good affect on guitar.
That`s if you`re refering to standard be-bop technique that was originally coined be the likes of Wes Montgomery,Benson being a contemporary of that style,leaving the hand loose and not over supported by the forearm,but with Benson he seems to have his little finger rested on the body beneath the strings for support.
He`s very good doe.
You would probably have to hit the strings a bit differently for trad playing,as cool laid back sweeping swingin style Benson has ,has alot to do with the way he approaches and comes off the string,angle etc,and(just a possibility) it may not be effective a positioning for rhythmic triplets,must look into it,I`m sure a few good string players in trad already use a similar kind of thing effectively...
# Posted on September 30th 2004 by P.browne
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Actually,montgomery didnt use a pick to play with,but alot of benson`s technique replicates that type of sound,
I should think more before I write stuff down
# Posted on September 30th 2004 by P.browne
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Interesting, informative link. I read most of the dissertation on picking, read the George Benson section about 3 times. Still cannot get a clear visual image of what the author is describing. The part about the pick being rotated 90 degrees is what throws me, because I don't understand which plane he is describing, x - y, y - z, z - x. ??
Regardless, since you invited suggestions, for what it's worth, here is my latest thinking on picking. It is guided by the overall philosophy of technique that I have been leaning towards over the last 2 - 5 years, which began when I took flamenco lessons for a year when we lived in San Diego. (I will get to the point here in a bit, but invite you to "share the ride" of how I came to my current thinking).
My flamenco teacher emphasized prepared rest strokes with the fingers, (don't worry, I'll get to holding a pick)with the thumb usually anchored on either the low E string or on the body of the guitar for support.
As a side-note, related to the Wes Montgomery style described in the Tuck link at the beginning of this thread, flamenco has a technique known as aza pua. (not sure if I spelled it right) Aza pua is a thumb technique where a thumb rest stroke is followed by a (continued downstroke) thumb brush over the next 2 or 3 adjacent strings, and then a thumb upstroke over the same 2 or 3 strings. This creates a triplet: 1)thumb down rest stroke, 2)thumb down brush on adjacent strings 3) thumb up brush on same strings in step 2. Good flamenco players can do this very fast.
Prior to taking flamenco lessons, I had always followed the teaching of leaving the right hand completely free from the guitar. After being taught the flamenco technique of anchoring the thumb, I began to read other sources that advised not only anchoring the thumb, but sometimes anchoring a finger or 2 on some of the top strings, all to enhance stability and stroke preparedness. I was also reading more about using left hand fingers as anchor and pivot points.
This all came to a head when I had a dream about riding a horse in a rodeo and comparing how well I could ride with no hands compared to riding with both hands hanging on to the reins (did I spell that right - obviously I have no equestrian experience).
Now, my philosophy for both hands is to try to keep at least one digit attached to a string at all times, providing a known reference point. It seems to be helping, making my playing more relaxed and more easily expressive.
So, about holding the pick. As you probably gathered from the above, I play predominantly fingerstyle. I have always liked both the sound and the feel of playing with a pick, but have not done nearly as much. I have experimented over the years with various fingerstyle imitations of playing with a pick, including thumb and index or middle finger alteration, which some players are very good at. Still, these techniques don't seem to have the same sound or feel as playing with a pick. About 2 years ago, I began experimenting with holding my fingers as if I were holding a pick, and using the index fingernail (which protrudes 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch beyond the fingertip) as a pick. This sounds and feels more like playing with a pick. Also, I can alternate very quickly and easily between this technique and fingerstyle, since I don't have to worry about picking up and putting down a pick.
I could say more, but am pressed for time, and also not sure how interesting or relevant what I have said is to anyone else. I hope it is helpful.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Yes, it took me a while to realise what was meant by rotating the pick 90 degrees. That sentence is a bit ambiguous. I think what it means is that, once you've rolled your wrist into the right position, you have to orientate the pick so that it makes contact properly with the strings. This means that instead of having the pointy end of the pick pointing along the same line as the length of your index finger, you have to swivel it so that it sticks out at more or less a right angle. This will help clarify: take a sheet of paper and hold it out in front of you, gripping it tightly between your thumb and index finger. Now relax your grip without letting go of the paper completely. The paper will sort of slump. It's a pick rotation in that plane that is being discussed.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
By the way when you hold the paper up, the sheet has to be perpendicular to the ground otherwise nothing happens when you relax your grip.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
When I used to play more with a pick, I always liked very thin picks, and often played with one of the more rounded edges of the pick, rather than the pointy end of the pick, which seemed to giveme greater control and more flexibility. Maybe just an individual anomaly...
Other advantages of using the index fingernail as a pick: don't have to worry about dropping it, don't have to worry about finding it, don't spend any money on picks. The picking stroke can be mixed with fingertip flesh for a mellower tone if desired.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Re: rotating the pick 90 degrees. Do you mean that the pointy end of the pick would then point down in the Benson technique?
Techniques that can be easily demonstrated are sometimes very difficult to explain. The picture cabn indeed be worth 10,000 words. Or more.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
The pointy end would point down so that it makes proper contact with the strings - that's assuming you want to play with the pointy end. I use triple gauge picks so all my corners are pointy anyway!
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Because if you don't rotate the pick, the pointy end points away over towards the headstock somewhere, which is pretty useless.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I did some more practice today and I think I'm starting to "get it". I'm having to concentrate on keeping my thumb joint locked which is really hard because I've always kept it flexible when picking. It feels weird, but my wrist is so relaxed I'm sure I'll reap the benefit eventually if I keep at it. I'm finding that triplets are okay if you keep your thumb locked and use your wrist a bit.
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Also ,jazzers use a very thick pick,up to 3 mils,and I`ve never heard a real good trad player using anything under the flexibility of an orange
tortex dunlop pick,which is about .78 of a mil.
This definitely effects the tone and type of control you have
# Posted on October 1st 2004 by P.browne
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Any volunteers to photograph the Benson grip and post it somewhere?
# Posted on October 2nd 2004 by grego
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I recall trying to decipher Tuck's method quite a while ago and never being sure I got it right.
This may muddy the waters a bit, but I have recently been trying out an approach taught in The Bickford Mandolin Method (a mando tutor from the 1920's, I believe). I ordered it from djangobooks.com, having learned of it from a discussion thread on gypsy jazz technique on the mandolincafe.com website. According to that discussion, gypsy jazz guitarists and those of several other styles traditionally used essentially the same approach.
The emphasis is on down-picked rest strokes for most melody notes, keeping the pick hold and the wrist both as loose as possible. When adding up-strokes, one exactly reverses the down-stroke (keeping the same pick and stroke angle), with almost all motion coming from wrist rotation. The series of exercises builds through downstrokes through alternating strokes to get you to tremolo in a natural progression.
It seemed counter-intuitive to me, but works much better than I expected, and I'm in the process of working up patterns for picking of jigs (working partly from previous threads on this site discussing down-up-down, down-up-down patterns vs. strict down-up-down-up ones).
Carol Kaye uses a fairly similar approach for electric bass technique (pick rather than finger style) in her method books also.
Anyway, the download of the Bickford book is quite reasonable (I think it was $6.00) and has been well worth the time to experiment with. Jim Clemons
# Posted on October 3rd 2004 by JamesPV
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Sometimes the mental / psychological aspect of technique has an impact on playing music. I had an interesting, amusing at the time, thought regarding technique this weekend. In the middle of a tune that has some challenging technical requirements it suddenly occured to me that I didn't need to struggle to get it. All I needed to do was simply put my fingers where they belonged, kinda like filing things alphabetically - just put everything where it belongs. After laughing, I suddenly seemed more focused, more stable, more relaxed, and enjoyed the music more.
# Posted on October 4th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I came back to the guitar and ITM from a wide journey through all forms of music associated with the guitar apart from Jazz and Country. I had spent some time dabbling in Flamenco, so I was fascinated by Ceciltguitar's posting.
I have found the accompaniment and fingerstyle were my first achievements (still in progress) but the flat-picking of tunes was the hardest for me coming from my background.
I do find the triplets a problem but then so does Donogh Hennessy. He uses the hammer-on pull-off quite a lot to simulate a triplet when flatpicking.
I have tried most of the things mentioned in the above postings and Tony McManus does use the Thumb/Index combination to flatpick when he is going to revert to fingerstyle halfway through a piece.
I would say that turning the strike angle of the pick through 45deg in two planes is quite effective - visualise that!! But when the triplets are firing I do not need to think about that. I only do that if it isn't working. I have experimented with thin and thick pics and can see advantages in both. The thin pick bends more easily through the motion and doesn't get stuck as easily. The thicker pic cuts through the string better because it is stronger, but it can get caught on the string making you miss a beat.
# Posted on October 8th 2004 by Donough
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
I forgot to mention that the other trick for getting triplets that sound different is picking through two strings on the down-pick and the third note from an up-pick. This usually will be when the string above is going to sound the same note but it needn't necessarily be that way. What I like about these triplets is that they sound different from the other types and mixed together this gives a tune much more variety.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Donough
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
You mean if you've got 2 strings to a course like a zouk?
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Triplets
No I mean on a 6 string guitar (DADGAD) when you play an A on the 3rd string and the string above (2nd) is also an A. It has to be a controlled down-pull through the two strings so that you end up with a reasonably even triplet.
# Posted on October 9th 2004 by Donough
Re: "George Benson style" picking for zouk, mandolin, banjo, guitar etc.
Dow, re: turning the pick 90 degrees: Does that mean that the plane of the pick attacks the string 90 degrees to the string, rather than parallel to the string? (a picture would be better than 10,000 words, eh?) So, the edge of the pick slides across the string, rather than strictly the flat surface of the pick? I don't know if this is what you mean or not. I also don't know why I couldn't think to describe it this way before..... Having interpreted it this way, though, I have been trying it the past several weeks and like it quite a bit. However, my "pick" is my index fingernail, which is a curved surface, and therefore glides across the string very smoothly using this approach. I don't know if what I have been doing is what you suggested, but whether it is or not, I like it. Thanks!
# Posted on October 26th 2004 by ceciltguitar