I have read many things about how to learn "irish fiddling" and they say to learn with out sheet music but to lesson and pick out the sounds. But since i have no experience with the fiddle/violin should i go ahead and try learning by lessoning to music. or should i learn some of the notes first
I always think it helps to have an understanding of the instrument first, but I have met many fine musicians who couldn't tell you the difference between an A and a B. They just know what sound the instrument makes if they put their fingers in a certain place.
In the purest form of the music, no written notation would be involved, but I doubt there are many musicians nowadays who have gone their entire playing careers without using some sort of notes, even if it's written on a bar napkin.
If you're just picking up the instrument for the first time, I would almost suggest learning by listening and skipping the written music. Learning to read music and learning to play by ear are two totally different skills that each take an immense amount of practice. If you learn tunes from written music, it is generally that much tougher to play them without music. Therefore, if you are willing to skip music reading and just focus on playing by ear, all the power to ya. Either way, listening is still a very important part of the music.
Hi newbie - I agree with much of what Jason says. However, one day you'll probably wish that you could read music, so why not learn to do it a bit. If you're also new to the instrument, and especially if you're teaching yourself, you would do well to have a look at some of the beginning fiddle or violin books on offer, and work through one or two that appeal to you. At the same time, you should be trying to pick out some tunes by ear. At first the best things to try are just things you know really well in your head - Twinkle Twinkle, Happy Birthday, tunes of pop songs, it really doesn't matter. Move on to jigs and reels when you feel ready.
I think you'll find that this "2 pronged" approach will work pretty well. The tutor books will help build up a little technique and understanding of music and the ear work will prepare you for the real world of ITM.
What probably won't work terribly well is going and buying a book of jigs and reels and painstakingly working them out note by note. At your stage you probably will be better learning them by ear. When you understand jigs and reels better, then learning them from a book works sometimes, as long as you also listen, listen, listen.
Most fiddlers nowdays are music readers to some extent. (Writing a tune on a bar napkin is very much the act of a confident music reader.)
I once taught a beginning accordion class for a trad. music organisation. They told us tutors "You should teach by ear, the traditional way. But you can give out the dots at the end of the night as an aide memoir." They were a bit surprised that I taught my beginners to read dots via a few technichal exercises, and never did give them the dots for the tunes we learned. They didn't need the dots for these as they were all traditional songs that they all knew. Guess what. It worked.
Best of luck!
Hey - 'lesson' for 'listen', are you another 'dyslexic'? Anyway, a clue to the likes of me, who is - take every avenue you can to acquire knowledge, even standing on your head reciting verses. That may sound a bit extreme, but the likes of me learns best by 'doing', that said, all other access and forms of interaction help - listening first - what a treasure trove of possibilities, including just going to a pub session to hear - and to watch, and on that visual note, there are some OK videos and DVDs out there worth repeats so it sinks in, and keeping with the eyes, the black dots and ABCs - they just make this picture of the music outside of its living performance, you see the patterns and that reinforces other things in the process - and 'dance'! Hey, it's dance music, don't worry about your two right feet and looking a fool, getting past that is a great advance in itself. You have to make an ass of yourself repeatedly before you get anything right, so why not learn to laugh it off - and start again... Dance is a great one for that, and to learn anything you must first master yourself, and gain some patience from your worst critic - you. It can stop you every time.
Now this thing on 'notation', and there are going to be some folks that push that old fantasy that a real trad musician is illiterate - what a load of hogswallop in my experience. I've run across so many ways of notating it can make you dizzy, from Solfeggio used in a way similar to ABCs, to strange chicken scratching, to the black dots. I never met an older musician in Eire, and I mean older than me, by miles, a lot that aren't around anymore - who hadn't some form of notation, as a reminder of something they'd heard, or for sharing, or whatever. The only completely illiterate ones were young-uns who wore it as a badge of pride, and consequently were the most vocal in claiming it was 'TRADITIONAL' - ease up already. All this said, it is always your ears that need to rule. For too many, especially back seat classical musicians, they are trapped by the sheet, it rules their lives, it cripples them, as it does some that dabble in playing 'folk music' with stand in hand and sheet music between them and real listening. Getting into the groove with others requires you to be out front with your ears and listening.
So, listen, listen, listen, but don't be thrown by using every other means at your disposal to reach that 'understanding', appreciation and consideration of others...
Jason G says, "listening is still a very important part of the music." Don't ever get to a situation where listening is downgraded to only a "part" of the music. Listening IS music. If you can listen with inteligence and joy (to others and yourself) then you are a musician. All the rest are mere tricks of the trade.ˇ
Judging from own experience, I agree with what Jason said. I learned classical flute before I picked up Celtic. This makes me technically good, but I have serious trouble playing music by ear, An extremely important part of session play.
And there's one very important thing that I've learned over the years and I wish many more would (especially strummers and drummers). That is "To resist the temptation to play or join in"
What Michael says above bears careful consideration. As time goes by (sigh) I become more convinced of the truth of this. Anyone who can really hear and understand music is a musician. Some musicians will never pick up an instrument. Some will only ever play music using their voices. Conversely, some people who play instruments will never become musicians.
Written music is an aid to being a musician, probably an essential aid if the music is very complicated or long, like a mahler symphony or something. Fingering charts are another aid. They are such easy things to use/learn that it would be silly to handicap yourself by not using them - after all, if you can read music, it doesn't mean you have to read it all the time. Once you learn to listen, and once your instrument becomes as much an extension of you as your vocal chords are, in theory, provided you can focus on truly listening, you should be able to play back anything you hear, in the same way that if someone sings a chorus of a song to you, you can instantly join in...
From one fiddler to another, if you are just picking up the instrument, at least find a mentor. There are physical challenges to playing the instrument and you want to try and avoid bad habits. I went through a few corrective phases that were mentally painful! There is a great book by Kato Havas. I believe it is called "The New Approach". She studied gypsy fiddlers and came up with advice on how to hold the instrument and how to approach it.
Otherwise, listen to what the others (or otters) are saying about listening. You need to educate your ears and your mind. Get the music inside you. The best way to do this is by listening. And listening in person, feeling the music, is better than listening to recordings.
As you become addicted, there is no harm in learning to read music and trying to pick a few tunes up that way. Take Mr. Gill's advice here.
p.s. Ceolachan...I can think of two players, both from Ireland, that cannot read a note. Both also have a gazillion tunes and can be considered top-flight on their instruments.
Great stuff from Michael and Mark. The tunes play themselves on the strings and buttons and finger holes of our minds. If the tunes come alive in your head, you're a musician.
"In the purest form of the music, no written notation would be involved..."
Often, one finds that old Irish farmers with a dusty cracked old fiddle and such even know SOME form of notation. Notation is a very useful way of passing along songs, say at a bar or whatnot. People who believe that "real Irish musicans don't need/can't read notation" are entirely untrue. It's mostly an elitest snob notion.
IMO it makes sense, if ITM is going to be your metier, to work your weaker side for a time near the beginning. If you're the sort that likes to read, work hard at developing your ears. If you can pick up tunes by ear without a great deal of difficulty, then slog away at getting better at the dots.
I've always been a reader, in music as in everything else, and while I can learn a tune by ear, it's WAY harder and takes longer, so I often cheat.
That's a pity, because "ear" tunes are forever, and "eyes" tunes are soon forgot, in my experience.
I've known a 'few' young-uns, meaning say 65 and 70 now or younger, who take pride in being musically illiterate, so much so that some lie about it, while like porn mags they had every collection going hidden out of view somewhere, or a secret stash of ABCs in a little notebook.
But there are also those that are notation-phobic, and I've known a few, even where some treat it like an 'STD', sessionally-transmitted-disease, as if it will grow warts on their playing... As long as it is just an adjunct and not a necessity or an addiction, it's nothing to fear, as long as your first point of contact, and last, are your ears, and those muscles dancing the tune with fingers and bow...
There's that dance again. If you get out on the floor and get those rhythms into every muscle, without thinking too much about it, you'll also be able to work that lift across to the smaller muscles and muscle groups necessary to dance it on your instrument and electrify the floor for the dancers or anyone else 'listening' and 'feeling' the music and the beat of its heart... It is 'dance' music on the whole...
Of those older musicians I was fortunate to know and befriend, and who are no longer blessing us with their presence, I can't think of one who didn't also dance... At least those I hold in the greatest esteem...a long list of luminaries...missed...
Just to touch on a few things. Michael called me on my semantic (I think that's the right word) error. No real arguments that listening IS the music, and not just a part. Dang you people are picky .
In response to Dave's comments, I think the correct answer probably lies somewhere between our two responses. Perhaps my initial comment about pure music involving absolutely no written notation was extreme, but I think there is some merit to it. I'm not just making this stuff up. I don't think that notion has anything to do with elite or snobby views (I understand this wasn't directed towards me, so I'm not taking any offense or anything). I know there are real Irish musicians who can read music, but there are also some who can't. You said it yourself... "Often, one finds". Nothing ever seems to be one extreme when it comes to music. I think there are usually going to be exceptions to most claims.
i agree with michael gill. if you cant hear it in your head, you cant play it in your instrument. people who are out of tune cant hear being in or out of tune in their heads. once you hear it in your head, you go, "damn, i'm out of tune! how do i fix it. and you are disgusted until you get it right". it is like that with everything. if you dont know how to run in your head, you cant run in real life. if you dont know how to finger a tune in your head, you cant finger a tune in real life (i.e. you know the sound, but not the fingerings). we forget this. if you just try and play a song in your head, you'll see how little you know some tunes in your head. same with hearing them in your head. if you can play a tune in real life, you can play it in your head. the first step in achieving something in real life is accepting that you want to and how to achieve it in your head.
that in mind, it is a crutch, i believe, to not be able to both learn by ear and read music. learning "dots" is important for preserving tunes and passing music to outsiders or people who are isolated from ITM. i read somewhere most of the old harp tunes were lost (correct me on this if i'm wrong) because they were never written down and people stopped playing them. but, that in mind, "dots" are not music. music is music. "dots" are there so we dont forget the music. listening is for knowing how to play and learning music. i believe if you can read a tune and play it as if you had heard it, you will have a more intimate understanding of music. i also think a lot of classical players that cant play by ear at all are definately missing out on something. they are bound to books and music. the opposite is true. what if something happened to all the printing presses and musical libraries of the world? they would be lost, and we would just keep on diddling.
Dear Newbie, haven't read all the previous advice because it got a little long winded. I see you live in Kansas-don't know what the availability of sessions is there or I'd say go and listen. But I will say listen-to recordings, tapes, LIVE if possible. The tradition is an oral one and unless you understand the nuances, notation will be lost on you. It is good for later when you want to fine tune a tune but many people can read music but are lost when it comes to playing live. Get a feel for the music (it DOESN'T all sound the same), the patterns, get lessons on how to hold the fiddle, the bow, the fingering, the levels. Go to a fiddle camp. Look on the net for Fiddle Resources. The fingering is the easy part-that and the bowing make the tune. Break the tunes down and start slowly, repeat, repeat, speed up. All the best.
& slow down... As 'devilselbow' puts it, though in other words, you need to learn to walk and have some idea of geography before you can make any sense or use of maps...
When I first started a couple of years ago, I found it helpful to read sheet music. But I would force myself to turn away from it once I played through it a few times. Sheet music helped me know where to start, and also to get the layout of the tune in my head. Then I would force myself to turn away from it after each measure and give it a try on my own. After awhile, you may not need the music anymore and it will be easier to pick up tunes just by listening to people.
another begining question
another begining question
I have read many things about how to learn "irish fiddling" and they say to learn with out sheet music but to lesson and pick out the sounds. But since i have no experience with the fiddle/violin should i go ahead and try learning by lessoning to music. or should i learn some of the notes first
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by newbie
Re: another begining question
I always think it helps to have an understanding of the instrument first, but I have met many fine musicians who couldn't tell you the difference between an A and a B. They just know what sound the instrument makes if they put their fingers in a certain place.
In the purest form of the music, no written notation would be involved, but I doubt there are many musicians nowadays who have gone their entire playing careers without using some sort of notes, even if it's written on a bar napkin.
If you're just picking up the instrument for the first time, I would almost suggest learning by listening and skipping the written music. Learning to read music and learning to play by ear are two totally different skills that each take an immense amount of practice. If you learn tunes from written music, it is generally that much tougher to play them without music. Therefore, if you are willing to skip music reading and just focus on playing by ear, all the power to ya. Either way, listening is still a very important part of the music.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Jason G
Re: another begining question
Hi newbie - I agree with much of what Jason says. However, one day you'll probably wish that you could read music, so why not learn to do it a bit. If you're also new to the instrument, and especially if you're teaching yourself, you would do well to have a look at some of the beginning fiddle or violin books on offer, and work through one or two that appeal to you. At the same time, you should be trying to pick out some tunes by ear. At first the best things to try are just things you know really well in your head - Twinkle Twinkle, Happy Birthday, tunes of pop songs, it really doesn't matter. Move on to jigs and reels when you feel ready.
I think you'll find that this "2 pronged" approach will work pretty well. The tutor books will help build up a little technique and understanding of music and the ear work will prepare you for the real world of ITM.
What probably won't work terribly well is going and buying a book of jigs and reels and painstakingly working them out note by note. At your stage you probably will be better learning them by ear. When you understand jigs and reels better, then learning them from a book works sometimes, as long as you also listen, listen, listen.
Most fiddlers nowdays are music readers to some extent. (Writing a tune on a bar napkin is very much the act of a confident music reader.)
I once taught a beginning accordion class for a trad. music organisation. They told us tutors "You should teach by ear, the traditional way. But you can give out the dots at the end of the night as an aide memoir." They were a bit surprised that I taught my beginners to read dots via a few technichal exercises, and never did give them the dots for the tunes we learned. They didn't need the dots for these as they were all traditional songs that they all knew. Guess what. It worked.
Best of luck!
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by kris
Listen, listen, listen - and then listen again...
Hey - 'lesson' for 'listen', are you another 'dyslexic'? Anyway, a clue to the likes of me, who is - take every avenue you can to acquire knowledge, even standing on your head reciting verses. That may sound a bit extreme, but the likes of me learns best by 'doing', that said, all other access and forms of interaction help - listening first - what a treasure trove of possibilities, including just going to a pub session to hear - and to watch, and on that visual note, there are some OK videos and DVDs out there worth repeats so it sinks in, and keeping with the eyes, the black dots and ABCs - they just make this picture of the music outside of its living performance, you see the patterns and that reinforces other things in the process - and 'dance'! Hey, it's dance music, don't worry about your two right feet and looking a fool, getting past that is a great advance in itself. You have to make an ass of yourself repeatedly before you get anything right, so why not learn to laugh it off - and start again... Dance is a great one for that, and to learn anything you must first master yourself, and gain some patience from your worst critic - you. It can stop you every time.
Now this thing on 'notation', and there are going to be some folks that push that old fantasy that a real trad musician is illiterate - what a load of hogswallop in my experience. I've run across so many ways of notating it can make you dizzy, from Solfeggio used in a way similar to ABCs, to strange chicken scratching, to the black dots. I never met an older musician in Eire, and I mean older than me, by miles, a lot that aren't around anymore - who hadn't some form of notation, as a reminder of something they'd heard, or for sharing, or whatever. The only completely illiterate ones were young-uns who wore it as a badge of pride, and consequently were the most vocal in claiming it was 'TRADITIONAL' - ease up already. All this said, it is always your ears that need to rule. For too many, especially back seat classical musicians, they are trapped by the sheet, it rules their lives, it cripples them, as it does some that dabble in playing 'folk music' with stand in hand and sheet music between them and real listening. Getting into the groove with others requires you to be out front with your ears and listening.
So, listen, listen, listen, but don't be thrown by using every other means at your disposal to reach that 'understanding', appreciation and consideration of others...
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by ceolachan
Take every angle of approach possible, especially if you are as I am - 'dyslexic'...
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: another begining question
Jason G says, "listening is still a very important part of the music." Don't ever get to a situation where listening is downgraded to only a "part" of the music. Listening IS music. If you can listen with inteligence and joy (to others and yourself) then you are a musician. All the rest are mere tricks of the trade.ˇ
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by ...
Re: another begining question
Judging from own experience, I agree with what Jason said. I learned classical flute before I picked up Celtic. This makes me technically good, but I have serious trouble playing music by ear, An extremely important part of session play.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Sam2
Re: another begining question
And there's one very important thing that I've learned over the years and I wish many more would (especially strummers and drummers). That is "To resist the temptation to play or join in"
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: another begining question
What Michael says above bears careful consideration. As time goes by (sigh) I become more convinced of the truth of this. Anyone who can really hear and understand music is a musician. Some musicians will never pick up an instrument. Some will only ever play music using their voices. Conversely, some people who play instruments will never become musicians.
Written music is an aid to being a musician, probably an essential aid if the music is very complicated or long, like a mahler symphony or something. Fingering charts are another aid. They are such easy things to use/learn that it would be silly to handicap yourself by not using them - after all, if you can read music, it doesn't mean you have to read it all the time. Once you learn to listen, and once your instrument becomes as much an extension of you as your vocal chords are, in theory, provided you can focus on truly listening, you should be able to play back anything you hear, in the same way that if someone sings a chorus of a song to you, you can instantly join in...
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Ottery
Re: another begining question
I'd just like to second what Michal and Mark Otter say. It's really sound advice.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: another begining question
From one fiddler to another, if you are just picking up the instrument, at least find a mentor. There are physical challenges to playing the instrument and you want to try and avoid bad habits. I went through a few corrective phases that were mentally painful! There is a great book by Kato Havas. I believe it is called "The New Approach". She studied gypsy fiddlers and came up with advice on how to hold the instrument and how to approach it.
Otherwise, listen to what the others (or otters) are saying about listening. You need to educate your ears and your mind. Get the music inside you. The best way to do this is by listening. And listening in person, feeling the music, is better than listening to recordings.
As you become addicted, there is no harm in learning to read music and trying to pick a few tunes up that way. Take Mr. Gill's advice here.
p.s. Ceolachan...I can think of two players, both from Ireland, that cannot read a note. Both also have a gazillion tunes and can be considered top-flight on their instruments.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Jode
Re: another begining question
Great stuff from Michael and Mark. The tunes play themselves on the strings and buttons and finger holes of our minds. If the tunes come alive in your head, you're a musician.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: another begining question
OK. I have issue with this line:
"In the purest form of the music, no written notation would be involved..."
Often, one finds that old Irish farmers with a dusty cracked old fiddle and such even know SOME form of notation. Notation is a very useful way of passing along songs, say at a bar or whatnot. People who believe that "real Irish musicans don't need/can't read notation" are entirely untrue. It's mostly an elitest snob notion.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by sifudave54
Re: another begining question
IMO it makes sense, if ITM is going to be your metier, to work your weaker side for a time near the beginning. If you're the sort that likes to read, work hard at developing your ears. If you can pick up tunes by ear without a great deal of difficulty, then slog away at getting better at the dots.
I've always been a reader, in music as in everything else, and while I can learn a tune by ear, it's WAY harder and takes longer, so I often cheat.
That's a pity, because "ear" tunes are forever, and "eyes" tunes are soon forgot, in my experience.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by s1m0n
Re: another begining question
I've known a 'few' young-uns, meaning say 65 and 70 now or younger, who take pride in being musically illiterate, so much so that some lie about it, while like porn mags they had every collection going hidden out of view somewhere, or a secret stash of ABCs in a little notebook.
But there are also those that are notation-phobic, and I've known a few, even where some treat it like an 'STD', sessionally-transmitted-disease, as if it will grow warts on their playing... As long as it is just an adjunct and not a necessity or an addiction, it's nothing to fear, as long as your first point of contact, and last, are your ears, and those muscles dancing the tune with fingers and bow...
There's that dance again. If you get out on the floor and get those rhythms into every muscle, without thinking too much about it, you'll also be able to work that lift across to the smaller muscles and muscle groups necessary to dance it on your instrument and electrify the floor for the dancers or anyone else 'listening' and 'feeling' the music and the beat of its heart... It is 'dance' music on the whole...
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by ceolachan
Of those older musicians I was fortunate to know and befriend, and who are no longer blessing us with their presence, I can't think of one who didn't also dance... At least those I hold in the greatest esteem...a long list of luminaries...missed...
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: another begining question
Just to touch on a few things. Michael called me on my semantic (I think that's the right word) error. No real arguments that listening IS the music, and not just a part. Dang you people are picky
.
In response to Dave's comments, I think the correct answer probably lies somewhere between our two responses. Perhaps my initial comment about pure music involving absolutely no written notation was extreme, but I think there is some merit to it. I'm not just making this stuff up. I don't think that notion has anything to do with elite or snobby views (I understand this wasn't directed towards me, so I'm not taking any offense or anything). I know there are real Irish musicians who can read music, but there are also some who can't. You said it yourself... "Often, one finds". Nothing ever seems to be one extreme when it comes to music. I think there are usually going to be exceptions to most claims.
# Posted on September 24th 2004 by Jason G
Re: another begining question
i agree with michael gill. if you cant hear it in your head, you cant play it in your instrument. people who are out of tune cant hear being in or out of tune in their heads. once you hear it in your head, you go, "damn, i'm out of tune! how do i fix it. and you are disgusted until you get it right". it is like that with everything. if you dont know how to run in your head, you cant run in real life. if you dont know how to finger a tune in your head, you cant finger a tune in real life (i.e. you know the sound, but not the fingerings). we forget this. if you just try and play a song in your head, you'll see how little you know some tunes in your head. same with hearing them in your head. if you can play a tune in real life, you can play it in your head. the first step in achieving something in real life is accepting that you want to and how to achieve it in your head.
that in mind, it is a crutch, i believe, to not be able to both learn by ear and read music. learning "dots" is important for preserving tunes and passing music to outsiders or people who are isolated from ITM. i read somewhere most of the old harp tunes were lost (correct me on this if i'm wrong) because they were never written down and people stopped playing them. but, that in mind, "dots" are not music. music is music. "dots" are there so we dont forget the music. listening is for knowing how to play and learning music. i believe if you can read a tune and play it as if you had heard it, you will have a more intimate understanding of music. i also think a lot of classical players that cant play by ear at all are definately missing out on something. they are bound to books and music. the opposite is true. what if something happened to all the printing presses and musical libraries of the world? they would be lost, and we would just keep on diddling.
# Posted on September 25th 2004 by daiv
Re: another begining question
Dear Newbie, haven't read all the previous advice because it got a little long winded. I see you live in Kansas-don't know what the availability of sessions is there or I'd say go and listen. But I will say listen-to recordings, tapes, LIVE if possible. The tradition is an oral one and unless you understand the nuances, notation will be lost on you. It is good for later when you want to fine tune a tune but many people can read music but are lost when it comes to playing live. Get a feel for the music (it DOESN'T all sound the same), the patterns, get lessons on how to hold the fiddle, the bow, the fingering, the levels. Go to a fiddle camp. Look on the net for Fiddle Resources. The fingering is the easy part-that and the bowing make the tune. Break the tunes down and start slowly, repeat, repeat, speed up. All the best.
# Posted on September 25th 2004 by devilselbow
Re: another begining question
& slow down... As 'devilselbow' puts it, though in other words, you need to learn to walk and have some idea of geography before you can make any sense or use of maps...
# Posted on September 25th 2004 by ceolachan
Re: another begining question
When I first started a couple of years ago, I found it helpful to read sheet music. But I would force myself to turn away from it once I played through it a few times. Sheet music helped me know where to start, and also to get the layout of the tune in my head. Then I would force myself to turn away from it after each measure and give it a try on my own. After awhile, you may not need the music anymore and it will be easier to pick up tunes just by listening to people.
# Posted on October 14th 2004 by jigsnreels