In Ireland, most pubs are smallish and the sessions can only get so big. Due to size constraints, and perhaps noise, players that want to hear each other sit close together. Personal space issues are sacrificed for the greater good. More and more I feel the need to emulate this environment, even if forced into large spaces.
Pubs in the States are huge, and often publicans will suggest a large space for a session location. People like their space, they want a seat at the table, the session spreads out, losing focus. More people come in, and the publican adds tables instead of taking them away.
In Milwaukee this year at the festival, there were two sessions in huge rooms. People walked right up and plonked down. The third or fourth guitarist sat down right behind one of the session leaders and drove him right out of the session. It was a struggle to keep anything going. The basher guitarist then went to the other room, joining three or four other guitarists to sink that session. Even without over-accompaniment, the sheer size of the session seems to decrease the quality. People can't hear each other, etc.
How do other people handle sessions in large spaces? Pub sponsorship of sessions is limited and we can only throw so many house parties!
As a general rule, big sessions work best if there is an abundance of strong players and polite punters; otherwise give up.
If a session gets too big, it runs the risk of breaking up into smaller sessions where one group can't hear what the other is doing. Our session in the Porterhouse is nice in that although the pub is big, we play in a partitioned area where there is only so much room.
In a large session, the crack is the big thing, and the music will suffer -- you just have to accept that and be okay with it. To enjoy a big session, I have to put myself in the mindset of it all just being a big loud party, not making particularly good music -- just fun music! Nothing wrong with that, so long as you can enjoy that situation.
If you can't enjoy that sort of session, then don't go, because you'll only be putting yourself into a bad mood. It's not fair to the people who *can* enjoy that.
Spot on,Zina. Big sessions are all about socializing. Musically, they aren't the most satisfying, but they can still be fun.
Five or six years ago, I walked into a pre-festival session in a huge room. The players were in a circle about 20 feet in diameter, with 40-50 musicians thrashing away on what could've been mistaken for a set of reels...or a New York City traffic jam in the Holland Tunnel. I turned right around, scurried down the hall, and found a cozy little session of five players out of earshot of the larger conflagration.
Whenever a session gets too big, I've always found a few players eager to splinter off for some tunes in another room. And I've also enjoyed great 'brawls' of a session with a crowd of friends.
Yeah, I get the crack part, and usually enjoy myself as I am a newish parent. I will have to keep the advice for the next festival and try to start up sessions in small spaces only! But for the pub session here, I will continue to fight on to make it better, and have good crack as well.
For one, I put the kids to bed and go late. That seems to work well for me, as many people go home early, so the last shift is smaller.
Secondly, I try to sit with and gather round some of the better players so as to have a focus...at least we can hear each other.
I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)
That's a part of what I am saying. The rooms are big and accomodating and so one is not limited by physical space, only by inhibitions, morals, ettiquette, embarassment, shame...
Well we are talking about human beings here after all; you can't expect inhibitions, morals, etiquette, embarrassment, or shame to take precedence over the power of anyone’s ego.
OK, I agree that one cannot control the size of the session, but how about the way that it is formed? Sometimes I get the motivation to push tables out of the way or insist that people move closer together, or ask someone to move so that I can squeeze in. However, after putting the kids to bed, who has the energy?
It seems, at least around here, that people would rather spread out than be able to hear each other.
The problem is that most people who play ITM go to sessions to play and would rarely consider just listening. I struggle with this concept myself, and I have gone to sessions and found there were enough musicians already there and that anymore wouldn’t be necessary. I would sit and have a pint and watch other musicians come in after me and pile on to the session. I would watch as all the seating possibilities that I had spied on arrival being taken by the newcomers. Then I wonder why I didn't just join in right when I got there anyway. Can you imagine a session where more musicians than needed show up but everyone takes turns around the table? Maybe when we die and go to the big session in the sky, but unfortunately -- it seems that everyone wants to play as much as they can regardless of what's good or bad for a given session.
Excellent points Jack. I can remember one time I sat down and the only place was outside the session circle by a margin. I remember feeling shunned as I consider myself to be one of the leaders. So I started out a tune set and then said to myself "why the hill did I do that?" I think I may have packed up after that.
That's part of the problem of the expando session, when you get someone way outside starting a set of tunes, and then the dominoe effect goes into play. Waves of Tory I call it.
I think it could be interesting, or at least entertaining if a psychologist was to do a comprehensive study of human behavior at ITM sessions. Is there a doctor in the house?
Someone told me recently in an email... or maybe somewhere on this list, that they have a session where they maintained the circle size and limited its sideways expansion. The people that were forming the second tier week after week eventually broke away and started a new session elsewhere that they called, "The Outer Circle". The person telling me this wondered if the title of the splinter group's session was intended as a snipe on the original session, but to me – it sounded like a very workable solution.
Jode, please keep in mind, the sessions at Irishfest are not indicative of the sessions here. They try to accomodate as many as possible to join in as part of the fest. The regular sessions at the pubs are smaller. The regulars from the pubs may have been put off and hence left. I didn't go the sessions tents, too many concerts, so little time. I understand that the sessions after hours were great.
Don't psychoanalyze ITM players. It would be fascinating, but you'd be kicking over some really nasty rocks.
Most larger sessions in pubs that I've been to are usually set up as a small circle in a corner of the room. That way, it can only grow in one or two dimensions. However, I've been to sessions at places like Augusta (a week-long camp) where it was sort of like a gravity well that attracted lumps of space debris, coagulating into a pulsing, chaotic fount of noise. When the 'guitar player' from Pittsburgh (carrying a dreadnaught-sized guitar strung with four huge strings a la an octave mandolin) showed up to pummel us senseless with his auditory musculature, I packed up and wandered off in search of greener and smaller pastures. I found a nice little session out back, and had great fun away from the maddening crowds.
Moral of story? Avoid large sessions, or sit back with a pint and watch the pageant.
Sessions change throughout evening, too. If things are too dodgy for one's taste, you can simply wait for the "late shift" to wander in, and then take your rightful place. I've noticed that our sessions start with the beginners and the students, and after they've played their pieces, they get and leave or otherwise wander off. By the time the rosier hours arrive, there's a right fine little ensemble settling in for a night's work.
Debwa - I was talking about the two sessions on the second floor of the Park East on Sunday night...we had a session earlier in the week at Paddy's, which has nice small areas that would naturally limit session size.
The student union earlier in the week had just the problem we are discussing. Pre-exercising advice from above, I did not play at the union this year, however, had slogged my way through a few tunes last year.
I like the way you think Stevie... very communal, it can be a problem though if time is limited. But if beginners showed up early and left the regular or later hours for more experienced players -- how long before everyone starts showing up at the later hours to be considered part of the advanced crowd?
Jack and Stevie: Yes. I currently do show up late, but Jack is probably correct that this will not last. In fact, that was the real demise of another session in town, one that had lasted for years.
The "slow" session was set up at an earlier time and used a different room in the pub (a restaurant type of place with many big rooms). As time passed the slow session and the regular session overlapped, timing wise. Then some of the slow attenders would sit in at the regular session for awhile. Then, the slow session moved into the same room as the regular session and eventually most people wanted to stay (with their music stands and tune books).
Even our local guitar hero who will play with anyone, encourage anyone and always goes out to a session. Even he could no longer go and it eventually died.
So, part of my motivation for starting this discussion was to find ways to save this session, which I helped to start in the first place.
Part of me wants to cut and run, and start a new one somewhere else, but the other part says "no, this session will not be ruined!" Besides, if I start something new, people will call me elitist...
The way I've dealt with the problem locally was to give up being the only session host at our local. Now, with various hosts, the pressure on the session has lightened up. People tend to attend the session with hosts that have a similar take on the tunes, tempo, level of playing etc. Having a variety of session styles is more acceptable now because different host have different preferences. It doesn’t mean that some people won’t still consider you “elitist” for having your own preference that might discourage big crowds and beginners, but at least you can go out for a tune and enjoy yourself on your night. And there's nothing wrong with having sessions elswhere on the other nights. It's all good.
Well, we don't really have set hosts, but I will take your point to go out and have fun on the nights I do get out.
I'm honestly not concerned about the elitist tag. I guess I will have to just get used to pushing tables out of the way and trying to make smaller circles.
Thanks for the therapy...now for Doctor Guinness? Have a great weekend!
Very good point Jack!
Shortly after I arrived in Tassie I managed to get along to the Irish Murphy's session in Hobart.
"Oh great!" was the welcome, at which one of the group went to the bar to claim the free pint tickets.
One flute was then accompanied by a plinkety plink mandolin (no melodies) bones, spoons and bodhran and weak guitarist...this has happened a number of times since then, the greatest outweighing being
2 guitars (non listening)
3 mandolins (percussive!)
3 bodhrans
1 spoons
1 bouzouki (percussive)
It's a bit of a downer when you travel 50 miles each way for a tune.
So your comment Jack is quite appropriate...if only some listening happened.
That's how I've always taught - you can't play in a session if you don't listen!
Brianx
Getting just a tad self-righteous, aren't we Jack?
Jack wrote:
"I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)"
Wow. I'm not sure how to take that. Not only have I sat listening through many sessions without ever cracking the case open, I've seen lots of other players do that too. If I didn't know that Jack was such a decent hyooman bean, I'd think he was casting dark and dire and totally unfounded aspersions wider and heavier than Dougie Baker's muck raker....
I went to a session once that was just a fiddle, a banjo, and a flute. The tunes were so light and fine, I just wanted to listen. Then another fiddler showed up, and the energy level jumped up a bit, but it was still so crisp and clean, like bleached bedsheets snapping in the breeze on an Iowa clothesline. I didn't need to join in to enjoy it, and three years later I can still hear their versions of the tunes in my head...McKenna's with a B part different than any other way I've heard it, the Crib of Perches, a whole set of Sean Ryan jigs. At one point I leaned over to ask the name of a particular tune, and they invited me to join in, but it was far better to just buy them a round and listen some more.
I've also sat out of my own local session, the one I ostensibly run, as well as many other sessions (especially when there are already lots of other players). I've walked out of sessions that grew too big and invited a few folks to join me elsewhere for tunes we could hear. Just last month I sat out of a splended little session at the Montana Irish Festival in Butte, despite being invited to join in. I didn't want to be distracted by my own playing when I could listen to the likes of the players around me. I'd just played in a pub with them for 4 hours--then came a chance to just listen., which is indeed a great pleasure. I'm sure many other people here feel the same way.
There...I've said my piece. The pulpit is yours again Jack.
That's basically it Michael. And I guess Will was somehow taking my question and hand-raising scenario a bit too personal. I wasn’t insinuating that Will, or anyone else, isn’t capable of listening when going to sessions -- I was simply attempting to illustrate a point that Michael accomplished in one sentence.
I wonder what the optimum size for a session is. It obviously depends, amongst other things, on the quality of the players. I'd suggest for most sessions the optimum is between 6 and 10, with 12-15 as a practical maximum. Most sessions I go to do have a natural maximum of a dozen or so, which is dictated by the space available.
Too much space with a smallish group may not be good if the acoustics are bad. One session in Bristol was in a large club room with a vast expanse of carpet and a low, acoustically tiled ceiling (because there's a dance hall immediately above). Acoustically, it was a disaster; we couldn't hear each other unless we sat in very tight, the sound was dead, and nobody a few yards away could hear us. The only thing going for it was a wood floored dancing area that could take two sets of set dancers. The session at that venue is now defunct and has moved to a pub venue which is more appropriate, but unfortunately there's no area that can be set aside for set dancing.
Trevor
Further thoughts. The ideal session size (or the practical maximum anyway) is perhaps dictated by the necessity for all the players to hear each other and to have eye contact.
In classical chamber music, which I think is a useful pointer in this instance, a group of up to about 9 players can play together by maintaining eye contact and listening.
I can't think offhand of any chamber music composition for more than 9 individuals (most are for 3-6 players). Start going above 9 and you're going to need, if not a conductor, then a playing director, and then you have a small orchestra and not a chamber ensemble. A session is a chamber music ensemble, and I think the same practical rules apply.
Trevor
Sorry, but I think this is all a bit precious. ' I'd suggest for most sessions the optimum is between 6 and 10, with 12-15 as a practical maximum' - Well fine, but I've been to great sessions that were bigger than that. The old Jude The Obscure Sunday afternoon sessions in Oxford would have up to about 25 musicians and were ab fab(!) - but everyone pulled together and there were sufficient strong players to keep it all in line. It sounded brilliant, even if more people turned up, because there was a commonality of purpose, and because the size of the session negated any prima donna-ish elements. It was was more like being in an orchestra than a 'chamber music ensemble'!
But then the acoustics were pretty good in there - we could all hear where we were going.
I'd rather play with just 2 or 3 other people though...
Jack, you point blank said that no one here has a sense of discretion. That no one here (except yourself and Zina) would consider just listening, instead of getting the instrument out and bashing along.
Maybe you were just being hypothetical, but it didn't read that way to me, and I think it's a gross overstatement. In fact, looking back over the years here, I can think of a fair amount of discussion at this site from people who frequently refrain from joining in at sessions out of discretion and respect for the music and players.
No big deal. I simply used myself as the exception to your rule.
Will, it was trying to use a fun visual imaginary scenario to illustrate a point. For one; I didn't raise my imaginary hand, and in fact talked about how I struggle with this very issue. So I didn't imply that I was holier than thou, and I only used Zina's name because it seemed like a fun idea at the moment. You're taking the whole thing too personal... and to literal. Try just getting the gist instead.
Not personal at all, just not seeing the humor in how you wrote it. Was blind, but now I...well, I still don't see it, but I'll take your word for it.
Besides, just cuz a room fills up with 30 overeager sessioneers doesn't mean there aren't 100 more sitting on their hands at the bar or at home, prefering that to participating in the musical brawl. I still think most people have a sense of discretion. It's just that there are still enough me-first types to overwhelm the average session. That's the gist as I see it.
(BTW, Jack, why do I have the feeling that we'd communicate--and get along--much better face to face than we seem to online here? I hope that's not just wishful thinking on my part, and that we'll get a chance to find out some day, over pints and tunes.)
Lol, and I'm rather enjoying the row between Michael and Eoino--kinda like a bodhran player and a fiddler taking the last two seats at an already 'full' session and running the whole thing into the ground because they each think the other one's got lousy rhythm....
I think there is no fixed 'optimum' number of participants at a session. So much depends on the room, acoustics, the caliber and sobriety of the players themselves, the mood, the ratio of shared expectations to divergent expectations, the roster of instruments, and who didn't shower that day. Personally, I prefer smaller, intimate circles, but I've seen larger crowds pull it off. And sometimes a big session turns into a dialogue between two distinct clumps of players with different tunes, and the music goes back and forth, and you hear lots of 'new' tunes, and every so often you all pounce on the same tune at once. That can be great fun, especially if it doesn't turn competitive.
I think Jack's lying. If he turned up to a session there'd be no way he'd just sit there and not get his monkey box out. How could he with an audience there expecting a public performance to begin any minute?
And by the way right, Jack said: "I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)"
Damn right I wouldn't consider it. My annoying young upstart hugely inflated ego would not allow me to just sit there and not play. The more backers the better anyway. If there was only one guitarist playing they'd more than likely need help to drown out the melody players. I'd make sure to play extensions on the guitarist's chords so that the harmonies are inappropriately full and jazzy-sounding, like if the other guy's playing an E minor, I'd be playing a B minor 7th so you'd get a nice E minor 11th. I wish I could play diminished chords effectively on Basil - you could get some really nice ugly sounding harmonies going that would clash so much it would make the whole room throb. Hahahaha. And I'd make sure to play slightly behind the beat to drag the rhythm gradually more and more so that the melody players are forced to slow down until by the end of a set of reels it's like a funeral dirge and there's nothing they can do about it. Hahahaha. Or I'd thrash out really fast rhythms with inappropriate syncopation that doesn't go with the tune so that the tune players can't keep up. Backing's great fun!
Will, I think we would get on fine face-to-face. On this board I sometimes feel like you and I are those 2 blind East Indian men standing on different sides of an elephant and trying to describe what it is by touch. We're both talking about the same thing, but we have completely different discriptions.
Michael said: " diddly music, at its best, is ensemble music." Very much a matter of personal taste. Ensemble trad music is fun and exciting, but some of the finest I've heard has been solo (some of Kevin Burke's solo fiddling, for example.)
Jack said "... there were enough musicians already there and that anymore wouldn’t be necessary." Again, entirely a matter of personal taste, and if it bothers you that one more fiddle went and joined a group that you though was just right, aren't you really upset that one or more people didn't agree with your personal taste? It would bug me if someone joined Kevin Burke on one of those wonderful solos with a flute, but Michael would probably enjoy it more.
(Leaving aside "obvious" msifits like clashing guitar chords or bodhran rythyms.)
A "Big session" can be a wonderful, joyous occasion, if everything gels. There's something there for everyone but some of the "hard bitten" veterans might have to play the odd "daggy" or warhorse tune from time to time as the "common denominator" is reduced somewhat. Still, you can get some great tunes too and there's no compulsion for everybody to be playing at the same time.
I find what spoils a "Big session" is not the number of players but the increase of drunken and noisy punters which they can attract.
Yes, smaller set ups can produce more "serious music" but may also be cliquish. Not in all cases, before you protest, and I do realise that it's up to you to "fit in with the session" should you decide to join and not the other way around.
Actually, I think we were talking about the conditions that make sessions swell like Bush's ever-increasing deficit. My take on it was to try and get ourselves, as individuals, to examine our own role in a session’s expansion. Like I said, I for one have struggled with my own behavior regarding whether or not to join a session I visit.
My first trip to Ennis in the middle of February in 1996 comes to mind; I just arrived in town on a Sunday and I went into Cruises and was delighted to find Tommy Peoples and Kevin Crawford having a session in the afternoon. There was plenty of room around the table, so, after a few minutes, without any further thought, I pulled up a chair and sat down. I was assembling my flute and happened to glance up at Kevin who said to me, “You’re all right.” And he nodded in a friendly way. I was puzzled by the comment, but what he meant by it took a while before I began to get a clue. It was only after being in Ennis for a while that I realized sitting right down like I did was considered presumptuous, unlike how it would have been perceived by my peers back in SF. I was in Ennis for a couple of more weeks and noticed that a lot of musicians, who’s sessions I had played at around town, were also in Cruises on Sunday afternoons – without their instruments. Then I started to notice musicians sans instruments attending other people’s sessions around town too. This of course was major food for thought.
So Kevin and Tommy hang out at that end of the elephant too?
:oD
I find what's tricky is loitering within earshot of a session without coming across as yet another punter wannabe-musician on the verge of interrupting them with some inane questions about those songs they're playing or the vacuum cleaner the one guy is losing the wrestling match against....
Actually Will, If you were to ask the other musicians sitting around Cruises on Sundays when Tommy and Kevin were playing why they didn't bring their instruments and join in -- they'd probably say they just wanted to relax and enjoy some good music. I'm only speculating that when they do that at other session's around town -- they're doing it so that the sessions aren't huge and overcrowded. When I’m there in November the Trad Fest will be on with musicians like myself visiting the sessions -- I’m sure whatever etiquette I observed in February will not be in practice necessarily. But since I’ll be around for a couple of weeks after that it will be interesting to see what it’s like when things return to normal.
i have only been to a couple sessions, and i have not played at any of them. because its not my place yet to play, i am not good enough. there are some tunes they played that i knew, but i'm not gonna ruin their fun to try and stretch my ego. a friend of mine was working at the renaissaince fair and she asked me to play with her, and that was fine. i didnt do to well cuz it was a weird wooden whistle that i wasnt used to, cuz it wasnt mine, but she didnt mind, cuz she asked me to play with her band (just at a random corner of the ren fair). and thats how it should be. wait till you're invited to play, and just watch and learn.
my uncle and a friend of ours and i spent a couple hours discussing session etiquette and behavior, and we even started relating it to how people act in general, and even more interestingly, to the irish music scene. we found some things that we hadnt thought of before. i think it would be a very interesting study.
Does the session depend on numbers or on talent?
If there are already 3 of your instrument there, what matters is - are they better than you. If not, they possibly have something to learn (providing they learn), and you possibly have a moral duty to impart a nugget or two of info (especially if you are a stranger - with less to lose).
If they are better than you, there is no shame in keeping the box shut.
Back to Jack's converation about Cruises. I had a similar experience. Some hot players were sitting around a table. I sat nearby with my fiddle case in hand debating whether I was good enough to sit in. At last I was invited. I actually said to the box player "I might have sat down earlier, but I did not know whether it was a gig or a session."
He sneared at me and said, "it's a gig."
What he meant was that it was a paid session and I was not necessarily welcome. And that is part of the gig with the players in Ennis. They are all competing for gigs and paid sessions.
This is a venue/musician thing, not necessarily a musician/musician thing. See, if you pay to play on Tuesdays, and I come in and play for free the other days, then you will never give me the gig on the other days.
A "paid session" isn't or shouldn't be the same as a "gig" or "closed session". Unfortunately, things are getting a bit blurred these days. In Scotland, things are going the same way. We now have these "McEwans Sessions" which are a bit like "gigs in disguise. I believe that they are supposed to be "open" in theory, but the core of musicians is "hand picked".
Having said all that, I'm not against "paid sessions" as such where the core of regulars are paid a fee to ensure that the session takes place. What they do with the money varies from place to place. Sometimes, it is divided among everyone there or "goes behind the bar" to buy drinks for the musicians. Or the one or two mainstays may keep it for themselves. However, as a visitor to such a session, that doesn't really concern me too much as long as I'm welcome to play.
Cruise`s in Ennis always gives me the impression of a "gig for the tourists" rather than a session. The musical quality is very good and you might get invited to join in - or you might not.
Ciaràn`s or May Kearney`s are much more friendly sessions regardless of whether the anchor musicians are getting paid.
Incidentally, I noticed that Ciaran`s is not listed in the sessions section. I know where it is but don`t remember the address and I`m not sure what nights of the week the sessions are on, so perhaps somebody who lives locally and knows these details could enter this.
May Kearneys, *alas*, was no more when we were in Ennis a couple of months back.
What we really enjoyed were the sessions in Brandon's and Hurleys, at the other end of town from Cruises.
Eoin O'Neill led them. He has a very welcoming attitude to all players and expects you to get your instrument out, play and lead a set or two.
The session in Brandon's swelled to over 27 musicians, so highly were his sessions regarded. (Yes, packed tight, so we were all playing the same tune at the same time!)
Many other musicians who consider themselves to be at the top of the pile could learn a thing or two from Eoin's attitude.
Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
In Ireland, most pubs are smallish and the sessions can only get so big. Due to size constraints, and perhaps noise, players that want to hear each other sit close together. Personal space issues are sacrificed for the greater good. More and more I feel the need to emulate this environment, even if forced into large spaces.
Pubs in the States are huge, and often publicans will suggest a large space for a session location. People like their space, they want a seat at the table, the session spreads out, losing focus. More people come in, and the publican adds tables instead of taking them away.
In Milwaukee this year at the festival, there were two sessions in huge rooms. People walked right up and plonked down. The third or fourth guitarist sat down right behind one of the session leaders and drove him right out of the session. It was a struggle to keep anything going. The basher guitarist then went to the other room, joining three or four other guitarists to sink that session. Even without over-accompaniment, the sheer size of the session seems to decrease the quality. People can't hear each other, etc.
How do other people handle sessions in large spaces? Pub sponsorship of sessions is limited and we can only throw so many house parties!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
As a general rule, big sessions work best if there is an abundance of strong players and polite punters; otherwise give up.
If a session gets too big, it runs the risk of breaking up into smaller sessions where one group can't hear what the other is doing. Our session in the Porterhouse is nice in that although the pub is big, we play in a partitioned area where there is only so much room.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
In a large session, the crack is the big thing, and the music will suffer -- you just have to accept that and be okay with it. To enjoy a big session, I have to put myself in the mindset of it all just being a big loud party, not making particularly good music -- just fun music! Nothing wrong with that, so long as you can enjoy that situation.
If you can't enjoy that sort of session, then don't go, because you'll only be putting yourself into a bad mood. It's not fair to the people who *can* enjoy that.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.s.
Me, I generally don't go, although sometimes I want to spend time with folks who do go, so I have to be careful to put myself into that mindset.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Spot on,Zina. Big sessions are all about socializing. Musically, they aren't the most satisfying, but they can still be fun.
Five or six years ago, I walked into a pre-festival session in a huge room. The players were in a circle about 20 feet in diameter, with 40-50 musicians thrashing away on what could've been mistaken for a set of reels...or a New York City traffic jam in the Holland Tunnel. I turned right around, scurried down the hall, and found a cozy little session of five players out of earshot of the larger conflagration.
Whenever a session gets too big, I've always found a few players eager to splinter off for some tunes in another room. And I've also enjoyed great 'brawls' of a session with a crowd of friends.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Yeah, I get the crack part, and usually enjoy myself as I am a newish parent. I will have to keep the advice for the next festival and try to start up sessions in small spaces only! But for the pub session here, I will continue to fight on to make it better, and have good crack as well.
For one, I put the kids to bed and go late. That seems to work well for me, as many people go home early, so the last shift is smaller.
Secondly, I try to sit with and gather round some of the better players so as to have a focus...at least we can hear each other.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
That's a part of what I am saying. The rooms are big and accomodating and so one is not limited by physical space, only by inhibitions, morals, ettiquette, embarassment, shame...
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Well we are talking about human beings here after all; you can't expect inhibitions, morals, etiquette, embarrassment, or shame to take precedence over the power of anyone’s ego.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
OK, I agree that one cannot control the size of the session, but how about the way that it is formed? Sometimes I get the motivation to push tables out of the way or insist that people move closer together, or ask someone to move so that I can squeeze in. However, after putting the kids to bed, who has the energy?
It seems, at least around here, that people would rather spread out than be able to hear each other.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
The problem is that most people who play ITM go to sessions to play and would rarely consider just listening. I struggle with this concept myself, and I have gone to sessions and found there were enough musicians already there and that anymore wouldn’t be necessary. I would sit and have a pint and watch other musicians come in after me and pile on to the session. I would watch as all the seating possibilities that I had spied on arrival being taken by the newcomers. Then I wonder why I didn't just join in right when I got there anyway. Can you imagine a session where more musicians than needed show up but everyone takes turns around the table? Maybe when we die and go to the big session in the sky, but unfortunately -- it seems that everyone wants to play as much as they can regardless of what's good or bad for a given session.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Excellent points Jack. I can remember one time I sat down and the only place was outside the session circle by a margin. I remember feeling shunned as I consider myself to be one of the leaders. So I started out a tune set and then said to myself "why the hill did I do that?" I think I may have packed up after that.
That's part of the problem of the expando session, when you get someone way outside starting a set of tunes, and then the dominoe effect goes into play. Waves of Tory I call it.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I think it could be interesting, or at least entertaining if a psychologist was to do a comprehensive study of human behavior at ITM sessions. Is there a doctor in the house?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Someone told me recently in an email... or maybe somewhere on this list, that they have a session where they maintained the circle size and limited its sideways expansion. The people that were forming the second tier week after week eventually broke away and started a new session elsewhere that they called, "The Outer Circle". The person telling me this wondered if the title of the splinter group's session was intended as a snipe on the original session, but to me – it sounded like a very workable solution.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Jode, please keep in mind, the sessions at Irishfest are not indicative of the sessions here. They try to accomodate as many as possible to join in as part of the fest. The regular sessions at the pubs are smaller. The regulars from the pubs may have been put off and hence left. I didn't go the sessions tents, too many concerts, so little time. I understand that the sessions after hours were great.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Arrgh, those damned guitarists!
Don't psychoanalyze ITM players. It would be fascinating, but you'd be kicking over some really nasty rocks.
Most larger sessions in pubs that I've been to are usually set up as a small circle in a corner of the room. That way, it can only grow in one or two dimensions. However, I've been to sessions at places like Augusta (a week-long camp) where it was sort of like a gravity well that attracted lumps of space debris, coagulating into a pulsing, chaotic fount of noise. When the 'guitar player' from Pittsburgh (carrying a dreadnaught-sized guitar strung with four huge strings a la an octave mandolin) showed up to pummel us senseless with his auditory musculature, I packed up and wandered off in search of greener and smaller pastures. I found a nice little session out back, and had great fun away from the maddening crowds.
Moral of story? Avoid large sessions, or sit back with a pint and watch the pageant.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Sessions change throughout evening, too. If things are too dodgy for one's taste, you can simply wait for the "late shift" to wander in, and then take your rightful place. I've noticed that our sessions start with the beginners and the students, and after they've played their pieces, they get and leave or otherwise wander off. By the time the rosier hours arrive, there's a right fine little ensemble settling in for a night's work.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Debwa - I was talking about the two sessions on the second floor of the Park East on Sunday night...we had a session earlier in the week at Paddy's, which has nice small areas that would naturally limit session size.
The student union earlier in the week had just the problem we are discussing. Pre-exercising advice from above, I did not play at the union this year, however, had slogged my way through a few tunes last year.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I like the way you think Stevie... very communal, it can be a problem though if time is limited. But if beginners showed up early and left the regular or later hours for more experienced players -- how long before everyone starts showing up at the later hours to be considered part of the advanced crowd?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Jack and Stevie: Yes. I currently do show up late, but Jack is probably correct that this will not last. In fact, that was the real demise of another session in town, one that had lasted for years.
The "slow" session was set up at an earlier time and used a different room in the pub (a restaurant type of place with many big rooms). As time passed the slow session and the regular session overlapped, timing wise. Then some of the slow attenders would sit in at the regular session for awhile. Then, the slow session moved into the same room as the regular session and eventually most people wanted to stay (with their music stands and tune books).
Even our local guitar hero who will play with anyone, encourage anyone and always goes out to a session. Even he could no longer go and it eventually died.
So, part of my motivation for starting this discussion was to find ways to save this session, which I helped to start in the first place.
Part of me wants to cut and run, and start a new one somewhere else, but the other part says "no, this session will not be ruined!" Besides, if I start something new, people will call me elitist...
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Where's that doctor? Bring in the shrinks!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
The way I've dealt with the problem locally was to give up being the only session host at our local. Now, with various hosts, the pressure on the session has lightened up. People tend to attend the session with hosts that have a similar take on the tunes, tempo, level of playing etc. Having a variety of session styles is more acceptable now because different host have different preferences. It doesn’t mean that some people won’t still consider you “elitist” for having your own preference that might discourage big crowds and beginners, but at least you can go out for a tune and enjoy yourself on your night. And there's nothing wrong with having sessions elswhere on the other nights. It's all good.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Well, we don't really have set hosts, but I will take your point to go out and have fun on the nights I do get out.
I'm honestly not concerned about the elitist tag. I guess I will have to just get used to pushing tables out of the way and trying to make smaller circles.
Thanks for the therapy...now for Doctor Guinness? Have a great weekend!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Very good point Jack!
Shortly after I arrived in Tassie I managed to get along to the Irish Murphy's session in Hobart.
"Oh great!" was the welcome, at which one of the group went to the bar to claim the free pint tickets.
One flute was then accompanied by a plinkety plink mandolin (no melodies) bones, spoons and bodhran and weak guitarist...this has happened a number of times since then, the greatest outweighing being
2 guitars (non listening)
3 mandolins (percussive!)
3 bodhrans
1 spoons
1 bouzouki (percussive)
It's a bit of a downer when you travel 50 miles each way for a tune.
So your comment Jack is quite appropriate...if only some listening happened.
That's how I've always taught - you can't play in a session if you don't listen!
Brianx
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Getting just a tad self-righteous, aren't we Jack?
Jack wrote:
"I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)"
Wow. I'm not sure how to take that. Not only have I sat listening through many sessions without ever cracking the case open, I've seen lots of other players do that too. If I didn't know that Jack was such a decent hyooman bean, I'd think he was casting dark and dire and totally unfounded aspersions wider and heavier than Dougie Baker's muck raker....
I went to a session once that was just a fiddle, a banjo, and a flute. The tunes were so light and fine, I just wanted to listen. Then another fiddler showed up, and the energy level jumped up a bit, but it was still so crisp and clean, like bleached bedsheets snapping in the breeze on an Iowa clothesline. I didn't need to join in to enjoy it, and three years later I can still hear their versions of the tunes in my head...McKenna's with a B part different than any other way I've heard it, the Crib of Perches, a whole set of Sean Ryan jigs. At one point I leaned over to ask the name of a particular tune, and they invited me to join in, but it was far better to just buy them a round and listen some more.
I've also sat out of my own local session, the one I ostensibly run, as well as many other sessions (especially when there are already lots of other players). I've walked out of sessions that grew too big and invited a few folks to join me elsewhere for tunes we could hear. Just last month I sat out of a splended little session at the Montana Irish Festival in Butte, despite being invited to join in. I didn't want to be distracted by my own playing when I could listen to the likes of the players around me. I'd just played in a pub with them for 4 hours--then came a chance to just listen., which is indeed a great pleasure. I'm sure many other people here feel the same way.
There...I've said my piece. The pulpit is yours again Jack.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Ok, Will... but how was I being "self-righteous"?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Big sessions only exist because of the preponderance of people thinking that "joining in" is "contributing".
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by ...
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
That's basically it Michael. And I guess Will was somehow taking my question and hand-raising scenario a bit too personal. I wasn’t insinuating that Will, or anyone else, isn’t capable of listening when going to sessions -- I was simply attempting to illustrate a point that Michael accomplished in one sentence.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I wonder what the optimum size for a session is. It obviously depends, amongst other things, on the quality of the players. I'd suggest for most sessions the optimum is between 6 and 10, with 12-15 as a practical maximum. Most sessions I go to do have a natural maximum of a dozen or so, which is dictated by the space available.
Too much space with a smallish group may not be good if the acoustics are bad. One session in Bristol was in a large club room with a vast expanse of carpet and a low, acoustically tiled ceiling (because there's a dance hall immediately above). Acoustically, it was a disaster; we couldn't hear each other unless we sat in very tight, the sound was dead, and nobody a few yards away could hear us. The only thing going for it was a wood floored dancing area that could take two sets of set dancers. The session at that venue is now defunct and has moved to a pub venue which is more appropriate, but unfortunately there's no area that can be set aside for set dancing.
Trevor
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Further thoughts. The ideal session size (or the practical maximum anyway) is perhaps dictated by the necessity for all the players to hear each other and to have eye contact.
In classical chamber music, which I think is a useful pointer in this instance, a group of up to about 9 players can play together by maintaining eye contact and listening.
I can't think offhand of any chamber music composition for more than 9 individuals (most are for 3-6 players). Start going above 9 and you're going to need, if not a conductor, then a playing director, and then you have a small orchestra and not a chamber ensemble. A session is a chamber music ensemble, and I think the same practical rules apply.
Trevor
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
That's right, diddly music, at its best, is ensemble music. The definiton being, there is no director (or periferal goat wackers eitheer)?
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by ...
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Sorry, but I think this is all a bit precious. ' I'd suggest for most sessions the optimum is between 6 and 10, with 12-15 as a practical maximum' - Well fine, but I've been to great sessions that were bigger than that. The old Jude The Obscure Sunday afternoon sessions in Oxford would have up to about 25 musicians and were ab fab(!) - but everyone pulled together and there were sufficient strong players to keep it all in line. It sounded brilliant, even if more people turned up, because there was a commonality of purpose, and because the size of the session negated any prima donna-ish elements. It was was more like being in an orchestra than a 'chamber music ensemble'!
But then the acoustics were pretty good in there - we could all hear where we were going.
I'd rather play with just 2 or 3 other people though...
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Jack, you point blank said that no one here has a sense of discretion. That no one here (except yourself and Zina) would consider just listening, instead of getting the instrument out and bashing along.
Maybe you were just being hypothetical, but it didn't read that way to me, and I think it's a gross overstatement. In fact, looking back over the years here, I can think of a fair amount of discussion at this site from people who frequently refrain from joining in at sessions out of discretion and respect for the music and players.
No big deal. I simply used myself as the exception to your rule.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Will, it was trying to use a fun visual imaginary scenario to illustrate a point. For one; I didn't raise my imaginary hand, and in fact talked about how I struggle with this very issue. So I didn't imply that I was holier than thou, and I only used Zina's name because it seemed like a fun idea at the moment. You're taking the whole thing too personal... and to literal. Try just getting the gist instead.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Not personal at all, just not seeing the humor in how you wrote it. Was blind, but now I...well, I still don't see it, but I'll take your word for it.
Besides, just cuz a room fills up with 30 overeager sessioneers doesn't mean there aren't 100 more sitting on their hands at the bar or at home, prefering that to participating in the musical brawl. I still think most people have a sense of discretion. It's just that there are still enough me-first types to overwhelm the average session. That's the gist as I see it.
(BTW, Jack, why do I have the feeling that we'd communicate--and get along--much better face to face than we seem to online here? I hope that's not just wishful thinking on my part, and that we'll get a chance to find out some day, over pints and tunes.)
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Lol, and I'm rather enjoying the row between Michael and Eoino--kinda like a bodhran player and a fiddler taking the last two seats at an already 'full' session and running the whole thing into the ground because they each think the other one's got lousy rhythm....
I think there is no fixed 'optimum' number of participants at a session. So much depends on the room, acoustics, the caliber and sobriety of the players themselves, the mood, the ratio of shared expectations to divergent expectations, the roster of instruments, and who didn't shower that day. Personally, I prefer smaller, intimate circles, but I've seen larger crowds pull it off. And sometimes a big session turns into a dialogue between two distinct clumps of players with different tunes, and the music goes back and forth, and you hear lots of 'new' tunes, and every so often you all pounce on the same tune at once. That can be great fun, especially if it doesn't turn competitive.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I think Jack's lying. If he turned up to a session there'd be no way he'd just sit there and not get his monkey box out. How could he with an audience there expecting a public performance to begin any minute?
And by the way right, Jack said: "I have a question. How many people here would consider going to a session but not playing if there's already enough people, raise your hand.... hmmmm I see... no one. Oh wait -- I see your hand Zina. Ok, how about -- you show up but don't play because there's already 2 or more people who play your instrument? hmmm.... (oddly enough, no back-up players are raising their hands)"
Damn right I wouldn't consider it. My annoying young upstart hugely inflated ego would not allow me to just sit there and not play. The more backers the better anyway. If there was only one guitarist playing they'd more than likely need help to drown out the melody players. I'd make sure to play extensions on the guitarist's chords so that the harmonies are inappropriately full and jazzy-sounding, like if the other guy's playing an E minor, I'd be playing a B minor 7th so you'd get a nice E minor 11th. I wish I could play diminished chords effectively on Basil - you could get some really nice ugly sounding harmonies going that would clash so much it would make the whole room throb. Hahahaha. And I'd make sure to play slightly behind the beat to drag the rhythm gradually more and more so that the melody players are forced to slow down until by the end of a set of reels it's like a funeral dirge and there's nothing they can do about it. Hahahaha. Or I'd thrash out really fast rhythms with inappropriate syncopation that doesn't go with the tune so that the tune players can't keep up. Backing's great fun!
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I rest my case.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Will, I think we would get on fine face-to-face. On this board I sometimes feel like you and I are those 2 blind East Indian men standing on different sides of an elephant and trying to describe what it is by touch. We're both talking about the same thing, but we have completely different discriptions.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Michael said: " diddly music, at its best, is ensemble music." Very much a matter of personal taste. Ensemble trad music is fun and exciting, but some of the finest I've heard has been solo (some of Kevin Burke's solo fiddling, for example.)
Jack said "... there were enough musicians already there and that anymore wouldn’t be necessary." Again, entirely a matter of personal taste, and if it bothers you that one more fiddle went and joined a group that you though was just right, aren't you really upset that one or more people didn't agree with your personal taste? It would bug me if someone joined Kevin Burke on one of those wonderful solos with a flute, but Michael would probably enjoy it more.
(Leaving aside "obvious" msifits like clashing guitar chords or bodhran rythyms.)
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by grego
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
A "Big session" can be a wonderful, joyous occasion, if everything gels. There's something there for everyone but some of the "hard bitten" veterans might have to play the odd "daggy" or warhorse tune from time to time as the "common denominator" is reduced somewhat. Still, you can get some great tunes too and there's no compulsion for everybody to be playing at the same time.
I find what spoils a "Big session" is not the number of players but the increase of drunken and noisy punters which they can attract.
Yes, smaller set ups can produce more "serious music" but may also be cliquish. Not in all cases, before you protest, and I do realise that it's up to you to "fit in with the session" should you decide to join and not the other way around.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Okay Jack, I've got the end with the trunk, you can have the other end.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Are we talking about a "Jumbo session"?
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I was wondering why it stinks so much.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Actually, I think we were talking about the conditions that make sessions swell like Bush's ever-increasing deficit. My take on it was to try and get ourselves, as individuals, to examine our own role in a session’s expansion. Like I said, I for one have struggled with my own behavior regarding whether or not to join a session I visit.
My first trip to Ennis in the middle of February in 1996 comes to mind; I just arrived in town on a Sunday and I went into Cruises and was delighted to find Tommy Peoples and Kevin Crawford having a session in the afternoon. There was plenty of room around the table, so, after a few minutes, without any further thought, I pulled up a chair and sat down. I was assembling my flute and happened to glance up at Kevin who said to me, “You’re all right.” And he nodded in a friendly way. I was puzzled by the comment, but what he meant by it took a while before I began to get a clue. It was only after being in Ennis for a while that I realized sitting right down like I did was considered presumptuous, unlike how it would have been perceived by my peers back in SF. I was in Ennis for a couple of more weeks and noticed that a lot of musicians, who’s sessions I had played at around town, were also in Cruises on Sunday afternoons – without their instruments. Then I started to notice musicians sans instruments attending other people’s sessions around town too. This of course was major food for thought.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
So Kevin and Tommy hang out at that end of the elephant too?
:oD
I find what's tricky is loitering within earshot of a session without coming across as yet another punter wannabe-musician on the verge of interrupting them with some inane questions about those songs they're playing or the vacuum cleaner the one guy is losing the wrestling match against....
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Actually Will, If you were to ask the other musicians sitting around Cruises on Sundays when Tommy and Kevin were playing why they didn't bring their instruments and join in -- they'd probably say they just wanted to relax and enjoy some good music. I'm only speculating that when they do that at other session's around town -- they're doing it so that the sessions aren't huge and overcrowded. When I’m there in November the Trad Fest will be on with musicians like myself visiting the sessions -- I’m sure whatever etiquette I observed in February will not be in practice necessarily. But since I’ll be around for a couple of weeks after that it will be interesting to see what it’s like when things return to normal.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
i have only been to a couple sessions, and i have not played at any of them. because its not my place yet to play, i am not good enough. there are some tunes they played that i knew, but i'm not gonna ruin their fun to try and stretch my ego. a friend of mine was working at the renaissaince fair and she asked me to play with her, and that was fine. i didnt do to well cuz it was a weird wooden whistle that i wasnt used to, cuz it wasnt mine, but she didnt mind, cuz she asked me to play with her band (just at a random corner of the ren fair). and thats how it should be. wait till you're invited to play, and just watch and learn.
my uncle and a friend of ours and i spent a couple hours discussing session etiquette and behavior, and we even started relating it to how people act in general, and even more interestingly, to the irish music scene. we found some things that we hadnt thought of before. i think it would be a very interesting study.
# Posted on September 12th 2004 by daiv
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Does the session depend on numbers or on talent?
If there are already 3 of your instrument there, what matters is - are they better than you. If not, they possibly have something to learn (providing they learn), and you possibly have a moral duty to impart a nugget or two of info (especially if you are a stranger - with less to lose).
If they are better than you, there is no shame in keeping the box shut.
# Posted on September 12th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Back to Jack's converation about Cruises. I had a similar experience. Some hot players were sitting around a table. I sat nearby with my fiddle case in hand debating whether I was good enough to sit in. At last I was invited. I actually said to the box player "I might have sat down earlier, but I did not know whether it was a gig or a session."
He sneared at me and said, "it's a gig."
What he meant was that it was a paid session and I was not necessarily welcome. And that is part of the gig with the players in Ennis. They are all competing for gigs and paid sessions.
This is a venue/musician thing, not necessarily a musician/musician thing. See, if you pay to play on Tuesdays, and I come in and play for free the other days, then you will never give me the gig on the other days.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
I'm reading that last sentence and it doesn't make sense. Try:
I am paid to play on Tuesdays, and I come in and play for free the other days. The pub owner then does not need to give me another paid night.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
A "paid session" isn't or shouldn't be the same as a "gig" or "closed session". Unfortunately, things are getting a bit blurred these days. In Scotland, things are going the same way. We now have these "McEwans Sessions" which are a bit like "gigs in disguise. I believe that they are supposed to be "open" in theory, but the core of musicians is "hand picked".
Having said all that, I'm not against "paid sessions" as such where the core of regulars are paid a fee to ensure that the session takes place. What they do with the money varies from place to place. Sometimes, it is divided among everyone there or "goes behind the bar" to buy drinks for the musicians. Or the one or two mainstays may keep it for themselves. However, as a visitor to such a session, that doesn't really concern me too much as long as I'm welcome to play.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Cruise`s in Ennis always gives me the impression of a "gig for the tourists" rather than a session. The musical quality is very good and you might get invited to join in - or you might not.
Ciaràn`s or May Kearney`s are much more friendly sessions regardless of whether the anchor musicians are getting paid.
Incidentally, I noticed that Ciaran`s is not listed in the sessions section. I know where it is but don`t remember the address and I`m not sure what nights of the week the sessions are on, so perhaps somebody who lives locally and knows these details could enter this.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
May Kearneys, *alas*, was no more when we were in Ennis a couple of months back.
What we really enjoyed were the sessions in Brandon's and Hurleys, at the other end of town from Cruises.
Eoin O'Neill led them. He has a very welcoming attitude to all players and expects you to get your instrument out, play and lead a set or two.
The session in Brandon's swelled to over 27 musicians, so highly were his sessions regarded. (Yes, packed tight, so we were all playing the same tune at the same time!)
Many other musicians who consider themselves to be at the top of the pile could learn a thing or two from Eoin's attitude.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by philgregg
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Where have I heard that before?: "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday..."
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
"I'll gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today."
Wimpy -- Popeye's friend
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
Thanks Jim...I realized that upon clicking POST.
# Posted on September 15th 2004 by Jode
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
hahahaha
# Posted on September 15th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Session Demise Theory #1 - The big room
It was just that I could picture the character, but could not remember his name...I had to look and share.
# Posted on September 15th 2004 by Jode