Just read an article in the paper yesterday about DNA research carried out by some guys at Trinity College Dublin. They have analyzed the DNA of several thousand Irish people and apparently there is no evidence of the Celts in them.
The closest European relatives to the Irish [in DNA terms] are the Portuguese!!
Does this mean that we all have to revise our notion of ourselves in the emerald isle? Will we now have to rebrand our 'Celtic' music as Fado??
Will Glasgow Celtic have to be renamed Glasgow Ports??
And presumably Lisburn is actually a derivation of Lisbon!
What do they consider to be 'Celtic' then? I think of it as a linguistic term - hence P-Celtic (British) and Q-Celtic (Gaelic). unless you're talking about Iron-age prehistoric Celts.
The Vikings had a lot of influence too, especially in areas such as Dublin.
The study was into the alleged invasion of Ireland by the ancient Celts who supposedly ousted our Tuatha Dé Danann and Pictish former inhabitants of the island.
They found no evidence of DNA markers that correspond to modern middle and eastern europe from whence the Celts supposedly came.
The text of the articles is as follows:-
THE Irish and Scots may be as closely related to the people of northwestern Spain and northern Portugal as the Celts of central Europe, a new study suggests.
Historians have long believed the British Isles were swamped by a huge invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe in about 500BC. But geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin, now claim the Irish and Scots have as much, if not more, in common with the people of Galicia in Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, a genetics lecturer at Trinity, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia. “It’s well known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more,” he said.
“We think the links are much older than the Iron Age because they also show affinities with the Basque region — which isn’t Celtic. The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.”
Historians believed the Celts, originally from the Alpine regions of central Europe, invaded the British Isles 2,500 years ago.
By comparing DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels. Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6,000 years ago up until 3,000 years ago.
So all those people who invent fictitious Irish relatives to justify playing the music have been wasting their time...
Is there a smoking ban in Portuguese pubs?
The Road to Lisbonvarna?
Does anyone remember the programme The Atlantean? The claim, subsequently widely discredited, was that Ireland was colonised by North Africans who arrived there via Spain. Even though some of the evidence was very sketchy, it's always made me question the exact provenance of the Irish as a race. I mean, we don't even look Celtic. We're more like the Spanish, minus the tan.
Well in recent years archaeologists, historians and linguists are all moving closer to the idea of cultural transferrence, meaning that it was more of a spread of a way of life rather than a mass movement of people.
The date usually given for the arrival of the Celts in Ireland is around 500BC, although this is being pushed further back now. Whether that was a movement of people or cultural transferrence is somewaht irrelevant to the idea of cultural identity, after the country had been Celticised, as it were, it remained that way. We know virtually nothing of the language and traditions of the people who were here before those who at least identified themselves as Celts. In fact there is only one Irish place name that we can definitely say is pre-Celtic, that is Partry in Mayo.
The question of the people of Britain is a similar one, Scotland was conquered by the Uí Néill dynasty of Dál Riada around the 5 century AD and remained closely culturally related to the Irish right up until 1650 or so, and even after.
As regards the Celtic speaking people of Britain, again whether they were actual Celts or simply people who identified themselves as such is again linguistically and culturally irrelevant. After the Celtic languages arrived in Britain and Ireland they began developing in different directions, but remarkably with similar and corresponding sets of sound changes, lenition for example.
Similarly with the Angles and the Saxons, there was a definite movement of people in these cases, however after time, the Anglo-Saxon way of life became more culturally attractive, people who weren't of actual Angle or Saxon descent began to identify themselves as such.
Nau juh people dschasst fehss itt: I am more Keltik senn juh arr!
Hmm... People from the Alpine region invading the British isles... doesn't that ring a bell?
Celtic greetings
Christian - Black forest piper
Add to all that, the Keltoi never called themselves that, it was the Greeks who called them that, and from what I've been able to ascertain, yes, "Celtic" in the modern sense is a linguistic grouping, not one of genetics. I believe it's fairly well documented that the Irish have only the odd bit of Celt blood in them, which is more or less the odd bit of mixed bloods that almost all European genetic groups contain, speaking in generalizations.
Cool! So the Irish are the Pirates of the Carribean (?) I knew I liked that movie...
Hope your Dad is well Zina. It may seem a long road, but the surgery is now done so often, that the results are great; they really have "perfected" the procedure.
People think about this for a second who used to live in Portugaul, Spain, and France? The Celts, then what happened Julius Ceasar chased them into the Celtic colonies of Spain and France, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. The Gaelic Celts came frome ancient France which was know as Gaul since Gaulic doesn't sound that great it became Gaelic it was a language a culture and everything else till the Romans came. So in all actuality the places that call them selves Celtic are not only Celtic but usually a mix of culutres but mostly Celtic this is all do to Cultural blending.
I KNEW there was a reason that I've always said I do not play Celtic music!
So many people come up to me and say they love Celtic music - I always reply that I play Irish music...at last I know!
Go raibh maith agat!
Brianx
Good question, Wendyann. I'd like to know as well. Perhaps one of the experts here (Danny?) would like to give a brief outline for the benefit of the non-biologists.
Trevor
Isn't it that when it's magnified it's got green and white hoops??? haha!!
Any way, I've believed all my life that my family comes from Saxon origin, only to find out that I'm a descendant of a Norman noble...
I'm French!!!
When the Greeks (whoever they were) useed their term 'Keltoi', they didn't bother with DNA tests. I believe the term meant something along the lines of 'barbarians' or 'foreigners'(incidentally, the original meaning of 'Welsh' as well), and the chances are, it was applied to any of a number of unshaven, roughly clad peoples with a propensity for war than happened to be in the region at the time.
It has long been known that the island of Hibernia has been subject to several waves of immigration over the millenia. A thousand years is a long time. Think of the hundreds of different immigrant groups (few, if any of them ethnically 'pure') that have arrived in England, America - and even Ireland - in just the last half century. Given Ireland's proximity to continental Western Europe, is it any surpise that there are strong genetic links with Portugal?
The first human people who - according to Irish mythology - came to Ireland and defeated Tuatha de Dannann, were the Sons of Mil Espaine...and they came from...Spain!
So in old time the Irish were well avware that they originally came from Spain.
I'm glad this debate has taken a silly turn. The whole notion of any ethnic purity of the Celts, be it Proven or not by *mitochondrial* DNA analysis (the only "true" test of maternal lineage)...who cares? ...is one which scares me.
Some years before I born, ie, in the middle of the last century, there was a big country in the middle of Europe, whose leader at the time went to great lengths to persuade the citizens that they were genetically superior to everyone else. The end result is that only now is Europe able to think about acting as a unified political entity, which they could have achieved 50 years previously had not the North Americans merely parsimoniously witnessed the demise.
Let me throw in a little anecdote here. During the 1992 Winter Olympics, my younger son was 8 years old. Several medals, at least one gold, were won by Bjorn Daely (sp?) of Norway. My son turned to me and said, "Isn't Daely an Irish name?" I replied, "Many Norwegian Vikings settled in Ireland over the years, and your great-great-grandfather was Cornelius Daly, so you probably have Vikings in your ancestry." He loved it, and swaggered around the house the rest of the day, a fierce Viking.
By the way how can anybody in their right mind consider Trinity College as being representative of "the Irish" Though Brendan Behan did refer to her students as "the cream of Ireland ..rich and thick" I see little evidence of any racial purity there.
Now our family, O'Connors on one side and O'Briens on the other, all swarthy, dark hair, long and lean, fit perfectly into the Fermorians Celts physique, especially with our gold-flecked green eyes.!!!
When I visited Cuba in '78 I was usually misstaken for a Cuban !!! A few times I got into rows with racists in Amsterdam and had to "prove" I wasn't Turkish by the colour of my eyes. Long live human diversity !!!VIVA !!!
Lets celebrate live with "our" music.
The Irish aren't Celts!!
The Irish aren't Celts!!
Just read an article in the paper yesterday about DNA research carried out by some guys at Trinity College Dublin. They have analyzed the DNA of several thousand Irish people and apparently there is no evidence of the Celts in them.
The closest European relatives to the Irish [in DNA terms] are the Portuguese!!
Does this mean that we all have to revise our notion of ourselves in the emerald isle? Will we now have to rebrand our 'Celtic' music as Fado??
Will Glasgow Celtic have to be renamed Glasgow Ports??
And presumably Lisburn is actually a derivation of Lisbon!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by breandan
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
They just picked the wrong people, Breandan.
But obrigado anyway.
Wait a minute....??!!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Is that Fado or fadó? The plot thickens.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Yeah, but didn't Fado originate from African and Arabic cultures, brought back to Portugal by seafarers, then it developed among the poor folk.
So, what did the Portuguese have before Fado?
- jigs and reels, presumably!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by xyz
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Well .... once upon a time a long long time ago ..... hee hee!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by breandan
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
What do they consider to be 'Celtic' then? I think of it as a linguistic term - hence P-Celtic (British) and Q-Celtic (Gaelic). unless you're talking about Iron-age prehistoric Celts.
The Vikings had a lot of influence too, especially in areas such as Dublin.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by haylien
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
The study was into the alleged invasion of Ireland by the ancient Celts who supposedly ousted our Tuatha Dé Danann and Pictish former inhabitants of the island.
They found no evidence of DNA markers that correspond to modern middle and eastern europe from whence the Celts supposedly came.
The text of the articles is as follows:-
THE Irish and Scots may be as closely related to the people of northwestern Spain and northern Portugal as the Celts of central Europe, a new study suggests.
Historians have long believed the British Isles were swamped by a huge invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe in about 500BC. But geneticists at Trinity College, Dublin, now claim the Irish and Scots have as much, if not more, in common with the people of Galicia in Spain.
Dr Daniel Bradley, a genetics lecturer at Trinity, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia. “It’s well known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more,” he said.
“We think the links are much older than the Iron Age because they also show affinities with the Basque region — which isn’t Celtic. The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain.”
Historians believed the Celts, originally from the Alpine regions of central Europe, invaded the British Isles 2,500 years ago.
By comparing DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels. Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6,000 years ago up until 3,000 years ago.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by breandan
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Isn't Galicia of Celtic ancestry?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by ceciltguitar
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
So are the Welsh and Cornish the only real Celts in the British Isles?
Trevor
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
This might mean that the English are more Celtic than the Irish! How mad is that?
Better brush up on my roots: Yo soy, tu es... etc.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
So all those people who invent fictitious Irish relatives to justify playing the music have been wasting their time...
Is there a smoking ban in Portuguese pubs?
The Road to Lisbonvarna?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Does anyone remember the programme The Atlantean? The claim, subsequently widely discredited, was that Ireland was colonised by North Africans who arrived there via Spain. Even though some of the evidence was very sketchy, it's always made me question the exact provenance of the Irish as a race. I mean, we don't even look Celtic. We're more like the Spanish, minus the tan.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Well in recent years archaeologists, historians and linguists are all moving closer to the idea of cultural transferrence, meaning that it was more of a spread of a way of life rather than a mass movement of people.
The date usually given for the arrival of the Celts in Ireland is around 500BC, although this is being pushed further back now. Whether that was a movement of people or cultural transferrence is somewaht irrelevant to the idea of cultural identity, after the country had been Celticised, as it were, it remained that way. We know virtually nothing of the language and traditions of the people who were here before those who at least identified themselves as Celts. In fact there is only one Irish place name that we can definitely say is pre-Celtic, that is Partry in Mayo.
The question of the people of Britain is a similar one, Scotland was conquered by the Uí Néill dynasty of Dál Riada around the 5 century AD and remained closely culturally related to the Irish right up until 1650 or so, and even after.
As regards the Celtic speaking people of Britain, again whether they were actual Celts or simply people who identified themselves as such is again linguistically and culturally irrelevant. After the Celtic languages arrived in Britain and Ireland they began developing in different directions, but remarkably with similar and corresponding sets of sound changes, lenition for example.
Similarly with the Angles and the Saxons, there was a definite movement of people in these cases, however after time, the Anglo-Saxon way of life became more culturally attractive, people who weren't of actual Angle or Saxon descent began to identify themselves as such.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
...which is ironically what some Americans who play Irish music were being accused of and derided for in other threads.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Nau juh people dschasst fehss itt: I am more Keltik senn juh arr!
Hmm... People from the Alpine region invading the British isles... doesn't that ring a bell?
Celtic greetings
Christian - Black forest piper
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by ChristianRo
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Does any of this have anything at all to do with the "Black Irish?"
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Theres nothing new here. I came across the Iberian/Irish DNA connections a few years ago.
I think that all that has happened is that DNA testing as a way of life has only recently spread to Trinit College Dublin.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Add to all that, the Keltoi never called themselves that, it was the Greeks who called them that, and from what I've been able to ascertain, yes, "Celtic" in the modern sense is a linguistic grouping, not one of genetics. I believe it's fairly well documented that the Irish have only the odd bit of Celt blood in them, which is more or less the odd bit of mixed bloods that almost all European genetic groups contain, speaking in generalizations.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
The truth is that the Irish came from Sicily. The origin of the jig is the tarantella and the origin of the Bidhran is the round pizza.
Spaghetti Power!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by gian marco
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Bidhran?..Bodhran!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by gian marco
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Am ducking while I "speak".
Perhaps that's why Whelan had the Flamenco in Riverdance(?).
Just a thought......
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Not that far off, Deb. That, as a matter of fact, is supposedly where the Black Irish came from...think sinking ships!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Cool! So the Irish are the Pirates of the Carribean (?) I knew I liked that movie...
Hope your Dad is well Zina. It may seem a long road, but the surgery is now done so often, that the results are great; they really have "perfected" the procedure.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
People think about this for a second who used to live in Portugaul, Spain, and France? The Celts, then what happened Julius Ceasar chased them into the Celtic colonies of Spain and France, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. The Gaelic Celts came frome ancient France which was know as Gaul since Gaulic doesn't sound that great it became Gaelic it was a language a culture and everything else till the Romans came. So in all actuality the places that call them selves Celtic are not only Celtic but usually a mix of culutres but mostly Celtic this is all do to Cultural blending.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
A chairde!
I KNEW there was a reason that I've always said I do not play Celtic music!
So many people come up to me and say they love Celtic music - I always reply that I play Irish music...at last I know!
Go raibh maith agat!
Brianx
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
How I wonder have they defined 'Celtic' dna in the first place?
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by wendyann
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Good question, Wendyann. I'd like to know as well. Perhaps one of the experts here (Danny?) would like to give a brief outline for the benefit of the non-biologists.
Trevor
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
That is a very good question.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Isn't it that when it's magnified it's got green and white hoops??? haha!!
Any way, I've believed all my life that my family comes from Saxon origin, only to find out that I'm a descendant of a Norman noble...
I'm French!!!
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by mark.w
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
When the Greeks (whoever they were) useed their term 'Keltoi', they didn't bother with DNA tests. I believe the term meant something along the lines of 'barbarians' or 'foreigners'(incidentally, the original meaning of 'Welsh' as well), and the chances are, it was applied to any of a number of unshaven, roughly clad peoples with a propensity for war than happened to be in the region at the time.
It has long been known that the island of Hibernia has been subject to several waves of immigration over the millenia. A thousand years is a long time. Think of the hundreds of different immigrant groups (few, if any of them ethnically 'pure') that have arrived in England, America - and even Ireland - in just the last half century. Given Ireland's proximity to continental Western Europe, is it any surpise that there are strong genetic links with Portugal?
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by ragaman
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
The first human people who - according to Irish mythology - came to Ireland and defeated Tuatha de Dannann, were the Sons of Mil Espaine...and they came from...Spain!
So in old time the Irish were well avware that they originally came from Spain.
# Posted on September 12th 2004 by lars
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
I'm glad this debate has taken a silly turn. The whole notion of any ethnic purity of the Celts, be it Proven or not by *mitochondrial* DNA analysis (the only "true" test of maternal lineage)...who cares? ...is one which scares me.
Some years before I born, ie, in the middle of the last century, there was a big country in the middle of Europe, whose leader at the time went to great lengths to persuade the citizens that they were genetically superior to everyone else. The end result is that only now is Europe able to think about acting as a unified political entity, which they could have achieved 50 years previously had not the North Americans merely parsimoniously witnessed the demise.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by xyz
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Let me throw in a little anecdote here. During the 1992 Winter Olympics, my younger son was 8 years old. Several medals, at least one gold, were won by Bjorn Daely (sp?) of Norway. My son turned to me and said, "Isn't Daely an Irish name?" I replied, "Many Norwegian Vikings settled in Ireland over the years, and your great-great-grandfather was Cornelius Daly, so you probably have Vikings in your ancestry." He loved it, and swaggered around the house the rest of the day, a fierce Viking.
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by aquinas9us
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
Who cares! I live for the music and it will live on.
Peter
# Posted on September 18th 2004 by Peter O'Connor
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
By the way how can anybody in their right mind consider Trinity College as being representative of "the Irish" Though Brendan Behan did refer to her students as "the cream of Ireland ..rich and thick" I see little evidence of any racial purity there.
Now our family, O'Connors on one side and O'Briens on the other, all swarthy, dark hair, long and lean, fit perfectly into the Fermorians Celts physique, especially with our gold-flecked green eyes.!!!
When I visited Cuba in '78 I was usually misstaken for a Cuban !!! A few times I got into rows with racists in Amsterdam and had to "prove" I wasn't Turkish by the colour of my eyes. Long live human diversity !!!VIVA !!!
Lets celebrate live with "our" music.
# Posted on September 18th 2004 by Peter O'Connor
Re: The Irish aren't Celts!!
stone circles aren`t celtic either!
they are too old.
knotwork ornaments?
# Posted on October 7th 2004 by adae