Come on Bri - define 'full on English folks'. 'English' is not a guarantee of racial purity(!) Virtually any American will/can claim a bit of Irish in their make-up - particularly those who want to play Irish music. They could probably also claim a bit of German, but are more likely to play the diddly than the Oom-Pah!
The reason people play Irish music is because it’s the best music....
You're right Bri to admire them. I also find English session musicians know a great number of Irish tunes in addition to their own. There's a lot less snobbery towards other people's music.
As for defining Englishness, although there's no racial purity, you have to draw the line somewhere and cannot go through the rigmarole of explaining that you have a bit of Normand, Irish, German or whatever. My husband's parents are both Irish but he was born and raised in Glasgow and sounds like a Glaswegian, so that's what he is, regardless of previous generations. So from time to time I have a bit of Scottish in me
What about all those non-Americans who play rock'n'roll?
Folk music used to be a sympton of what we were trying to escape from. Now that we're all middle-class, it's just another item on the cultural shopping list.
As was once stated on one of my more misunderstood threads several months back, the "ould bloodstock" has nothing to do with the choice of whether to play Irish music and/or to do it well. Cultural influences do, of course, and there's obviously greater exposure to the music in Ireland itself and, indeed, in parts of England, Scotland and American cities like Chicago and New York where strong Irish communities exist. However, all those who are exposed to and enjoy the music aren't necessarily of Irish descent.
I'm not sure why or how it has taken off it countries such as Japan, China where there are also many interested and great players. Perhaps it's due to the influence of touring bands such as The Chieftains etc or, as Bren suggests, it's an item on the cultural shopping list. Or, perhaps, visiting tourists and students brought it back home with them?
Maybe, Slainte might be able to thrown some light on this.
I'm not sure I understand what exactly is being said in this thread. On the one hand, we've a reference to English people playing Irish music and that they're doing well to be so dedicated to it. What is the point being made? Is bribanjo saying that English people are inferior and to be able to play Irish music well they've obviously had to work hard at it. I can understand being impressed by totally different cultures and playing Irish Traditional Music, but to refer to the English. Maybe we need to discuss what the diference is between say Irish, Scottish and English traditional music is. Is there a difference, or should we just refer to everything as Celtic and get rid of the boundaries between Scots and Irish. At the sessions that I attend, we play traditional music. It is of no matter whether it originated in England, Scotland, Ireland, Bulgaria. It's the music that would have been played at home to entertain the folks.
It's a well known fact that the Celtic race homozygously overexpresses the tradmus+/tradmus+ genotype, leading to the session++ phenotype. That's why they are such good musicians. Any Nazi behavioural geneticist will tell you.
Bribanjo seems to be suggesting that these people he describes are in some way immersing themselves in "irishness" rather than just playing the music. But this is not often the case (although it does happen occasionally). People who devote their lives to playing lacrosse, which originated in South America wouldn't be considered to be immersing themselves in "Native South American-ness" - cos it's only a game, and nationality has nothing to do with it. Similarly with ITM, it is only tunes. Sure, you might consider them to be the best kind of tunes etc etc, but being an English person devoted to Irish music is unlikely to be any more of a strain on family and friends that being an English person devoted to English music. Some people "give their lives" to a hobby, and others don't, but the nationality thing that seems to be the basis of the thread is completely irrelevant.
Anecdote:
I'm English. I play Irish music. And I was out last night playing Irish music with my Scottish pal who really is one of the best Irish fiddle players arround. We also played some of my limited repertoir of Scottish tunes and afterwards she laughed, "Ha ha, they're kid's tunes."
Yeah, but she was lucky enough to have been brought up on these kids' tunes, if it's the same person I'm thinking about. I do agree, though, that she's one of the best Irish fiddle players around.
Bribanjo I sort of see what you're saying. I'm probably a bit like that, full-on English, only I don't have a huge CD and vinyl collection. I don't know about other English people's reasons for playing Irish music, but for me it's like being bilingual and having the best of both worlds, like being an English-speaking Irish person who is also a native Gaelic-speaker from the Gaeltacht. My reasons for playing Irish music are as follows. I play Irish music because:
1) It's a good international lingua franca. If you have tunes with someone who plays trad, they're more likely to know "The Wise Maid" or something than some obscure English tune. The reality of the situation is that English sessions are much more mixed in terms of repertoire - there's some English and Scottish, a bit of Shetlands and some tunes from further afield, but a lot of the tunes are Irish, because the tunes are so internationally widespread. So you sort of have to learn quite a few Irish tunes anyway.
2) It's all I have access to. I'm in Australia. Nobody plays English music here or would want to. Like in the States, everyone here wants to be Irish or have some Irish blood, but nobody wants to be associated in any way with England. Good thing too. It's meant that English traditional music has kept itself to itself and hasn't been as McAttacked as Irish music has. So people here play Irish music because it's cool and because everyone else does. I play Irish tunes with them because that's the only musical language in which I can communicate with them.
3) The tunes are nice. There are some really great Irish tunes, so why not learn them and play them?
4) It's a challenge. A lot of the tunes are fast and difficult to play. Fast, difficult tunes help me with my technique, and allow me to enjoy more the tunes I play at home.
5) There are more recordings of Irish tunes so the tunes are more accessible.
So I play Irish music because I enjoy it and my friends play it, but that's where it stops. I'm not Irish, so I don't feel any cultural or emotional connection with the music. I do *not* immerse myself in Irishness. Why would I? My great grandparents were Irish apparently, but so what?! Whoopee-doo for them. I'm not. I play the tunes and appreciate them for their own sake and enjoy my pints as I play.
The music from home that I grew up with, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether. I feel very different when I play it to when I play Irish music, and that difference is hard to describe, so I'm not even going to try.
So anyone who tries to ignore the differences between the music of Ireland/England/Scotland, and denies the deep-rooted cultural significance, emotional attachment and symbolism of each type of music, those people are missing something. That something may not be detrimental to their playing of the tunes, but they're still missing something.
Being a Irish-American (3 generations here) with a heavy dose of liberal guilt, I often wonder if by pursuing ITM I'm also self-selecting to hang out with other white people. You just don't meet a lot of people of Asian, Hispanic or African descent at Irish music festivals or Scottish Games (though you do run into folk from just about everywhere in the world in my neighborhood).
While Americans playing lacrosse may not be celebrating their Native American heritage (I believe the game began with the Iroquois, not South Americans), people who devote their spare time to learning Israeli folk dances, Capoeira, or Indian Ragas (in America at least) generally are getting in touch with their roots. So other Americans interested in ITM generally call themselves Irish by one stretch of the imagination or another.
But back to the original question of English peeps devoting their energies to ITM--is it wrong for a person of Germanic ancestry to become a Judo master? For a Spaniard to be an expert at Chinese cooking? Or a French person to become a world-famous expert in the Basque language?
I just found out my maternal grandfather (who no one was allowed to mention) may have been English. No one still wants to say exactly ... secrets and lies! Good ould church! So I may be a quarter English whatever that means. I've lived a quarter of my life in Spain so I reckon I'm a quarter Spainish too! In addition to IT I've been playing klezma for a few years now. So I'm hoping Grandad was jewish too .. Then I'll be the only jew in our klezma band.
I must admit we get lots of confused jews coming up to us after gigs wandering what the hell is going on.
There are never any questions asked about any one in the world wanting to play Country or Rock or whatever. The reason it's so uncomfortable for people to deal with the english playing IT is the history. It's still there, all that inherited guilt. like Germans playing Klezma.... Like Americans reading the koran.
No, it's not wrong for a Spaniard to be an expert at Chinese cooking, but, let's face it, his recipe for Twice-cooked Pork isn't going to have been handed down from his mum, who in turn had it handed down over 15 generations of the family. His recipe might well be just as tasty as that of someone who has been immersed in the culture, but to say that they are the culturally the same is to ignore a strand of cultural continuity that is linked with identity, pride, childhood memories, respect for one's ancestors and heritage, all that sort of thing. People from places like America and Australia tend to overlook this stuff I think. People are too quick to say "but hey, we're all the same, I can do that too, and I'm as passionate about it as you, so it must mean the same to us both".
Oh come on John J you're no fun anymore. Can't you say something that could be interpreted as racist so we can pounce on you again? That was great fun last time
When I was a biology student way back when, one of our teachers said, "The difference between plants and animals is that animals move around." Over the years I've extrapolated this concept to mean that humans are creatures with moveable roots. That means that if I choose to discover my Irish "roots", it doesn't matter all that much whether I have any in reality. I'm just interested in roots in general, in the way people lived in the world a couple (or more) of generations ago. Plus I love Irish music.
You think that's bad? I know a Belfast bodhran player who's been in London so long he's developed a Dublin accent. How weird is that? Or is it some sort of mistaken pretentiousness?
Well, that depends. At one point I took some Chinese cooking lessons from a wonderful teacher (and a native of Taiwan), but my Hot and Sour Soup recipe (which was invented in the late 1990s when I was sick of no good Hot and Sour Soup in rural Virginia) is still significantly better than hers.
I'm one of them. Brought up in South London of honest English stock. I'm told I'm a 16th or 32th O'Dea, but what does that mean? I started off playing English music and singigng in folk clubs from the early 70s, and graduated to ITM about 15 years ago.
1. I say 'graduated' because without a shadow of a doubt, ITM is infinitely more complex technically, more difficult to play, more musically intricate, generally faster (well, reeels), and above all, aesthetically beautiful in almost every department.
2. If the music is so delightful, that might just be saying something about the people, the nation, it springs from. So over the water I went, and found it to be true. I've visited Oz, States, Canada, and most of Europe, and I have not yet found any people I've met on travels abroad, collectively, so welcoming and endearing as most of those I've met in Ireland (although interestingly Poland comes a close second).
3. Traditional music in Ireland is at the centre of their society. RTE apart,(it doesn't feel to me that RTE embraces ITM) there are always tunes to be heard on the radio over there. But media aside, there is a whole generation of ordinary teenagers and young adults who have in the last decade or so, taken thier own traditional music to themselves and regenerated it with pleasure and pride. I get the feeling visiting Ennis these days that if a young man or woman doesn't play the music, they're somehow not at the centre of things. ITM is cool. The tradition doesn't need reviving, it's never been killed off.
It's the reverse of what happened/happens in England. Morris dancers are the butt of their own nation's humour. Ever wondered why some quite wierd people populate English folk clubs? Maybe it's the only place they can be tolerated, accepted even, in a social group. The English folk tradition seems to exist on the margins.
So that for me is probably the main reason I'm playing ITM as an Englishman. I feel like I'm at the centre of something mainstream, usually accepted and respected for the music I play, well or badly.
The music's beautiful, and the tunes continue to evolve dynamically and healthily. I'll stop now before I repeat myself.
Firstly, lacrosse is definitely a *north* american sport, having originated with (and there is some historical debate over this) the Cherokee or Iroquois and spread to some other nearby tribes. East coast holla!And on the main subject of this debate, I'm an Irish American (2nd generation, I guess - deends on how you figure it) and I have just as much of a cultural/spitirual/ancestral whatchamacallit connection to the music as any of my cousins do back on the auld sod. However, I agree that the music probably doesn't- really can't - have as much significance to people from other traditions, just like I, for instance, like and enjoy listening to and playing klezmer but don't have the symbolic and emotional attachment to it that some of my Ashkenazi friends do. While I don't argue that everyone has an equal right to enjoy and play the music, and that quite a few of them- probably most of them- will be better at it than I am, it won't have the same ultimate significance. It's just a socio-cultural reality.
When I was in Ireland this nasty guy I worked with kept accusing me of "trying to be Irish". It drove me nuts. Sometimes it was because I said something like "Ah,g'wan, ya mad ting" when, as a Canadian, I ought to have said "Take off, eh, hoser." Any colloquialisms I picked up were entirely unintentional, though, as was the growing lilt in my accent. (I noticed some friends from Limerick became more and more intelligible when they were living in Toronto, so I think it goes both ways.)
Anyway, there's nothing more insulting to me than someone claiming I'm trying to be something I'm not, or grasping at some kind of cultural heritage I don't have "roots" in. I could argue that, as a sixth generation Canadian with ancestors from Russia, Ireland, England, and god-knows-where else, I have a legitimate hereditary claim to whatever cultural tradition I choose to tap.
'While I don't argue that everyone has an equal right to enjoy and play the music, and that quite a few of them- probably most of them- will be better at it than I am, it won't have the same ultimate significance. It's just a socio-cultural reality.'
Uh? - my brain hurts ....
A very good Irish style guitar player who's asian told me once, "I think Irish music should be played only by Irish people." I asked him if he intended giving it up then... he looked puzzled.
It's not the people it's the music I have not one bit of Irish blood or English, Scottish, or Welsh for that matter I still play ITM and if you don't mind braging I'm not that bad. Saying only Irish people can play ITM is like saying only black people can play Jazz.
My wife (Irish) goes every week to a set-dancing class near Wells in Somerset. Out of the 30 or so dancers there, she and one other person are the only Irish persons; the others are English. In the sessions I go to in Bristol there are very few Irish; in fact anyone with an Irish accent probably stands a good chance of being a visitor. Many of the set-dancers and musicians regularly go to Ireland for festivals and workshops (as we did in August). Nobody, least of all the Irish, has any problem with this.
Trevor
I don't think this cultural fakery thing really has much to do with Irish music though. In (white) North American culture, becoming a musician can lead to various kinds of weirdness, as people try integrate all the baggage they've learned about how musicians behave into their lives. A lot of people seem to go through a phase after they've been playing for a while where they start wearing cloth caps and drinking a lot of Guinness and shouting "Up ya boya!" during sessions. Fortunately most of them grow out of it, and the rest take up the concertina.
There was a good magazine article a while ago about how in some circles, *being* a Musician is more important than actually playing music. He called these the "music is my bag" people. I figure that the Irish attitude toward music, which you could roughly summarize as "a normal part of life", is a good antidote to that kind of rubbish.
I saw a lot of people up in Belfast dressed up like gangstas - Nikes, satiny jogging suits, trucker caps and gold chains. Seems to be a big thing. And wasn't Garth Brooks number one on the charts in Ireland during their big line dancing craze?
I don't know - I'm basing this on rumours. I never went to a line dance in Ireland, I was too busy pretending to be Irish. From what I hear, they took it seriously enough to squeeze into skin tight jeans and put on hats and boots...
Hmm, Kerri, I can see why some people were a little irritated at a Canadian saying "Ah, g'wan, ya mad ting". There really is no need. That's not just picking up turns of phrase up by accident through exposure, it's making a concerted effort to come across as Irish, but probably just not quite managing it convincingly Why did you want to do that? I think it's interesting and it relates to Bri's original question - maybe you can answer it for him.
Pete May says... "'graduated' because without a shadow of a doubt, ITM is infinitely more complex technically, more difficult to play, more musically intricate, generally faster (well, reeels), and above all, aesthetically beautiful in almost every department".
He obviously hasn't been exposed to the good stuff. Ah well, long may it stay underground, pure and untainted
Gee- what about us filipinos???? I like to play my pipes and fiddle as much as anyone. And my daughter kinda speaks gaelic with the help of a college course.
Felino Og Bautista
Best time was some craic at the thirsty scholar in Cork talking to a native about irish music and he, talking about the blues and living in the south over a few (ok, more than a few) pints
PS- there are pictures of a tionol for pipers in Japan at the c&F uilleann pipe forum. Talk about crossing cultural boundries. NPU was even said to pitch in.
Jack, Jack, its suppose to be undercooked like that. I saw Junji play with Paddy Keenan at Mcabes right after 9/11. Imagine flying with a UP set after that. Great concert. Junji even did a bit of gaelic, which made my head hurt.
Jim-unfortunately my time in Cork was limited- did go to Charlies on Sunday and saw Eoin O Riabhaigh play his pipes- spell binding. That's what my daughter said about Cork's accent- different from other places, much like California. and any place in Mississippi.
Never mind, Dow! I've had an English focus for 15 years, then the Irish for the same length of time. At my age, I'm fairly safe making the general comparisons, and I don't give a monkey's anyway! I love the simple, beautiful tunes as much as I do the complex ones. I'm very happy playing the 'good stuff' that I've found, with the good people I've found.
I don't quite understand your point, that you know of some 'good stuff' I haven't found yet. I rather resent (in a mild sort of way!) your implication that if I do find it, I am somehow going to 'taint' it.
What is this 'good stuff' you've got in Oz? Surely it's not the soaps you've exported here to GB, which seem to have tainted the under 30s with Oz upward inflections, question-like, at the end of every sentence, you know?
Oh the abuse is awful Bri I know, how dare I! And the false hypocritical smiley face at the end of my post too. Dear oh dear. It's so obvious I had only evil intent. How dare I abuse people like that so openly and unreservedly?! Especially people who have been playing 30+ years.. I ought to be locked up god dammit. Pure and untainted English music indeed. How dare I suggest that if an experienced Irish musician play English music then "my precious music" would end up tainted. It's so obvious I was being serious and deliberately malicious. And uncivil! Jeremy, do the world a favour and kick me off thesession.org right now before I cause some real damage!
Egads. I'm mostly German, with a dollop of Polish, Danish, and French. No Irish blood I'm aware of. I've heard the Germans are quite fond of Irish trad, and many play it quite well.
We're down here in Florida. There are people from all over the planet here. Some of the best ITM musicians live in Florida, and I once played a session at the Florida Folk Festival under a wee, rainy tent that had four (4) Uillean pipers. They were pretty good, too!
There was a string earlier about Ian Carr, who I think is English. His material with Karen Tweed, who I think is also English, stands ITM on its ear.
What's really uncool is when ITM musicians who don't have a drop of Celtic blood beat up on the English for what they did to Ireland in the 1800s. It was the powdered wig guys who did it (or who made the decisions and wrote the checks), not the underclasses who have always loved a good tune.
Hey, there's lots of great English Folk music. Christy Moore spent enough time over there and sang many English folk songs. Many Irish musicians have included English tunes in their repertoire too.
I'm a Scotsman so everyone's my pal--especially on a Saturday night (whether in Sauchiehall Street or not) :-0)
Bri I just thought your thread started off too nicey nicey, just not like you at all. I think you're being a bit false, superficial and hypocritical actually, just like me. You should watch it or you might end up nuts. It sounds like you're actually sucking up to musicians who play English music and like giving them a pat on the back for being so strong-willed Well you know what, I don't need support - I could give up playing Irish music tomorrow and go on to lead a perfectly happy life. I only play it so I can get some ideas for ornamentation to work into the music I *really* want to play, i.e. the pure, untainted underground English scene I mentioned earlier. The minute that hits the mainstream I'll be off looking for something else even cooler. Maybe I'll take up the Cornish pipes or something, ooh-arrr.
Aaargh it's gone! Its disappearance has made it all the more intriguing. I didn't even get to try it on my concertina because it's too late and I'd end up waking the neighbours. Speaking of which, I'm feeling rather somnolent. Time to end the Oz shift I think...
Haven't read all of the above but as someone who passes for full-on English I appreciate Bribanjo's sentiments.
Interestingly I have never experienced anything but (apparently, hehe) total acceptance from full-on Irish musicians in Ireland and other parts of the world. The very few unwelcoming comments - two or three maybe in nearly 30 years - came from nonmusicians.
What really blows my mind, as a recovering bluegrass/country/old-time string band player, is how popular our (USA) worst forms of country music are so popular in England, and to a lesser extent, in Ireland. Think of Slim Whitman, for example. Need we say any more?
Country music is the "music of choice" in Ireland it seems. Yer man in the street there has no more interest and (probably) any more knowledge of Irish traditional music than their counterparts elsewhere.
Don't talk to me about country music!
That Iris Dement never returns my emails. You'd think she'd jump at the chance to have the financial security that marrying a second-rate graphics designer could offer her.
She's a very nervous girl--at least on stage, anyway. She's probably a bit wary of you.
Dolly Parton might be a better bet and she's a little nearer to your own age, I'd imagine.
Actually I've only ever been asked why I play Irish music by non-musicians, echoing the trend mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think people actually care as long as you enjoy the music and don't spoil it for everyone else. Have you ever had hassle being London-born like?
Anyway, I can’t figure that Iris out at all. She kept complaining that I sent her ‘creepy emails’ and she said that if I didn’t stop sending her the ‘weird poems’ she’d take legal action. I told that if I knew she was going to be like that, I would never have bothered carving her name on my chest...
Bri I don't blame you for being insecure. I mean, how disappointed your soft-consonanted-parents must have been when their little toddler started speaking Cockney and dropping his t's!
Actually, y'all have some taste when it comes to American country music. Dolly Parton may be a monument to excess in many ways, but she's a serious musician and songwriter, and her backup bands are always awesome. Iris Dement's voice drives my wife nuts, but I'm fond of her too, and she's a genuine talent.
Another thread might be ITM musicians' reactions to the cross-cultural mixing of some of the best country musicians and songwriters of this side of the pond with some wonderful ITM and related musicians in Ireland, England, and Scotland. There was no doubt some money to made on ticket and CD sales from all that, but there was some pretty good music made as well. Was there any American trad that was played over there? (American old-time string band and country music from the 1930s-50s is frequently as overlooked by the average U.S. listener as ITM is overlooked by the average U.K./Irish listener.)
I like Dolly's music and have a few of her CDs. In fact, I enjoy a lot of "good" country music as well as the traditional variety.
I was only trying to fix Ottery up.
Iris sang on one of the Solas albums, and her mate John Prine had Dolores Keane on his album of duets. Stevie Earle had Iris singing with him, and writes songs which get sung in Irish sessions round here - as does Gillian Welch.
I'm happy to listen to any of these people - they play/write real music from the heart...
Yeah, and Altan had Dolly Parton crooning a verse or two on Blue Angel... interesting.
Actually, the second ever session I joined in Ireland (Crotty's, Kilrush, 3 over-70s geezers, what the cheek of me, and I'm playing a piano accordion, too :/) had this really ancient weepy-eyed flute player, and after I'd played a couple of tunes, he leaned over to me and says: 'Well, you'll be Irish, then.'
'No, I'm English, I'm from Kent, in the South-east.'
'Ah, I see. Well, you'll have Irish family then.'
'No, I haven't, not that means anything.' (32nth an O'Dea maybe)
'Well, where did you get the music?'
'Mostly I play with friends in Engalnd...'
'Ah, so they'll be Irish then.'
'No, actually, they're English. Well, my best mate's parents are from Limerick, but he was born in England...'
'Dah. So how do you get the music then?'
Well, I listen to a lot of Cds, and then there's always the dots.'
'What do you mean, the dots?'
'You know, reading the music off a page, the dots. Music.'
'No, that's not the music, the music's what you play!'
And so on, we went in circles like that for a couple of minutes. He was so old, I reckon he's never done a tune from written music in all his days. I felt humble of course, and not confident, an upstart waiting to be politely cold-shouldered maybe, but not a bit of it. This was my lesson in national tolerance and acceptance. The old geezer on the contrary took to me with relish, and kept saying what a compliment it is to have a young Englishman with no Irish connections, and I'd bothered to learn the music. He was genuinely amazed, not taking the piss at all, we had a great few sets of tunes in the back room, and it made me feel even more humble, what a fine gent. And with one or two snotty exceptions, that's been the same general response wherever. The music the thing, not your passport.
The sort of "interrogation" that Petemay underwent was very familiar.
I was born, brought up and educated in England and speak with an English accent. But in my case their curiosity rarely got to more than a couple of questions because as soon as they got a handle on where my parents were from, and discovered my name, that was it !
According to their reasoning, THAT was the reason I could play irish music.
Nothing to do with the hours of practice, learning tunes, etc. or whether I had encouragement at home (I didn`t !).
There`s this underlying assumption that if you`re Irish, or have strong Irish connections, you`ll automatically play Irish traditional music - and play it well.
And, as we know, nothing could be further from the truth !
But, as Petemay says, the questioning was always with the best of intentions and usually ended up with them complementing you on your playing.
Robert De Niro said today at the Venice Film Festival "I'm part Italian, part Dutch, part French, part German and part Irish, but I probably identify more with my Italian side. I'm honoured to be asked to be a citizen."
Now, Jim Troy -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- FOUR counts. Do you confess?
Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Come on Bri - define 'full on English folks'. 'English' is not a guarantee of racial purity(!) Virtually any American will/can claim a bit of Irish in their make-up - particularly those who want to play Irish music. They could probably also claim a bit of German, but are more likely to play the diddly than the Oom-Pah!
The reason people play Irish music is because it’s the best music....
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Word.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Q
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
You're right Bri to admire them. I also find English session musicians know a great number of Irish tunes in addition to their own. There's a lot less snobbery towards other people's music.
As for defining Englishness, although there's no racial purity, you have to draw the line somewhere and cannot go through the rigmarole of explaining that you have a bit of Normand, Irish, German or whatever. My husband's parents are both Irish but he was born and raised in Glasgow and sounds like a Glaswegian, so that's what he is, regardless of previous generations. So from time to time I have a bit of Scottish in me
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Cath
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
What about all those non-Americans who play rock'n'roll?
Folk music used to be a sympton of what we were trying to escape from. Now that we're all middle-class, it's just another item on the cultural shopping list.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Bren
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
As was once stated on one of my more misunderstood threads several months back, the "ould bloodstock" has nothing to do with the choice of whether to play Irish music and/or to do it well. Cultural influences do, of course, and there's obviously greater exposure to the music in Ireland itself and, indeed, in parts of England, Scotland and American cities like Chicago and New York where strong Irish communities exist. However, all those who are exposed to and enjoy the music aren't necessarily of Irish descent.
I'm not sure why or how it has taken off it countries such as Japan, China where there are also many interested and great players. Perhaps it's due to the influence of touring bands such as The Chieftains etc or, as Bren suggests, it's an item on the cultural shopping list. Or, perhaps, visiting tourists and students brought it back home with them?
Maybe, Slainte might be able to thrown some light on this.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I'm not sure I understand what exactly is being said in this thread. On the one hand, we've a reference to English people playing Irish music and that they're doing well to be so dedicated to it. What is the point being made? Is bribanjo saying that English people are inferior and to be able to play Irish music well they've obviously had to work hard at it. I can understand being impressed by totally different cultures and playing Irish Traditional Music, but to refer to the English. Maybe we need to discuss what the diference is between say Irish, Scottish and English traditional music is. Is there a difference, or should we just refer to everything as Celtic and get rid of the boundaries between Scots and Irish. At the sessions that I attend, we play traditional music. It is of no matter whether it originated in England, Scotland, Ireland, Bulgaria. It's the music that would have been played at home to entertain the folks.
Or did I miss something here?
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Anna Karlsson
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
It's a well known fact that the Celtic race homozygously overexpresses the tradmus+/tradmus+ genotype, leading to the session++ phenotype. That's why they are such good musicians. Any Nazi behavioural geneticist will tell you.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Bribanjo seems to be suggesting that these people he describes are in some way immersing themselves in "irishness" rather than just playing the music. But this is not often the case (although it does happen occasionally). People who devote their lives to playing lacrosse, which originated in South America wouldn't be considered to be immersing themselves in "Native South American-ness" - cos it's only a game, and nationality has nothing to do with it. Similarly with ITM, it is only tunes. Sure, you might consider them to be the best kind of tunes etc etc, but being an English person devoted to Irish music is unlikely to be any more of a strain on family and friends that being an English person devoted to English music. Some people "give their lives" to a hobby, and others don't, but the nationality thing that seems to be the basis of the thread is completely irrelevant.
Dave
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Anecdote:
I'm English. I play Irish music. And I was out last night playing Irish music with my Scottish pal who really is one of the best Irish fiddle players arround. We also played some of my limited repertoir of Scottish tunes and afterwards she laughed, "Ha ha, they're kid's tunes."
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by ...
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Yeah, but she was lucky enough to have been brought up on these kids' tunes, if it's the same person I'm thinking about.
I do agree, though, that she's one of the best Irish fiddle players around.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Bribanjo I sort of see what you're saying. I'm probably a bit like that, full-on English, only I don't have a huge CD and vinyl collection. I don't know about other English people's reasons for playing Irish music, but for me it's like being bilingual and having the best of both worlds, like being an English-speaking Irish person who is also a native Gaelic-speaker from the Gaeltacht. My reasons for playing Irish music are as follows. I play Irish music because:
1) It's a good international lingua franca. If you have tunes with someone who plays trad, they're more likely to know "The Wise Maid" or something than some obscure English tune. The reality of the situation is that English sessions are much more mixed in terms of repertoire - there's some English and Scottish, a bit of Shetlands and some tunes from further afield, but a lot of the tunes are Irish, because the tunes are so internationally widespread. So you sort of have to learn quite a few Irish tunes anyway.
2) It's all I have access to. I'm in Australia. Nobody plays English music here or would want to. Like in the States, everyone here wants to be Irish or have some Irish blood, but nobody wants to be associated in any way with England. Good thing too. It's meant that English traditional music has kept itself to itself and hasn't been as McAttacked as Irish music has. So people here play Irish music because it's cool and because everyone else does. I play Irish tunes with them because that's the only musical language in which I can communicate with them.
3) The tunes are nice. There are some really great Irish tunes, so why not learn them and play them?
4) It's a challenge. A lot of the tunes are fast and difficult to play. Fast, difficult tunes help me with my technique, and allow me to enjoy more the tunes I play at home.
5) There are more recordings of Irish tunes so the tunes are more accessible.
So I play Irish music because I enjoy it and my friends play it, but that's where it stops. I'm not Irish, so I don't feel any cultural or emotional connection with the music. I do *not* immerse myself in Irishness. Why would I? My great grandparents were Irish apparently, but so what?! Whoopee-doo for them. I'm not. I play the tunes and appreciate them for their own sake and enjoy my pints as I play.
The music from home that I grew up with, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether. I feel very different when I play it to when I play Irish music, and that difference is hard to describe, so I'm not even going to try.
So anyone who tries to ignore the differences between the music of Ireland/England/Scotland, and denies the deep-rooted cultural significance, emotional attachment and symbolism of each type of music, those people are missing something. That something may not be detrimental to their playing of the tunes, but they're still missing something.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Being a Irish-American (3 generations here) with a heavy dose of liberal guilt, I often wonder if by pursuing ITM I'm also self-selecting to hang out with other white people. You just don't meet a lot of people of Asian, Hispanic or African descent at Irish music festivals or Scottish Games (though you do run into folk from just about everywhere in the world in my neighborhood).
While Americans playing lacrosse may not be celebrating their Native American heritage (I believe the game began with the Iroquois, not South Americans), people who devote their spare time to learning Israeli folk dances, Capoeira, or Indian Ragas (in America at least) generally are getting in touch with their roots. So other Americans interested in ITM generally call themselves Irish by one stretch of the imagination or another.
But back to the original question of English peeps devoting their energies to ITM--is it wrong for a person of Germanic ancestry to become a Judo master? For a Spaniard to be an expert at Chinese cooking? Or a French person to become a world-famous expert in the Basque language?
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by pakooper
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I just found out my maternal grandfather (who no one was allowed to mention) may have been English. No one still wants to say exactly ... secrets and lies! Good ould church! So I may be a quarter English whatever that means. I've lived a quarter of my life in Spain so I reckon I'm a quarter Spainish too! In addition to IT I've been playing klezma for a few years now. So I'm hoping Grandad was jewish too .. Then I'll be the only jew in our klezma band.
I must admit we get lots of confused jews coming up to us after gigs wandering what the hell is going on.
There are never any questions asked about any one in the world wanting to play Country or Rock or whatever. The reason it's so uncomfortable for people to deal with the english playing IT is the history. It's still there, all that inherited guilt. like Germans playing Klezma.... Like Americans reading the koran.
Brendan Dunnestein
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Brendun
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
No, it's not wrong for a Spaniard to be an expert at Chinese cooking, but, let's face it, his recipe for Twice-cooked Pork isn't going to have been handed down from his mum, who in turn had it handed down over 15 generations of the family. His recipe might well be just as tasty as that of someone who has been immersed in the culture, but to say that they are the culturally the same is to ignore a strand of cultural continuity that is linked with identity, pride, childhood memories, respect for one's ancestors and heritage, all that sort of thing. People from places like America and Australia tend to overlook this stuff I think. People are too quick to say "but hey, we're all the same, I can do that too, and I'm as passionate about it as you, so it must mean the same to us both".
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Oh come on John J you're no fun anymore. Can't you say something that could be interpreted as racist so we can pounce on you again? That was great fun last time
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
When I was a biology student way back when, one of our teachers said, "The difference between plants and animals is that animals move around." Over the years I've extrapolated this concept to mean that humans are creatures with moveable roots. That means that if I choose to discover my Irish "roots", it doesn't matter all that much whether I have any in reality. I'm just interested in roots in general, in the way people lived in the world a couple (or more) of generations ago. Plus I love Irish music.
I may stop using the fake Irish accent though.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
What would we do without our roots? If we weren't interested in rooting, our bits and pieces would drop off to be sure.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
You think that's bad? I know a Belfast bodhran player who's been in London so long he's developed a Dublin accent. How weird is that? Or is it some sort of mistaken pretentiousness?
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Well, that depends. At one point I took some Chinese cooking lessons from a wonderful teacher (and a native of Taiwan), but my Hot and Sour Soup recipe (which was invented in the late 1990s when I was sick of no good Hot and Sour Soup in rural Virginia) is still significantly better than hers.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Yes. I'm sure there are Chinese people who can't cook at all. That's not the point Dave. The food in Taiwan isn't as nice as the rest of China anyway!
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I'm one of them. Brought up in South London of honest English stock. I'm told I'm a 16th or 32th O'Dea, but what does that mean? I started off playing English music and singigng in folk clubs from the early 70s, and graduated to ITM about 15 years ago.
1. I say 'graduated' because without a shadow of a doubt, ITM is infinitely more complex technically, more difficult to play, more musically intricate, generally faster (well, reeels), and above all, aesthetically beautiful in almost every department.
2. If the music is so delightful, that might just be saying something about the people, the nation, it springs from. So over the water I went, and found it to be true. I've visited Oz, States, Canada, and most of Europe, and I have not yet found any people I've met on travels abroad, collectively, so welcoming and endearing as most of those I've met in Ireland (although interestingly Poland comes a close second).
3. Traditional music in Ireland is at the centre of their society. RTE apart,(it doesn't feel to me that RTE embraces ITM) there are always tunes to be heard on the radio over there. But media aside, there is a whole generation of ordinary teenagers and young adults who have in the last decade or so, taken thier own traditional music to themselves and regenerated it with pleasure and pride. I get the feeling visiting Ennis these days that if a young man or woman doesn't play the music, they're somehow not at the centre of things. ITM is cool. The tradition doesn't need reviving, it's never been killed off.
It's the reverse of what happened/happens in England. Morris dancers are the butt of their own nation's humour. Ever wondered why some quite wierd people populate English folk clubs? Maybe it's the only place they can be tolerated, accepted even, in a social group. The English folk tradition seems to exist on the margins.
So that for me is probably the main reason I'm playing ITM as an Englishman. I feel like I'm at the centre of something mainstream, usually accepted and respected for the music I play, well or badly.
The music's beautiful, and the tunes continue to evolve dynamically and healthily. I'll stop now before I repeat myself.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by petemay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Firstly, lacrosse is definitely a *north* american sport, having originated with (and there is some historical debate over this) the Cherokee or Iroquois and spread to some other nearby tribes. East coast holla!
And on the main subject of this debate, I'm an Irish American (2nd generation, I guess - deends on how you figure it) and I have just as much of a cultural/spitirual/ancestral whatchamacallit connection to the music as any of my cousins do back on the auld sod. However, I agree that the music probably doesn't- really can't - have as much significance to people from other traditions, just like I, for instance, like and enjoy listening to and playing klezmer but don't have the symbolic and emotional attachment to it that some of my Ashkenazi friends do. While I don't argue that everyone has an equal right to enjoy and play the music, and that quite a few of them- probably most of them- will be better at it than I am, it won't have the same ultimate significance. It's just a socio-cultural reality.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by tualha04
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
When I was in Ireland this nasty guy I worked with kept accusing me of "trying to be Irish". It drove me nuts. Sometimes it was because I said something like "Ah,g'wan, ya mad ting" when, as a Canadian, I ought to have said "Take off, eh, hoser." Any colloquialisms I picked up were entirely unintentional, though, as was the growing lilt in my accent. (I noticed some friends from Limerick became more and more intelligible when they were living in Toronto, so I think it goes both ways.)
Anyway, there's nothing more insulting to me than someone claiming I'm trying to be something I'm not, or grasping at some kind of cultural heritage I don't have "roots" in. I could argue that, as a sixth generation Canadian with ancestors from Russia, Ireland, England, and god-knows-where else, I have a legitimate hereditary claim to whatever cultural tradition I choose to tap.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
'While I don't argue that everyone has an equal right to enjoy and play the music, and that quite a few of them- probably most of them- will be better at it than I am, it won't have the same ultimate significance. It's just a socio-cultural reality.'
Uh? - my brain hurts ....
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Well, when it comes right down to it, we're all African anyways - that is, the homo sapiens amongst us (certain company excepted).
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
What's even more interesting is that English people living in Austrailia are trying to play Irish music on an English concertina. Boggles the mind.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
A very good Irish style guitar player who's asian told me once, "I think Irish music should be played only by Irish people." I asked him if he intended giving it up then... he looked puzzled.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
It's not the people it's the music I have not one bit of Irish blood or English, Scottish, or Welsh for that matter I still play ITM and if you don't mind braging I'm not that bad. Saying only Irish people can play ITM is like saying only black people can play Jazz.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Jack it boggles my mind too.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Yeah, but can a blue man sing the whites?
Jim
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
My wife (Irish) goes every week to a set-dancing class near Wells in Somerset. Out of the 30 or so dancers there, she and one other person are the only Irish persons; the others are English. In the sessions I go to in Bristol there are very few Irish; in fact anyone with an Irish accent probably stands a good chance of being a visitor. Many of the set-dancers and musicians regularly go to Ireland for festivals and workshops (as we did in August). Nobody, least of all the Irish, has any problem with this.
Trevor
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I don't think this cultural fakery thing really has much to do with Irish music though. In (white) North American culture, becoming a musician can lead to various kinds of weirdness, as people try integrate all the baggage they've learned about how musicians behave into their lives. A lot of people seem to go through a phase after they've been playing for a while where they start wearing cloth caps and drinking a lot of Guinness and shouting "Up ya boya!" during sessions. Fortunately most of them grow out of it, and the rest take up the concertina.
There was a good magazine article a while ago about how in some circles, *being* a Musician is more important than actually playing music. He called these the "music is my bag" people. I figure that the Irish attitude toward music, which you could roughly summarize as "a normal part of life", is a good antidote to that kind of rubbish.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
"Up ya boya!"
hahaha
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I saw a lot of people up in Belfast dressed up like gangstas - Nikes, satiny jogging suits, trucker caps and gold chains. Seems to be a big thing. And wasn't Garth Brooks number one on the charts in Ireland during their big line dancing craze?
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
So if I want to pretend to be Irish, I should get me a jogging suit and take up line dancing, not ITM.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
And were they doing that thing with their hands, like they had invisible snot on them which they were flicking to get rid of it? How Celtic.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I don't know - I'm basing this on rumours. I never went to a line dance in Ireland, I was too busy pretending to be Irish. From what I hear, they took it seriously enough to squeeze into skin tight jeans and put on hats and boots...
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Hmm, Kerri, I can see why some people were a little irritated at a Canadian saying "Ah, g'wan, ya mad ting". There really is no need. That's not just picking up turns of phrase up by accident through exposure, it's making a concerted effort to come across as Irish, but probably just not quite managing it convincingly
Why did you want to do that? I think it's interesting and it relates to Bri's original question - maybe you can answer it for him.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Pete May says... "'graduated' because without a shadow of a doubt, ITM is infinitely more complex technically, more difficult to play, more musically intricate, generally faster (well, reeels), and above all, aesthetically beautiful in almost every department".
He obviously hasn't been exposed to the good stuff. Ah well, long may it stay underground, pure and untainted
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Gee- what about us filipinos???? I like to play my pipes and fiddle as much as anyone. And my daughter kinda speaks gaelic with the help of a college course.
Felino Og Bautista
Best time was some craic at the thirsty scholar in Cork talking to a native about irish music and he, talking about the blues and living in the south over a few (ok, more than a few) pints
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
PS- there are pictures of a tionol for pipers in Japan at the c&F uilleann pipe forum. Talk about crossing cultural boundries. NPU was even said to pitch in.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I did a Japan tour with Dale Russ and Junji Shirota once. The sushi was great, but imagine how much better it would be if they bothered to cook it.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Jack, Jack, its suppose to be undercooked like that. I saw Junji play with Paddy Keenan at Mcabes right after 9/11. Imagine flying with a UP set after that. Great concert. Junji even did a bit of gaelic, which made my head hurt.
Jim-unfortunately my time in Cork was limited- did go to Charlies on Sunday and saw Eoin O Riabhaigh play his pipes- spell binding. That's what my daughter said about Cork's accent- different from other places, much like California. and any place in Mississippi.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Never mind, Dow! I've had an English focus for 15 years, then the Irish for the same length of time. At my age, I'm fairly safe making the general comparisons, and I don't give a monkey's anyway! I love the simple, beautiful tunes as much as I do the complex ones. I'm very happy playing the 'good stuff' that I've found, with the good people I've found.
I don't quite understand your point, that you know of some 'good stuff' I haven't found yet. I rather resent (in a mild sort of way!) your implication that if I do find it, I am somehow going to 'taint' it.
What is this 'good stuff' you've got in Oz? Surely it's not the soaps you've exported here to GB, which seem to have tainted the under 30s with Oz upward inflections, question-like, at the end of every sentence, you know?
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by petemay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Thanks for the information on Lacrosse, I find myself to have been misinformed.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Pete he's only taking the pee I think.
Here's one for you, to continue what Kerri was saying earlier.
What do you call a Belfast girl in a white shell-suit?
The bride.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Oh the abuse is awful Bri I know, how dare I! And the false hypocritical smiley face at the end of my post too. Dear oh dear. It's so obvious I had only evil intent. How dare I abuse people like that so openly and unreservedly?! Especially people who have been playing 30+ years.. I ought to be locked up god dammit. Pure and untainted English music indeed. How dare I suggest that if an experienced Irish musician play English music then "my precious music" would end up tainted. It's so obvious I was being serious and deliberately malicious. And uncivil! Jeremy, do the world a favour and kick me off thesession.org right now before I cause some real damage!
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Egads. I'm mostly German, with a dollop of Polish, Danish, and French. No Irish blood I'm aware of. I've heard the Germans are quite fond of Irish trad, and many play it quite well.
We're down here in Florida. There are people from all over the planet here. Some of the best ITM musicians live in Florida, and I once played a session at the Florida Folk Festival under a wee, rainy tent that had four (4) Uillean pipers. They were pretty good, too!
There was a string earlier about Ian Carr, who I think is English. His material with Karen Tweed, who I think is also English, stands ITM on its ear.
What's really uncool is when ITM musicians who don't have a drop of Celtic blood beat up on the English for what they did to Ireland in the 1800s. It was the powdered wig guys who did it (or who made the decisions and wrote the checks), not the underclasses who have always loved a good tune.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Hey, there's lots of great English Folk music. Christy Moore spent enough time over there and sang many English folk songs. Many Irish musicians have included English tunes in their repertoire too.
I'm a Scotsman so everyone's my pal--especially on a Saturday night (whether in Sauchiehall Street or not) :-0)
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Okay there's no need to reinforce the stereotypes John J, bloody racist pig that you are
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Bri I just thought your thread started off too nicey nicey, just not like you at all. I think you're being a bit false, superficial and hypocritical actually, just like me. You should watch it or you might end up nuts. It sounds like you're actually sucking up to musicians who play English music and like giving them a pat on the back for being so strong-willed
Well you know what, I don't need support - I could give up playing Irish music tomorrow and go on to lead a perfectly happy life. I only play it so I can get some ideas for ornamentation to work into the music I *really* want to play, i.e. the pure, untainted underground English scene I mentioned earlier. The minute that hits the mainstream I'll be off looking for something else even cooler. Maybe I'll take up the Cornish pipes or something, ooh-arrr.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Yeah. Just wait until "Willies come hither" takes off at your local session.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Willies Come Hither..., now that I think about it, isn't that the tune Graham Norton was lilting while "riverdancing" on a Father Ted episode?
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
That has the potential to achieve cult status like "The Irish Waterman" - remember that one?
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Well, unlike Willies Come Hither, The Irish Washerwoman can still be found in the tunes database! Did it ever really exist?
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Aaargh it's gone! Its disappearance has made it all the more intriguing. I didn't even get to try it on my concertina because it's too late and I'd end up waking the neighbours. Speaking of which, I'm feeling rather somnolent. Time to end the Oz shift I think...
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
So my "Calling cry by the Ladies of the Night at the old Leith Docks" reference to the tune title will be gone too?
Ooops.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Haven't read all of the above but as someone who passes for full-on English I appreciate Bribanjo's sentiments.
Interestingly I have never experienced anything but (apparently, hehe) total acceptance from full-on Irish musicians in Ireland and other parts of the world. The very few unwelcoming comments - two or three maybe in nearly 30 years - came from nonmusicians.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Interesting comment, Bro. Steve. That's much the same with me.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Catch yerself on, fly man! Stick to the Jimmy Shand stuff; that's all you sweatys are good for.
*ducks for cover under kevlar-reinforced table*
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Jimmy Shand had a lot of great tunes-many self composed-if you only knew!
And I don't mean "The Bluebell Barndance either.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
And he played a lot of Irish tunes too, the auld rascal.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Michty me I thocht thon sang was cried a polka!
(Guilty of all crimes mentioned above)
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Bren
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Only slagging Danny my man! :¬)
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
That was for Dow's benefit, as you probably know.
Check out the tune section, if in doubt.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
What really blows my mind, as a recovering bluegrass/country/old-time string band player, is how popular our (USA) worst forms of country music are so popular in England, and to a lesser extent, in Ireland. Think of Slim Whitman, for example. Need we say any more?
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Country music is the "music of choice" in Ireland it seems. Yer man in the street there has no more interest and (probably) any more knowledge of Irish traditional music than their counterparts elsewhere.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I know what you mean Stevie, when I forget to turn off Clare fm after the trad show's over, and the next show comes on -- it scares me.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Don't talk to me about country music!
That Iris Dement never returns my emails. You'd think she'd jump at the chance to have the financial security that marrying a second-rate graphics designer could offer her.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
She's a very nervous girl--at least on stage, anyway. She's probably a bit wary of you.
Dolly Parton might be a better bet and she's a little nearer to your own age, I'd imagine.
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Jolene, Jolene..
No thanks pal!
It's Iris or no-one (I've told her)
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Actually I've only ever been asked why I play Irish music by non-musicians, echoing the trend mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't think people actually care as long as you enjoy the music and don't spoil it for everyone else. Have you ever had hassle being London-born like?
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Anyway, I can’t figure that Iris out at all. She kept complaining that I sent her ‘creepy emails’ and she said that if I didn’t stop sending her the ‘weird poems’ she’d take legal action. I told that if I knew she was going to be like that, I would never have bothered carving her name on my chest...
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Bri I don't blame you for being insecure. I mean, how disappointed your soft-consonanted-parents must have been when their little toddler started speaking Cockney and dropping his t's!
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
See? Not so nicey nicey now are you, sticking your tongue out at me like that
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Actually, y'all have some taste when it comes to American country music. Dolly Parton may be a monument to excess in many ways, but she's a serious musician and songwriter, and her backup bands are always awesome. Iris Dement's voice drives my wife nuts, but I'm fond of her too, and she's a genuine talent.
Another thread might be ITM musicians' reactions to the cross-cultural mixing of some of the best country musicians and songwriters of this side of the pond with some wonderful ITM and related musicians in Ireland, England, and Scotland. There was no doubt some money to made on ticket and CD sales from all that, but there was some pretty good music made as well. Was there any American trad that was played over there? (American old-time string band and country music from the 1930s-50s is frequently as overlooked by the average U.S. listener as ITM is overlooked by the average U.K./Irish listener.)
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
I like Dolly's music and have a few of her CDs. In fact, I enjoy a lot of "good" country music as well as the traditional variety.
I was only trying to fix Ottery up.
# Posted on September 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Iris sang on one of the Solas albums, and her mate John Prine had Dolores Keane on his album of duets. Stevie Earle had Iris singing with him, and writes songs which get sung in Irish sessions round here - as does Gillian Welch.
I'm happy to listen to any of these people - they play/write real music from the heart...
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Yeah, and Altan had Dolly Parton crooning a verse or two on Blue Angel... interesting.
Actually, the second ever session I joined in Ireland (Crotty's, Kilrush, 3 over-70s geezers, what the cheek of me, and I'm playing a piano accordion, too :/) had this really ancient weepy-eyed flute player, and after I'd played a couple of tunes, he leaned over to me and says: 'Well, you'll be Irish, then.'
'No, I'm English, I'm from Kent, in the South-east.'
'Ah, I see. Well, you'll have Irish family then.'
'No, I haven't, not that means anything.' (32nth an O'Dea maybe)
'Well, where did you get the music?'
'Mostly I play with friends in Engalnd...'
'Ah, so they'll be Irish then.'
'No, actually, they're English. Well, my best mate's parents are from Limerick, but he was born in England...'
'Dah. So how do you get the music then?'
Well, I listen to a lot of Cds, and then there's always the dots.'
'What do you mean, the dots?'
'You know, reading the music off a page, the dots. Music.'
'No, that's not the music, the music's what you play!'
And so on, we went in circles like that for a couple of minutes. He was so old, I reckon he's never done a tune from written music in all his days. I felt humble of course, and not confident, an upstart waiting to be politely cold-shouldered maybe, but not a bit of it. This was my lesson in national tolerance and acceptance. The old geezer on the contrary took to me with relish, and kept saying what a compliment it is to have a young Englishman with no Irish connections, and I'd bothered to learn the music. He was genuinely amazed, not taking the piss at all, we had a great few sets of tunes in the back room, and it made me feel even more humble, what a fine gent. And with one or two snotty exceptions, that's been the same general response wherever. The music the thing, not your passport.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by petemay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Eh, and thanks Bri for coming to my defence with that nasty Dow. He's such an eejit, and I'm useless in a fight.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by petemay
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
The sort of "interrogation" that Petemay underwent was very familiar.
I was born, brought up and educated in England and speak with an English accent. But in my case their curiosity rarely got to more than a couple of questions because as soon as they got a handle on where my parents were from, and discovered my name, that was it !
According to their reasoning, THAT was the reason I could play irish music.
Nothing to do with the hours of practice, learning tunes, etc. or whether I had encouragement at home (I didn`t !).
There`s this underlying assumption that if you`re Irish, or have strong Irish connections, you`ll automatically play Irish traditional music - and play it well.
And, as we know, nothing could be further from the truth !
But, as Petemay says, the questioning was always with the best of intentions and usually ended up with them complementing you on your playing.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Jim, you're a wag!
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Robert De Niro said today at the Venice Film Festival "I'm part Italian, part Dutch, part French, part German and part Irish, but I probably identify more with my Italian side. I'm honoured to be asked to be a citizen."
I don't know if this has any relevance at all
Probably not
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Not even a bit of Irish in them ?
Now, Jim Troy -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- FOUR counts. Do you confess?
# Posted on September 13th 2004 by Ottery