My whistle playing's coming along to the point where I am thinking of investing in an upgrade in the not too distant future. I have an Oak D, which I got lucky with because it has a pretty nice tone. Only sometimes in the upper register, not so nice. But I am planning to invest in a higher quality one, and wonder what people like playing these days? Some years back everyone had Copeland whistles, then the word was that he was ill and wasn't making them any more, but I think they are back now. What do you think?
get 2 fairy liquid bottles, empty toilet roll/kitchen roll cardboard, stick them all together with scellotape, make the holes with a big fat pencil...
No, seriously, give Colin Goldie a shout, his contact details are found on: http://www.overton.co.uk and http://www.overton.de. Seriosuly good whistles and tell Colin exactly what your requirements are. Hope this is of help.
While I haven't had much luck with Generations, I still swear by my Sweetone. I know lots of people here would never recommend them, and for good reason, I'm sure. But I bought mine for a measly $10 figuring it was calculated chance...and I truly love the bugger. No intonation problems at all, and the overall performance is excellent. I even like it better than my previous favorite Tony Dixon, at about twice the price. So I'm spending all that extra (?) dough on other instruments, like my new mandola, that you can't get anywhere nearly that cheaply.
I have a vote for Alba or Dixon Alba is higher end and costs a bit more. Ketida I prefer the Dixon to the Sweetone by a little but they are both excellent whistles.
Thanks for the replies, sounds like Burke's are pretty well regarded. But I am interested to try the Tweaked Generations also, been reading about those today. I wonder, does Generation mind the tweakage? I mean, do they know about it?
Are you serious? Forget about the Generations
(tweaked or not) if you're looking fora quality whistle.
Michael Burke's was my own choice, and I never regreted it. Excellent and not very expensive.
Generations are just fine -- listen the Mary Bergin's recording if you doubt me. It's more about the player, and the player's pocket book, when you get those fancy-shmansy ones. Whistles are tricky to make sound right, most people are trying to play too loud and it makes the whistle screech in the upper register. From what I've seen, a lot of the fancy expensive whistles are designed to compensate for poor technique. I'm sure it makes more of a difference if you're talking about low whistles, but the Generations are fine for standard pitch..
You tell 'em Jack!
A whistle should sound like a whistle. Generations have a fine sound, just search for one that's in tune(!) For a more airy sound, the Clarke's Meg whistle is nice.
Well, I own several whistles. My favorite session whistle is the Water Weasle, by Glenn Schultz. I also own wood whistles by Schultz and O'Riordan, and composites by Burke and others. But I always come back to the Water Weasle. You might try the whistle comparison chart at www.chiffandfipple.com. And, of you're going to play with others...buy something tunable.
Sorry if this is a repeat but the first time I sent a reply it didn't show up --- I have a very naughty computer! I too have several whistles. My farovites in order of preference are Feadog, Generation (has to be a good one which can be hard to find) and Burke. I have two problems with the Burke: 1)it seems to clog often - this is something I can live with and 2) high A and B have for me a very small tolerance for correct amount or force of air. This is most pronounced for me going from the low register to High A or B, the transition does not go smoothly.
After the entry page above, scroll down to "the chiff & fipple whistle guides". There is a review of various brands there, including (infrequent, but useful) updates on some of the comings and goings of production problems for various manufacturers of the "low end" whistles.
The "Engineering Department" has sections on
"tweaking inexpensive whistles How to make cheap whistles sound better, or ruin them trying"
I had mixed success myself in tweaking mine, but I think there was a fix mentioned for the problem I had with my Generation C. I just need to take the time to work on it a bit more. I like the idea of being able to tune up and fix problems, since it sounds like the cheaper whistles do have variability. I'm also feeling like I'm getting close to wanting a better whistle, but am not ready to spend a lot of money on it. I'm going to do a little more tweaking first, maybe getting another $10 whistle to experiment with.
My hat's off to Chiff and Fipple. It's loaded with info and is the one web site that always has me breaking into laughter at something.
On Chiff & Fipple you'll get so much advice that you won't ever be able to make a decision...
But I quite like the idea of buying half a dozen Generations and tweaking them until one sounds like you want it to.
"On Chiff & Fipple you'll get so much advice that you won't ever be able to make a decision..."
... quite a bit of it dispensed by people whose opinons, if you heard them play, you might be disinclined to set much store by. But even advice from people who play well should be taken with caution - playing characteristics of these fancy whistles vary enormously and what suits Jim may not suit Joan.
My advice would be a) don't buy anything costing more than $20 that you haven't tried. If you must order something expensive that you haven't played, make sure the maker has a no-questions-asked refund policy so that you can return it if it doesn't suit you. And don't be shy to return it.
b) forget about fancy whistles, stick with your Oak and learn to play really well on it. Whistlers long to be taken seriously and I suspect many of them imagine that a serious-looking instrument will help. I don't think it will, myself - the best way to be taken half-seriously (about the most you can aim for) is to play very well.
I find most of the expensive whistles sort of OK but there are very few of them that I really like. I tend to play Generations tweaked by myself or by others nearly all the time. Sorry to pour cold water on your aspirations Paddy but a lot of people, myself included, have spent years looking for the ideal whistle and realized we had it all along with a plastic-headed cheapie.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I did have a look at Fipp and Chiffle, there was loads of great info and opinion to be found there.
And Brother Steve, there is a lot of truth in what you say. Micho Russel didn't need no foofy-assed whistle, nor Mary Bergin, and if I am not mistaken Breda Smyth plays a Generation. I actually like the Generation sound, and I like my Oak. I will keep at it regardless, but was liking some of the upgrades I've been hearing people play. Maybe I'll think about it a while longer.
My 2 cents: I like the Michael Burke whistles as well, but I too have problems with the low to high transitions, and it's not as comfortable for me to play as it might be - though it sounds fabulous played by others. I myself am a huge fan of John Sindt whistles, they're a decent price and so much fun to play. I think the wait is ~ 10 months right now, but worth it.
Did you say Fipp and Chiffle? Sorry just thought it was kinda funny my two favorite whistles are Albas (especcially the Q1) and Dixons (not a lot of Chiff best for playing airs/slower tunes).
I pretty much have one of each, but none are as valuable as the book by Grey Larsen on how to play the flute and tin whistle. There's the place to spend your money and your attention. A Generation whistle is just fine. WB
My favourite whistle at the moment, of the dozens I've laying around, is my O'Brien-tweaked feadog. I've been playing it for about a year now, including a couple of tracks on a CD and have nothing but praise for it. It has a positively shimmering upper register.
I have a bunch of generations in various keys for compatibility, but for D it's either my O'Brien or my clarkes (The normal clarkes with the wood fipple-plug). (I always modify my clarkes' windways a bit)
I honestly recommend my whistle and wouldn't part with it for all the copeland Ds in existence.
A note is that I don't particularly 'like' generations, but that I own and play many of them anyway.
Also, as a point of interest I bought Larsen's book myself, but wasn't particularly impressed. It wasn't a bad book certainly, especially for someone who knows nothing about whistles/flutes, but I was expecting a lot more for the enthusiastic and effusive praise it got. Also, I got two copies of the same CD in the back rather than discs 1 and 2.
I bought the Grey Larsen book, and I think it's quite good. My only trouble with it is that I learned to read music years ago, then I learned to read drum music, which is like regular music upside down, then I stopped altogether. I was advised that you didn't need to read music fluently to get value from the book...but I think if you don't read music yer kinda screwed. I can sorta get through the notation, but not as fast as I'd like...what with my quasi-dyslexic tendencies and all.
Well, perhaps that's part of the problem (I learned to read music poorly.. effectively, but poorly-- transcribing the music I was reading straight to the notes I was playing on baritone horn; Effectively, this means I don't read music)-- But I found that he overanalyzed things that I felt were best left to a player to pick up themselves. I can't imagine trying to 'learn' certain ornaments from a book, by playing them slow and speeding them up. I was also displeased with some of his pennywhistle recommendations. Let me dig up the book to find some references..
On page 62, he expresses disdain for 'inexpensive' whistles.
He then proceeds through -18 pages- of 'how to hold and blow' the 'tin whistle'.
I find many objectionable points therein, and yet he makes it sound as though you must follow all of his procedures to be able to 'properly' play a 'tin whistle'.
He continues this approach throughout the book, providing what seems to be a 'solid method' (from which you should not deviate) with which I don't agree. For specific example, depending on my mood I like to play with the whistle in the corner of my mouth, or my teeth resting on the fipple, or any other number of considerations for a more appropriate tone to what I'm doing. Another specific example is his recommendation to clear whistles by covering the hole in the fipple and blowing forcibly. This has a deleterious effect over time on the sharpness of the fipple and, while slight, is just not good for the whistle. The peril of launched whistles aside, I find that tapping it on my leg or just giving it a vigorous shake gets rid of any moisture that's accumulated.
Yes, these are nitpicks, and little to do with the playing. But continuing forward, I find I have the same nitpicks with his playing and tone shading advice, and I do find that he does have a disdain for 'non-reading' types that carries itself through.
However, I DO like the guy, and I DO like the book.. to an extent.. so perhaps I misphrased. I think for a certain audience it is a fantastic learning reference, especially for those who are just 'straight playing' whistles or flutes currently with no concept of tone shading, ornamentation, and little 'feel' for the music. I also think it's awesome that the book is out there, and so cheap. I was very excited to get my copy, and after hearing all the praise about it, my expectations were very high. However, I feel that there is little benefit to me, as a player, from Larsen's approach in this book, and perhaps it is too quickly bandied about as a 'be all/end all' of whistle and flute playing in many cases.
In other news, I find I always post to the negative side of things, due mainly to the many negative impressions I accrue from the 'session etiquitte' and 'traditional or death' types which, perhaps, acknowledge the trait in themselves sufficiently with good humor to rest my cause.
I'll try to be more positive in the future. :> I don't mean to dump all over Larsen and his book as much as my first message (And indeed the first part of my second) on the subject seemed. I suppose it caught me in a moment of transient irritation.
I did't take offense with you not being delighted with the book, no worries. Different opinions is what this place is all about. I meant being at a disadvantage not reading music in regard to the book. In life, I prefer learning by ear, and I don't think reading music is the ideal way to learn ITM. I went to the book in hopes that I could cure any bad habits I had developed in learning to play whistle by ear. Sure enough, when breaking down the exercises, I found some things I had been unconsciously doing all this time.
I don't think the book is unflawed, it does read a bit like a software manual. But overall, I think I am getting a lot out of it.
I recently needed to upgrade my high-D whistle for a tour; I went for the gusto and got myself a Copeland on e-bay... I have since sold the blighter. Some like'em and I'll say it had a big rich tone but above the high G the back pressure required to produce a sound was quite considerable and the tone in the highest register was painfully shrieky.
I'm onto the Burke phenom now and play comfortably up to the 3rd octave G (not that I use it much except for the occasional ornament but I do use the 3rd D and E).
My low D is a Cillian O'Brien and the rest are a widely scattered and self-tweaked collection of cheaper brands...
Happy hunting!
whistle advice
whistle advice
Hi there:
My whistle playing's coming along to the point where I am thinking of investing in an upgrade in the not too distant future. I have an Oak D, which I got lucky with because it has a pretty nice tone. Only sometimes in the upper register, not so nice. But I am planning to invest in a higher quality one, and wonder what people like playing these days? Some years back everyone had Copeland whistles, then the word was that he was ill and wasn't making them any more, but I think they are back now. What do you think?
Thank you!
# Posted on September 6th 2004 by swearbox
Re: whistle advice
get 2 fairy liquid bottles, empty toilet roll/kitchen roll cardboard, stick them all together with scellotape, make the holes with a big fat pencil...
No, seriously, give Colin Goldie a shout, his contact details are found on: http://www.overton.co.uk and http://www.overton.de. Seriosuly good whistles and tell Colin exactly what your requirements are. Hope this is of help.
# Posted on September 6th 2004 by Murrough
Re: whistle advice
What's wrong with a Generation whistle? I still prefer mine to any of those other more pricey ones.
# Posted on September 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: whistle advice
I highly recommend Jerry Freeman's tweaked Generation (US$40), and Michael Burke's whistles as well.
# Posted on September 6th 2004 by mconners
Re: whistle advice
While I haven't had much luck with Generations, I still swear by my Sweetone. I know lots of people here would never recommend them, and for good reason, I'm sure. But I bought mine for a measly $10 figuring it was calculated chance...and I truly love the bugger. No intonation problems at all, and the overall performance is excellent. I even like it better than my previous favorite Tony Dixon, at about twice the price. So I'm spending all that extra (?) dough on other instruments, like my new mandola, that you can't get anywhere nearly that cheaply.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by ketida
Re: whistle advice
I vote for Michael Burke's.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by markwilson
Re: whistle advice
I have a vote for Alba or Dixon Alba is higher end and costs a bit more. Ketida I prefer the Dixon to the Sweetone by a little but they are both excellent whistles.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: whistle advice
i also vote for michael burke's. amazing whistles. worth the price.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by daiv
Re: whistle advice
Thanks for the replies, sounds like Burke's are pretty well regarded. But I am interested to try the Tweaked Generations also, been reading about those today. I wonder, does Generation mind the tweakage? I mean, do they know about it?
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by swearbox
Re: whistle advice
Are you serious? Forget about the Generations
(tweaked or not) if you're looking fora quality whistle.
Michael Burke's was my own choice, and I never regreted it. Excellent and not very expensive.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Toni Ribas
Re: whistle advice
Generations are just fine -- listen the Mary Bergin's recording if you doubt me. It's more about the player, and the player's pocket book, when you get those fancy-shmansy ones. Whistles are tricky to make sound right, most people are trying to play too loud and it makes the whistle screech in the upper register. From what I've seen, a lot of the fancy expensive whistles are designed to compensate for poor technique. I'm sure it makes more of a difference if you're talking about low whistles, but the Generations are fine for standard pitch..
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: whistle advice
You tell 'em Jack!
A whistle should sound like a whistle. Generations have a fine sound, just search for one that's in tune(!) For a more airy sound, the Clarke's Meg whistle is nice.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Ottery
Re: whistle advice
Well, I own several whistles. My favorite session whistle is the Water Weasle, by Glenn Schultz. I also own wood whistles by Schultz and O'Riordan, and composites by Burke and others. But I always come back to the Water Weasle. You might try the whistle comparison chart at www.chiffandfipple.com. And, of you're going to play with others...buy something tunable.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by dulcie22
Re: whistle advice
Sorry if this is a repeat but the first time I sent a reply it didn't show up --- I have a very naughty computer! I too have several whistles. My farovites in order of preference are Feadog, Generation (has to be a good one which can be hard to find) and Burke. I have two problems with the Burke: 1)it seems to clog often - this is something I can live with and 2) high A and B have for me a very small tolerance for correct amount or force of air. This is most pronounced for me going from the low register to High A or B, the transition does not go smoothly.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by ConnemaraPony
Re: whistle advice
on chiffandfipple you will get a lot more replys try it.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: whistle advice
Have you discoverd the Chiff and Fipple website yet?
http://www.chiffandfipple.com/
After the entry page above, scroll down to "the chiff & fipple whistle guides". There is a review of various brands there, including (infrequent, but useful) updates on some of the comings and goings of production problems for various manufacturers of the "low end" whistles.
The "Engineering Department" has sections on
"tweaking inexpensive whistles How to make cheap whistles sound better, or ruin them trying"
I had mixed success myself in tweaking mine, but I think there was a fix mentioned for the problem I had with my Generation C. I just need to take the time to work on it a bit more. I like the idea of being able to tune up and fix problems, since it sounds like the cheaper whistles do have variability. I'm also feeling like I'm getting close to wanting a better whistle, but am not ready to spend a lot of money on it. I'm going to do a little more tweaking first, maybe getting another $10 whistle to experiment with.
My hat's off to Chiff and Fipple. It's loaded with info and is the one web site that always has me breaking into laughter at something.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Half Fast Fiddler
Re: whistle advice
On Chiff & Fipple you'll get so much advice that you won't ever be able to make a decision...
But I quite like the idea of buying half a dozen Generations and tweaking them until one sounds like you want it to.
# Posted on September 7th 2004 by Ottery
Re: whistle advice
"On Chiff & Fipple you'll get so much advice that you won't ever be able to make a decision..."
... quite a bit of it dispensed by people whose opinons, if you heard them play, you might be disinclined to set much store by. But even advice from people who play well should be taken with caution - playing characteristics of these fancy whistles vary enormously and what suits Jim may not suit Joan.
My advice would be a) don't buy anything costing more than $20 that you haven't tried. If you must order something expensive that you haven't played, make sure the maker has a no-questions-asked refund policy so that you can return it if it doesn't suit you. And don't be shy to return it.
b) forget about fancy whistles, stick with your Oak and learn to play really well on it. Whistlers long to be taken seriously and I suspect many of them imagine that a serious-looking instrument will help. I don't think it will, myself - the best way to be taken half-seriously (about the most you can aim for) is to play very well.
I find most of the expensive whistles sort of OK but there are very few of them that I really like. I tend to play Generations tweaked by myself or by others nearly all the time. Sorry to pour cold water on your aspirations Paddy but a lot of people, myself included, have spent years looking for the ideal whistle and realized we had it all along with a plastic-headed cheapie.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Jeeves Tones
Re: whistle advice
Thanks everyone for the advice. I did have a look at Fipp and Chiffle, there was loads of great info and opinion to be found there.
And Brother Steve, there is a lot of truth in what you say. Micho Russel didn't need no foofy-assed whistle, nor Mary Bergin, and if I am not mistaken Breda Smyth plays a Generation. I actually like the Generation sound, and I like my Oak. I will keep at it regardless, but was liking some of the upgrades I've been hearing people play. Maybe I'll think about it a while longer.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by swearbox
Whistle makers
My 2 cents: I like the Michael Burke whistles as well, but I too have problems with the low to high transitions, and it's not as comfortable for me to play as it might be - though it sounds fabulous played by others.
I myself am a huge fan of John Sindt whistles, they're a decent price and so much fun to play. I think the wait is ~ 10 months right now, but worth it.
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Trinil
Re: whistle advice
Did you say Fipp and Chiffle? Sorry just thought it was kinda funny my two favorite whistles are Albas (especcially the Q1) and Dixons (not a lot of Chiff best for playing airs/slower tunes).
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: whistle advice
yes, I said Fipp and Chiffle. Not cause of the dyslexia, I was just messin around.
Did you know the nipple of a baby bottle in Ireland is called the Dodo? Not sure of the spelling, nor why.
Words are fun!
# Posted on September 8th 2004 by swearbox
Re: whistle advice
Yes they are, Fipp and Chiffle that is really funny. I like to say Lysdexia for fun (Lysdexics Un tie).
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by Unseen122
Re: whistle advice
I pretty much have one of each, but none are as valuable as the book by Grey Larsen on how to play the flute and tin whistle. There's the place to spend your money and your attention. A Generation whistle is just fine. WB
# Posted on September 9th 2004 by windybaer
Re: whistle advice
My favourite whistle at the moment, of the dozens I've laying around, is my O'Brien-tweaked feadog. I've been playing it for about a year now, including a couple of tracks on a CD and have nothing but praise for it. It has a positively shimmering upper register.
I have a bunch of generations in various keys for compatibility, but for D it's either my O'Brien or my clarkes (The normal clarkes with the wood fipple-plug). (I always modify my clarkes' windways a bit)
I honestly recommend my whistle and wouldn't part with it for all the copeland Ds in existence.
A note is that I don't particularly 'like' generations, but that I own and play many of them anyway.
-Kysh
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Kysh
Re: whistle advice
Also, as a point of interest I bought Larsen's book myself, but wasn't particularly impressed. It wasn't a bad book certainly, especially for someone who knows nothing about whistles/flutes, but I was expecting a lot more for the enthusiastic and effusive praise it got. Also, I got two copies of the same CD in the back rather than discs 1 and 2.
-Kysh
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Kysh
Re: whistle advice
Ha!
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Ottery
Re: whistle advice
Ha? :>
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Kysh
Re: whistle advice
I bought the Grey Larsen book, and I think it's quite good. My only trouble with it is that I learned to read music years ago, then I learned to read drum music, which is like regular music upside down, then I stopped altogether. I was advised that you didn't need to read music fluently to get value from the book...but I think if you don't read music yer kinda screwed. I can sorta get through the notation, but not as fast as I'd like...what with my quasi-dyslexic tendencies and all.
oh, to have been reared in Clare.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by swearbox
Re: whistle advice
Well, perhaps that's part of the problem (I learned to read music poorly.. effectively, but poorly-- transcribing the music I was reading straight to the notes I was playing on baritone horn; Effectively, this means I don't read music)-- But I found that he overanalyzed things that I felt were best left to a player to pick up themselves. I can't imagine trying to 'learn' certain ornaments from a book, by playing them slow and speeding them up. I was also displeased with some of his pennywhistle recommendations. Let me dig up the book to find some references..
On page 62, he expresses disdain for 'inexpensive' whistles.
He then proceeds through -18 pages- of 'how to hold and blow' the 'tin whistle'.
I find many objectionable points therein, and yet he makes it sound as though you must follow all of his procedures to be able to 'properly' play a 'tin whistle'.
He continues this approach throughout the book, providing what seems to be a 'solid method' (from which you should not deviate) with which I don't agree. For specific example, depending on my mood I like to play with the whistle in the corner of my mouth, or my teeth resting on the fipple, or any other number of considerations for a more appropriate tone to what I'm doing. Another specific example is his recommendation to clear whistles by covering the hole in the fipple and blowing forcibly. This has a deleterious effect over time on the sharpness of the fipple and, while slight, is just not good for the whistle. The peril of launched whistles aside, I find that tapping it on my leg or just giving it a vigorous shake gets rid of any moisture that's accumulated.
Yes, these are nitpicks, and little to do with the playing. But continuing forward, I find I have the same nitpicks with his playing and tone shading advice, and I do find that he does have a disdain for 'non-reading' types that carries itself through.
However, I DO like the guy, and I DO like the book.. to an extent.. so perhaps I misphrased. I think for a certain audience it is a fantastic learning reference, especially for those who are just 'straight playing' whistles or flutes currently with no concept of tone shading, ornamentation, and little 'feel' for the music. I also think it's awesome that the book is out there, and so cheap. I was very excited to get my copy, and after hearing all the praise about it, my expectations were very high. However, I feel that there is little benefit to me, as a player, from Larsen's approach in this book, and perhaps it is too quickly bandied about as a 'be all/end all' of whistle and flute playing in many cases.
Do I explain myself better?
-Kysh
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Kysh
Re: whistle advice
In other news, I find I always post to the negative side of things, due mainly to the many negative impressions I accrue from the 'session etiquitte' and 'traditional or death' types which, perhaps, acknowledge the trait in themselves sufficiently with good humor to rest my cause.
I'll try to be more positive in the future. :> I don't mean to dump all over Larsen and his book as much as my first message (And indeed the first part of my second) on the subject seemed. I suppose it caught me in a moment of transient irritation.
-Kysh
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by Kysh
Re: whistle advice
I did't take offense with you not being delighted with the book, no worries. Different opinions is what this place is all about. I meant being at a disadvantage not reading music in regard to the book. In life, I prefer learning by ear, and I don't think reading music is the ideal way to learn ITM. I went to the book in hopes that I could cure any bad habits I had developed in learning to play whistle by ear. Sure enough, when breaking down the exercises, I found some things I had been unconsciously doing all this time.
I don't think the book is unflawed, it does read a bit like a software manual. But overall, I think I am getting a lot out of it.
# Posted on September 11th 2004 by swearbox
You've prob'ly heard enough but:
I recently needed to upgrade my high-D whistle for a tour; I went for the gusto and got myself a Copeland on e-bay... I have since sold the blighter. Some like'em and I'll say it had a big rich tone but above the high G the back pressure required to produce a sound was quite considerable and the tone in the highest register was painfully shrieky.
I'm onto the Burke phenom now and play comfortably up to the 3rd octave G (not that I use it much except for the occasional ornament but I do use the 3rd D and E).
My low D is a Cillian O'Brien and the rest are a widely scattered and self-tweaked collection of cheaper brands...
Happy hunting!
# Posted on September 19th 2004 by bestcraic