Greetings. My name is Brian and I am a frequent reader of the thesession.org. This site is a phenomenal resource - and, as such, I am hoping you might be able to answer some of my questions regarding playing for dancers.
Some people that I play music with have daughters that are Irish dancers. A few days ago, while their daughters were practicing, we offered to play some tunes for them to dance to. It went well, but I was confused by some of the terminology. When we asked them what they wanted us to play, they said, "Play a treble reel." I don't know what a "treble (or triple?) reel" is. I'm guessing that it is *not* a type of tune, but rather a type of dance step, perhaps, and that any reel will do?
Additionally, are there any metronome-heads out there who can tell me what typical cadences are for reels, single jigs, jigs, slip jigs, hornpipes, and polkas? I'm guessing "typical" varies from dancer to dancer, but are there general guidelines?
A treble reel is just a dancers term for a normal reel.....
the difference is with the shoes they wear..
A treble reel is danced in hard-shoes / also at times know as treble shoes...
The normal reel is danced in light shoes or pomps...
That is the only difference.
If you check out the sleeve covers of a lot of the Feis music, you will probable see the metronome time by the tune......
Feis music is very regulated, and all tunes are kept within a set of speeds...
i.e. a treble jig / hard jig might be from 72 to 76........
Then it gets complicated, as there will be various standards within the individual dances.
A rule of thumb (or big toe in this case !!!) is, the more advanced the dance in hard shoes, the slower the music, as the dance movements will be more intricate.
Hope this helps a bit.....
I will see if I can hunt down the speeds that An Coimisiun and An Comhgail use for Feis music and will post......
Here is a break-down of some tunes and tempos..
(From Olive Hurley's Dance CD's)
Reels. Glasgow Reel/Charlie Fleming’s. Tempo. 113
Slip Jigs. Tailors Wedding/The Butterfly. Tempo. 113
Jigs. Nights of St.Patrick/Tongs by the Fire. Tempo. 73
Hornpipes. The Rights of Man/Kitty’s Wedding. Tempo. 113
Reels. Rakes of Mallow/Rattlin`Bog/Captain Byng. Tempo. 121
Light Gigs. Shandon Bells/Nova Scotia/Cherish the Lady. Tempo. 121
Slip Gigs. Kid on the Mountain/Hardiman the Fiddler. Tempo. 120
Single Jigs. Anonymous/An Bristin Mire/is it the Priest you want. Tempo. 122
Treble Jigs. The Connachtman`s Rambles/A Visit to Ireland. Tempo. 91
Hornpipes. Belfast Hornpipes/Murphy`s Hornpipes. Tempo. 76
Reels. Glasgow Reel/Gene`s Reel. Tempo. 116
Reels. The Congress/The Union Tempo. 114
Reels. Cooley`s Reel/Lad O`Beirnes/Trip to Durrow/Cooleys Reel. Tempo. 112
Slip Jigs. The Foxhunter/Denver the Dancer/Drops of Brandy. Tempo. 113
Treble Jigs. Coopers and Brass/Eavesdropper. Tempo. 76
Hornpipes. The Liverpool Hornpipe/Greencastle Hornpipe. Tempo. 112
Reels. A selection of Reels. Tempo. 112
SET DANCES
Three Sea Captains. Tempo. 69
Planxty Drury. Tempo. 69
Hurry the Jug. Tempo. 72
Blackthorn Stick. Tempo. 69
Drunken Gauger. Tempo. 69
Orange Rogue. Tempo. 72
Miss Browns Fancy. Tempo. 72
Hurling Boys. Tempo. 72
Humours of Bandon. Tempo.69
Rub the Bag. Tempo. 69
Downfalls of Paris. Tempo. 76
Ace/Deuceof Pipering. Tempo. 76
The Hunt. Tempo. 80
Rambling Rake. Tempo. 80
Rodney`s Glory. Tempo. 96
Kilkenny Races. Tempo. 88
King of the Fairies. Tempo. 104
Plankxty Davis. Tempo. 100
White Blanket. Tempo. 96
Madam Bonaparte. Tempo. 100
Lodge Road. Tempo. 76
Piper thro`the Meadow Straying. Tempo. 76
Youghal Harbour. Tempo. 84
Bonapartes Retreat. Tempo. 76
Blackbird. Tempo. 76
St. Patricks Day. Tempo. 92
Job of Journeywork. Tempo. 76
Jockey to the Fair. Tempo. 92
Garden of the Daisies. Tempo. 76
From Kevin Warrens and Colm Keoghs CD for 100% Comhghail CD
Category Dance Tempo
Beginners Reel (122)
Beginners Light Jig/Figure Jig (116)
Beginners Slip Jig(128)
Beginners Single Jig(132
Beginners Treble Jig(88)
Beginners Hornpipe(138)
Intermediate/PreOpen Reel(116)
Intermediate/Pre Open Slip Jig(116)
Intermediate /PreOpen Single Jig(118)
Intermediate/PreOpen Jig(76)
Intermediate/PreOpen Hornpipe(116)
Traditional Set Dance-St. Patrick's Day(90)
Traditional SetDance-Blackbird(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Job of Journey Work(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Garden of Daisies(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Three Sea Captains(85)
Traditional Set Dance-King of the Fairies(133)
Open Reel(113)
Open Slip Jig(113)
Open Single Jig(116)
Open Jig(73)
Open Hornpipe(113)
Brian - we have the Olive Hurley CDs that Eoino mentioned. I can share them with you tonight. Great examples Eoino. They're classics in the dance studio. Thanks.
I have come across some slight variations in tempi from another source. Granted, there really isn't much difference in a metronome marking of 122 to 123, but in the case of the speed for the King of the Fairies, the difference is significant. Go figure.
From Kevin Joyce's "Back to the Start" CD, here are some types of tunes with speeds set according to this quote from the catalog:
"The speeds of the tunes follow the guidelines of An Coimisiun Le Rinci Gaelacha ... "
And from Kevin Joyce's "The Final Round" here are some metronome markings for the Traditional Set Dances:
The Blackbird (73) • St. Patrick's Day (92) • The Job of Journeywork (138) • The Garden of Daisies (138) • The Three Sea Captains (92) • The Jockey to the Fair (88) • The King of the Fairies (120) • The White Blanket (125)
To avoid confusion, when I play at a feis I usually ask either the dancer (if they're an advanced dancer) or the judge what speed they would like. One or the other will usually have an idea of what is appropriate most of the time.
When you get to set dances (e.g., Planxty Drury,) there will be different tempos for different dancers. Feis musicians use a metronome for these, to avoid disputes and possible violence.
When a dancer says "treble" or "double", they generally mean that the dance is danced in their hardshoes, because the move is called a "treble" or a "double" or a "shuffle" or a "rally" or what have you. The reel as danced in hardshoes is also called tipping reels or heavy reels. Roughly about 113 is what's usually danced for competition specials for the reel (the treble reel is not on the normal curriculum for the feisianna, at least under the auspices of IDTANA), but it'll depend on the difficulty of the step. The harder the step, the slower the music.
In competition, the reel in softshoes (or pumps or pomps or ghillies, all the same thing) is danced 120 (beginners) to 112 (championship or - sometimes - the littlers under 6).
For the jig, a "light jig" is one danced in the softshoes. It's danced at 114 to 120 or so. Again -- the higher the level and therefore the harder the step, the slower the music goes. The light jig is not usually danced by championship dancers.
For the slip jig, only danced in softshoes, the tempo is again between 112-120, depending on difficulty (harder to easier). (In championship level dancing, the dancer must compete in either the reel or the slip jig when recalled, and usually that depends on the year at the Oireachtai and higher, they alternate.)
For the single jig, also only danced in softshoes, the tempo depends on whether the dancers are dancing traditional steps (easier) or more modern ones, but again, 112-120 is the most usual. The single is not usually danced by championship dancers.
We do not compete to polkas, but you can use them while playing for reels if you like.
For the double or heavy or treble or whatever jig, danced in hardshoes, the tempo is significantly slower than the softshoe dances. For championship level dancers, it can go as slow as about 69-75. For beginners, it can go as fast as 85-90 or so.
The hornpipe will also feel dreadfully slow to you. (It can help to choose tunes with more intricate and melodically detailed lines, so you don't expire of boredom.) The prizewinners/champions may need it as slow as 68/116 or so, the beginners as fast as 70/140, though that fast a speed is actually pretty rare.
The set dances will be much slower than you're accustomed to playing them, most probably.
There are the five traditional set dances, which are danced pretty much the same all over the world, and they are The Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day (the one usually first learned, so you get a lot of requests for it from the beginners), Job of Journeywork, Garden of Daisies and The White Blanket. (I believe there's two others in Ireland, Europe, and elsewhere outside of IDTANA, but I can't remember what they are off hand.) The dancers start dancing traditional sets in Novice (IDTANA). (After Prelim, the dancers rarely do their traditional sets, opting for non-traditional sets instead.)
It is likely that you will be asked to play the sets as for a feis, so you would play 3 As and 1 B. (The first A for the 8 bar intro, the second and third As for the step, and the B for the right foot of the set.) However, some schools do require their students to learn both the right and left of the set, and if that's so then they'll want 2 Bs. Ask.
Also, sometimes you'll get a teacher who wants to do more than one of the steps for St. Patrick's Day. They'll probably tell you if so, since that's unusual these days, but then you'll need to repeat the tune for as many times as they want it.
The non-traditional sets are choreographed especially for the school or for a specific dancer by the TCRG of that dancer. The dancer will have an extremely specific time for their set and will give it to you if that's so and if they discover you know their set dance. When you begin playing, watch the dancer. If they're experienced, they'll make a little waving motion of their hand on your side if they want it faster or slower.
At most feisianna, someone announces the set dance and the tempo for the judge and musician before the champions dance (the champion tells the announcer what it is before taking their place on stage) -- often this is your first indication of what dance and tempo is needed.
If you are performing with the dancers and you must end and begin with the dancers, you must remember that the dancers need an 8 bar intro (one time through the A, usually), and then 16 bars for each step, if there's no wait in between dancers. So if you have four dancers each doing 2 solo steps with no wait inbetween (which is a classic stepabout), you'll play either:
A AABB AABB AABB AABB
OR
AABB AABB AABB AABB A
If they want an 8 bar wait between each of the four dancers, you must play:
A AABB AABB AABB AABB AAB
or
AABB AABB AABB AABB AABB
The most important thing when playing for dancers is keeping a good, rocksteady tempo. There should be firm emphasis on the first beats on the part of your accompanists. Less-experienced dancers often have trouble dancing to live music, so if you see a small dancer struggling to stay on time out on stage during a performance, start thumping out that downbeat and maybe the third beat as well, it'll help them a lot.
So why do so many dancers wait for 16 bars before starting? Or is that just here in Helena? This afternoon we played for a step dancing school and agreed ahead of time to give them an 8 bar lead in. Every time, they waited through 16 bars before starting up. So by the end of the gig, I quit doing A AABB and would just launch into the tune AABB AABB, etc.
I could blame this on living in the sticks, but they're being taught by Trinity School instructors (one was there today).
We're going to do some non-performing ceilis with the school just for fun, but I'm also looking at those as an opportunity to get the dancers and musicians on the same page, so we can eventually do gigs together without so much confusion.
Er...well, I *did* start as a dancer originally, you know, and I teach for my school... ;)
Will, I have no idea why your dancers let 16 go by up there. At a feisianna, you start after 8 if you're the first dancer (there's no wait between dancers at a feis after the first dancers start), and insofar as I know, everyone else always does wait only 8 no matter where they are. I'd say talk to one of the instructors about it directly next time you can manage it.
Good on you, Brian. I recently asked a former student of mine who's into Irish dance for some samples of recorded music they dance to. The music on the discs she gave me would kill a brown dog. I've only just come off the tablets myself. If your dancers get subjected to stuff that's anything like this, you'll be doing them a big favour.
I'm now inspired to look out for the Olive Hurley CDs mentioned above - are they the "industry standard"? Are there any other recommended sets?
Nah. No such thing as an industry standard. The best dancers' practice cd, in my opinion, is One More Time -- Brendan Mulvihill, Billy McComiskey and Zan McLeod.
I agree with Zina. One More Time is an excellent CD for a couple of reasons - has tunes at varying (and identified!) speeds and the arrangments and muscianship are so good a player can actually listen to it for fun. I learn most tunes from dance CDs and it's a treat for me, as a fiddler, to listen to something other than 2 hours of straight unadultered accordian. I also find it frustrating that many dance CDs identify the tunes as "set of light jigs", "set of reels", with no mention of the most widely used titles. Makes it hard to share what I learn or look for sheet music if there's a sticky part I need to look up. The One More Time CD gives names to most tunes. Very helpful.
this is where I found a good selection of CDs.
Olive Hurleys CDs were a life saver for me when I was teaching in Texas.
Kevin Warren and Colm Keogh have formed their own company, and have CDs out for An Comhghail, CRN and a generic all rounder for all dancers.
Zina,
Fair play to your descriptions above......
on traditional sets, The King of the Fairies and The Three Sea Captains are also now included as trads.
I am studying for the ADCRG and am learning the trad King of the Fairies... YEUCH,,,, that dance makes no sense!!! (-;
jimtroy: Crystal clear! I will be delighted to buy the pints, because that will mean that I am back in Ireland! One day, good sir, you and I will meet and the porter (and tunes) will flow...
Everyone else: Wow! Thanks a million for all the informative responses!!!
Oh God, Eoin, The Three Sea Captains, or as the father of our TCRG (Ariel Bennett, who maybe you know?) once called it when she was a girl learning it as her non-traditional set, The Three Million Sea Captains. I once learned the King of the Fairies, but have entirely forgotten it now. Good luck on your ADCRG, wow, you've got my respect on that one, it'd really help my school out if I took the TCRG but I can't bring myself to do it, mainly because I'd have to work my butt off on the sets (I started as an adult, so never got to championship), can't even imagine taking the ADCRG!
Eoin, I dance and teach (beginners through intermediate) for Heritage Irish - Ariel is Molly's oldest daughter (in Texas, she danced under Colm Ó Maoiléidigh, who I'm assuming you know -- after moving to Colorado, she danced under Linanne Wick before starting her own school with Molly), and Molly played the drum in St. James' Gate, including when they won at World's.
Molly and Ariel split their schools about five years in, Molly now has the Bennett School. We now have, get this, EIGHT schools of stepdancing in the Colorado area. All seem to be doing quite well. Amazing, huh?
God, the thought of learning (well, okay, dancing) all the sets needed for the TCRG makes me feel faint, Eoin -- I'm fecking 43!
Will you be coming out this way to adjudicate once you've got your ADCRG, Eoin? You're always welcome to come stay with us if you like, so you can get some tunes in.
LOL -- Jimmy Troy, you're hilarious! Watching you two slag each other is worth the price of almost any admission, or at least as long as one of you is buying.
Small world indeed, Eoin, how much more funny can it get? Wait 'til I tell Ariel! Dunno, I actually don't mind staying teaching the beginners and intermediates, it's kind of fun, really, it's just that it would make it so much easier on Ariel if I got the TCRG, as she's our only one at the moment, and we have over 250 dancers, so that's a lot of ground for her to cover by herself. Just not sure it'd be worth the fees and all every year, you know?
I love Reagan Wick to death, he was playing piano for my first ever feis years ago and was sooo nice to me when I was incredibly nervous, I've adored him ever since.
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers -16 bars
Think I know why your dancers waited for 16 bars - at my school, we were taught to just listen for the first eight, and listen for the start of the second eight to start before doing the whole start count ritual-thingy. Maybe the folks in Helena do the same thing? It makes it easier for inexperienced dancers to avoid starting in the middle of a part and getting confused.
i.e. AAABB
where the 1st A is to also help the musician!!!
(-:
That's why dancers should not learn music!!
(All they know is the A part of 1000's of tunes) cos they pick the rhythm up in that first A, and don't even hear the rest of the tune over their puffin and pantin!!!
Gotta watch out for that Kingie dude, he's got a nasty sense of humor...
I assume you're not going to let Jim drink before he gets the paint out?
One of our students who also takes other kinds of dance decided to do her non-traditional set for a dance competition one of her other schools was doing, under the "folk" category. I can't remember which set she was doing, but it was one of the ones with an incredibly long A part. The judge was recording comments that were to be given to each dancer after the competition. The dancer brought us her comments, laughing her head off, because the judge kept saying, "Oh, teacher, this intro is just too long; teacher, make sure she does something sooner in her routine, she's just standing there!"
I wondered if they were waiting to count the second 8, but yesterday I watched, and they were counting all 16 before starting to dance. It's just weird to me to have them start on the B part. I've also tried giving them the little two-beat stomp (two hard beats on the beginning note) before starting the 8-count A, so they get the tempo right off and know they need to start counting. Nothing works. At a ceili last spring, they asked us for a reel. I asked for a tempo and they said 110. We gave them the usual start, and played Sally Gardens (one they're familiar with on their cds). We played the damn thing 10 times while they stood there, in line, counting the beat. When nothing happened, we finally stopped. Then one of them walked over and said, "Now could we have a _reel_ please."
Give me a recommendation for a good feis out in Colorado.
My daughter is in novice right now and is doing well. Three firsts and three seconds in the last feis in New Orleans. She also got a second in the traditional music competition playing concertina.
My two sisters still live in Colorado, we were out there visiting from Alabama several weeks ago. We spent a week in Estes Park...turns out there was a feis right there the next week and we did not know it.
We want to go to a feis with a music competition. Some of the events down here substitute a soda bread competition for music..
The Estes Park feis is held the second weekend of September every year during the Long's Peak Scottish/Irish Festival -- there's all kinds of stuff there as well as the feis, there's a large pipe band competition, a dog show, jousting, re-enactors, a jillion vendors of all types, and bands everywhere, it's a pretty fun one. (There might even be a soda bread contest, for all I know!) It's one of my favorite feisianna, but be sure to bring warm clothes to wear between comps, it can get pretty cold up there that time of year.
This year Matt Heaton will be playing with Halali, and I'll definitely be up there for that one. If you come, we'll set up a session!
Is there a particular time of year you want to come out? We have feisianna pretty much every couple of months or so.
Z
We've been to seven Feis (what is the plural for Feis) since January. We are probably going to do one a month during the school year.
Alex was in Advanced Beginner in January. At the Atlanta Feis she placed first in her traditional dance out of 60 some odd novice and prizewinner combined. So she is doing pretty well and we want to keep zinging along.
Ted...
check out Anne's Place..
do a search for it in some engine.....
She is a teacher in Ohio, and has a good informative site....
Zena...
All I need is to take a really "fab" "hip" "really together Man" musician with me to Colarado..., ahem, er sort of like Jimmy Troy!!!
Need only pay in beer and "Uisce Beatha!
Jimmy, u up for a trip to Colorado?.....!!
16 bar intro??? Brilliant, just brilliant.... that would suffice for a trip to the bar between dances, and an auld set or 2 in between!!
Needless to say you know (or know of) Karl Drake?
He hosts a few Feiseanna in the Area,,. especially Georgia and Florida.....
Is it Marie Anne McSwaim McGrath who teaches in New Orleans?
I have plane tickets saying I went there 5 or 6 times, but don't remember!!!!!!!!!!!
(Gotta LUV N'Awlins!)
Bob, here's a list of the feisianna I can remember offhand:
May, Feile Denver, McTeggart School
June, Pikes Peak Feis, St. Brendan School
July, Colorado Irish Festival Feis, McTeggart
Sept, Longs Peak Feis,
Nov, Denver Fall Feis, McTeggart
Feb, Colorado Winterfeis, Wick School
Zena....
If you see Molly....
Tell her I said hello.....
Tell the daughters that the last memory of them is in a mobile home when I visited,,,!!!
many moons ago... I believe their house was just built! 1990 ish.......... wow!
You better do the TCRG!!!
( and never mind Jimmy's guff.... best he is doing right now is a session in Ballyferitor!)
As previously said...... Gimme Feakle any day!
Will do, Eoin -- our school had a ceili and potluck today as a sendoff for a teacher's assistant of ours, who is going off to school. I mentioned meeting you here to Ariel, and she thought it was great! Sends her regards and told us lots of stories -- I guess she was your dancer when you did your TCRG out in San Diego, and you had to teach her your hornpipe?
Zena..............
NEVER mentio that hornpipe or SLIPJIG again!
(When I said hard for the TCRG...
Well er um!
I forgot steps I did for 20+ years....
Sorta like going to a session and forgettin Maid nehind the Pub... er... Hotel... em, hang on... It'll come to me..... Oh Yeah....
B+B.... The Maid behind the B+B.. that's it.)
Memories!
LOL -- ha, yes sir, Eoin sir, never mentioning it again, sir (although she didn't mention a story about the slipjig!)...although I suppose it'll make you a rather sympathetic ADCRG than some can be, I'm sure. ;) (Stories like this is why I'll probably never take the TCRG! *smirk*)
Advice sought for playing for dancers
Advice sought for playing for dancers
Greetings. My name is Brian and I am a frequent reader of the thesession.org. This site is a phenomenal resource - and, as such, I am hoping you might be able to answer some of my questions regarding playing for dancers.
Some people that I play music with have daughters that are Irish dancers. A few days ago, while their daughters were practicing, we offered to play some tunes for them to dance to. It went well, but I was confused by some of the terminology. When we asked them what they wanted us to play, they said, "Play a treble reel." I don't know what a "treble (or triple?) reel" is. I'm guessing that it is *not* a type of tune, but rather a type of dance step, perhaps, and that any reel will do?
Additionally, are there any metronome-heads out there who can tell me what typical cadences are for reels, single jigs, jigs, slip jigs, hornpipes, and polkas? I'm guessing "typical" varies from dancer to dancer, but are there general guidelines?
Thanks all!
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by browndog
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
A treble reel is just a dancers term for a normal reel.....
the difference is with the shoes they wear..
A treble reel is danced in hard-shoes / also at times know as treble shoes...
The normal reel is danced in light shoes or pomps...
That is the only difference.
If you check out the sleeve covers of a lot of the Feis music, you will probable see the metronome time by the tune......
Feis music is very regulated, and all tunes are kept within a set of speeds...
i.e. a treble jig / hard jig might be from 72 to 76........
Then it gets complicated, as there will be various standards within the individual dances.
A rule of thumb (or big toe in this case !!!) is, the more advanced the dance in hard shoes, the slower the music, as the dance movements will be more intricate.
Hope this helps a bit.....
I will see if I can hunt down the speeds that An Coimisiun and An Comhgail use for Feis music and will post......
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Tunes like the Low Reel, or anything with a good punch in it would do...
God knows, haven't kids danced all too successfully to "That" set of tunes we were forced into in Vienna!!!
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Here is a break-down of some tunes and tempos..
(From Olive Hurley's Dance CD's)
Reels. Glasgow Reel/Charlie Fleming’s. Tempo. 113
Slip Jigs. Tailors Wedding/The Butterfly. Tempo. 113
Jigs. Nights of St.Patrick/Tongs by the Fire. Tempo. 73
Hornpipes. The Rights of Man/Kitty’s Wedding. Tempo. 113
Reels. Rakes of Mallow/Rattlin`Bog/Captain Byng. Tempo. 121
Light Gigs. Shandon Bells/Nova Scotia/Cherish the Lady. Tempo. 121
Slip Gigs. Kid on the Mountain/Hardiman the Fiddler. Tempo. 120
Single Jigs. Anonymous/An Bristin Mire/is it the Priest you want. Tempo. 122
Treble Jigs. The Connachtman`s Rambles/A Visit to Ireland. Tempo. 91
Hornpipes. Belfast Hornpipes/Murphy`s Hornpipes. Tempo. 76
Reels. Glasgow Reel/Gene`s Reel. Tempo. 116
Reels. The Congress/The Union Tempo. 114
Reels. Cooley`s Reel/Lad O`Beirnes/Trip to Durrow/Cooleys Reel. Tempo. 112
Slip Jigs. The Foxhunter/Denver the Dancer/Drops of Brandy. Tempo. 113
Treble Jigs. Coopers and Brass/Eavesdropper. Tempo. 76
Hornpipes. The Liverpool Hornpipe/Greencastle Hornpipe. Tempo. 112
Reels. A selection of Reels. Tempo. 112
SET DANCES
Three Sea Captains. Tempo. 69
Planxty Drury. Tempo. 69
Hurry the Jug. Tempo. 72
Blackthorn Stick. Tempo. 69
Drunken Gauger. Tempo. 69
Orange Rogue. Tempo. 72
Miss Browns Fancy. Tempo. 72
Hurling Boys. Tempo. 72
Humours of Bandon. Tempo.69
Rub the Bag. Tempo. 69
Downfalls of Paris. Tempo. 76
Ace/Deuceof Pipering. Tempo. 76
The Hunt. Tempo. 80
Rambling Rake. Tempo. 80
Rodney`s Glory. Tempo. 96
Kilkenny Races. Tempo. 88
King of the Fairies. Tempo. 104
Plankxty Davis. Tempo. 100
White Blanket. Tempo. 96
Madam Bonaparte. Tempo. 100
Lodge Road. Tempo. 76
Piper thro`the Meadow Straying. Tempo. 76
Youghal Harbour. Tempo. 84
Bonapartes Retreat. Tempo. 76
Blackbird. Tempo. 76
St. Patricks Day. Tempo. 92
Job of Journeywork. Tempo. 76
Jockey to the Fair. Tempo. 92
Garden of the Daisies. Tempo. 76
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
From Kevin Warrens and Colm Keoghs CD for 100% Comhghail CD
Category Dance Tempo
Beginners Reel (122)
Beginners Light Jig/Figure Jig (116)
Beginners Slip Jig(128)
Beginners Single Jig(132
Beginners Treble Jig(88)
Beginners Hornpipe(138)
Intermediate/PreOpen Reel(116)
Intermediate/Pre Open Slip Jig(116)
Intermediate /PreOpen Single Jig(118)
Intermediate/PreOpen Jig(76)
Intermediate/PreOpen Hornpipe(116)
Traditional Set Dance-St. Patrick's Day(90)
Traditional SetDance-Blackbird(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Job of Journey Work(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Garden of Daisies(142)
Traditional Set Dance-Three Sea Captains(85)
Traditional Set Dance-King of the Fairies(133)
Open Reel(113)
Open Slip Jig(113)
Open Single Jig(116)
Open Jig(73)
Open Hornpipe(113)
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Brian - we have the Olive Hurley CDs that Eoino mentioned. I can share them with you tonight. Great examples Eoino. They're classics in the dance studio. Thanks.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
I have come across some slight variations in tempi from another source. Granted, there really isn't much difference in a metronome marking of 122 to 123, but in the case of the speed for the King of the Fairies, the difference is significant. Go figure.
From Kevin Joyce's "Back to the Start" CD, here are some types of tunes with speeds set according to this quote from the catalog:
"The speeds of the tunes follow the guidelines of An Coimisiun Le Rinci Gaelacha ... "
Reels(113) • Slip Jigs(113) • Treble Jigs(73) • Hornpipes(113) • Beginner Reels(123) • Light Jigs(115) • Beginner Slip Jigs(122) • Single Jigs(120) • Beginner Treble Jigs(92) • Beginner Hornpipes(72)
And from Kevin Joyce's "The Final Round" here are some metronome markings for the Traditional Set Dances:
The Blackbird (73) • St. Patrick's Day (92) • The Job of Journeywork (138) • The Garden of Daisies (138) • The Three Sea Captains (92) • The Jockey to the Fair (88) • The King of the Fairies (120) • The White Blanket (125)
To avoid confusion, when I play at a feis I usually ask either the dancer (if they're an advanced dancer) or the judge what speed they would like. One or the other will usually have an idea of what is appropriate most of the time.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
When you get to set dances (e.g., Planxty Drury,) there will be different tempos for different dancers. Feis musicians use a metronome for these, to avoid disputes and possible violence.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by grego
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
When a dancer says "treble" or "double", they generally mean that the dance is danced in their hardshoes, because the move is called a "treble" or a "double" or a "shuffle" or a "rally" or what have you. The reel as danced in hardshoes is also called tipping reels or heavy reels. Roughly about 113 is what's usually danced for competition specials for the reel (the treble reel is not on the normal curriculum for the feisianna, at least under the auspices of IDTANA), but it'll depend on the difficulty of the step. The harder the step, the slower the music.
In competition, the reel in softshoes (or pumps or pomps or ghillies, all the same thing) is danced 120 (beginners) to 112 (championship or - sometimes - the littlers under 6).
For the jig, a "light jig" is one danced in the softshoes. It's danced at 114 to 120 or so. Again -- the higher the level and therefore the harder the step, the slower the music goes. The light jig is not usually danced by championship dancers.
For the slip jig, only danced in softshoes, the tempo is again between 112-120, depending on difficulty (harder to easier). (In championship level dancing, the dancer must compete in either the reel or the slip jig when recalled, and usually that depends on the year at the Oireachtai and higher, they alternate.)
For the single jig, also only danced in softshoes, the tempo depends on whether the dancers are dancing traditional steps (easier) or more modern ones, but again, 112-120 is the most usual. The single is not usually danced by championship dancers.
We do not compete to polkas, but you can use them while playing for reels if you like.
For the double or heavy or treble or whatever jig, danced in hardshoes, the tempo is significantly slower than the softshoe dances. For championship level dancers, it can go as slow as about 69-75. For beginners, it can go as fast as 85-90 or so.
The hornpipe will also feel dreadfully slow to you. (It can help to choose tunes with more intricate and melodically detailed lines, so you don't expire of boredom.) The prizewinners/champions may need it as slow as 68/116 or so, the beginners as fast as 70/140, though that fast a speed is actually pretty rare.
The set dances will be much slower than you're accustomed to playing them, most probably.
There are the five traditional set dances, which are danced pretty much the same all over the world, and they are The Blackbird, St. Patrick's Day (the one usually first learned, so you get a lot of requests for it from the beginners), Job of Journeywork, Garden of Daisies and The White Blanket. (I believe there's two others in Ireland, Europe, and elsewhere outside of IDTANA, but I can't remember what they are off hand.) The dancers start dancing traditional sets in Novice (IDTANA). (After Prelim, the dancers rarely do their traditional sets, opting for non-traditional sets instead.)
It is likely that you will be asked to play the sets as for a feis, so you would play 3 As and 1 B. (The first A for the 8 bar intro, the second and third As for the step, and the B for the right foot of the set.) However, some schools do require their students to learn both the right and left of the set, and if that's so then they'll want 2 Bs. Ask.
Also, sometimes you'll get a teacher who wants to do more than one of the steps for St. Patrick's Day. They'll probably tell you if so, since that's unusual these days, but then you'll need to repeat the tune for as many times as they want it.
The non-traditional sets are choreographed especially for the school or for a specific dancer by the TCRG of that dancer. The dancer will have an extremely specific time for their set and will give it to you if that's so and if they discover you know their set dance. When you begin playing, watch the dancer. If they're experienced, they'll make a little waving motion of their hand on your side if they want it faster or slower.
At most feisianna, someone announces the set dance and the tempo for the judge and musician before the champions dance (the champion tells the announcer what it is before taking their place on stage) -- often this is your first indication of what dance and tempo is needed.
If you are performing with the dancers and you must end and begin with the dancers, you must remember that the dancers need an 8 bar intro (one time through the A, usually), and then 16 bars for each step, if there's no wait in between dancers. So if you have four dancers each doing 2 solo steps with no wait inbetween (which is a classic stepabout), you'll play either:
A AABB AABB AABB AABB
OR
AABB AABB AABB AABB A
If they want an 8 bar wait between each of the four dancers, you must play:
A AABB AABB AABB AABB AAB
or
AABB AABB AABB AABB AABB
The most important thing when playing for dancers is keeping a good, rocksteady tempo. There should be firm emphasis on the first beats on the part of your accompanists. Less-experienced dancers often have trouble dancing to live music, so if you see a small dancer struggling to stay on time out on stage during a performance, start thumping out that downbeat and maybe the third beat as well, it'll help them a lot.
Have fun, HTH, it's great to play for dancers!
Zina
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zina
That is the best explanation I have ever heard.
BTW, I read one of your comments regarding sessions in Fort Collins.
I was playing at Avogadros Number as far back as 1972. It was mainly BG then and I'll bet a dollar it is today.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by bt
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
So why do so many dancers wait for 16 bars before starting? Or is that just here in Helena? This afternoon we played for a step dancing school and agreed ahead of time to give them an 8 bar lead in. Every time, they waited through 16 bars before starting up. So by the end of the gig, I quit doing A AABB and would just launch into the tune AABB AABB, etc.
I could blame this on living in the sticks, but they're being taught by Trinity School instructors (one was there today).
We're going to do some non-performing ceilis with the school just for fun, but I'm also looking at those as an opportunity to get the dancers and musicians on the same page, so we can eventually do gigs together without so much confusion.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Wow, Zina Lee, fair play to you !
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by BegF
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Er...well, I *did* start as a dancer originally, you know, and I teach for my school... ;)
Will, I have no idea why your dancers let 16 go by up there. At a feisianna, you start after 8 if you're the first dancer (there's no wait between dancers at a feis after the first dancers start), and insofar as I know, everyone else always does wait only 8 no matter where they are. I'd say talk to one of the instructors about it directly next time you can manage it.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Good on you, Brian. I recently asked a former student of mine who's into Irish dance for some samples of recorded music they dance to. The music on the discs she gave me would kill a brown dog. I've only just come off the tablets myself. If your dancers get subjected to stuff that's anything like this, you'll be doing them a big favour.
I'm now inspired to look out for the Olive Hurley CDs mentioned above - are they the "industry standard"? Are there any other recommended sets?
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Tish
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Nah. No such thing as an industry standard. The best dancers' practice cd, in my opinion, is One More Time -- Brendan Mulvihill, Billy McComiskey and Zan McLeod.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
I agree with Zina. One More Time is an excellent CD for a couple of reasons - has tunes at varying (and identified!) speeds and the arrangments and muscianship are so good a player can actually listen to it for fun. I learn most tunes from dance CDs and it's a treat for me, as a fiddler, to listen to something other than 2 hours of straight unadultered accordian. I also find it frustrating that many dance CDs identify the tunes as "set of light jigs", "set of reels", with no mention of the most widely used titles. Makes it hard to share what I learn or look for sheet music if there's a sticky part I need to look up. The One More Time CD gives names to most tunes. Very helpful.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
http://www.inovarex.com/Merchant/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ainm&Category_Code=IDV
this is where I found a good selection of CDs.
Olive Hurleys CDs were a life saver for me when I was teaching in Texas.
Kevin Warren and Colm Keogh have formed their own company, and have CDs out for An Comhghail, CRN and a generic all rounder for all dancers.
Zina,
Fair play to your descriptions above......
on traditional sets, The King of the Fairies and The Three Sea Captains are also now included as trads.
I am studying for the ADCRG and am learning the trad King of the Fairies... YEUCH,,,, that dance makes no sense!!! (-;
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
jimtroy: Crystal clear! I will be delighted to buy the pints, because that will mean that I am back in Ireland! One day, good sir, you and I will meet and the porter (and tunes) will flow...
Everyone else: Wow! Thanks a million for all the informative responses!!!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by browndog
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
There were some dancers from Colorado at the New Orleans Feis last weekend. McTeggart School?
I bought the "One More Time" cd at one of the vendor tables. We listened to it all the way back to Alabama
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by bt
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Oh God, Eoin, The Three Sea Captains, or as the father of our TCRG (Ariel Bennett, who maybe you know?) once called it when she was a girl learning it as her non-traditional set, The Three Million Sea Captains. I once learned the King of the Fairies, but have entirely forgotten it now. Good luck on your ADCRG, wow, you've got my respect on that one, it'd really help my school out if I took the TCRG but I can't bring myself to do it, mainly because I'd have to work my butt off on the sets (I started as an adult, so never got to championship), can't even imagine taking the ADCRG!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Wouldn't surprise me if it was McTeggart, Bob! Might have been Wick, maybe.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena,
Any relation to Molly?
Played with (could I be right in saying) St. James'Gate in San Antonio before moving to Colorado?
You should do the TCRG... hard, but a great buzz when done!!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena...
what school are you with?
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Eoin, I dance and teach (beginners through intermediate) for Heritage Irish - Ariel is Molly's oldest daughter (in Texas, she danced under Colm Ó Maoiléidigh, who I'm assuming you know -- after moving to Colorado, she danced under Linanne Wick before starting her own school with Molly), and Molly played the drum in St. James' Gate, including when they won at World's.
Molly and Ariel split their schools about five years in, Molly now has the Bennett School. We now have, get this, EIGHT schools of stepdancing in the Colorado area. All seem to be doing quite well. Amazing, huh?
God, the thought of learning (well, okay, dancing) all the sets needed for the TCRG makes me feel faint, Eoin -- I'm fecking 43!
Will you be coming out this way to adjudicate once you've got your ADCRG, Eoin? You're always welcome to come stay with us if you like, so you can get some tunes in.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena...
Molly did the teachers with me in LA.....
(and she was older then 43 then!!! whoops!!)
Colm is my brother...........
I played many a tune and danced many a dance with all the St. James Bands... hehehe, you know what I mean!!!
I know Linnane a long time, and Reagan too...
small bloody world this....
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
LOL -- Jimmy Troy, you're hilarious! Watching you two slag each other is worth the price of almost any admission, or at least as long as one of you is buying.
Small world indeed, Eoin, how much more funny can it get? Wait 'til I tell Ariel! Dunno, I actually don't mind staying teaching the beginners and intermediates, it's kind of fun, really, it's just that it would make it so much easier on Ariel if I got the TCRG, as she's our only one at the moment, and we have over 250 dancers, so that's a lot of ground for her to cover by herself. Just not sure it'd be worth the fees and all every year, you know?
I love Reagan Wick to death, he was playing piano for my first ever feis years ago and was sooo nice to me when I was incredibly nervous, I've adored him ever since.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers -16 bars
Think I know why your dancers waited for 16 bars - at my school, we were taught to just listen for the first eight, and listen for the start of the second eight to start before doing the whole start count ritual-thingy. Maybe the folks in Helena do the same thing? It makes it easier for inexperienced dancers to avoid starting in the middle of a part and getting confused.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by tualha04
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena...
how bout you and me relearn King of the Fairies on Jimmys shiny head???
And him gonna paint me mudders house!!!!!
(pressure of the ADCRG!!)
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Normally the musician would repeat the first A.
i.e. AAABB
where the 1st A is to also help the musician!!!
(-:
That's why dancers should not learn music!!
(All they know is the A part of 1000's of tunes) cos they pick the rhythm up in that first A, and don't even hear the rest of the tune over their puffin and pantin!!!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Gotta watch out for that Kingie dude, he's got a nasty sense of humor...
I assume you're not going to let Jim drink before he gets the paint out?
One of our students who also takes other kinds of dance decided to do her non-traditional set for a dance competition one of her other schools was doing, under the "folk" category. I can't remember which set she was doing, but it was one of the ones with an incredibly long A part. The judge was recording comments that were to be given to each dancer after the competition. The dancer brought us her comments, laughing her head off, because the judge kept saying, "Oh, teacher, this intro is just too long; teacher, make sure she does something sooner in her routine, she's just standing there!"
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Eoin, how about you and Colm coming out to Colorado to give some workshops and master classes? Bet we could net you enough cash to make it worth it!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
I wondered if they were waiting to count the second 8, but yesterday I watched, and they were counting all 16 before starting to dance. It's just weird to me to have them start on the B part. I've also tried giving them the little two-beat stomp (two hard beats on the beginning note) before starting the 8-count A, so they get the tempo right off and know they need to start counting. Nothing works. At a ceili last spring, they asked us for a reel. I asked for a tempo and they said 110. We gave them the usual start, and played Sally Gardens (one they're familiar with on their cds). We played the damn thing 10 times while they stood there, in line, counting the beat. When nothing happened, we finally stopped. Then one of them walked over and said, "Now could we have a _reel_ please."
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Wahl, things are a bit diff'rent up your way, aren't they, Harmon? *grin*
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Um. 110? For a reel? What were they doing, sleep walking?
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Well, now that I've thought about it, Will, I suppose you could play them an A and a B as an intro!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zina,
Give me a recommendation for a good feis out in Colorado.
My daughter is in novice right now and is doing well. Three firsts and three seconds in the last feis in New Orleans. She also got a second in the traditional music competition playing concertina.
My two sisters still live in Colorado, we were out there visiting from Alabama several weeks ago. We spent a week in Estes Park...turns out there was a feis right there the next week and we did not know it.
We want to go to a feis with a music competition. Some of the events down here substitute a soda bread competition for music..
A session would be nice as well.
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by bt
Bob
The Estes Park feis is held the second weekend of September every year during the Long's Peak Scottish/Irish Festival -- there's all kinds of stuff there as well as the feis, there's a large pipe band competition, a dog show, jousting, re-enactors, a jillion vendors of all types, and bands everywhere, it's a pretty fun one. (There might even be a soda bread contest, for all I know!) It's one of my favorite feisianna, but be sure to bring warm clothes to wear between comps, it can get pretty cold up there that time of year.
This year Matt Heaton will be playing with Halali, and I'll definitely be up there for that one. If you come, we'll set up a session!
Is there a particular time of year you want to come out? We have feisianna pretty much every couple of months or so.
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
I just know they were waiting for something in 6/13 or 5/8 or v/q, like what Lunasa gave 'em last year.
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Will CPT
Colorado Feis
Z
We've been to seven Feis (what is the plural for Feis) since January. We are probably going to do one a month during the school year.
Alex was in Advanced Beginner in January. At the Atlanta Feis she placed first in her traditional dance out of 60 some odd novice and prizewinner combined. So she is doing pretty well and we want to keep zinging along.
Anything good in the winter? We'll go skiing too.
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by bt
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Ted...
check out Anne's Place..
do a search for it in some engine.....
She is a teacher in Ohio, and has a good informative site....
Zena...
All I need is to take a really "fab" "hip" "really together Man" musician with me to Colarado..., ahem, er sort of like Jimmy Troy!!!
Need only pay in beer and "Uisce Beatha!
Jimmy, u up for a trip to Colorado?.....!!
16 bar intro??? Brilliant, just brilliant.... that would suffice for a trip to the bar between dances, and an auld set or 2 in between!!
Needless to say you know (or know of) Karl Drake?
He hosts a few Feiseanna in the Area,,. especially Georgia and Florida.....
Is it Marie Anne McSwaim McGrath who teaches in New Orleans?
I have plane tickets saying I went there 5 or 6 times, but don't remember!!!!!!!!!!!
(Gotta LUV N'Awlins!)
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Ted...
http://www.geocities.com/aer_mcr/irdance/
this is the URL for Anne's place
Good luck to your daughter.........
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Bob, here's a list of the feisianna I can remember offhand:
May, Feile Denver, McTeggart School
June, Pikes Peak Feis, St. Brendan School
July, Colorado Irish Festival Feis, McTeggart
Sept, Longs Peak Feis,
Nov, Denver Fall Feis, McTeggart
Feb, Colorado Winterfeis, Wick School
You can always take a look at http://www.northamericanfeiscommission.org/schedule2004.asp for more feisianna listings. Sounds like Alex is going great guns!
Alexa (the Bennett's younger daughter) says hello, Eoin, we taught class today, and she was amazed that I'd "met" you here.
# Posted on August 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena....
If you see Molly....
Tell her I said hello.....
Tell the daughters that the last memory of them is in a mobile home when I visited,,,!!!
many moons ago... I believe their house was just built! 1990 ish.......... wow!
You better do the TCRG!!!
( and never mind Jimmy's guff.... best he is doing right now is a session in Ballyferitor!)
As previously said...... Gimme Feakle any day!
# Posted on August 15th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Will do, Eoin -- our school had a ceili and potluck today as a sendoff for a teacher's assistant of ours, who is going off to school. I mentioned meeting you here to Ariel, and she thought it was great! Sends her regards and told us lots of stories -- I guess she was your dancer when you did your TCRG out in San Diego, and you had to teach her your hornpipe?
# Posted on August 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
feiseanna is the plural for feis
# Posted on August 16th 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Zena..............
NEVER mentio that hornpipe or SLIPJIG again!
(When I said hard for the TCRG...
Well er um!
I forgot steps I did for 20+ years....
Sorta like going to a session and forgettin Maid nehind the Pub... er... Hotel... em, hang on... It'll come to me..... Oh Yeah....
B+B.... The Maid behind the B+B.. that's it.)
Memories!
# Posted on August 16th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
LOL -- ha, yes sir, Eoin sir, never mentioning it again, sir (although she didn't mention a story about the slipjig!)...although I suppose it'll make you a rather sympathetic ADCRG than some can be, I'm sure. ;) (Stories like this is why I'll probably never take the TCRG! *smirk*)
# Posted on August 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Smirk ur "donkey off" Shrek!
too full too be iconprenhehsilleibbielataciouc!
get Jinny too tha workshop.... wih me!
# Posted on August 17th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Advice sought for playing for dancers
Here's another great resource from someone who has a lot of experience playing for ITM dancers:
http://www.members.cox.net/eskin/dancers.html
# Posted on August 20th 2004 by ceciltguitar