Now that I've been on a tear with the practicing, my fiddle seems to be fighting back. I've got a nasty bruise on the collarbone from holding the thing - it would seem I have a lack of natural padding in that area. Do any of you use some kind of chin rest? My teacher used to rubber band kitchen sponges to his, but I could never get anything like that to stay put. I wonder if an actual storebought thing would solve the problem, as most of the ones I've seen are made of some kind of hard plastic.
In the meantime, I think the bruises make me look tough. Hey don't mess with me - I play fiddle.
I never used to bother with "formal" shoulder rests, preferring instead to stuff an old cloth diaper between my collar bone and fiddle. After 10 years of that, I finally borrowed someone's Kuhn shoulder rest. I can't believe I waited so long for comfort. I'll never go without it again. Not only can you adjust several ways to your personal angle, but it freed up my entire arm and hand and released a lot of clutching tension. My playing definitely improved and my neck hickies were no longer a topic of conversation at sessions.
Are you referring to a chin rest, or shoulder pad? If you're getting pain on your collar bone, perhaps it's the shoulder pad, I found this: http://www.shoulderpet.com/about.htm My sister is a seamstress; am going to ask her to make one for me and see how it goes.
Don't know anything about it, but it sounds like a good idea to try.
Am test driving a new/used fiddle. It has a Guarneri chin rest, which I have found to be more comfortable than the usual chin rest found on most.
In the mean time, one can say you play a wicked fiddle! Good luck!
Deb.
I've actually made myself a little shoulder pet. They're pretty easy to sew up. But they never stayed actually under the fiddle, where they're needed. It's definitely the collarbone that's bruising up though, it's quite a wicked fiddle hickey.
You could try a red rubber sponge - it's sold in drugstores to wash your face with, but they workbetter than anything I've tried to shield my collarbone from the ravages of the chinrest fitting (the little metal thingy that holds it on the fiddle).
Shoulder rests: I don't like Kun rests, they're not flexible. But Wolf makes a great rest, with a flexible metal base which you can bend to go right over part of your shoulder. Fit it to yourself first, then to the fiddle. Most comfortable set-up I've ever had, I love it.
A third for the Wolf shoulder rest. I have a long neck and need one or I get neck and back problems. For whatever reason, the pre-formed Kuhn did not fit my body and would dig in. The Wolf was the answer for me, although I was told that they are not making them as well as they used too. Another fiddler in town says his pops off while he is playing.
I don't seem to have much diff between Wolfe and Kuhn -- I also have a long neck (so the liver shaped rests never work for me and I can't just go without like some), but either one works for me. Will has an extremely attractive wooden shoulder rest. And I've seen those who don't need the length of a shoulder rest just use a nice piece of chamois between them and the fiddle, saying that it does just fine.
Most teachers and stores I know keep a whole basket of different shoulder rests for you to try with your fiddle and see which one you like. It's worth it to find the right one.
My comely wooden rest is a Kuhn. It has the same foam padding, but on a nice wooden base, rather than plastic. I paid less than $30 USD for it. But Kuhns fit me really well, so I don't need the adjustability of the Wolfs. And I like the way the Kuhns stay on. The foam also provides some grip against my shirt, even if I'm not pressing down on the chinrest at all, so the fiddle stays in place. Allows for a very relaxed left hand and arm, and I've never had a fiddle hickey.
I use an Artino shoulder rest. It adjusts for comfort, is inexpensive, fits all my fiddles, really stays put and I don't have to explain about "fiddle hickies" anymore.
Mary
I started without a shoulder rest and still mostly play without one, though for some non-trad things the extra physical security is comforting.
I got a Primo when I was having a few lessons, after trying my teacher's rest and us both agreeing I looked and felt more natural with it. I had trouble getting used to it, though: I didn't like the way it tilted the formerly-horizontal fiddle and even with the lowest chin rest I had it was still just a poofteenth too high, giving me neck aches.
Then I had one of those light bulb moments. The rest is supplied assembled so that the fiddle-grip screw mounting brackets point up. Unscrewing the fiddle grip at the end that sits on my shoulder, folding the mounting bracket down instead of up, then screwing the fiddle grip back in as low as it will go (and now "in reverse" from the way it was supplied) reduces the height by exactly one poofteenth! Getting the shoulder side down and winding the opposite end up as high as it will go now keeps the fiddle almost horizontal and the neck aches are gone.
Tish, you raise a point I've often wondered about. Some people play with their fiddles horizontal, and some tilted so the G string side is significantly "up." I tend toward tilted myself, tho not as extreme as some I've seen. I like not having to hold my whole arm up just to get over to the D and G strings--it's just less arm to wave around. And I have my shoulder rest set up to accommodate this--the foot on the treble side is screwed down nearly all the way, while the foot on the bass side is screwed out most of the way, providing built-in tilt.
Seems like lots of classical players go for the horizontal approach. What's the rationale for that?
I like the fiddle horizontal simply because I started out with it that way. My first fiddle's chin rest is more-or-less centred over the tailpiece and that combined with the fact that I initially didn't want a shoulder rest (so I'd have minimal trouble learning to hold a baroque fiddle later) meant the fiddle wasn't tilted. My wedding group classical player, though, has hers very tilted, to the point where I would have trouble finding the E string. So we're the other way round, Will! I must ask her about it and experiment a bit myself.
Will, it's because classical players know that a tilted fiddle looks damn sloppy. Sit up properly and keep your back straight too! You're in a session, not slouching around in front of the telly in your own living room
If you tilt the fiddle, you reduce the "footprint" of the fiddler by minimising the amount of bowing space required in the horizontal plane, thereby allowing more fiddlers to be end-stacked in the limited space in the pub.
I use the Wolf Primo shoulder rest too, it makes a huge difference, although it took me a while to get used to it because you have to adjust your hold somewhat. It makes for a lot less tension around the shoulder, and even on my jaw, having said that I still find that my jaw gets stiff and clicks if I've been playing a lot. (Maybe that's just the rickets though...).
Actually while the thread is open, does anybody else find that using the shoulder rest dampens the sound of the fiddle ever so slightly? That was one thing I found hard to get to grips with at first too.
I personally don't find the sound dampens oraghalm, only if I attempt to put it on the top instead of the underside after a few St. Peter's Porters, haha! Anyways, as for the original thread, I broke my collarbone when I was 15 and it never healed right and 17 years later it still sticks out almost 1.5cm. I have a really nifty point/bump on my left shoulder that a fiddle just does not work well on! OUCH!... I've found that even with a pillow-type device the violin still teeters too much so for me there is nothing better than a Khun shoulder rest. It does very much free up your arm and grip and it raises the violin reducing strain in the neck and shoulders...so I find not only does it take away the pain, but increases the 'enjoyable' amount of time I can play.
I started off using a shoulder rest, because I saw everyone else using one and thought it was necessary, but I realised after a few weeks that it was restrictive and I found it much more relaxing playing without it. On one or two occasions since, when I've tried it again, I found I felt insecure using it and liked it even less. I felt it was just one more thing that could be a source of rattles or buzzes, or just fall off (anyone who has played in an orchestra will have seen this happening more often than it should). I gave it away.
The problem of the feet of the chin rest bruising the collar can be due to a number of factors:
1 The obvious one of the clothing you're wearing. In hot weather you're probably wearing a thin shirt or vest, or perhaps even bare-chested. Try attaching a little piece of chamois leather to the tie bars of the chin rest so that the leather hangs down and can lie unotrusively between the feet of the chin rest and your collar bone. Chamois leather is very comfortable on the skin and you don't need much to provide the protection. Some people may be allergic to nickel plating on the feet of the chin rest, so chamois can be very useful in this respect.
2 Pressing down too hard with the chin. The fiddle should rest lightly on the collar bone, and the chin touches the chin rest lightly or even not at all. In ITM you rarely, if ever, go out of the first position, so you should be able to lift your head up from the chin rest and look around while playing. As an experiment, try playing without a chin rest (and shoulder rest). It doesn't take long to get used to it, and it's far more comfortable than you would think. Your chin should just lightly touch the tailpiece if you feel the need to stabilise the instrument, or if you want to go up and down the fingerboard. It also helps if you have your chin to the right (the treble side) of the tailpiece - this will stop the tendency of the fiddle to slide to your right. The only downside in warm conditions is perspiration dropping on the fiddle, so have a cloth handy to wipe it off occasionally. Some orchestral players I know have a piece of chamois lying between their chin and the fiddle to absorb sweat - because they might not have time in a concert to wipe it off the instrument.
3 Placement of the chin rest - moving the chin rest a little to the right or left may do the trick.
4 The design of the chin rest itself. On one of mine the feet are independent and don't have a connecting bar between them against the back of the fiddle (sorry, I don't know the name).
The shoulder rest dampening the sound of the fiddle? I'm not sure about this. I don't think it may be all that significant, but you'd need to do proper audio tests in an acoustics lab to be sure. Don't forget that the player's perception of sound coming from the fiddle is not the same as the audience's. If you're not using a shoulder rest the end of the back of the fiddle - probably less than an inch - will be resting on the collar bone, and the rest of the back will be free. That end of the back of the fiddle is restrained by the side of the fiddle and a block of wood within that retains the tailpiece nut, so there isn't a lot of vibration in that area to be damped. It may be possible that the shoulder rest attachments up nearer the middle of the instrument could slightly dampen the vibrations of the back. Anyway, it's the belly of the instrument that does the real business as far as vibration is concerned.
A few BTWs:-
I saw Itzhak Perlman, one of the world's greatest violinists, live on tv the other day playing the Elgar violin concerto (a very major work). He wasn't using a shoulder rest.
A while ago, also on tv, I saw a concert by a specialist baroque orchestra. Not a shoulder rest or chin rest was to be seen, and everyone was darting up and down the fingerboard with no trouble at all. The cellists weren't using floor spikes either.
Oisin Mac Diarmid doesn't use a shoulder rest or chin rest. He's well worth going to see if you get the chance.
Look at the old photos in O'Neill's "1001". No shoulder rests (they weren't around until after WWII anyway), or chin rests to be seen.
When you're not using a shoulder rest (or chin rest) you'll feel more at one with the fiddle, and you'll feel its vibrations going into your body.
Oraghalm, I forget to say that threads on this website never close. In fact, you may like to add a comment to thread #1 http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1, as some have done recently.
I'm sure Jeremy would appreciate it (seriously!)
yet another vote of confidence for the Wilf primo, which is what I use at the moment. I used to also have an inflatable one, which was excellent, but unfortunatly I managed to puncture it and I can remember who made it to buy a replacement.
Itzak Perlman did use a shoulder rest, but if he doesn't now it's probably due to the fact that his whole face and chin has got tubbier over the years. Same thing with Isaac Stern when he was alive.
The 'Strad' mazazine did tests on various shoulder rests, including the Wolf, and measured dampening of vibrations using the same instrument for each round of tests, including tests without a rest at all. The Wolf rest came tops by a significant margin.
We could all write forever more on the best rest to use, whether it's better with or without. My view is that, if you need to use a rest, you should be able to adjust the contour, height and position so that the fiddle will *slot* perfectly between your chin (side of your face) and your collarbone, *without changing your posture at all*. It can be comfortably tilted (left side up, and by the angle of the rest) through anything from 10 to 40 degrees depending on bowing preference (and how close another body is).
If you can't achieve the above without a rest, then I reckon you need one - even a
very slim model just to bridge the gap. If you really can do everything well without one, then that's good too.
Posture when playing should be the same as if you were looking straight ahead without a fiddle there. I find I can play for an solid hour with no aches at all (except maybe on my fingertips). Too much bending to one side will inevitably cause pain or discomfort in the neck, shoulder or back.
Finally, anyone who has a problem with the Wolf slipping off - you can use a long elastic band in a figure-of-eight over the rest's feet and round the fiddle. Works for me, although it's usually because the small rubber sleeves round the feet become worn. If the pad that rests on your shoulder wears smooth and slips, you can always rough it up with sandpaper (or buy a new rest!!!)
Talking about hickeys, I had been playing fiddle on and off for over around 30 years (as one does)and had never had one until I got my old fiddle last year, then, over summer, I had a spate of really nasty ones. The boys at school had a heyday sniggering behind my back and carrying on. I knew what they were thinking! A lovely lady, whose mum plays Scottish fiddle and knew about these things, came to the rescue with some magic cream she swore by. I forget what its called - silly something or other, but it is prescription. It cleared the hickeys up in a few days. I've got a cheap plastic "Johnson" shoulder rest that is comfortable, stays on, is flexible and does the trick. No need to be fussy.
Maybe I am holding the thing a bit too tightly between my chin and shoulder. When I started taking lessons (violin lessons, not fiddle, so perhaps there's a difference there), my teacher said that you should be able to hold the instrument without using your left hand to support it at all (I imagine to give freedom of movement in the left hand). Old habits are hard to correct.
S'pose I'll have to experiment some, see if I need the rest or not.
I've never had a fiddle hickey. myself 0- even though I have only used a shoulder rest for the past year or so, and even now only occasionally, but I notice that all of my firends who play classical violin seriously do; I think it's *definitely* due to the fact that they all play "horizontal" and i prefer to play in a nice, comfy slouch - even though my orchestra teacher at school tried to drill it out of me. Personally, i find that my shoulder rest ( mine is a Kuhn) helps my... note accuracy in jigs and reels, but it's almost impossible for me to get strathspeys of hornpipes to sound riht with it on. Go figure - I guess it inhibits the "swing" or something? Anyway, I love my Kuhn - and when i have it on at the right angle, I can even do the "no hands" hold that my (and apparently grainya's as well) elementary school teacher tried to drill into me.
With or without a shoulder rest, it's important to minimize how much effort you use to hold your fiddle. Kevin Burke says you don't hold it at all--you just stand under it. No different than laying your fiddle on a table--the support is there without extra strain. It helps that fiddles are remarkably lightweight animals--usually the mere weight of your head on the chinrest is enough to counterbalance the leverage of the scroll, when needed (which shouldn't be very often, especially in first position).
Even after 25 years, I still have times when I pick up the fiddle and it feels awkward. But usually it feels utterly comfortable--reminds me of holding my sons when they were babies and they'd nuzzle against my neck. (Thank gawd the fiddle hasn't grown like the boys--imagine a 120 lb fiddle.
I'm with Will. I use the Wolf to attain a slight angle, and try to maintain a healthy balance between top and bottom holding. I can't get my head around "not holding it", so I go for a sort of zen balance. Perhaps a holistic approach where each part has its place.
Off to festivals in St Paul and Milwaukee! See you in a few weeks. All the best,
After 5mos of solid working thru the pitfalls novice fiddlers go through, I find that things are finally feeling comfortable, natural. It took a while as the fiddle itself is probably the most ergonomically uncomfortable instrument to play. I think we tend to start out holding too tightly with the left hand, pressing down with to much pressure with the chin, but gradually things become more natural. One thing that did help was practicing with small frequent sessions, rather than the usual hour(whatever). I had break things up by 15min periods then increased to 1/2 hour to an hour. Your body generally tells you when to take a break. In the beginning it's natural to want to keep banging away in hopes of getting better, faster. In the end your bod generally wins anyway. Better to avoid the intendant pain, or at least minimize it. Worst case can be injury.
I haven't had a hicky yet. Don't know if I'm lucky or indicates I'm not playing enough to case one. I am using the Kun shoulder rest. It seems comfortable enough, but does tend to fall off easily.
Grainya, I mentioend earlier on about Itzhak Perlman not using a shoulder rest. At one stage in the Elgar violin concerto when he was playing a sustained note on the open G string he took his left hand away from the fiddle for several seconds while he played that note, holding the fiddle just with the chin and collar-bone.
It's worth noting that he was wearing evening dress, so the lapel of his jacket would have acted as a sort of shoulder rest. In the 18c many players would have been wearing frock coats which would have had the same effect.
Trevor
In the Bristol session pubs I've yet to see a bare-chested fiddler, or any other bare-chested person for that matter. I believe most pubs have a "no bare-chest" rule, although I've heard of one or two, shall we say "specialist", pubs where that rule might not necessarily be enforced , but we don't go to that sort anyway.
No, it's just that in the very hot humid weather we've been having lately I've been practising at home bare-chested, so the fiddle was sitting directly on my collar-bone. It wasn't uncomfortable in the least.
Attack fiddle
Attack fiddle
Now that I've been on a tear with the practicing, my fiddle seems to be fighting back. I've got a nasty bruise on the collarbone from holding the thing - it would seem I have a lack of natural padding in that area. Do any of you use some kind of chin rest? My teacher used to rubber band kitchen sponges to his, but I could never get anything like that to stay put. I wonder if an actual storebought thing would solve the problem, as most of the ones I've seen are made of some kind of hard plastic.
In the meantime, I think the bruises make me look tough. Hey don't mess with me - I play fiddle.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by grainya
Re: Attack fiddle
I hav always used a chinrest I can't play withou one so I say try it.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: Attack fiddle
I never used to bother with "formal" shoulder rests, preferring instead to stuff an old cloth diaper between my collar bone and fiddle. After 10 years of that, I finally borrowed someone's Kuhn shoulder rest. I can't believe I waited so long for comfort. I'll never go without it again. Not only can you adjust several ways to your personal angle, but it freed up my entire arm and hand and released a lot of clutching tension. My playing definitely improved and my neck hickies were no longer a topic of conversation at sessions.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: Attack fiddle
Yeah I have a bit of that 'clutching tension' myself. Perhaps I'll have to suck it up and spend some money.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by grainya
Re: Attack fiddle
Are you referring to a chin rest, or shoulder pad? If you're getting pain on your collar bone, perhaps it's the shoulder pad, I found this:
http://www.shoulderpet.com/about.htm My sister is a seamstress; am going to ask her to make one for me and see how it goes.
Don't know anything about it, but it sounds like a good idea to try.
There's the gel chin rest, similar to the gel mouse pads:
http://www.music123.com/GelRest-Violin--Viola-Chin-Rest-Pad-i112786.music
Don't know anything about this either.
Am test driving a new/used fiddle. It has a Guarneri chin rest, which I have found to be more comfortable than the usual chin rest found on most.
In the mean time, one can say you play a wicked fiddle! Good luck!
Deb.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Attack fiddle
Did the safety pins not hurt, Winterhawk?
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Back for a while
Re: Attack fiddle
I've actually made myself a little shoulder pet. They're pretty easy to sew up. But they never stayed actually under the fiddle, where they're needed. It's definitely the collarbone that's bruising up though, it's quite a wicked fiddle hickey.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by grainya
Re: Attack fiddle
John J - far worse was a not-so-sanitized diaper.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by winterhawk
Re: Attack fiddle
Could you use a six-inch nail or two to hold the pad / pet / diaper in place!!!
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Attack fiddle
How come Ferryman is on tonite Jimmy?
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Eoino
Re: Attack fiddle
You could try a red rubber sponge - it's sold in drugstores to wash your face with, but they workbetter than anything I've tried to shield my collarbone from the ravages of the chinrest fitting (the little metal thingy that holds it on the fiddle).
Shoulder rests: I don't like Kun rests, they're not flexible. But Wolf makes a great rest, with a flexible metal base which you can bend to go right over part of your shoulder. Fit it to yourself first, then to the fiddle. Most comfortable set-up I've ever had, I love it.
Best of luck
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by fiddlefingers
Re: Attack fiddle
I second that, fiddlefingers. Both the Wolf Forte Primo and Forte Secondo are great. I use the Primo.
Jim
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Attack fiddle
A third for the Wolf shoulder rest. I have a long neck and need one or I get neck and back problems. For whatever reason, the pre-formed Kuhn did not fit my body and would dig in. The Wolf was the answer for me, although I was told that they are not making them as well as they used too. Another fiddler in town says his pops off while he is playing.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Jode
Re: Attack fiddle
I don't seem to have much diff between Wolfe and Kuhn -- I also have a long neck (so the liver shaped rests never work for me and I can't just go without like some), but either one works for me. Will has an extremely attractive wooden shoulder rest. And I've seen those who don't need the length of a shoulder rest just use a nice piece of chamois between them and the fiddle, saying that it does just fine.
Most teachers and stores I know keep a whole basket of different shoulder rests for you to try with your fiddle and see which one you like. It's worth it to find the right one.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Attack fiddle
My comely wooden rest is a Kuhn. It has the same foam padding, but on a nice wooden base, rather than plastic. I paid less than $30 USD for it. But Kuhns fit me really well, so I don't need the adjustability of the Wolfs. And I like the way the Kuhns stay on. The foam also provides some grip against my shirt, even if I'm not pressing down on the chinrest at all, so the fiddle stays in place. Allows for a very relaxed left hand and arm, and I've never had a fiddle hickey.
# Posted on August 12th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Attack fiddle
Hi All,
I use an Artino shoulder rest. It adjusts for comfort, is inexpensive, fits all my fiddles, really stays put and I don't have to explain about "fiddle hickies" anymore.
Mary
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Antikhntr
Re: Attack fiddle
Another vote for the Wolf rest.
I started without a shoulder rest and still mostly play without one, though for some non-trad things the extra physical security is comforting.
I got a Primo when I was having a few lessons, after trying my teacher's rest and us both agreeing I looked and felt more natural with it. I had trouble getting used to it, though: I didn't like the way it tilted the formerly-horizontal fiddle and even with the lowest chin rest I had it was still just a poofteenth too high, giving me neck aches.
Then I had one of those light bulb moments. The rest is supplied assembled so that the fiddle-grip screw mounting brackets point up. Unscrewing the fiddle grip at the end that sits on my shoulder, folding the mounting bracket down instead of up, then screwing the fiddle grip back in as low as it will go (and now "in reverse" from the way it was supplied) reduces the height by exactly one poofteenth! Getting the shoulder side down and winding the opposite end up as high as it will go now keeps the fiddle almost horizontal and the neck aches are gone.
Blindingly obvious in retrospect, of course …
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Tish
Re: Attack fiddle
"Poofteenth". *smirk*
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Attack fiddle
Tish, you raise a point I've often wondered about. Some people play with their fiddles horizontal, and some tilted so the G string side is significantly "up." I tend toward tilted myself, tho not as extreme as some I've seen. I like not having to hold my whole arm up just to get over to the D and G strings--it's just less arm to wave around. And I have my shoulder rest set up to accommodate this--the foot on the treble side is screwed down nearly all the way, while the foot on the bass side is screwed out most of the way, providing built-in tilt.
Seems like lots of classical players go for the horizontal approach. What's the rationale for that?
And what do the rest of you prefer, and why?
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Attack fiddle
I like the fiddle horizontal simply because I started out with it that way. My first fiddle's chin rest is more-or-less centred over the tailpiece and that combined with the fact that I initially didn't want a shoulder rest (so I'd have minimal trouble learning to hold a baroque fiddle later) meant the fiddle wasn't tilted. My wedding group classical player, though, has hers very tilted, to the point where I would have trouble finding the E string. So we're the other way round, Will! I must ask her about it and experiment a bit myself.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Tish
Re: Attack fiddle
Will, it's because classical players know that a tilted fiddle looks damn sloppy. Sit up properly and keep your back straight too! You're in a session, not slouching around in front of the telly in your own living room
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Dow
Re: Attack fiddle
If you tilt the fiddle, you reduce the "footprint" of the fiddler by minimising the amount of bowing space required in the horizontal plane, thereby allowing more fiddlers to be end-stacked in the limited space in the pub.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Tish
Re: Attack fiddle
Hahahaha that makes sense to me!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Dow
Re: Attack fiddle
Tish, that honestly is one of the reasons I like mine tilted--you end up bowing in your own space, not the person's to your right.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Attack fiddle
I use the Wolf Primo shoulder rest too, it makes a huge difference, although it took me a while to get used to it because you have to adjust your hold somewhat. It makes for a lot less tension around the shoulder, and even on my jaw, having said that I still find that my jaw gets stiff and clicks if I've been playing a lot. (Maybe that's just the rickets though...).
Actually while the thread is open, does anybody else find that using the shoulder rest dampens the sound of the fiddle ever so slightly? That was one thing I found hard to get to grips with at first too.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Attack fiddle
I personally don't find the sound dampens oraghalm, only if I attempt to put it on the top instead of the underside after a few St. Peter's Porters, haha! Anyways, as for the original thread, I broke my collarbone when I was 15 and it never healed right and 17 years later it still sticks out almost 1.5cm. I have a really nifty point/bump on my left shoulder that a fiddle just does not work well on! OUCH!... I've found that even with a pillow-type device the violin still teeters too much so for me there is nothing better than a Khun shoulder rest. It does very much free up your arm and grip and it raises the violin reducing strain in the neck and shoulders...so I find not only does it take away the pain, but increases the 'enjoyable' amount of time I can play.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by c_ya
Re: Attack fiddle
I started off using a shoulder rest, because I saw everyone else using one and thought it was necessary, but I realised after a few weeks that it was restrictive and I found it much more relaxing playing without it. On one or two occasions since, when I've tried it again, I found I felt insecure using it and liked it even less. I felt it was just one more thing that could be a source of rattles or buzzes, or just fall off (anyone who has played in an orchestra will have seen this happening more often than it should). I gave it away.
The problem of the feet of the chin rest bruising the collar can be due to a number of factors:
1 The obvious one of the clothing you're wearing. In hot weather you're probably wearing a thin shirt or vest, or perhaps even bare-chested. Try attaching a little piece of chamois leather to the tie bars of the chin rest so that the leather hangs down and can lie unotrusively between the feet of the chin rest and your collar bone. Chamois leather is very comfortable on the skin and you don't need much to provide the protection. Some people may be allergic to nickel plating on the feet of the chin rest, so chamois can be very useful in this respect.
2 Pressing down too hard with the chin. The fiddle should rest lightly on the collar bone, and the chin touches the chin rest lightly or even not at all. In ITM you rarely, if ever, go out of the first position, so you should be able to lift your head up from the chin rest and look around while playing. As an experiment, try playing without a chin rest (and shoulder rest). It doesn't take long to get used to it, and it's far more comfortable than you would think. Your chin should just lightly touch the tailpiece if you feel the need to stabilise the instrument, or if you want to go up and down the fingerboard. It also helps if you have your chin to the right (the treble side) of the tailpiece - this will stop the tendency of the fiddle to slide to your right. The only downside in warm conditions is perspiration dropping on the fiddle, so have a cloth handy to wipe it off occasionally. Some orchestral players I know have a piece of chamois lying between their chin and the fiddle to absorb sweat - because they might not have time in a concert to wipe it off the instrument.
3 Placement of the chin rest - moving the chin rest a little to the right or left may do the trick.
4 The design of the chin rest itself. On one of mine the feet are independent and don't have a connecting bar between them against the back of the fiddle (sorry, I don't know the name).
The shoulder rest dampening the sound of the fiddle? I'm not sure about this. I don't think it may be all that significant, but you'd need to do proper audio tests in an acoustics lab to be sure. Don't forget that the player's perception of sound coming from the fiddle is not the same as the audience's. If you're not using a shoulder rest the end of the back of the fiddle - probably less than an inch - will be resting on the collar bone, and the rest of the back will be free. That end of the back of the fiddle is restrained by the side of the fiddle and a block of wood within that retains the tailpiece nut, so there isn't a lot of vibration in that area to be damped. It may be possible that the shoulder rest attachments up nearer the middle of the instrument could slightly dampen the vibrations of the back. Anyway, it's the belly of the instrument that does the real business as far as vibration is concerned.
A few BTWs:-
I saw Itzhak Perlman, one of the world's greatest violinists, live on tv the other day playing the Elgar violin concerto (a very major work). He wasn't using a shoulder rest.
A while ago, also on tv, I saw a concert by a specialist baroque orchestra. Not a shoulder rest or chin rest was to be seen, and everyone was darting up and down the fingerboard with no trouble at all. The cellists weren't using floor spikes either.
Oisin Mac Diarmid doesn't use a shoulder rest or chin rest. He's well worth going to see if you get the chance.
Look at the old photos in O'Neill's "1001". No shoulder rests (they weren't around until after WWII anyway), or chin rests to be seen.
When you're not using a shoulder rest (or chin rest) you'll feel more at one with the fiddle, and you'll feel its vibrations going into your body.
Trevor
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Attack fiddle
Worldfiddle, our posts crossed! Obviously, as in your experience, there can be very good reasons why a shoulder rest is essential.
Trevor
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Attack fiddle
Oraghalm, I forget to say that threads on this website never close. In fact, you may like to add a comment to thread #1 http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1, as some have done recently.
I'm sure Jeremy would appreciate it (seriously!)
Trevor
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Attack fiddle
yet another vote of confidence for the Wilf primo, which is what I use at the moment. I used to also have an inflatable one, which was excellent, but unfortunatly I managed to puncture it and I can remember who made it to buy a replacement.
Anders
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by weefreefidler
Re: Attack fiddle
oops - Wolf primo
anders
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by weefreefidler
Re: Attack fiddle
A few more BTWs to add to Trev's good ones:
Itzak Perlman did use a shoulder rest, but if he doesn't now it's probably due to the fact that his whole face and chin has got tubbier over the years. Same thing with Isaac Stern when he was alive.
The 'Strad' mazazine did tests on various shoulder rests, including the Wolf, and measured dampening of vibrations using the same instrument for each round of tests, including tests without a rest at all. The Wolf rest came tops by a significant margin.
We could all write forever more on the best rest to use, whether it's better with or without. My view is that, if you need to use a rest, you should be able to adjust the contour, height and position so that the fiddle will *slot* perfectly between your chin (side of your face) and your collarbone, *without changing your posture at all*. It can be comfortably tilted (left side up, and by the angle of the rest) through anything from 10 to 40 degrees depending on bowing preference (and how close another body is).
If you can't achieve the above without a rest, then I reckon you need one - even a
very slim model just to bridge the gap. If you really can do everything well without one, then that's good too.
Posture when playing should be the same as if you were looking straight ahead without a fiddle there. I find I can play for an solid hour with no aches at all (except maybe on my fingertips). Too much bending to one side will inevitably cause pain or discomfort in the neck, shoulder or back.
Finally, anyone who has a problem with the Wolf slipping off - you can use a long elastic band in a figure-of-eight over the rest's feet and round the fiddle. Works for me, although it's usually because the small rubber sleeves round the feet become worn. If the pad that rests on your shoulder wears smooth and slips, you can always rough it up with sandpaper (or buy a new rest!!!)
Jim
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Attack fiddle
Talking about hickeys, I had been playing fiddle on and off for over around 30 years (as one does)and had never had one until I got my old fiddle last year, then, over summer, I had a spate of really nasty ones. The boys at school had a heyday sniggering behind my back and carrying on. I knew what they were thinking! A lovely lady, whose mum plays Scottish fiddle and knew about these things, came to the rescue with some magic cream she swore by. I forget what its called - silly something or other, but it is prescription. It cleared the hickeys up in a few days. I've got a cheap plastic "Johnson" shoulder rest that is comfortable, stays on, is flexible and does the trick. No need to be fussy.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Clear Drops
Re: Attack fiddle
Jim, I've been waiting for my Kuhn rest to wear out for forever, so I can justify buying one like Will's!
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Attack fiddle
Maybe I am holding the thing a bit too tightly between my chin and shoulder. When I started taking lessons (violin lessons, not fiddle, so perhaps there's a difference there), my teacher said that you should be able to hold the instrument without using your left hand to support it at all (I imagine to give freedom of movement in the left hand). Old habits are hard to correct.
S'pose I'll have to experiment some, see if I need the rest or not.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by grainya
Re: Attack fiddle
I've never had a fiddle hickey. myself 0- even though I have only used a shoulder rest for the past year or so, and even now only occasionally, but I notice that all of my firends who play classical violin seriously do; I think it's *definitely* due to the fact that they all play "horizontal" and i prefer to play in a nice, comfy slouch - even though my orchestra teacher at school tried to drill it out of me. Personally, i find that my shoulder rest ( mine is a Kuhn) helps my... note accuracy in jigs and reels, but it's almost impossible for me to get strathspeys of hornpipes to sound riht with it on. Go figure - I guess it inhibits the "swing" or something? Anyway, I love my Kuhn - and when i have it on at the right angle, I can even do the "no hands" hold that my (and apparently grainya's as well) elementary school teacher tried to drill into me.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by tualha04
Re: Attack fiddle
With or without a shoulder rest, it's important to minimize how much effort you use to hold your fiddle. Kevin Burke says you don't hold it at all--you just stand under it. No different than laying your fiddle on a table--the support is there without extra strain. It helps that fiddles are remarkably lightweight animals--usually the mere weight of your head on the chinrest is enough to counterbalance the leverage of the scroll, when needed (which shouldn't be very often, especially in first position).
Even after 25 years, I still have times when I pick up the fiddle and it feels awkward. But usually it feels utterly comfortable--reminds me of holding my sons when they were babies and they'd nuzzle against my neck. (Thank gawd the fiddle hasn't grown like the boys--imagine a 120 lb fiddle.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Attack fiddle
I'm with Will. I use the Wolf to attain a slight angle, and try to maintain a healthy balance between top and bottom holding. I can't get my head around "not holding it", so I go for a sort of zen balance. Perhaps a holistic approach where each part has its place.
Off to festivals in St Paul and Milwaukee! See you in a few weeks. All the best,
Jode
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Jode
Re: Attack fiddle
After 5mos of solid working thru the pitfalls novice fiddlers go through, I find that things are finally feeling comfortable, natural. It took a while as the fiddle itself is probably the most ergonomically uncomfortable instrument to play. I think we tend to start out holding too tightly with the left hand, pressing down with to much pressure with the chin, but gradually things become more natural. One thing that did help was practicing with small frequent sessions, rather than the usual hour(whatever). I had break things up by 15min periods then increased to 1/2 hour to an hour. Your body generally tells you when to take a break. In the beginning it's natural to want to keep banging away in hopes of getting better, faster. In the end your bod generally wins anyway. Better to avoid the intendant pain, or at least minimize it. Worst case can be injury.
I haven't had a hicky yet. Don't know if I'm lucky or indicates I'm not playing enough to case one. I am using the Kun shoulder rest. It seems comfortable enough, but does tend to fall off easily.
# Posted on August 13th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Attack fiddle
Grainya, I mentioend earlier on about Itzhak Perlman not using a shoulder rest. At one stage in the Elgar violin concerto when he was playing a sustained note on the open G string he took his left hand away from the fiddle for several seconds while he played that note, holding the fiddle just with the chin and collar-bone.
It's worth noting that he was wearing evening dress, so the lapel of his jacket would have acted as a sort of shoulder rest. In the 18c many players would have been wearing frock coats which would have had the same effect.
Trevor
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Attack fiddle
That's it then, frock coats everyone!
:-|
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Attack fiddle
Oh dear, Trevor ... mental images of a pub full of bare-chested fiddlers ...
*snort*
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by Tish
Re: Attack fiddle
Ah, Tish, you may wish ...
In the Bristol session pubs I've yet to see a bare-chested fiddler, or any other bare-chested person for that matter. I believe most pubs have a "no bare-chest" rule, although I've heard of one or two, shall we say "specialist", pubs where that rule might not necessarily be enforced
, but we don't go to that sort anyway.
No, it's just that in the very hot humid weather we've been having lately I've been practising at home bare-chested, so the fiddle was sitting directly on my collar-bone. It wasn't uncomfortable in the least.
Trevor
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Attack fiddle
I believe for the men it may be 'no shirt, no service', but for the ladies I believe the rule is 'no shirt, no cover charge'.
# Posted on August 14th 2004 by grainya