Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
At last, I've got this far. Thanks, Jeremy.
Re the question. Would you say that there is a difference between a musician and a "player" of music. I feel that I would fall into the latter category, having been mainly self taught and with limited abilities and horizons, ie trad, folk, and other forms of popular music.
How about you? Or do you think that both are one and the same and it's just a case of good V bad or experience V inexperience?
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
According to my dictionary, a musician is someone who is skilled at music or one who's profession is music.
So I guess it's up to you what you call yourself, provided you're prepared to say that you are skilled at what you do.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I only say I play music. Which is tantamount to calling myself a player.
As for the dictionary - hmm - there's a difference between the definition and the usage of a word. The dictionary also gives a definition for tyrant, yet you are unlikely to hear tyrants describing themselves as such.
I think "musician" is something that people call other people.
When I hear anyone call himself/herself a musician, I listen quietly for some time to find out whether this is innocence or pretention.
This is only my view - I do not claim to justify it, only to hold it.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Player seems appropriately modest, so that's waht I'd describe myself as. if someone else wants to call one of us a musician, that's fine, i've been called a lot worse.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
what about "muso"?
Been called that before, but that's more a subcultural classification in these parts than an academic one. A generic term, it is, referring to someone who is always broke, hungry, possibly on some sort of cheap drug like weed or box wine, and living with his folks or his girlfriend. Roams around in packs of four (or five if you count the drummer), only wears black and probably has long hair. Will pretend to be a musician for money and/or a pint of lager and two packs of cigarettes.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I don't really think there is much difference. I mean, you don't have to be a good musician to be a musician, do you? Haven't you ever heard someone called a bad musician before? I think a musician is just someone who plays music. I guess that makes you a player too, but musician is a more specific word.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hey, I looked up musician in our thesaurus, and here are all of the alternate words that came up: music maker, professional musician, performer, executant, interpreter, tunester, artiste, artist, concert artist, virtuoso, virtuosa, maestro, recitalist, soloist, duettist, street musician, busker.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Out of Q's list, I think maestro sounds quite nice. I can just just hear it at a session...
A tune has just finished. Those who want to start a set are looking round to see if anyone else was about to start one. Those who definitely don't want to start a set show a sudden strange fascination with the beer mat in front of them. Suddenly a fiddle player places his instrument under his chin and scrapes an exploratory scratch. This coincides with a flurry of random sounding toots as the flute player just down the table checks that the notes are still in his instrument. Both instruments are hurriedly put down.
"Sorry, maestro, you were starting one..." offers the flute.
"No, no, maestro, I wasn't really sure what I was going to play, you fire away!" replies the fiddler, showing the correct degree of deference to a flute player(!)
I like it...
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
"Sorry, tunester, you were starting one..." offers the flute.
"No, no, tunester, I wasn't really sure what I was going to play, you fire away!" replies the fiddler.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Interesting. In this part of the world (Texas), I only hear the term "player" used by professional, or professional-level, musicians. Sometimes it's with respect ("He's a player") or awe ("He's a PLAYER") or seeming surprise, which I translate as condescending: "You're a player." Meaning, "You're one of us. I'm top-level, and I see that you're in the same league."
I don't think I've ever heard this term used by, or applied to, a female musician.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I guess, it depends where you are, I'd never teach in Ireland - but in OZ if I dont teach then there is no-one... But always a player first. Sessions are *all* that matter..for me I mean!
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
oh F*ck - I got the thread wrong (again) Tunester!!!! Thats me...god what go's thro my head when I'm drunk!!?? ps - HI zeens, helen, conan, em, joyce, danny, Glaubs, will, DOW!!!!, etc
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I don't see anything wrong with the term "musician". I'm sure part of the reason why people are feeling the need to substitute it for something else is the need for people who play in sessions to think of their music as fun - hence the use of terms like "player" and "tunester" (I think tunester is a bit crap actually - it has echoes of American razzmatazz trumpeters in black and white stripey suits). It's a shame in a way that "musician" has become almost a dirty word in our culture of "modesty". I think rather than being a sign of "modesty", it's probably symptomatic of the trad community's inferiority complex vis-a-vis other genres of music like classical. We have to learn that's it's okay to call ourselves musicians. Just because our music is less "serious" or "high-brow" or even "difficult" than other types of music doesn't mean we somehow aren't worthy of being termed "musicians". I have a theory that this inferiority complex has come about because of some people's attitudes towards the academic and artistic value of "folk musics". I also think that it stems from societal attitudes towards art in all its forms. Music just isn't high on the societal priority list. This is shown by the fact that it's hard to make a living just from playing music. Sure, some of the big names in pop/rock make heaps, but that's only a tiny percentage of the musicians who are out there. Over the centuries these attitudes are bound to have an effect on the culture and attitudes of the trad community.
It's all about this silly view in the West that you can only do something well if you get paid to do it. Like if you say "that guy's a cook" then you immediately assume that he's a professional chef. Doesn't matter that you think the woman who lives next door to you is better than most professional chefs and makes the most amazing Vietnamese spring rolls. People would say that she's a "good cook", but why do people feel so uncomfortable just saying she's a "cook". It's because of our obsession with being paid to do things, and the perceived worthlessness of any activity that is unpaid, regardless of its cultural or artistic worth.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I've alway's believed that a certain level of competency must be attained to earns the title "musican." Just like a certain level of culinary ability is a prerequisite to being a chef as opposed to one who is simply preparing macaroni and cheese in the microwave.
I consider myself a mad practicer, more than anything. I have my own personal criteria as far as what I I feel I need to achieve to consider myself a "musican." Much like the day I knew I was ready to run a professional kitchen and ready to cook at the James Beard house in NYC.
I suppose someone who doesn't play an instrument would think of me as a musican (someone actually told my wife that she "had no idea I was a world class musican....what a laugh!), but anyone with any sort of real competence would surely label me a hack....
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Just what I was thinking, Dow - but you put it into better words than I ever could. Why folk musicians don't own up to being just, I haven't been able to figure out. Take courage, all you! But remember to practise first, then you'll be worthy of the name.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Chef Paul - competency in whose eyes? Your own? Your next door neighbour's? The other people who play in your session? A random person on the street? Competency in what sense? Technique? Memory for tunes? Ability to convey emotion thru' music?...
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Why do we need labels?? I however do agree with Dow and well put too. I also agree with Chef Paul. I think a level of competance would change the label in a way. Dow you mentioned measurements: Technique, ability to convey emotion etc. I think those measurements would/could change the label, (maybe good, talented etc.) musician would help. Anyone picking up an instrument and playing the bare bones of a tune just isn't at the same level as an experienced player. Doesn't make them bad, just not there yet. I don't think the number of tunes would be an indicator of good, bad or otherwise. I think chef vs cook would have a much easier time of measuring the difference. But then, women were not considered chefs regardless. I would debate that one vigorously! Julia Child is one of the best in my book! What the "H" is a professional kitchen by the way? Sorry, off topic.
As I'm just learning, if I need to label what I am doing, I guess I would label myself as a novice fiddler.
Deb.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
i cook with my instrument, and measure out the ingredients, i cup timbre 2tblspoons pitch half a litre of tempo ten grams of repertoire, stir deeply, scrape sides, and pour into pan...
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Dow (assuming your the sober Dow)
I'm sure at some point in life you came to the realization that some people just get it when it comes to certain things (pick the subject it doesnt matter), and I'm quite sure you are a
smart guy and you know exactly what I'm talking about in the above post. I'd rather not play along with you this time.
Debwah
Since it's way off topic I won't get into it much...it's a nasty hot place where a bunch people in puffy white hats work at a frienzied pace because they love it and it's there chosen field.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
So it's the puffy white hats that distinguishes a kitchen to being a professional one. As there are kitchens in Micky D's too. Said with tongue in cheek by the way!
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
"Would you describe yourself as...."
Unless you're a professional musician/player/maestro/tunester, or you're submitting an ad to the personals column, when would you ever find the need to describe yourself as one of the above?
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Sometimes I think 'player' more than 'musician', in ITM. ITM-ers tends to play the one type of music on several instruments, so is the swing more towards playing abiblty than musicianship? I wonder.
I play different types of music mainly on one instrument, so does that make me more of a musician than a player? And what if I play my main instrument with a high level of skill? Am I then a better player than a musician? It's getting silly now, isn't it? I'm confused already!
It's worth noting that the opinions would differ vastly outside of this site. Many musicians of other genres would look down their noses at Irish or folk, complaining that they are simply playing notes and copying others without having any creative ability - the "musical monkey" syndrome. But then, one could attach that label to classical musicians, even to the likes of Itzhak Perlman and other virtuosi.
Right, this is now doing my head in, so I'm off to play as players do, while playing music as musicians do too!!
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Me (she says, ducking the point *grin*), I just call myself a fiddler. Why just a fiddler when I play other instruments too? Because I play fiddle well enough to be willing to play it in public. Not true of the other instruments yet.
Or I sometimes call myself a folkie. In this neck of the woods folkies ALL play something even if it's just a shakey egg ;), so that tells people I play an instrument.
Back in my teens I used to say I was a musician, but I found that people automatically assumed that that meant I either made my living from it or was going to when I got older. I think it's partly a matter of what preconceptions both you and the person you're speaking to have in their heads.
For me, 'fiddler' is simpler.
Sara
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Chef Paul, I don't know what you mean by "play along". I thought I was bringing up valid points. My (serious!) point was that once you start deciding terminology according to levels of competency, it means you have to draw the line somewhere between good and bad.
1) My good and bad is gonna be different from your good and bad.
2) Don't we say "good musician" and "bad musician"? Doesn't that mean that we're all musicians, whether we're good at it or not? Why can't someone who plays for 5 hours a day but never gets any better still be a "musician" in the sense that that's what they enjoy in life and spend time doing?
And yes, I was and still am sober, and trying my best not to be slightly offended that you should think my post above was written whilst drunk
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Actually, fair enough on the drunk thing. I bristled and became overly defensive when I read that, but now I'm having bad flashbacks to the times when Beebs and I have logged on at some ungodly hour of the morning and posted rubbish. But it's quite easy to tell when I'm doing drunkposting because I don't write more than about a sentence.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Okay, taking you seriously: "Don't we say "good musician" and "bad musician"?"
No, I don't, but I rarely call people "musicians", whether good or bad, actually. I guess I'm more likely to say, "oh, he's really good," or "oh, well, he's getting better."
"Play along" because there's been plenty of times when you've stirred the pot just because you could. And you know it. *grin*
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well this time I was trying to engage in serious but friendly debate on semantics. I love what you said about "good" and "better" Zeens. That's the sort of reply I was looking for. You're just so right you make me sick
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Dow
Hiya. You? Get on the board and start posting while in an inbreated stupor...what was I thinking? Probably that you are a man after my own heart...anyway.
My five year old bangs on a bodhran and toots on a whistle, she make music, sure....and I tell her she's a musican, but seriously is she?
As I said i have my own personal criteria, (before I would consider myself a musican) it dosn't have to be your's or anyone elses, and there doesn't have to be line drawn. Afer all it's a slow process...getting hopefully better all the time.
What's my criteria (ITM only here, OK?)you might be prompted to ask for discussions sake. Ok here goes, (at this point if you don't reaaly give a you-know-what you can stop reading, I would stop too!)
1-The ability to play the notes with out screwing up a lot.
2-The ability to keep time. Nice and steady.
3-The ability to ornament the notes. (I'm so psyched about how my rolls are comming along I can't even tell you)
4-The ability to get behind the rhythms.
5-The ability to improvise variations (and even some counter-point but that might be a bit advanced)
6-The ability to hang with people I consider all the above-not blow circles around them just to hold my own.
7-A repriotiore. (spelling?)
Until then I'll just be practicing to be a musican...hopefully I'll get there in the next couple of years.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hmmm, okay, but then I'd worry that once you'd got those 8, you'd still not want to call yourself a musician because you'd have your eye set on the next thing, like doing perfect strings of lightning speed triplets on your banjo, or 9-note crans on your whistle. It's as though there's this barrier you have to cross and once you're on the other side you can breathe a sigh of relief and call yourself a musician. I see what you're saying and everything, but there'll always be technique to work on and new tunes to learn.
I guess in the end it's how you treat yourself and how you want to define yourself. So in that case ... what was I talking about again? Well, the fact that you're striving to get better can only be a good thing. It means you're enjoying it. There's you're even more important point number 9
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, I'm enjoying it when I'm not tempted to throw the fiddle out into the traffic to get run over by the nearest passing car. I'm trying to change up my style a bit, bowing a la Harmon, and it is TRASHING my playing. I'm going upstairs to scowl at my fiddle.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
But wouldn't that be better said that your hairt, er, heart, goes into it so much that you play well enough? Cos that's an ceol rince is about, no? heart? soul? the ecstasy that comes when the feet thunder and the pipes skirl and the fiddle wails?
meh.
I am a fiddler. not muso, or whatnot. :D that's good enough for me.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I got that with my concertina. I got so angry with it that I ceased to even think about it and left it on the floor of the Indian Home Diner near our session pub. Bit like the stork leaving a baby on your doorstep, hahaha!
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, we all might know what that was, if there was a *sample of it on the Mighty Craic CD* (he said, raising his voice and looking pointedly in Will's direction)
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Paul, good list. (Repertoire, btw, since you asked. *friendly grin*) But I think the crux of the matter would be the next item:
9-Approaching what you call yourself with the same attitude/philosophy/choose-your-term you bring to the music. I could go all Lewis Carroll here and ask who's the master, us ITM geeks or the word, but that would probably come across wrong and start flames and I'm not in the mood to run for the extinguisher tonight. Better to quote someone more recent and more laid back.
It's all in your mind.
And unless you deliberately use a word you know another person finds inflammatory, you're not too very responsible for how other people interpret what you call yourself. (If there's one thing Asperger's has taught me, it's that.) Because it's all in their minds too, and how many of us can read minds?
Sara
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
hehehehe...somewhere, I have a tape of Will trying to record some stuff for me after an entire three day weekend of non-stop playing. His arm was cramping up, he was forgetting tunes (did I mention we kept staying up late and drinking?), and, in general, swearing was the most prominent feature of his "style" at that point. I'm thinking seriously of putting it on the disc. *grin*
All right. I'm going upstairs to work on my...groan...triplets.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Me swearing would be an interesting track--I couldn't get through my own tune, let alone, what was it, some jigs we were trying to play together? My hands were shot. Very much hell in a handbasket fiddling.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
oh - i love these long slow threads..
gotta scroll back to remember what's said
Harmon style fiddlin. now there's a truth
I learned it in th flesh I have the proof
We all love to talk and we all love to play
We all love to cook in our various ways
We want to be friends, and we hate to offend
And our written intentions aren't always discerned
but: professional Baker or Piper or Nurse
We all know that life without music is worse
Than life with the charm of the wit thatwe try
To get good at, or better and better one day
Good. What is GOOd? what is better? What best?
Music's the wit and the passport to fun
How can you make measure to anything less?
A man with a suit and a tie and a vest?
A professional man recognized by his garb?
His hat or his suitcase, the make of his car(b)
sxuse me, did not mean to get crazy with words
I miss you all dearly and wish I didnt half to fight Longtooth's Army to book a spot on this g'darng computer..
love reading all the posts thx espeshlly Debwah chef paul dow of courese my dear btrethern showdaddy an his catapulting syrup/pitch analysis
( haha i was wondering if my proportions of timbre to pitch to repertoire would be analaysed)
ok ok gtg.. keep this long slow post alive if you can , friends...I will revisit also as soon as i can.. hey lets beat jack gilders "renaissance Podst from the spring.. oh yeah i love competitions,, i think his thread maxxed out with 212 posts or something............
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Both. Sometimes I'm out of sorts, knackered, or miserable, and playing the music consists of going through the actions, but my heart isn't in it, my fingers don't obey my brain, and I leave feeling dissatisfied and at worst demoralised. Despite 30 years playing the box and practising hard, I'm only a player.
Thank heavens for the human spirit. More often I connect with those around me, I'm playing from the heart, there seems to be no effort to 'think' the music, and what I hear in my head is flowing out of the instrument, and I feel completed. Then I'm OK about calling myself a musician.
Hallo BB, great to hear from you again after all this time!
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
John, I've at last got round to looking at this thread!
In your opening post you say you're a "player" because you've been largely self-taught. I definitely wouldn't agree. "Musicians" ARE self-taught (apart from the initial stages when a teacher shows them technique). A musician thinks things through for himself (read "herself" where appropriate), listens to himself and others, takes advice, and searches out knowledge where necessary - e.g. on this site. Technical level of performing expertise does not define a "musician".
A "player"? Perhaps someone who slavishly does what a teacher says over a long period of time, plays the printed dots to the letter, or does a note-perfect copy of the playing of XYZ on cd, and doesn't think for himself or experiment. The result is obvious in their playing. That's one possibility.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I think I could boil my previous post down to saying that a "musician" is creative in his playing and other aspects of his approach to music. A "player" ...?
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
i tend to call myself a fiddle player, or just a fiddler, if i have to describe myself at all, (or, usually, just entering into somebody's address book "Rog fiddle").
i'm always slightly surprised when somebody describes me as a "musician", and feel a bit presumptious accepting the title...
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Only when asked,"What kind of musican are you?" do I describe myself as a Folk Fiddler. Most people don't have a clue of what that means, giving me the liberty to play any type of music I care to. Keeps listeners on their toes, never knowing exactly what they are going to hear
In my part of the world, West Virginia, you don't have to say very much about your fiddling or muscianship. They usually call anyone that plays and instrument, a musician. People make their own conclusions, good or bad, experienced or new musician, by the way you sound. They know if you play old time or not, same with bluegrass and country style. Most group "Celtic" music, as Appalachian Music, music of the mountains. Not specific by country of orign.
Regardless, the fiddle is an extension of who I am. We are one. The music that comes out of the fiddle is my voice, singing. The playing reflects sorrow, joy, playfulness, and sometimes a little out of tune.
While in Ireland a few years ago, I stayed at a B&B, with a musical family. We had a great time sharing the tunes, talking about the different styles within the surrounding counties and the variations of styles in the USA. The host invited players from around the area to come share music with me. He introduced me to others as a Master. I was confused, wondering why he thought I had a Master's Degree in music. So I pulled him aside and in a whisper I explained that I din't have a degree in music. I studied music, never for a degree, but for my own personal desire.I picked up tunes quickly by ear, as well as reading the dots, what ever it took to learn a tune. He replied, "You don't understand, a Master is a person that plays with all their heart and soul." He never mentioned tone quality, or other mechanics of playing an instrument!
I play music, I play music that I love on my favorite instrument of choice. Musician or player..what ever.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I am not a professional musician, and have little formal training. But I like to play various instruments, and work to do well at it. Like anyone else, I've got a broad repertoire of tunes of varying degrees of dificulty: some I play really well, some I don't play well, some I'm still learning. And like anyone else who plays music, I've always got an ear out for new stuff to learn.
For myself, I take pride in what I do well, without needing either to brag about it or to demean it out of modesty or low self-esteem. Whether it's cooking or drawing or playing music, I let my product speak for itself. If some choose to call me a "musician" or a "cook," I won't argue. If I do a bad job, that,too, will speak for itself. I am a paid professional of none of these things, although I pick up a few bucks here and there for specific gigs where I play with others in my group at a specific function.
If asked what I am, my response may depend upon the context of the question, but I am equally happy with describing myself as a musician (which I may further qualify as not being my profession), or that I play music, on whatever variety of instruments.
I agree with one response above about the dismissal in Western culture of the value of activities or tasks which one volunteers or for which one is not paid. Who cares about the judgment of those obsessed with such labels and values? I play music or draw or cook for the sheer joy of it. For those of us who can do the same and get paid as professionals, so much the better, and power to them!
I know many people whose have taken their amateur/hobby interests to a level where they could easily "qualify" as professionals in that topic - if they took the appropriate tests, they would pass with flying colors. They are serious students of their topic. They've spent as much time researching and studying and practicing at this interest as any professional. This in no way demeans or diminishes any professional who has studied and researched and practiced at his or her profession, has tested, has passed, and has a degree or certificate to prove it, and who now practices as a paid professional. I still want a doctor with a degree and with professional experience to perform any operations on me.
In a similar vein, one of my pet peeves is brand labels that are marketed for their names only - Tommy Hilfiger or Bennetton or whatever. If a garment (in this example) is of fine quality, it doesn't need a huge label all over it to speak quality. That speaks of unprofessionalism and lack of quality to me. And if I want to buy clothing that speaks of me as a professional in my field, the last thing I want to be is a walking advertisement for someone else. (This is only used as a related point to this question of labelling and the definition of professionalism in the original thread question. I do not intend to change the subject from the original "musician vs. player.")
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, I think there are plenty of players who are fine pipers (or whatever) but not particularly good musicians - they can play the notes OK, but they can't communicate the feeling.
So I see a musician as worth aspiring to - and therefore call myself a player.
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hmmmm - a good point made there - not a bad perspective. It still comes back to 1) how you perceive your ability to play, 2) how others perceive your ability to play, and 3) the balance between the two. It's still a conflict of subjective vs. objective, which probably never will have a clear answer.
Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
At last, I've got this far. Thanks, Jeremy.
Re the question. Would you say that there is a difference between a musician and a "player" of music. I feel that I would fall into the latter category, having been mainly self taught and with limited abilities and horizons, ie trad, folk, and other forms of popular music.
How about you? Or do you think that both are one and the same and it's just a case of good V bad or experience V inexperience?
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
According to my dictionary, a musician is someone who is skilled at music or one who's profession is music.
So I guess it's up to you what you call yourself, provided you're prepared to say that you are skilled at what you do.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I only say I play music. Which is tantamount to calling myself a player.
As for the dictionary - hmm - there's a difference between the definition and the usage of a word. The dictionary also gives a definition for tyrant, yet you are unlikely to hear tyrants describing themselves as such.
I think "musician" is something that people call other people.
When I hear anyone call himself/herself a musician, I listen quietly for some time to find out whether this is innocence or pretention.
This is only my view - I do not claim to justify it, only to hold it.
Dave
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Player seems appropriately modest, so that's waht I'd describe myself as. if someone else wants to call one of us a musician, that's fine, i've been called a lot worse.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
what about "muso"?
Been called that before, but that's more a subcultural classification in these parts than an academic one. A generic term, it is, referring to someone who is always broke, hungry, possibly on some sort of cheap drug like weed or box wine, and living with his folks or his girlfriend. Roams around in packs of four (or five if you count the drummer), only wears black and probably has long hair. Will pretend to be a musician for money and/or a pint of lager and two packs of cigarettes.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Q
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I don't really think there is much difference. I mean, you don't have to be a good musician to be a musician, do you? Haven't you ever heard someone called a bad musician before? I think a musician is just someone who plays music. I guess that makes you a player too, but musician is a more specific word.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hey, I looked up musician in our thesaurus, and here are all of the alternate words that came up: music maker, professional musician, performer, executant, interpreter, tunester, artiste, artist, concert artist, virtuoso, virtuosa, maestro, recitalist, soloist, duettist, street musician, busker.
Tunester? Never heard that one before!
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
"Tunester" is probably the closest description to what most of us do here.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Yeah, I like that one!
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Sounds a little irreverent doesn't it. I like it!
Mary
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Antikhntr
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
What about diddler?
*grin*
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Q
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Out of Q's list, I think maestro sounds quite nice. I can just just hear it at a session...
A tune has just finished. Those who want to start a set are looking round to see if anyone else was about to start one. Those who definitely don't want to start a set show a sudden strange fascination with the beer mat in front of them. Suddenly a fiddle player places his instrument under his chin and scrapes an exploratory scratch. This coincides with a flurry of random sounding toots as the flute player just down the table checks that the notes are still in his instrument. Both instruments are hurriedly put down.
"Sorry, maestro, you were starting one..." offers the flute.
"No, no, maestro, I wasn't really sure what I was going to play, you fire away!" replies the fiddler, showing the correct degree of deference to a flute player(!)
I like it...
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
"Sorry, tunester, you were starting one..." offers the flute.
"No, no, tunester, I wasn't really sure what I was going to play, you fire away!" replies the fiddler.
Yep - maestro has the edge over tunester.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Where's Joe? Sureley he should have come in by now and said "Neither - I play the bodhran"
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Interesting. In this part of the world (Texas), I only hear the term "player" used by professional, or professional-level, musicians. Sometimes it's with respect ("He's a player") or awe ("He's a PLAYER") or seeming surprise, which I translate as condescending: "You're a player." Meaning, "You're one of us. I'm top-level, and I see that you're in the same league."
I don't think I've ever heard this term used by, or applied to, a female musician.
Me, I call myself a musician.
Carol
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by carolsviolin
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I guess, it depends where you are, I'd never teach in Ireland - but in OZ if I dont teach then there is no-one... But always a player first. Sessions are *all* that matter..for me I mean!
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by bb
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
You will hear the term "musicianer" among older folks at home (Ireland). Just the word we need, it seems to me.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by LongNote
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
oh F*ck - I got the thread wrong (again) Tunester!!!! Thats me...god what go's thro my head when I'm drunk!!?? ps - HI zeens, helen, conan, em, joyce, danny, Glaubs, will, DOW!!!!, etc
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by bb
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hi bb!
Hi Longnote, you mentioned you were at the Catskills. Were you teaching by any chance? Did I tell *you* that frog joke
Joyce
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by JMH
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Fear scriob scrab, to quote Ó Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin, I think that best describes me especially now at the moment, while my bow needs a re-hair...
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by oraghalm
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I don't see anything wrong with the term "musician". I'm sure part of the reason why people are feeling the need to substitute it for something else is the need for people who play in sessions to think of their music as fun - hence the use of terms like "player" and "tunester" (I think tunester is a bit crap actually - it has echoes of American razzmatazz trumpeters in black and white stripey suits). It's a shame in a way that "musician" has become almost a dirty word in our culture of "modesty". I think rather than being a sign of "modesty", it's probably symptomatic of the trad community's inferiority complex vis-a-vis other genres of music like classical. We have to learn that's it's okay to call ourselves musicians. Just because our music is less "serious" or "high-brow" or even "difficult" than other types of music doesn't mean we somehow aren't worthy of being termed "musicians". I have a theory that this inferiority complex has come about because of some people's attitudes towards the academic and artistic value of "folk musics". I also think that it stems from societal attitudes towards art in all its forms. Music just isn't high on the societal priority list. This is shown by the fact that it's hard to make a living just from playing music. Sure, some of the big names in pop/rock make heaps, but that's only a tiny percentage of the musicians who are out there. Over the centuries these attitudes are bound to have an effect on the culture and attitudes of the trad community.
It's all about this silly view in the West that you can only do something well if you get paid to do it. Like if you say "that guy's a cook" then you immediately assume that he's a professional chef. Doesn't matter that you think the woman who lives next door to you is better than most professional chefs and makes the most amazing Vietnamese spring rolls. People would say that she's a "good cook", but why do people feel so uncomfortable just saying she's a "cook". It's because of our obsession with being paid to do things, and the perceived worthlessness of any activity that is unpaid, regardless of its cultural or artistic worth.
Big gripe of mine, this.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I've alway's believed that a certain level of competency must be attained to earns the title "musican." Just like a certain level of culinary ability is a prerequisite to being a chef as opposed to one who is simply preparing macaroni and cheese in the microwave.
I consider myself a mad practicer, more than anything. I have my own personal criteria as far as what I I feel I need to achieve to consider myself a "musican." Much like the day I knew I was ready to run a professional kitchen and ready to cook at the James Beard house in NYC.
I suppose someone who doesn't play an instrument would think of me as a musican (someone actually told my wife that she "had no idea I was a world class musican....what a laugh!), but anyone with any sort of real competence would surely label me a hack....
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Just what I was thinking, Dow - but you put it into better words than I ever could. Why folk musicians don't own up to being just, I haven't been able to figure out. Take courage, all you! But remember to practise first, then you'll be worthy of the name.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by fiddlefingers
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
agree..this whole cultural thing of labelling qualities and experience according to payment. dow done said it good.
i love the play (fun) on words in "play"ing music..however ta be sure thar's many blokes rhat "work" the music too..
hmm "and what do You do"
"I work music"
hahahahaaha........yes we did. we bottled the brew todasy hurray hurray
caych me if you can im the gingerbread man
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Chef Paul - competency in whose eyes? Your own? Your next door neighbour's? The other people who play in your session? A random person on the street? Competency in what sense? Technique? Memory for tunes? Ability to convey emotion thru' music?...
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I guess if you were really into humbleness, you would call yerself a "noodler" *grin*
Tunester rocks. Is "melodier" an antonym to "backer"?
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Janek
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
definatly diddler
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by ...
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Why do we need labels?? I however do agree with Dow and well put too. I also agree with Chef Paul. I think a level of competance would change the label in a way. Dow you mentioned measurements: Technique, ability to convey emotion etc. I think those measurements would/could change the label, (maybe good, talented etc.) musician would help. Anyone picking up an instrument and playing the bare bones of a tune just isn't at the same level as an experienced player. Doesn't make them bad, just not there yet. I don't think the number of tunes would be an indicator of good, bad or otherwise. I think chef vs cook would have a much easier time of measuring the difference. But then, women were not considered chefs regardless. I would debate that one vigorously! Julia Child is one of the best in my book! What the "H" is a professional kitchen by the way? Sorry, off topic.
As I'm just learning, if I need to label what I am doing, I guess I would label myself as a novice fiddler.
Deb.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Go on, Deb, you know you really want to call yourself Maestro....
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Oh, ok then, I am known as a novice Maestro!
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Maestro's have to start somewhere...
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
i cook with my instrument, and measure out the ingredients, i cup timbre 2tblspoons pitch half a litre of tempo ten grams of repertoire, stir deeply, scrape sides, and pour into pan...
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
As a modist Maestro, I would admit to being bad... "When I'm good, I am very good, but when I'm bad, I'm better".
Veronica, how long does it bake?? when will I know it's done??
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I would think that 2 tablespoons of pitch would probably put paid to any instrument Veronica. Can I use syrup instead?
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Dow (assuming your the sober Dow)
I'm sure at some point in life you came to the realization that some people just get it when it comes to certain things (pick the subject it doesnt matter), and I'm quite sure you are a
smart guy and you know exactly what I'm talking about in the above post. I'd rather not play along with you this time.
Debwah
Since it's way off topic I won't get into it much...it's a nasty hot place where a bunch people in puffy white hats work at a frienzied pace because they love it and it's there chosen field.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Debwah
...a professional kitchen that is.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
So it's the puffy white hats that distinguishes a kitchen to being a professional one. As there are kitchens in Micky D's too. Said with tongue in cheek by the way!
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
"Would you describe yourself as...."
Unless you're a professional musician/player/maestro/tunester, or you're submitting an ad to the personals column, when would you ever find the need to describe yourself as one of the above?
curious in calgary.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Sometimes I think 'player' more than 'musician', in ITM. ITM-ers tends to play the one type of music on several instruments, so is the swing more towards playing abiblty than musicianship? I wonder.
I play different types of music mainly on one instrument, so does that make me more of a musician than a player? And what if I play my main instrument with a high level of skill? Am I then a better player than a musician? It's getting silly now, isn't it? I'm confused already!
It's worth noting that the opinions would differ vastly outside of this site. Many musicians of other genres would look down their noses at Irish or folk, complaining that they are simply playing notes and copying others without having any creative ability - the "musical monkey" syndrome. But then, one could attach that label to classical musicians, even to the likes of Itzhak Perlman and other virtuosi.
Right, this is now doing my head in, so I'm off to play as players do, while playing music as musicians do too!!
Jim
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Me (she says, ducking the point *grin*), I just call myself a fiddler. Why just a fiddler when I play other instruments too? Because I play fiddle well enough to be willing to play it in public. Not true of the other instruments yet.
Or I sometimes call myself a folkie. In this neck of the woods folkies ALL play something even if it's just a shakey egg ;), so that tells people I play an instrument.
Back in my teens I used to say I was a musician, but I found that people automatically assumed that that meant I either made my living from it or was going to when I got older. I think it's partly a matter of what preconceptions both you and the person you're speaking to have in their heads.
For me, 'fiddler' is simpler.
Sara
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by sara g
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Chef Paul, I don't know what you mean by "play along". I thought I was bringing up valid points. My (serious!) point was that once you start deciding terminology according to levels of competency, it means you have to draw the line somewhere between good and bad.
1) My good and bad is gonna be different from your good and bad.
2) Don't we say "good musician" and "bad musician"? Doesn't that mean that we're all musicians, whether we're good at it or not? Why can't someone who plays for 5 hours a day but never gets any better still be a "musician" in the sense that that's what they enjoy in life and spend time doing?
And yes, I was and still am sober, and trying my best not to be slightly offended that you should think my post above was written whilst drunk
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
See? No one takes you seriously anymore. Wolf! Wolf! *snicker*
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
But I *am* see:
:-|
:-j
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Actually, fair enough on the drunk thing. I bristled and became overly defensive when I read that, but now I'm having bad flashbacks to the times when Beebs and I have logged on at some ungodly hour of the morning and posted rubbish. But it's quite easy to tell when I'm doing drunkposting because I don't write more than about a sentence.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
That, may I point out, was one sentence?
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
LOL -- okay, it was three, but I could tell you would have said it as one...
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Okay, taking you seriously: "Don't we say "good musician" and "bad musician"?"
No, I don't, but I rarely call people "musicians", whether good or bad, actually. I guess I'm more likely to say, "oh, he's really good," or "oh, well, he's getting better."
"Play along" because there's been plenty of times when you've stirred the pot just because you could. And you know it. *grin*
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well this time I was trying to engage in serious but friendly debate on semantics. I love what you said about "good" and "better" Zeens. That's the sort of reply I was looking for. You're just so right you make me sick
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Dow
Hiya. You? Get on the board and start posting while in an inbreated stupor...what was I thinking? Probably that you are a man after my own heart...anyway.
My five year old bangs on a bodhran and toots on a whistle, she make music, sure....and I tell her she's a musican, but seriously is she?
As I said i have my own personal criteria, (before I would consider myself a musican) it dosn't have to be your's or anyone elses, and there doesn't have to be line drawn. Afer all it's a slow process...getting hopefully better all the time.
What's my criteria (ITM only here, OK?)you might be prompted to ask for discussions sake. Ok here goes, (at this point if you don't reaaly give a you-know-what you can stop reading, I would stop too!)
1-The ability to play the notes with out screwing up a lot.
2-The ability to keep time. Nice and steady.
3-The ability to ornament the notes. (I'm so psyched about how my rolls are comming along I can't even tell you)
4-The ability to get behind the rhythms.
5-The ability to improvise variations (and even some counter-point but that might be a bit advanced)
6-The ability to hang with people I consider all the above-not blow circles around them just to hold my own.
7-A repriotiore. (spelling?)
Until then I'll just be practicing to be a musican...hopefully I'll get there in the next couple of years.
P
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Dow
I left out the most important criteria.
8-The ability to play well enough that you can put your heart into it.
P
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hmmm, okay, but then I'd worry that once you'd got those 8, you'd still not want to call yourself a musician because you'd have your eye set on the next thing, like doing perfect strings of lightning speed triplets on your banjo, or 9-note crans on your whistle. It's as though there's this barrier you have to cross and once you're on the other side you can breathe a sigh of relief and call yourself a musician. I see what you're saying and everything, but there'll always be technique to work on and new tunes to learn.
I guess in the end it's how you treat yourself and how you want to define yourself. So in that case ... what was I talking about again? Well, the fact that you're striving to get better can only be a good thing. It means you're enjoying it. There's you're even more important point number 9
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
your
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, I'm enjoying it when I'm not tempted to throw the fiddle out into the traffic to get run over by the nearest passing car. I'm trying to change up my style a bit, bowing a la Harmon, and it is TRASHING my playing. I'm going upstairs to scowl at my fiddle.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
But wouldn't that be better said that your hairt, er, heart, goes into it so much that you play well enough? Cos that's an ceol rince is about, no? heart? soul? the ecstasy that comes when the feet thunder and the pipes skirl and the fiddle wails?
meh.
I am a fiddler. not muso, or whatnot. :D that's good enough for me.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I got that with my concertina. I got so angry with it that I ceased to even think about it and left it on the floor of the Indian Home Diner near our session pub. Bit like the stork leaving a baby on your doorstep, hahaha!
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
so.....
there's Sligo style fiddlin, there's clare style... there's sliabh luachra... there's donegal....
there's now harmon style fiddlin?
cor.
soon, in twenty years us youngun's here will be hearin zbout that. ;-P
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
LOL -- yeah, that's the Helena Handbasket style of fiddling...
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, we all might know what that was, if there was a *sample of it on the Mighty Craic CD* (he said, raising his voice and looking pointedly in Will's direction)
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Paul, good list. (Repertoire, btw, since you asked. *friendly grin*) But I think the crux of the matter would be the next item:
9-Approaching what you call yourself with the same attitude/philosophy/choose-your-term you bring to the music. I could go all Lewis Carroll here and ask who's the master, us ITM geeks or the word, but that would probably come across wrong and start flames and I'm not in the mood to run for the extinguisher tonight. Better to quote someone more recent and more laid back.
It's all in your mind.
And unless you deliberately use a word you know another person finds inflammatory, you're not too very responsible for how other people interpret what you call yourself. (If there's one thing Asperger's has taught me, it's that.) Because it's all in their minds too, and how many of us can read minds?
Sara
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by sara g
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
hehehehe...somewhere, I have a tape of Will trying to record some stuff for me after an entire three day weekend of non-stop playing. His arm was cramping up, he was forgetting tunes (did I mention we kept staying up late and drinking?), and, in general, swearing was the most prominent feature of his "style" at that point. I'm thinking seriously of putting it on the disc. *grin*
All right. I'm going upstairs to work on my...groan...triplets.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Cross-postedwith Dow's #9. OK, call mine #10, then, because Dow's is a good addition to the list.
Sara
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by sara g
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Me swearing would be an interesting track--I couldn't get through my own tune, let alone, what was it, some jigs we were trying to play together? My hands were shot. Very much hell in a handbasket fiddling.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Zina, I'll never speak again unless you put that on the disc
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hahaha I meant *to you*.
Bet you wish I meant what I said the 1st time LOL
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
In this part of the World we call ourselves musicianers, and that is what we are.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
My, how my thread has grown! I'm still none the wiser, though.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
a musician playing traditional music
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by corncrake
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
oh - i love these long slow threads..
gotta scroll back to remember what's said
Harmon style fiddlin. now there's a truth
I learned it in th flesh I have the proof
We all love to talk and we all love to play
We all love to cook in our various ways
We want to be friends, and we hate to offend
And our written intentions aren't always discerned
but: professional Baker or Piper or Nurse
We all know that life without music is worse
Than life with the charm of the wit thatwe try
To get good at, or better and better one day
Good. What is GOOd? what is better? What best?
Music's the wit and the passport to fun
How can you make measure to anything less?
A man with a suit and a tie and a vest?
A professional man recognized by his garb?
His hat or his suitcase, the make of his car(b)
sxuse me, did not mean to get crazy with words
I miss you all dearly and wish I didnt half to fight Longtooth's Army to book a spot on this g'darng computer..
love reading all the posts thx espeshlly Debwah chef paul dow of courese my dear btrethern showdaddy an his catapulting syrup/pitch analysis
( haha i was wondering if my proportions of timbre to pitch to repertoire would be analaysed)
ok ok gtg.. keep this long slow post alive if you can , friends...I will revisit also as soon as i can.. hey lets beat jack gilders "renaissance Podst from the spring.. oh yeah i love competitions,, i think his thread maxxed out with 212 posts or something............
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Both. Sometimes I'm out of sorts, knackered, or miserable, and playing the music consists of going through the actions, but my heart isn't in it, my fingers don't obey my brain, and I leave feeling dissatisfied and at worst demoralised. Despite 30 years playing the box and practising hard, I'm only a player.
Thank heavens for the human spirit. More often I connect with those around me, I'm playing from the heart, there seems to be no effort to 'think' the music, and what I hear in my head is flowing out of the instrument, and I feel completed. Then I'm OK about calling myself a musician.
Hallo BB, great to hear from you again after all this time!
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by petemay
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
John, I've at last got round to looking at this thread!
In your opening post you say you're a "player" because you've been largely self-taught. I definitely wouldn't agree. "Musicians" ARE self-taught (apart from the initial stages when a teacher shows them technique). A musician thinks things through for himself (read "herself" where appropriate), listens to himself and others, takes advice, and searches out knowledge where necessary - e.g. on this site. Technical level of performing expertise does not define a "musician".
A "player"? Perhaps someone who slavishly does what a teacher says over a long period of time, plays the printed dots to the letter, or does a note-perfect copy of the playing of XYZ on cd, and doesn't think for himself or experiment. The result is obvious in their playing. That's one possibility.
Trevor
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I think I could boil my previous post down to saying that a "musician" is creative in his playing and other aspects of his approach to music. A "player" ...?
Trevor
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
i tend to call myself a fiddle player, or just a fiddler, if i have to describe myself at all, (or, usually, just entering into somebody's address book "Rog fiddle").
i'm always slightly surprised when somebody describes me as a "musician", and feel a bit presumptious accepting the title...
# Posted on August 9th 2004 by rog
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Only when asked,"What kind of musican are you?" do I describe myself as a Folk Fiddler. Most people don't have a clue of what that means, giving me the liberty to play any type of music I care to. Keeps listeners on their toes, never knowing exactly what they are going to hear
In my part of the world, West Virginia, you don't have to say very much about your fiddling or muscianship. They usually call anyone that plays and instrument, a musician. People make their own conclusions, good or bad, experienced or new musician, by the way you sound. They know if you play old time or not, same with bluegrass and country style. Most group "Celtic" music, as Appalachian Music, music of the mountains. Not specific by country of orign.
Regardless, the fiddle is an extension of who I am. We are one. The music that comes out of the fiddle is my voice, singing. The playing reflects sorrow, joy, playfulness, and sometimes a little out of tune.
While in Ireland a few years ago, I stayed at a B&B, with a musical family. We had a great time sharing the tunes, talking about the different styles within the surrounding counties and the variations of styles in the USA. The host invited players from around the area to come share music with me. He introduced me to others as a Master. I was confused, wondering why he thought I had a Master's Degree in music. So I pulled him aside and in a whisper I explained that I din't have a degree in music. I studied music, never for a degree, but for my own personal desire.I picked up tunes quickly by ear, as well as reading the dots, what ever it took to learn a tune. He replied, "You don't understand, a Master is a person that plays with all their heart and soul." He never mentioned tone quality, or other mechanics of playing an instrument!
I play music, I play music that I love on my favorite instrument of choice. Musician or player..what ever.
# Posted on August 9th 2004 by shar
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
I am not a professional musician, and have little formal training. But I like to play various instruments, and work to do well at it. Like anyone else, I've got a broad repertoire of tunes of varying degrees of dificulty: some I play really well, some I don't play well, some I'm still learning. And like anyone else who plays music, I've always got an ear out for new stuff to learn.
For myself, I take pride in what I do well, without needing either to brag about it or to demean it out of modesty or low self-esteem. Whether it's cooking or drawing or playing music, I let my product speak for itself. If some choose to call me a "musician" or a "cook," I won't argue. If I do a bad job, that,too, will speak for itself. I am a paid professional of none of these things, although I pick up a few bucks here and there for specific gigs where I play with others in my group at a specific function.
If asked what I am, my response may depend upon the context of the question, but I am equally happy with describing myself as a musician (which I may further qualify as not being my profession), or that I play music, on whatever variety of instruments.
I agree with one response above about the dismissal in Western culture of the value of activities or tasks which one volunteers or for which one is not paid. Who cares about the judgment of those obsessed with such labels and values? I play music or draw or cook for the sheer joy of it. For those of us who can do the same and get paid as professionals, so much the better, and power to them!
I know many people whose have taken their amateur/hobby interests to a level where they could easily "qualify" as professionals in that topic - if they took the appropriate tests, they would pass with flying colors. They are serious students of their topic. They've spent as much time researching and studying and practicing at this interest as any professional. This in no way demeans or diminishes any professional who has studied and researched and practiced at his or her profession, has tested, has passed, and has a degree or certificate to prove it, and who now practices as a paid professional. I still want a doctor with a degree and with professional experience to perform any operations on me.
In a similar vein, one of my pet peeves is brand labels that are marketed for their names only - Tommy Hilfiger or Bennetton or whatever. If a garment (in this example) is of fine quality, it doesn't need a huge label all over it to speak quality. That speaks of unprofessionalism and lack of quality to me. And if I want to buy clothing that speaks of me as a professional in my field, the last thing I want to be is a walking advertisement for someone else. (This is only used as a related point to this question of labelling and the definition of professionalism in the original thread question. I do not intend to change the subject from the original "musician vs. player.")
# Posted on August 9th 2004 by Dwatted Wabbit
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Well, I think there are plenty of players who are fine pipers (or whatever) but not particularly good musicians - they can play the notes OK, but they can't communicate the feeling.
So I see a musician as worth aspiring to - and therefore call myself a player.
# Posted on August 11th 2004 by Alister
Re: Would you describe yourself as a musician or a player?
Hmmmm - a good point made there - not a bad perspective. It still comes back to 1) how you perceive your ability to play, 2) how others perceive your ability to play, and 3) the balance between the two. It's still a conflict of subjective vs. objective, which probably never will have a clear answer.
# Posted on August 18th 2004 by Dwatted Wabbit